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Jeroen Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 12:20 PM
Original message
European Bees Also Taking a Nosedive - Perhaps GM Crops?
Edited on Wed Apr-04-07 12:22 PM by Jeroen
There have been several posts about the declining bee population in the US.
Apparently this is also happening here in Europe, especially in Germany.
Although not proven yet, there could be a relationship between declining bee populations
and GM crops. Interesting (and alarming) read:

http://www.celsias.com/blog/2007/03/29/european-bees-taking-a-nosedive/

---
Albert Einstein quote: “If the bee disappeared off the surface of the globe then man would only have four years of life left. No more bees, no more pollination, no more plants, no more animals, no more man.”

---
Given that nearly every bite of food that we eat has a pollinator, the seriousness of this emerging problem could dwarf all previous food disruptions. - San Francisco Chronicle
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. In such a short period of time?
Really?

I don't think so, it's probably some type of other pathogen that spreads quickly.
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Jeroen Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. We have to wait and see this summer
We have to wait and see how bee populations develop worldwide this summer.
I hope you’re right. We face serious problems if GM crops turn out to be this destructive on wildlife.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
33. Well, I think we mistake the dangers of GM crops. They are a danger to the original species.
That's the problem, I highly doubt they have anything wrong with them that would kill a bee. It's probably some type of virus or bacterium, but the fact it has spread so quickly pretty much eliminates GM crops, because they've been in use for a while now.
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
2. Has Germany allowed widespread planting of GM crops?
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Jeroen Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. Apparently, which surprised me a lot.
Apparently, which surprised me a lot. I live in Holland, so I am not sure. I though the EU was very restrictive towards GM in crops and food (like restricting the import on US GM food)
I really need to start educating myself on these issues. This is so worrying.

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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Keep us apprised as you find out more...thanks
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
20. I found this from a 2005 article in Guardian UK, yes GM corn
"Where are GM crops grown? Extensively in the wide open spaces of the US, Canada and Argentina. In Europe, Portugal, France and Germany have all dabbled with GM insect-resistant maize. Spain plants about 100,000 hectares (250,000 acres) of it each year for animal feed."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1535363,00.html

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Jeroen Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Thanks
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geiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
3. I am so alarmed about the bee issue
I think about it almost daily, and this post has sent me temporarily numb. I can't think. What are GM crops?
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. GM = Genetically Modified
I had thought the EU had banned GM crops so I don't know that that is the problem. It is very likely a pesticide causing the problem. If its a pathogen, it is extremely fast acting as the bees are not making it back to their hives.

More info at link: http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/genetics_modification/
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
18. I wouldn't worry about it too much.
For starters, I remain unconvinced that this die-off is as large as some people make it out to be--all the posts and (unsourced, non-reputable) articles I've seen are heavy on the sky-is-falling-death-to-humanity tripe. In any event, large die-offs, migrations, etcetera, are a not uncommon thing in nature: which beekeeping is, no matter how much we'd like to pretend we've got it under control. It's not uncommon for animal populations to suffer losses when a new parasite or disease shows up, only gradually adapting to a new equilibrium.

And GM crops are genetically modified plants/seeds, usually marketed as having some added benefit over conventional crops. Examples include corn which has more lysine and protein, for use in animal feed; tomatoes that are less prone to rotting; plant which are more resistant to various diseases. There's also a ton of paranoia surrounding GM crops, though scant little evidence for any of it. They've been blamed for everything from killing honeybees to being the cause of the pet food recall. Realistically, though, about 70% of the processed foods in the US contain GM ingredients. Also 80% of our cotton and 60% of our corn have genetic modifications.
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geiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #18
28. the bees, however, looked like they were indeed making a comeback
a couple of years ago, and now the problem is far worse than it was before.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
4. When all is said and done it will be a mighty big shock when the
damage from GM food finally is revealed. A big shock.

There is nothing good about it. Including the fact that the vermin and crud it's supposed to fight just becomes immune to the effects of the seed and makes super weeds and super crud.
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geiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
5. Please everyone with bees, please give us your personal update.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. You're asking for anecdotal evidence?
I've got dozens of bees all over my plum trees. It's going to be a bumper crop this year.
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geiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
31. cool, what is your general location,
and can we get some of those plums. those were one of my favorite things to pick off trees growing up.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. I have one hive
being treated for mites which gave them deformed wing virus. They seem to be holding their own for now.
I am holding my breath.
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geiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #12
32. what does the deformed wing virus do--impede partial or all ability to fly?
yuk.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. Most of mine that are affected
have small deformed wings which do not allow them to fly. The hive tosses these bees out.
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twiceshy Donating Member (259 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
6. I saw some article that connected bees with sunspots...
Wish I could find it, but apparently bees are able to relate to quarks and other subatomic particles and it effects their navigation and communications. The scientist observed that their dances are explainable as 4th/5th dimensional represented in two dimensions. Really mind blowing article, ahhhh here it is with a link:

http://www.synchronizm.com/blog/index.php/2007/03/29/the-bees-who-flew-too-high

Honeybees and Sunspots may be interacting in one of the most unwatched ballets since television was created. Metaphorically speaking of course:

Imagine an aquarium containing a fish. Imagine also that you are unable to see the aquarium directly and your knowledge about it and what it contains comes from two television cameras, one directed at the aquarium’s front and the other directed at its side. As you stare at the two television monitors, you might assume that the fish on each of the screens are separate entities. After all, because the cameras are set at different angles, each of the images will be slightly different. But as you continue to watch the two fishes, you will eventually become aware that there is a certain relationship between them. When one turns, the other also makes a slightly different but corresponding turn; when one faces the front, the other always faces toward the side. If you remain unaware of the full scope of the situation, you might even conclude that the fish must be instantaneously communicating with one another, but this is clearly not the case.1

If there are processes in this universe of which we are unaware of the full scope, perhaps the only way to observe them is using the multi-camera metaphor. In this ballet - which has the tragedy of the prospect of agricultural collapse, the triumph of the idea of biological interaction with quantum processes, and the drama of far away forces dancing within our presences - we can become part of the dance as we expertly shift our camera views like an experienced television producer. In the process, a mystery may be solved, one making many of us (and perhaps not enough of us) nervous lately.

Camera One: Honeybees

The first reports began in November of bees mysteriously disappearing. Not just one or two, but entire colonies of tens of thousands of bees at a time. As temperatures have warmed and it has become safe to open hives, the extent of losses is grave:
In Michigan, Terry Klein, vice president of the Michigan Beekeepers Association and a commercial beekeeper, said reports of huge losses are beginning to arrive.

“One beekeeper started with 1,500 hives and had only 500 colonies left,” Klein said. “Over three or four more weeks, he lost 70 percent of those.”2

Assuming a winter population of approximately 20,000 bees, this would leave losses for one beekeeper at 27 million bees! The losses have been widespread in North America, with some beekeepers loosing up to 80 percent of their hives. Over 400 reports have come in from at least 22 states so far. Given the extent of losses, the most puzzling thing is the lack of dead bees:

Although the bodies of dead bees often are littered around a hive, sometimes carried out of the hive by worker bees, no bee remains are typically found around colonies struck by the mystery ailment. Scientists assume these bees have flown away from the hive before dying.

27 million dead bees in a relatively small area should leave some physical evidence. Unless there is an extremely efficient physical process (like a phantom bee-eater) or a much wider geographical distribution of bee carcasses upon their demise, a very strange phenomenon is at work.
Curiously, it has been noted that something similar happened in North America approximately 50 years ago.

I’m a hundred miles behind myself
- Beck, Milk and Honey

Camera Two: Sunspots

Sunspots follow an approximate 11-year cycle, corresponding to increases in solar activity. This solar activity causes geomagnetic effects during the peaks, but effects on earth’s magnetic field also occur during the minimums. Using these observations, scientists have predicted that the next solar maximum, expected to peak in 2010, could be the most intense ever.
The measurement that allows the the prediction is called Inter-hour Variability. Combined with another observation on the sun, Physicist David Hathaway noticed a correlation that allowed prediction of solar activity 6-8 years later. In his observations, the last time something similar to the IHV measurements he sees today happened was about 50 years ago.

I feel it coming and I’ve got to get out of it’s way
- Nine Inch Nails, Sunspots

Watching The Dance

Aside from the fact that most children would use the same crayons to draw both sunspots and honeybees, how could they two be related?
Barbara Shipman, mathematician and daughter of a bee researcher, first noticed something peculiar about the dance bees use to describe where pollen sources are located to other bees. Observed over 40 years by Karl von Firsh, these movements seemed an overly complex way to convey information, especially in insect behavior. No one had yet made sense of the dance the bee scouts performed on returning to a hive, but one thing was clear. All of the dance was based on a triangulation of the hive, the food source, and the sun.
Shipman first studied bees because her father left the bee books in her room, and later studied them in her freshman year as a biochemistry major. It was not until she delved into mathematics that she penetrated the enigmatic mystery of the dance. She was studying flag manifolds, mathematical constructs used in projecting multi-dimensional phenomena into fewer dimensions when something from childhood became clear:

One day Shipman was busy projecting the six-dimensional residents of the flag manifold onto two dimensions. The particular technique she was using involved first making a two-dimensional outline of the six dimensions of the flag manifold. This is not as strange as it may sound. When you draw a circle, you are in effect making a two-dimensional outline of a three- dimensional sphere. As it turns out, if you make a two-dimensional outline of the six-dimensional flag manifold, you wind up with a hexagon. The bee’s honeycomb, of course, is also made up of hexagons, but that is purely coincidental. However, Shipman soon discovered a more explicit connection. She found a group of objects in the flag manifold that, when projected onto a two-dimensional hexagon, formed curves that reminded her of the bee’s recruitment dance. The more she explored the flag manifold, the more curves she found that precisely matched the ones in the recruitment dance. I wasn’t looking for a connection between bees and the flag manifold, she says. I was just doing my research. The curves were nothing special in themselves, except that the dance patterns kept emerging.5

Since then, researchers have discovered that things such as the polarization of the light of the sun and local variations of the earth’s magnetic field affect the components of the dance, suggesting bees have sensitivities that would require re-writing our biology, physics and cosmology texts from scratch:

There is some research to support the view that bees are sensitive to effects that occur only on a quantum-mechanical scale. One study exposed bees to short bursts of a high-intensity magnetic field and concluded that the bees’ response could be better explained as a sensitivity to an effect known as nuclear magnetic resonance, or nmr, an acronym commonly associated with a medical imaging technique. nmr occurs when an electromagnetic wave impinges on the nuclei of atoms and flips their orientation. nmr is considered a quantum mechanical effect because it takes place only if each atom absorbs a particular size packet, or quantum, of electromagnetic energy.

If this were not enough, the results imply that bees can perceive quarks, thereby interacting with the quantum world without disturbing it in the ways both observed and predicted by quantum theory. And this perception would have to extend to the perception of quarks not as coherent structures, but as fields. In other words, bees may be able to perceive the unobserved quantum fields of zero-point energy, the much-debated property from which all of the phenomenal world may emerge in the eternal quantum moment.

The Stage: Sun and Earth

Other than the coincidence that a similar disappearance of bees and the precursor to a strong sunspot cycle both occurred at the same time, just as is happening now, how could such revelations be related to the solar cycle?
Science is still at a loss to explain the power of the sun’s magnetic field, or the Solar Dynamo. A set of observations seem all to relate, yet the observations cannot be explained individually or together:

A successful model for the solar dynamo must explain several observations: 1) the 11-year period of the sunspot cycle, 2) the equator-ward drift of the active latitude as seen in the butterfly diagram, 3) Hale’s polarity law and the 22-year magnetic cycle, 4) Joy’s law for the observed tilt of sunspot groups and, 5) the reversal of the polar magnetic fields near the time of cycle maximum as seen in the magnetic butterfly diagram.7

Taking a cue from the bees, we can look at spin as a common component. Spin is a property of quantum ‘particles’ that can be manipulated, and is a fundamental component of both NMR and quantum computers. Spin is complex conceptually, especially given the fact that the most simple description of the spin of Fermions (the ‘particles’ that make up matter as we know it) is 1/2. This means that if you could hold one of these ‘particles’ and mark a spot on it with a Sharpie, you would have to turn it 720 degrees around in your hand to see the mark once again. Quarks, the ‘particle’ bees may interact with, also have spin 1/2.
The concept of spherical harmonics is used to visualize the effects of spin. Using spherical harmonics, the sun can also be visualized as a six-dimensional body with three rotational components. In another simple visualization, a two-dimensional flatlander would have a great deal of difficulty explaining an eight-ball intersecting her space while rotating both horizontally and vertically. It would seem to her that the disc she observed (the portion of the eight-ball intersecting with her plane) had a spin of 1/2. If she then used spherical harmonics to describe the object, she would be able to make some mathematical predictions about its structure and behavior, even without having an ability to visualize or perceive the third dimension directly.
In our visualization of the sun, such a correlation of observable phenomena should be striking if indeed the sun is a six dimensional structure:

Here we see the sun in six dimensions (above) rotating, the magnetic component (poles) waxing, waning and switching on a 22-year cycle (magnetic flux and the Hale cycle), the 11-year “butterfly pattern” (the Schwabe cycle, the Omega effect accounting for the stretching in actual observation).
The red and blue parts of the image above correspond with the “real” component of the wave function described by the spherical harmonic (sunspots and solar wind), while the yellow and green describe the “imaginary” component. Could this “imaginary” component correspond to an effect similar to the solar wind that interacts with the “unobserved quantum field”?

The Smoking Gun

The solar probe Ulysses’ circumpolar orbit took it below the south pole of the sun this past winter. While there, sunspot 938 put on the most energetic performance of any sunspot in four years, ejecting a particle storm that would have been a “ground-level event” (penetrating the entire atmosphere) had it been directed at earth. Instead, it was directed towards the south pole, shattering current models of solar functioning.
If we consider such a particle stream to be a secondary stream to the “imaginary” component of the solar field that would be dominant during a solar minimum, then the quantum field to which the bees may be sensitive could have been disturbed. Or, the bees could have lost navigation, possibly abandoning the hive as one of the directional components of either the quantum field or local terrestrial magnetic variations moved drastically closer to the sun. They may have flown skyward, attempting to keep up with the rapidly moving target of home in six dimensions. Or, hyperdimentsional bee-eaters could have emerged from the sunspot, phasing the bees out of existence on contact (given the evidence, anything is possible, and equally strange. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t consider this to be very likely to say the least).
Similar events could have happened 50 years ago when geomagnetic events preceded the most active solar cycle recorded. Bee disappearances were reported across the southern United States in the time preceding the increased activity. Physicist David Hathaway:

“We don’t know why this works,” says Hathaway. The underlying physics is a mystery. “But it does work.”

Enough anecdotal evidence and coincidence combined with solid observation also exists to link the disappearance of the bees with changes in the sun, even if the reason why the cameras show correlation in the dance is not clear.

Excuse me while I kiss the sky
- Jimi Hendrix, Purpule Haze

References:

1 http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Holographic_Universe/id/5864

2 http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0703270579mar28,1,4079291.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed

3 http://www.livescience.com/animalworld/ap_070211_bee_disease.html

4 http://www.physorg.com/news86010302.html

5 http://discovermagazine.com/1997/nov/quantumhoneybees1263

6 ibid

7 http://solarscience.msfc.nasa.gov/dynamo.shtml

8 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin-1/2

9 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_spot_cycle

10 http://www.bpreid.com/applets/poasDemo.html

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Jeroen Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #6
19. Strange but interesting, thanks for the links
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geiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
27. I cannot absorb this all in one sitting because I am already in an altered state of disbelief
I will come back again later.

Thank you for taking the time.....
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
8. I was glad to see a big fat bumblebee yesterday
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geiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #8
29. honeybees are different from bumblebees
I love seeing the bumblebees, though, too, and I finally saw my first robin of the season on Sunday.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #29
40. I don't know what a honeybee really looks like.
There was a bumblebee and about five thinner bees all working on the flowers of a cherry tree in front. I was glad to see all of them.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
9. Maybe it's chemtrails.
There isn't any evidence for either, but why not speculate?
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Jeroen Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Sorry for asking, but you are cynical right?
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. No, I'm completely serious.
GM crops don't cause bee deaths, they cause school shootings.

Bee deaths are caused by chemtrails, or the timecube.
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LondonReign2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. The fratostat on my timecube is shot
I suspect it needs more pollination.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. lol
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Jeroen Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. No, I am
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
24. this was discussed on PBS News Hour last nite
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geiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. loss of habitat, mites, drought, unknown origins all possible causes
but even with plenty of food they'll die off.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #24
34. The die-of is mentioned, but not the the speculation it is caused by GM crops.
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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
25. I'll be running two hives this season - will update as events justify nt
.
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Jeroen Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Good luck with your hives! n/t
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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #26
35. Thanks! Sticking with organic IPM, but can't control what my neighbors spray, sadly.
Still, hope springs eternal and all of that . . .
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
36. Made a video of it and yes Germany has GM crops
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLZVJRaoQAk

Thing is German scientists have been suspicious of GM crops and done their own investigation and its been ongoing since 2000

there is something wrong and its all indicating GM crops

of which Bush doesn't want acknowledge

lots of money and power in those GM crops
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
38. I have read reports it is a mite being spread by HOW bees are used in the US
Basally almost all bees end up in California for two week period to fertilize ONE crop, they they have to be moved. This is do to mono-culture nature of US agriculture, we tend to have miles and miles of one crop, that needs bees for only 2-3 weeks a year. Then the bees have to be moved to the next crop for 2-3 week and then again to a third crop for 203 weeks etc.

So to this mono-cultural system, most bees in the US come in contact with most other bees in the US during they trip from crop to crop. Thus when a bug hits the bees it hits them all at once which can lead to a huge die-off of bees. In traditional agriculture you have more than one crop in an area, so the bees go from crop to crop as new flowers open up. The bees stay in one place year round, and rarely come into contact with each other except during the spring breeding season. This tends to spread out disease so that the bees have more time to develop immunities to diseases.

In Europe where bees do NOT move as much as they do in the US, the same problem is affecting the bees, but to a lesser extent. The difference is attributed to the fact that in Europe bees do NOT move as much as they do in the US (And in Eastern Europe where Bees do not move at all, the mite that is the present problem for the bees is at best a minor problem).

Note the problem is twofold, the coming together of various honey bees into a very small area (which brings all of the disease that each bee have to other bees) and then the spreading of these diseases to the rest of the country via the movement of the bees (This is how most feral honey bee populations have become affected and killed off over the last few years).

Some side notes:
1. The latest problem is do to mites, but this has been a problem for years and affect ONLY Honey bees, other bees are NOT affected by this mite (or if affected no where near the level of honey bees).
2. The biggest lost has been the almost complete destruction of feral honey bee populations in North America. The bees kept by beekeepers are kept active by extensive use of various treatment to keep the bees alive, treatments not available to the feral bee population.
3. Honey bees are NOT native to North America. As such NATIVE plants are barely affected by this problem (Bumble bees and native bees and other pollinators are still pollinating native plants in North America).
4. There are OTHER pollinators, but they do NOT move well, tend to be in small colonies instead of the large colony of the honey Bee and thus require crops to come into "Season" throughout the year to survive (i.e. can NOT be used for mono-cultural agriculture).
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soothsayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
39. some dude said increased UV rays were blinding them. dunno, but
can't we engineer some better bees that won't die off? Heck, nature is likely to do it, like our crows who returned from West Nile.
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