I am so damn sick of some men and of religious zealots making

decisions for women. Now another person has been killed because he performed abortions. Guys, particularly, give it the hell up. You have no business making decisions for women. You do nothing more than have your jollies one night and the woman suffers or rejoices if the result is pregnancy.

You do not have to go through the months of discomfort and agony. You do are not the one required to care for an infant who was not the result of a hopefully planned pregnancy. Leave the decisions to the woman who bares the responsibility with her body. I may be old but I can relate to the agony of decisions made for having a child. Leave us the hell alone to decide what is best for us and keep it in your pants if you think your opinion should affect everyone else.

If you bore the children, I would bet everything I own that your opinion would be a bit different.

LET WOMEN DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES!

Your warped ideology is not rule of law for everyone.

Leave it. Roe V Wade stands and should never be changed. Men do not become pregnant, men should not decide. Men should not kill because they think their opinion applies to everyone and they must assert their warped opinion on someone who is doing what is legally acceptable.

To whoever shot the doctor today, on his way to church, no less, GO TO HELL.

Edited to make it read "some" men. I know that many men support a womans right to choose. I was so angry at the recent murder of the doctor that a few words did not make it into my post. Thanks to all who support free choice.

that decision for any woman.

I could not know what a woman goes through to make the decision and therefore am forbidden to make judgment.

I fully support the womans right to make her own decision and detest those who think they have the right to interfere.

Choice

I'm not sure who decided that. Oh well. So much for a representative democracy.

in that I don't feel I have any right to make that choice for any woman other than me.

It's that important, it's that personal.

Thank you for getting it.

I can never know what it's like to be pregnant, plus I will never be a father (by choice).

I noticed years ago that when the Detroit Free Press would run an article or editorial about abortion, there would be a flood of letters to the editor. I used to count the anti-abortion letters, and in every case the majority (sometimes overwhelming majority) were from men.

This was completely unscientific, but it was an eye-opening observation.

Don't you know that women also pay child support?

You're funny. Most men DON'T pay child support so don't even fucking start with this shit.

Someone has to support children, and if it's not their parents, it's the taxpayers. Basically, the guy we're responding to thinks that men should be able father children all over the place and stick the community with the bill.

Have a vasectomy or don't have sex. Your choice.

When it's a fetus residing in my uterus my bodily soveriegnty prevails. After the child is born it is a seperate human being deserving of support from both parents. Mandatory child support will never end because when there is no child support custodial parents use more government services. To suggest that men should have a "choice" as regards child support is really to say "hey guys, impregnate as many women as you want and the taxpayers will pick up the tab!" Fuck that shit.

Got it.

Outside of rape or incest, both parties made an equal choice to engage in sex.

The argument that one made a choice and the other didn't is invalid.

You're not going to pawn off your irresponsibility on taxpayers if you have the ability to support your child. And guess what, the same thing goes for mothers. Do you honestly think that women aren't expected to support their children too?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5747763

I'd really like to read your thoughts on guys like Desmond Hatchett and to see you justify giving men the "choice" to opt out of child support.

who have a uterus.

There are two INDIVIDUAL choices to have sex. Both parties MUST agree--it's not one choice made by two people, but TWO choices made by two people, and each is independent of the other and can be changed at ANY time--including right in the middle of sex. The man's "choice" in abortion comes at EXACTLY that moment, and then never again. Sorry that simple human biology doesn't allow any other choice for the male, but that's just how it is. Laws can't change biology, no matter how unfair it might be.

If you aren't prepared for the fact that, even with birth control, there's a chance you could impregnate someone, then either get a vasectomy, have sex that doesn't involve vaginal intercourse, or spend some quality time with your fantasies and a bottle of conditioner in the shower instead of having sex. Your DNA has left you no other options than those. When the baby is already there, the time for a man to have a "choice" is LONG past. At that point, the baby is quite literally a part of the mother's body, and therefore completely under HER control.

You also seem to be under the impression that having an abortion, even a very early one, is an easy-breezy thing that's no big deal. It's not. Pregnancy and childbirth are more dangerous than abortion overall, but abortion is still incredibly painful, emotionally traumatic, and carries its own set of health risks. It's not like getting a cut stitched up, where you're in and out. Explain to me why you seem to think that a woman should be forced by circumstances to undergo a painful and risky medical procedure in order to avoid having a baby that the father doesn't want, and refuses to help pay for. You might not like child support, but child support isn't a direct threat to your very life. Abortion and pregnancy/childbirth both ARE, just like any other surgical procedure. There's a big-ass magnitude of difference between the inconvenience of child support and the life-at-stake risks of abortion and childbirth. The woman's choice--and her consequences--are a HELL of a lot more urgent and dire than yours are. Tell me, at exactly WHAT point does the average, healthy male EVER risk his very life in order to procreate? How can you even see a fair and equal parallel when the risks are so obviously unequal? You equating the risk of losing mere MONEY to the woman's risk of losing her very LIFE is just nauseating.

One final point. If we "don't make men pay child support" directly, they'll pay it anyway via the tax increases required to care for all of these fatherless kids. When a child is born, it WILL be cared for--the only question is whether that care comes from your pocket via the anonymous government, leaving you completely out of having a relationship with the kid, or whether it comes from your pocket along with a loving relationship. Since the vast majority of men are decent people who want to love and care for their children, I hardly think that we're going to re-write the laws of society just to please YOUR selfishness. You don't speak for "men"--you speak for yourself alone.

These guys who blather about how men should have a "choice" over child support act as though the children that fathers would no longer have to support would be cared for by fairies.

That was great. Really great.

Isn't that reasonable? But how many men choose to raise the kid?

Whoever's the custodial parent should get child support.

you dont want to pay for child you create, dont have one. not a tough one

rw also suggest murderers should be sent to jail. bet a lot on the left would agree.

just cause there are issues the rw spew does not mean we fore go thinking just to oppose.

The "Familial relationship" determination of a court supersedes any paternity.

The bottom line ot this argument is that we have to completely reassess the whole of family law and parental rights and responsibilities to reflect the realities of the 21st century. Our current system is based on the 19th century and it has no relevance.

for a child he helped create cause he didnt have a vote in abortion as a fetus.

dont 'force" a man to pay? a MAN should not have to be forced. what kind of person would be so irresponsible as to procreate and then walk away from that responsibility?

pathetic

the gentlemen can always abstain or prevent any risk of creating a child he doesn't want to pay for, can't he?

How many of those unwanted kids are caused by *I can't FEEL anything with a condom* complaints?

It's as easy as that, Bucko. Of course, I'm sure that your DNA is so mindbogglingly amazing that some woman can't wait to give birth to your little angel, but if you don't want to pay child support, DON'T GET ANYONE PREGNANT.

You might also be sure to tell any woman you plan on being intimate with that you have a problem with child support. I'm sure the whole "pregnancy prevention" thing will be moot after that. :woohoo:

:spray:

Funny but no, I just couldn't think of a good username so I just went with anonymous.

Not too difficult.

:fistbump:

:silly:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5754078

This man helped women who had to choose between trying to give birth and dying. And now, his patients probably don't have that choice at all.

Yep, tired of fanatics who think they get to control reproductive lives of women, and all other facets of their lives too.

ENOUGH.

facing death by labor.

But to the "pro-life" people, that's more acceptable than a sad, but necessary abortion.

which is why I said above that each woman is qualified to make that decision for exactly one person - herself.

A woman, pro-choice, anti-choice, whatever - doesn't get to make that decision for anyone but herself. Period.

He said that I "trapped him into marriage".

Strangely enough, we were married for over six months before I got pregnant. He didn't want the expense, although he had health insurance and a good job, and we had a house. He was just selfish. All he saw was dollar signs. Expected me to throw away a baby. Just couldn't understand why I insisted on going to the Medical Center -- thought I was supposed to drop a baby in a field and get up and walk like some peasant.

I'm pro-choice and I said "HELL NO. If you don't like it, you can leave".

Then he got custody of the kid and made me, the mother, pay child support for 15 years. He had the good job for decades, not me.

It's all about narcissism and control. The world revolves around him.

I hope your child turned out okay.

She's beautiful, bright and 23 years old.

I wanted to have a child and he wasn't gonna stop me.

I told him how millions of couples would give everything they own to have a healthy normal child.

He is narcissistic and negative as hell.

Or as my dad said, "He threw away a beautiful house, a beautiful wife and a beautiful daughter".

don't realize that many pregnancies have to end late term....the fetus is dead, terribly deformed, etc.

Women are faced with the question, 'Can I take care of a child that will require round the clock care and is doomed to a short, vegetative life?' Every woman has the right to answer that question herself..not the State, not some religious nut, nor anyone else.

Dear George Tiller....please rest in peace and thank you for helping so many women with the decisions they made.

The Hypocrisy of these 'Christians' is exposed yet again.

and was also a Christian. He said the first abortion he did was on a ten year old girl who was a victim of incest and the pregnancy/delivery might have killed her. He was a family physician in a rural area at the time. He said, if I didn't save her life, who would? He spent his whole career supporting choice and providing it.

then none of these toy issues would even be considered. :(

Nobody would be a, as Palin put it, "burden"...

Everybody would truly be loved and wanted. In this world.

Many women don't support your opinion, however, and would like to tell you and me what to do with our bodies as well.

at white people who protested apartheid at South African embassies, or of straight people who attend gay pride parades?

I know this is a tough day for a lot of people, but calling for shutting down peaceful, Constitutionally-protected protest simply because of the gender or religion of a protestor is wrong.

The absurd ascription of anti-choice enmity to a gender is particularly noxious as Dr. Tiller's body is still warm.

:puke:

point taken.

though i am not on the thread arguing the op. my issues were other.

i happen to think it is a 50/50 thing seeing how takes two though i know that is not the consensus and i certainly understand an opposing argument.

So that cancels it out IMO.

But do enjoy your poutrage. :eyes:

that stood on the side of women. it is to valuable, important and i appreciate it too much.

this man knew that every single day he could lose his life and his conviction was so strong for the womans right to chose, and the area he lives.

I was making fun of TahitiNut's poutrage.

Your fact "filtration" is noteworthy. :eyes:

Which would not be noteworthy. :eyes:

Because you certainly are angry and hostile this evening. Calm down.

I'm not religious, but I am a white male - and if there's one type of person I'm always suspicious of until I get to know them, it's white males.

Actually, I feel exactly the way you put it in this topic: I don't believe I have the right to officially rule on abortion because I can't get pregnant. At this time if my girlfriend got pregnant, I wouldn't want her to have it. She knows that. But I wouldn't make the decision for her. I would support her whatever she decided. But it's also not a coincidence that I entered into a relationship with someone who believes in choice for women.

...and they always will.

Simple fact.

The beginning of life is a mystery, and even the wonders of science peering into the womb during fetal development do not make it less so.

Sometimes we know right away that something is wrong. Sometimes it takes months. I knew one woman who carried her baby to term, perfectly healthy as far as anyone could tell, only to have it die in utero a week before the due date. She had to labor and give birth to a dead baby. No one could say why it happened, it just did.

Personally, if I knew that I had a baby with a serious deformity or severe mental retardation, I would likely have opted to abort. I would not presume to tell another woman what the right choice would be for her, nor second guess her choice once she made it. It must be up to the people involved, and ultimately the woman herself, not the state. Once the state gets into the act, you can have forced births and forced abortions and all sorts of bullshit. The Nazis forbade abortions; China required them; neither is acceptable.

The exception being if the man is the doctor performing the abortion at the woman's behest.

I don't give a crap what the religious freaks or even the law said (if our protections got yanked).

A woman in trouble could always count on me for help.

Today is tough for women, I, too, feel the defensive, protective need to "circle the wagons".

Dr. Tiller was one of our unapologetic supporters and we've suffered a great loss in his assassination.

nonsense couldn't believe it.

...and plenty of us men are 100% in favor of a woman's right to choose.

:kick:

...it really annoys me when strident women start yelling at men that they have absolutely no say in the decision, as if they had nothing to do with it and it doesn't involve them at all. And these are the same women who will carve the balls off a man who suggests that, in that case, he is not responsible for a child in any way, financially or otherwise.

It takes two people to make a baby. The anti-men faction are always screaming about how the man should have kept it in his pants or used protection if he didn't want to father a child. And yet no one suggests that the woman should have kept her pants on, or insisted on/used protection herself. The "blame" is shared equally, and so is the responsibility.

Yes, ultimately, it is the woman's body, and the woman's right to choose what to do about an unwanted pregnancy. But any woman who will not even consider a man's feelings about the matter, who insists he has "no say" in the matter, and then comes after him for every bit of support she can pull out of him deserves every bit of pain and discomfort she goes through in those nine months, and more besides.

The only time the father's feelings should not be taken into account are cases of rape.

Again, ultimately, the woman should absolutely have the final say on what happens to her body. But I've got more sympathy for a man who's honestly interested in having a child, only to have the fetus aborted, than a woman who tells a man she's not interested in what he has to say in the matter, and that all she wants from him is $600 a month for the next 18 years.

The anti-man contingent LOVE to blast men for unwanted pregnancies as if the men can make them happen spontaneously. In other words, women are exempt from taking responsibility for themselves in reproductive matters. But isn't that what the right to choose is all about?

With all the very many threads about this issue - how many here have had an abortion?


Because I have - and it's a bit irritating to read people's opinions on something they will never know one f*cking thing about. Ask - start the thread . . . maybe the women here will come out of the shadows with me and we can tell you: The very many and various reasons we had to make that choice.

It's not easy. It's not a man v. woman thing. It's not about men who hate women. Every situation is unique. And it's rare I've ever met another woman who has had abortion that did NOT result from a sexual assault that does not mourn that child in some way, shape or form.

Am I livid about Tiller's death? You betcha. For that ONE woman or two or 5K whose life he could have saved IF they had to make that choice . . . I mourn for those women to.

easy decision. The reasons told to me are quite varied and valid. I don't try to pry into peoples personal business but the subject of abortion has come up through the years.

Forty years ago, before it was legal, someone very close to me had an abortion. They already had 2 kids, close together, and lived at nearly poverty level. She was so stressed out when she found out she was pregnant again, I was concerned for her safety and mental health.

She took a bus to New York where the procedure was done-I have no idea how she found a place to do it. Back the same day on a late bus and never regretted it. She came home with a prescription for "the pill".(also illegal at the time) She has not regretted her decision, only the fact that it had to be done. She would never have been able to finish college and support her two young kids if there were more mouths to fill. Unfortunately, her husband was killed in an accident and she was left to fend for herself for many years. She is now in her 60's, still working and has a lovely family. The fact that he died had no bearing until after his death, no-one knew it would ever be a factor.

I stood behind her then and would do so again.

The decision wad hard, her husband backed her, she never regretted it.

A lifetime of despair should not be payback for a night of romance. Yes, it was their fault the pregnancy happened but life for that family would have been a sadder story without the procedure.

I am far too old to have children but support the right of every woman to choose what she will do with her body. I don't know how to express my thoughts about the men in this equation. It is personal and private. If I had ever had to make the choice, I know my husband would have supported my decision. It would, however, have been MY decision.

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You could leave the men out of your "decision making" process once you figure out a way to make babies with your female partner.