We torture prisoners, Iran releases them after diplomacy

Hmmmm, I'm so glad that we are so much more "civilized" than all of those brown "savages". Iran detains 15 British soldiers near their territorial waters (on inside, depending on the map). We buy prisoners/ I mean, "enemy combatants" from Afghanistan and Iraq. Video comes out from Tehran of the prisoners being fed in which they also seem to be bruise and "torture free". Video slips out from one of our illegal prison camps of us stacking prisoners into naked pyramids, shoving light sticks up their bums, and other types of demeaning torture.

We are the bad guys. I am so ashamed.

Ahmadinejad has shown more wisdom and diplomacy than either Blair or that POS inhabiting our White House. Nice move.

Abducting and holding captive people for no reason.

there is doubt about the "no reason" claim. It appears that they may have been in/near Iranian waters.

England is the only one who came out of this deserving any type of respect.

The first few days after their capture, Tony Blair was seemingly channeling "The Decider" and the Brit govt crones showed a BOGUS map to make their case albeit all parties agree that this area is in DISPUTED waters.

Nope, no one comes out looking good, but thank GOD, by using patience and diplomacy, these Sailors and Marines will come home safe. :thumbsup:

I didn't know that. I thought it was like "We were at (X0, Y0)" - "No, you were at (X1, Y1)!". Makes our friend's "rah rah go England fuck the ragheads" position even MORE unsustainable! Links?

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/03/24/iran.uk.history.ap/index.html

"Iranians and Iraqis have been squabbling over the waterway since before the creation of modern Iran and Iraq."

Why should it be all Kudos for England? What have they done besides trespass into "questioned" waters, and then claiming they haven't?

What England did brilliantly was use diplomatic pressure to play along with Irans circus entertainment.

You don't find it odd that Iran changed the coords they said it happened at once they realized the first ones they provided said they were in Iraqi waters?

I'm just surprised anyone is buying into ahmajinedads game.

it is unclear at this point whether there was a reason or not, and I am not speaking of widom and diplomacy in a vacuum - only as it comopares to those qualities as displayed by blair and the shrub.

Gimme a break.

Gary Powers situation is nothing like this one.

:eyes:

to the conversation?

You just assumed the Caucasian side of this particular dispute was right without any further examination.

Me, I think it's 50-50.

Please consider peeling off an ultra-nationalistic mask and view the evidence from a TRULY objective viewpoint?

Since our M$M is a puppet of the Military Industrial Complex AND we can't trust Iran either, we, The People, will probably NEVER know exactly what happened. :shrug:

I'm not letting my hatred of Bush cloud what happened in this situation.

since I am a practicing (not that great at it but persevere) Catholic, I'll admit to having to pray for the strength NOT to despise him as that is wasted energy and non-productive beyond any spiritual laws of my faith.

No, I know from the stories of my older brothers who were pre-teens during this time, my father, an highly skilled US Army Engineering officer was assigned to a contingent group in Tehran, Iran.

As brutal as the Iranian government is now, I can assert with veracity that it is LESS BRUTAL rule than they had to endure under the UK and USA's Puppet - The Shah of Iran. :grr: I have to reflect much more fervently when I focus on "the Shah" - so as not to despise this man's memory because he was beyond cruel ... IMO, crossing into the dark side. :scared:

Since the revolution of 1979, the Iranians have been in charge. It is NOT a Democracy but it is an Iranian Government with moderate players that are increasing their power. IMO, this is not the time to load "the people" with more harsh sanctions but to give the "up and coming more secular moderates" a chance to increase their power through future elections.

No, Bush is a dimwit and incompetent but the "true evil" within The Unitary Executive resides in one each, Vice President, Cheney. ;)

My friend Pete wonders why you felt the need to insert a completely out-of-place statement of "hatred for Bush" in the conversation.

CPD, sometime your spideysense is on too much of a hair trigger.

I thought it was sufficiently clear that the analogy referred to that aspect, and not to the planned actions of the alleged trespassers.

near Yekaterinburg, it didn't seem at all clear to me. How did the US claim he wasn't trespassing there?

The U.S. originally claimed that Gary Power's U2 spy plane was conducting weather research over the arctic when the Soviets shot him down.

Just like how Britain lied that their troops were in Iraqi waters, and finally confessed this morning that they were in Iranian territory after they couldn't lie anymore.

Just like they did in 2004.

Link? Or just BS?

:rofl:

Such a brilliant statement.

On the other hand, we have pathetic, lame, transparent attempts at street cred buildup.

The two do NOT match well.

Given that little place called Guantanamo. Not to mention holding an entire country captive for no reason.

But I agree with you. Widson and diplomacy is not abducting and holding captive people for no reason. Good thing then that they are being released. Too bad that we cannot say the same for all the innocent people we hold in Guantanamo.

:eyes:

If the captives had been Iranians themselves (or simply non-Europeans) there'd be no media to play to, no incentive to hold back. It's not that the Iranians don't habitually treat people very poorly. It's that they at least have the presence of mind to hold back for show once in a while to upstage the US.

It's sad that they can, and that they just did.

merely by NOT torturing prisoners.

after we illegally seized their diplomats invited by Iraq to meet with them?

What diplomats did we illegally seize that were invited by Iraq?

What does that have to do with Iran taking Brittish prisoners?

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/186024.php

Coalition forces conducted routine security operations in northern Iraq and took six individuals into custody suspected of being closely tied to activities targeting Iraqi and Coalition forces on Jan. 11.

This operation was part of an ongoing effort by Coalition forces targeting individuals involved in activities aimed at the killing of Iraqi citizens and Coalition forces.

WaPo:

A man who lives next to the consulate, Sardar Hassan Mohammed, 34, said he saw what he believed to be U.S. forces surrounding the building with their vehicles before entering it. Mohammed said at least five people were taken.

An official with the Kurdish Democratic Party, who declined to give his name, said the U.S. troops confiscated belongings inside the consulate in addition to arresting people inside.

the botched job of trying to rendition the Iranian ambassador who was visiting at the invitation of the Iraqi President.

THAT caused yet another bruhaha. Boy Bush is getting some very bad advise. My money is on Darth Cheney and Rove.

However, I read nothing about the U.S. illegally capturing invited diplomats.

Am I missing something? And again, how does this justify what Iran did to England?

unharmed. They certainly are not "savages", but please, before you go glorifying the Iranian government, give a thought to Zahra Kazemi- among others. Who was she, you ask?

Iranian-Canadian photojournalist Zahra Kazemi died in Iranian custody on July 11, 2003, almost three weeks after she was arrested for taking pictures outside a prison during a student protest in Tehran.

<snip>

Later, the Iranian government would charge an Iranian security agent in Kazemi's death. He was acquitted of a charge of "quasi-intentional murder. In July 2004, Iran's judiciary said the head injuries that -killed Kazemi were the result of an "accident."

The case stayed under the radar screens of most Canadians until March 31, 2005, and the stunning revelations of Shahram Azam, a former staff physician in Iran's Defence Ministry. He said he examined Kazemi in hospital, four days after her arrest.

Azam said Kazemi showed obvious signs of torture, including:
-Evidence of a very brutal rape.
-A skull fracture, two broken fingers, missing fingernails, a crushed big toe and a broken nose.
-Severe abdominal bruising, swelling behind the head and a bruised shoulder.
-Deep scratches on the neck and evidence of flogging on the legs.

Read more here:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/kazemi/

I was saying that we like to portray ourselves as the "police officer" of the world, but with two instances and accompanying media releases showing torture on one side and prisoners eating on the other, we really need to work to rehabilitate our world view.

More people see us now as the enemy of the world. They see us as the Christo-fascist bully of the planet. Our official actions are not helping our cause. Bush has hurt our world opinion, and we need to change it or we will have daily car bombs and episodes of stone throwing in our streets. We need to get back to being the "good guys" not the "war monkeys".

come off better in this than the Americans do, and that what we've done is awful. Not that we ever were "the good guys", but we certainly need to change our policies and treatment of prisoners. It's just that it's important to remember that despite image, the Iranian gov't is no better than ours when it comes to civil rights, and treatment of prisoners, and in many cases, they're worse.

And whatever you are trying to expose with the Canadian seems misguided at best. Look, the PNAC Neocons are running a real life Concentration Camp in Cuba, and nothing you post here can really hold a candle to that elephant in the room. Multiply your post times 400 and over five years -- and that is just for starters.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Today we confirmed that the soldiers had indeed penetrated Iranian territory.

What was it you said to somebody else a couple of days ago? "I look forward to mocking you?"

heh

hehheheheh

HAHAHAHA!

:spray:

:rofl:

I think you also owe apologies to Iran, for alledging they extracted false confessions out of these prisoners.

not our own little Faux news commentator.:rofl:

We know how bad the Iranian regime is, but they've completely upstaged us here. The contrast between how we treat foreign captives and how they do is stark.

More shame brought to the USA courtesy the Bush** administration.

I'm glad Iran let them go but I'm not ready to glorify Iranian leaders and their treatment of people. However, they are certainly smarter than the US in the way they carry out their terrorism - fewer fingerprints left behind.

they are run by a crazed Ayotollah (sp). What I was getting at it is, in this day of the soundbite, they have upstaged us and made us look like the bad guy. I am not an anti-American, Iranian apologist, but they played this round of the "five minute t.v. game" better than we did.

I simply put two images side by side. 1. The pictures of us torturing our prisoners. 2. Them releasing their prisoners a couple of days before Easter.

If we want global support for anything, we need to work on our public image.

I have lived there (Tehran) as a child of an Active Duty Engineer under The Shah.

The Iranian government is brutal, but IMO, less vicious than under the rule of our Puppet THUG, The Shah. He had secret police that would make some of the SS Nazis look like boy scouts. Every where we went we viewed people with fingers and hands cut off.

No, I'm thankful and blessed to be a United States Citizen and honored to have served my country as in Army Intelligence. But that does not give me, or anyone else self-righteous drive TO CONDEMN the rule of another sovereign country. Further, we have zero right to *specifically* JUDGE the governments of other sovereign countries, nor should we feel, in any way, superior. ESPECIALLY, not while GITMO is still open for business. :thumbsdown:

No, I would not want to be a girl or woman living in Iran, but because I have lived there, the people of this Country are special to me. Remember, the people, like you and me, are NOT The Government.

The more we SLAM the their present government and IF we bomb, you can bet the farm that *the right wing* of this theological government will take over for at least another decade. IMO, we should have faith in the Iranian people to change their government within the system OR at least do not interfere with increasing sanctions and bombs, i.e., that will only hurt the average Iranian NOT their government.

ON EDIT: Excuse me, I meant to address this as a reply to post #10. :blush:

In the OP you said we ARE the bad guys.

Above you said we LOOK like the bad guys. Which is it?

And we deserve that stigma. Gitmo made sure of that for a long time to come. And prosecuting a few small fish in the food chain did nothing to change the worlds sentiment. But just because we're "the bad guys" doesn't make Iran the good guys, or even less bad than us. In this incident they most definitely out maneuvered the US. This whole incident was theirs to control from the beginning. They rode the pony for all she was worth and got rid of her before she became a liability. A concept our own government doesn't seem to understand.

Last time I checked we weren't convicting and sentencing gay men to death, hanging them from cranes. Nor do we stone rape victims to death. How about those equal rights for women they have? Makes you want to move there right? There are lots of issues we need to fix here in the US but that doesn't all of a sudden make Iran the center of all that is good and humane.

:puke:

based on two pictures.

Where did I say that they were awesome?
Where did I say that I want to move there?
Where did I say that Iran was the center of everything good?

NIGHTWATCHER..A LOT OF PEOPLE HERE DON'T ACTUALLY BOTHER TO READ POSTS..THEY TAKE ONE SENTENCE OR WHAT THEY THINK YOUR POST SAYS AND RUN WITH IT JUST LIKE RIGHT WINGERS, It has happened to me before. I agree with you. Iran is no paradise, any idiot knows that, but they have won this round in world opinion and propaganda. No doubt they will be showing images of our torture of "hostages" while they feed and release them. Of course they would never treat a non-European this well..but that's not what people will see on TV. Iran won this round..hopefully Britian or Iran don't try to go for round 2.

the battlefield, i.e., goat farmers, Kabul cab drivers.

These acts are done IN OUR NAME. We can't stop a half-witted dictator who will probably mini-nuke the shit out of all of Iran's nuclear sites and thereby kill a scores of innocent Iranians in addition to the THOUSANDS of innocent Afghanistan and Iraqi citizens smart bombed to date. :grr:

Yes, we, the mighty and FREE (Run by the needs of the Military Industrial complex) sure have the right to be arrogant and preachy. :sarcasm:

:eyes:

Nice.

If you think differently.. :shrug:

We obviously feel very, very differently on this issue.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2790455#2790547

Whether you want to admit it or not.

Just because you think I do, doesn't make it so.

It makes us sink to that same disgusting level.

Although you want to bring strawmen into the mix.

The point that you fail to grasp is this:

EVEN A REGIME LIKE IRAN CAN TREAT PRISONERS BETTER THAN THE SO-CALLED BEACON OF FREEDOM AND HUMAN RIGHTS THAT USED TO BE THE UNITED STATES.

Your slamming Iran just reinforces the OP's point about HOW FAR THE US HAS FALLEN.

Becaused they were filmed making statements about how wonderful Iran is and how Iran is so much better then Britian/US? Because they were given suits? This was all a big PR move on the part of the Iranians. They do rape, torture and kill prisoners.

If the OP was to simply say the Iranians did a better PR job then I definitely agree. On the other hand anyone with any sense could see the statements were bogus.

Why is this hard to understand????????????????

the US wasn't a party in this? This is between Iran and Britain, so bringing the US into it for the sole purpose of saying how nice and sweet Iranian captors are is a stark raving crock of shite.

This dick-measuring contest is idiotic on so many levels. They're better than us, we're better than them, blah blah. Enough of this crap!

All of the sabre-rattling, kidnapping, posturing bullshit on all sides has to stop!

The point is that a country with known human rights abuses has from all outward signs treated their prisoners better than America, a country that is supposed to hold the highest standards.

Why is this so hard to grasp????

IM REALLY GETTING PISSED NOW.

GOOD BYE!

:grr:

Wrong is wrong. No matter who does it. What's not to get? But whatever, have fun with your make-out session with Iran's PR department.

We have lost the war of moral and ethical behavior and lost our favorable world opinion. Now any country can appear saner, more civilized and morally superior to the United States of America, simply by NOT torturing prisoners. This will only promote Iran's position and makes the US look like savages. The crazy king has given away our country's self respect.

next to us.

This administration ought to be tried for treason for their destruction of our international reputation alone.

The G.O.P. is criminal -- through and through.

"Organ failure" (including fingernails, etc.) is not a limitation recognized by the Iranians.

Then again, our friends in the region do the same thing, which is why rendition is wrong.

recognizing that is tantamount to an admission that you are a war loving, torture supporting, koolaid drinking neocon.

THEY, the people of Iran are no better or worse than you or I. :(

If you truly want the Iranian Government to act more humanely, then we should support the moderates to change their government from within. However, after GITMO and other atrocities (see Rendition), we are hypocrites to claim OUR PRESENT government doesn't torture AS MUCH.

As long as GITMO remains open, we can NOT claim a moral high ground here.

WE TORTURE TOO and TORTURE is WRONG.

I'm tired of the comparisons between the two countries, all of this crap is unacceptable.

The hypocrisy is breathtaking when some claim that Iran shouldn't have breached the Geneva Conventions and showed the "hostages" (poor description, imo) on television when the Attorney General of the US has proclaimed those same Conventions as "quaint" and has re-written the definition of "torture" so the US can torture prisoners or should I say "hostages".

I am glad the British soldiers are being released, I also want the Iranian diplomats released. I want the US government to restore the US Constitution instead of ripping it to shreds so I can feel that my "neighbour" does, indeed, share my beliefs.

Iran is no shining example nor model country to be admired but, to be honest, what country is? I certainly cannot claim Canada is such, we have our own failures, to wit, when our government did NOT fight to free Mahar Arar and take a strong stand against the US for their "rendition" of a Canadian citizen to Syria to be tortured.

It is best, imo, to clean up one's own backyard before demanding others do so.

saying they were sorry, and condemning the iraq situation and asking for withdrawl, all which they were blatantly forced to do by the iranian government, I'd say they didn't exactly take the high road.

when a country like Iran comes out looking much better than the US. This is what the neo-cons have done to America.

I am very happy these Brits have been released and I really believe this takes some of the wind out of Bushie's sails on the war they want to start with Iran.

Julie

Who knows anymore. As I have thought from the start, this is a case of two expert propaganda machines fighting each other, with the "people" on all sides left behind scratching their heads wondering what the hell the truth is. Boys with their toys making noise. Dangerous toys. With no parents or authority in sight.