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Air France flight - 216 passengers, 30 nationalities

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Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010)

Jackeens

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Mon Jun-01-09 08:17 PM
Original message

Air France flight - 216 passengers, 30 nationalities

Edited on Mon Jun-01-09 08:36 PM by Jackeens

What an amazing spread of nationalities on that plane: France, Brazil, Germany, China, Italy, Switzerland, Britain, Ireland, Lebanon, Hungary, Norway, Slovakia, U.S.A., Morocco, Argentina, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Croatia, Denmark, Netherlands, Estonia, Philippines, The Gambia, Iceland, Romania, Russia, South Africa, Sweden, Turkey.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8077858.stm

Three of the passengers were Irish, all women in their 20s who had recently qualified as doctors - they were taking a holiday together before starting work in Dublin hospitals. One of them was a dancer with Riverdance, she performed on Broadway:

The father of another thought she wasn't flying home from Brazil until tomorrow - when he heard of the crash he double-checked an email she had sent him the other day, and there he saw the flight number. She was on the plane.

Christ, it's a cruel ****ing world.

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Berry Cool

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Mon Jun-01-09 08:20 PM
Response to Original message

1. You're not kidding there.

What else is there to say...

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Taverner

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Mon Jun-01-09 08:21 PM
Response to Original message

2. WTF happened?

Seriously - this is like L O S T with the plane just going off the radar and never being seen or heard from again...

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MissB

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Mon Jun-01-09 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #2

3. There is a lot of ocean out there

And radar doesn't go that far.

Sad for all those families. I hope the location of the plane is found soon so that the families can have some measure of peace. Not knowing anything must be hell.

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Jackeens

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Mon Jun-01-09 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #2

4. What amazes me - and I know less than nothing about these things - is...

Edited on Mon Jun-01-09 08:29 PM by Jackeens

...how they seem to have no way of tracing the plane now. Is that not what transponders, or similar, are for? I had thought that, maybe, the ocean was so deep where the plane crashed that might explain why they couldn't pick up any kind of signal, but an expert in these matters on the BBC tonight said he was baffled by it - he believed a signal should be picked up, regardless of the depth of the ocean.

Another guy, a former pilot, was puzzled by why a lightning strike would have such catastrophic consequences - he said his planes were hit 12 times in his career, and there was never a problem.

A horrible story.

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Statistical

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Mon Jun-01-09 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #4

8. The "expert" is no expert.

Edited on Mon Jun-01-09 08:57 PM by Statistical

Radar and signal towers that receive transponder signals don't reach into the middle of the ocean.

They certainly don't work from 5 miles below the surface.

A transponder is simply a radio. It broadcasts a code that identifies the plane and using multiple towers you can triagulate it. There is also an emergency transponder that activates in a crash and broadcasts on a special emergency frequency.

Without someone or something in range nobody will hear the signal. By now the plane is miles below the surface. Likely we will never find it unless we stuble upon it.

The oceans are very big.

Most "big" planes have a sat communication system for voice & data. It looks like the system reported a lightning strike and a short. The system likely broadcast the GPS locations so they have the approximate location.

However a plane crashing can go way off course as it falls 30,000 feet plus may have a substantial glide path. The circle they are looking in could be miles across. Searching miles of ocean where swells can carry away any floating wreckage and where the fueslage will be miles deep in no easy task.

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Jackeens

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Mon Jun-01-09 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #8

11. I'm very probably not doing him justice

In fairness to him I don't think he referred to just a transponder - he talked all kinds of technical stuff that meant nothing to me - and he did comment on the ocean depth. Even with that he was still puzzled by the inability to trace the plane, he believed it should still be easily done with whatever technology is available these days. Again, I have no clue.

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spanone

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Mon Jun-01-09 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #2

20. possibly hit by lightening

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/01/AR2009060102517.html

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bdamomma

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Mon Jun-01-09 08:32 PM
Response to Original message

5. so sad and not a trace either, god, I hope they find something.

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FreakinDJ

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Mon Jun-01-09 08:39 PM
Response to Original message

6. AirBus "Fly by Wire" has always been a BIG Problem

Add another 200 plus victims to that failed piece of shit control system.

And the ticketing agent sounded astounded when I said I would wait for a later flight over seas that wasn't an AirBus

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MercutioATC

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Mon Jun-01-09 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #6

12. It's one of those "six of one/half-dozen of another" things.

Boeing uses fly-by-wire on the 777, but it allows the pilot to override the computer. Airbus doesn't.

One of the byproducts of fly-by-wire is that a computer can interpret data from dozens of sensors and fly the plans more safely ans efficiently than any human could. The drawback is that if that computer fails (on an Airbus), you're SOL.

Still, I can show you at least five crashes caused by human error for every one you can show me caused by fly-by-wire. It's statistically a safe system.

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cboy4

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Mon Jun-01-09 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #12

14. I thought Airbus tweaked that problem after this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kHa3WNerjU

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MercutioATC

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Mon Jun-01-09 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #14

16. A catastrophic failure caused by lightning would be a million-to-one shot.

It's a redundant, hardened system.

...but it may well be that lightning did, in fact, bring this one down.

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cboy4

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Mon Jun-01-09 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #16

17. Yea, no doubt about the lightning .. I was talking about the pilot's

ability to override onboard computers and their built-in soft limits.

Here's a good story about the positives of Airbus' system:

Unlike Airbus, Boeing lets aviator override fly-by-wire technology

Monday, March 20, 2000

By JAMES WALLACE Mail Author
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER

MIAMI -- As the Airbus A320 jetliner descended through 3,000 feet on its final approach to the airport, co-pilot Rudy Canto glanced off to the right and spotted a regional jetliner bearing down on the Airbus plane.

The regional jet also was descending, and the two planes were seconds away from a midair collision.

Canto barked a warning and the pilot immediately pushed the side-stick controller hard left and pulled back as far as it would go and held it there -- an abrupt maneuver that should have resulted in the plane's losing lift and stalling.

But one of seven flight-control computers on the A320 took over and the Airbus plane climbed sharply and turned away from the regional jet just in time to avoid a collision.

http://www.seattlepi.com/business/boe202.shtml

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MercutioATC

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Mon Jun-01-09 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #17

24. Agreed, It's like traction control on a car...on steroids.

99% of the time, it'll save your ass. That 1% of the time, it won't...

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FreakinDJ

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Mon Jun-01-09 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #14

21. Actually Airbus got caught switching the flight recorder in that crash

Edited on Mon Jun-01-09 10:05 PM by FreakinDJ

Ya - they tweeked the Fly by Wire system by switching the flight recorders

Early on in its service lifetime, the A320 had several highly publicized crashes. The most notorious occurred on June 26, 1988, when an Air France A320 crashed during an airshow in Habsheim, France killing three passengers onboard. While the crash was officially blamed on pilot error, the investigation left numerous unanswered questions. Switzerland 's Institute of Police Forensic Evidence and Criminology later determined that the plane's flight data recorder had been substituted after the crash, throwing the entire investigation into doubt.

http://www.aviationexplorer.com/a320_facts.htm

Ya I'm rushing right out to buy my tickets to ride on 1 of those peices of shit

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cboy4

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Mon Jun-01-09 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #21

22. Link?

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FreakinDJ

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Mon Jun-01-09 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #22

25. hows that

http://www.aviationexplorer.com/a320_facts.htm

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cboy4

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Mon Jun-01-09 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #25

29. I'm a little hesitant to accept something from a website for

aviation enthusiasts.

But it gives me a start. Thanks

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FreakinDJ

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Mon Jun-01-09 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #29

32. NOVA did a special about the AirBus Fly by Wire 10 years ago

Edited on Mon Jun-01-09 10:24 PM by FreakinDJ

They have had a deplorable record for as long as the plane has been out.

Airbus sends out teams of engineers all trying to claim it is the pilot's fault. Personally no way could I pilot that plane depending on a "Nintendo Joy Stick" to keep all the passengers safe

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cboy4

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Mon Jun-01-09 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #32

33. What difference does the stick make? If you're going to argue the system

fine, but what difference does it make if it's a stick or a yoke.

You just have to get used to it.

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FreakinDJ

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Mon Jun-01-09 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #33

35. You can "Feel" what the yoke is doing

Where Boeing's Fly by wire differs from Airbus is the Boeing yoke controls a series of Hydrualic Control valves that in turn control the plane. Even when the plane is being controled by the computer system the yoke still moves as if the pilot was flying it.

The Critical difference is the Airbus Fly by Wire computers can make a mistake and the pilot doesn't know it. Or (and this is what probably crashed this flight) when the computer goes down the "Joy Stick" does NOTHING - Zilch - Nada

The Boeing has a total of 3 Hydrualic Systems. 1 primary 2 back-up

I'm a control systems engineer - this stuff facinates me but I work in Power Generation and Oil Refining - So NO - I'm not an employee of Boeing

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cboy4

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Tue Jun-02-09 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #35

36. Oh you're lucky you sound like you know what you're talking about.

!!

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FreakinDJ

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Mon Jun-01-09 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #12

19. AirBus Fly by Wire has a Looong history of FAILURE

Edited on Mon Jun-01-09 09:57 PM by FreakinDJ

And even some Cover-Up by the French Government

The Critical difference between Airbus Fly by Wire and Boeing Fly by Wire is Boeing still has the hydrualics controls in the pilots hands

AirBus is flown by a "Joy Stick" not unlike that of a Nintendo Game

India Crash Revives French Dispute Over Safety of Airbus Jet

The crash of an Airbus A320 jet that killed 97 people in India last week has reignited a dispute in France over whether the computerized, highly advanced aircraft is too complicated to fly. The French pilots union is urging that the airliner be grounded in France.

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/02/24/world/india-crash-revives-french-dispute-over-safety-of-airbus-jet.html

Initial Airbus crash details deeply disturbing � my advice for now is not to travel on any Airbus model until computer control issue is sorted

If the news reports are correct, the initial details from the flight recorders of the Air New Zealand A320 Airbus that crashed in the Mediterranean off Southern France on November 28 are deeply disturbing.
TV3 tonight reported French air accident investigators as saying the flight data recorder showed the jet experienced a power surge that made it fly sharply upwards as it was coming to land at Perpignan. Such an uncommanded manoeuvre at such a low altitude would have caused the plane to stall and crash, which it did.

If true, this is virtually the same problem suffered by a Qantas Airbus of a different model, the bigger A330, over Western Australia, in October. That plane surged up, then down, before the pilots were able to regain control.
http://poneke.wordpress.com/2009/01/18/airbus/

Early on in its service lifetime, the A320 had several highly publicized crashes. The most notorious occurred on June 26, 1988, when an Air France A320 crashed during an airshow in Habsheim, France killing three passengers onboard. While the crash was officially blamed on pilot error, the investigation left numerous unanswered questions. Switzerland 's Institute of Police Forensic Evidence and Criminology later determined that the plane's flight data recorder had been substituted after the crash, throwing the entire investigation into doubt.

http://www.aviationexplorer.com/a320_facts.htm

Critics point to pitfalls of fly-by-wire technology
The first recorded fatal crash of an A300 was in 1992 when a Pakistan International Airlines plane flew into high ground on approaching Kathmandu. The plane was some 1,600ft lower than planned and in daylight but cloud shrouded the mountains. All 12 crew and 155 passengers were killed.
Taiwan's China Airlines suffered a considerable drop in passenger confidence in April 1994 when an A300 crashed while approaching Nagoya, Japan, killing all but seven of the 271 on board. In February 1998, another China Airlines A300 came down near Taipei's Chiang Kai-Shek airport, killing 196 on the plane and six others. The plane disintegrated in a fireball that engulfed a cluster of buildings. Most of the passengers were holidaymakers returning from a mid-winter break on the Indonesian resort island of Bali.

The airline Garuda Indonesia also came under fire over safety. In September, 1997, a Garuda Indonesia Airbus crashed into a hillside near Medan, Indonesia, killing all 234 people on board.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/critics-point-to-pitfalls-of-flybywire-technology-616801.html

While large commercial air transport aircraft have had hydraulically-aided controls for along time, and military air forces have been flying their aircraft under computer control for equally as long, many people including myself believe that the use of computer primary flight control in commercial transports heralds a new era, in which scientists concerned with specification and verification of computer systems, as well as passengers concerned with personal safety, should renew their interest.

It would be pleasant to say there have been no accidents. Unfortunately, as with many new types of aircraft, the Airbus A320/A330/A340 series has had its share. There have been fatal accidents with A320 aircraft in Bangalore, India; in Habsheim, in Alsace in France; near Strasbourg, also in Alsace in France; and in Warsaw, Poland. An A330 crashed on a test flight in Toulouse, killing Airbus's chief test pilot as well as the other crew on board. An A340 suffered serious problems with its flight management computer system en route from Tokyo to Heathrow, and further significant problems on approach to Heathrow. In late 1995 and early 1996, the B757 (not a fly-by-wire aircraft) suffered its first two fatal accidents in a decade and a half of service.

http://www.rvs.uni-bielefeld.de/publications/Incidents/DOCS/FBW.html

Nope - you won't find me flying on Airbus any time soon

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cboy4

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Mon Jun-01-09 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #19

23. Airbus has a fine safety record.

You must work for Boeing.

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FreakinDJ

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Mon Jun-01-09 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #23

28. You didn.t graduate highschool either did you

Because you still FAILED your homework assignment

Unofficial calculations put the number of deaths per million A300 flights at 0.78, compared with 1.59 for the Airbus A310. The figure for the Boeing 747 jumbo jet is 0.97.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/critics-point-to-pitfalls-of-flybywire-technology-616801.html

Give it a rest and let the "Real Men" have a discussion - will ya

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cboy4

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Mon Jun-01-09 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #28

31. What kind of comparison is that?

Give me the true Boeing vs Airbus figures.

Don't give me some hand picked figures that involve two airbus models and one Boeing.

How many times has the A340 gone down?

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MercutioATC

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Mon Jun-01-09 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #19

26. Add them all up and you're at less than 10% of human-error crashes

that the fly-by-wire system could have prevented.

I can understand the reluctance to trust your life to a computer, but the fly-by-wire system...statistically...IS superior.

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FreakinDJ

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Mon Jun-01-09 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #26

30. On the last remark you would be wrong Sir

Unofficial calculations put the number of deaths per million A300 flights at 0.78, compared with 1.59 for the Airbus A310. The figure for the Boeing 747 jumbo jet is 0.97.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/critics-point-to-pitfalls-of-flybywire-technology-616801.html

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MercutioATC

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Mon Jun-01-09 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #30

34. A300s amd A310s both had "limited fly-by wire"...the A320 was the first fully "fly-by-wire:" Airbus.

...and more than half of 747s are freighters, so it's not really fair to compare it to the A300 and A310 series in terms of "deaths per million flights".

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XOKCowboy

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Mon Jun-01-09 08:46 PM
Response to Original message

7. I've made several overnight, overseas flights. This is horrific.

Most overseas flights to Europe are incredibly diverse since Europe has so many countries. Plus CDG is a worldwide hub for connections to all parts of Asia. For an old country boy like me to meet people from all over the world was quite an experience. I met so many wonderful people on those flights and on layovers in Paris, London and Frankfurt.

If you fly a lot you put out of your mind what might happen if something catastrophic went wrong over the ocean. I don't want to imagine what happened to those poor, unsuspecting people. My heart goes out to them and their loved ones.

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Jackeens

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Mon Jun-01-09 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #7

9. That' so true XOKCowboy

Any time I've been on flights like that it felt like the United Nations, they were wonderful. The horror of this is beyond description.

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XOKCowboy

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Mon Jun-01-09 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #9

27. The first thing I heard when I turned on the TV this morning was a plane was missing....

It gave me a shudder. I'll still fly. I have to and I really don't mind it. I have to say though that my faith in the airlines to provide a safe aircraft is not like it once was. I know about low bid contracts and off-shoring.

I always felt like international flights were so much more civilized than US flights. The "bad" passengers were usually rude Americans.

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malaise

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Mon Jun-01-09 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #7

10. Horrific is the word

:cry: :cry:

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bdamomma

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Mon Jun-01-09 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #10

15. terrible terrible news today.

:(

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Catherine Vincent

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Mon Jun-01-09 09:31 PM
Response to Original message

13. Sigh!

:-(

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proteus_lives

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Mon Jun-01-09 09:52 PM
Response to Original message

18. Makes me shiver.

No matter many safety checks we make, how high our tech is, sometimes shit happens. It's sad.

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