Please, Mr. Obama; no kissing or holding hands with the Saudi royalty.

RadiationTherapy

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Wed Jun-03-09 09:57 AM
Original message

Please, Mr. Obama; no kissing or holding hands with the Saudi royalty.

It is one of my favorite mockeries of the Bushes and I do not want it diminished by photos of you doing the same.

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DrDan

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Wed Jun-03-09 09:58 AM
Response to Original message

1. it is a custom in that part of the world - I worked there for 4 years

to mock it is juvenile and arrogant.

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RadiationTherapy

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Wed Jun-03-09 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #1

3. Bah. Mocking the bushes for being subject to the Saudi royalty is no problem for me.

I find this type of physical contact to be smarmy and unnecessary; customs or no.

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John Q. Citizen

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Wed Jun-03-09 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #3

5. How provincial of you.

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RadiationTherapy

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #5

7. I am a sovereign individual and my president represents a sovereign nation.

Yeah, I am pretty provincial.

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John Q. Citizen

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #7

9. The social greeting rituals of foriegn countries bear zero relation to what country you come from.

I realize that you feel special and exempt from displaying good manners.

But my motto is "When in Rome do as the Romans do."

I'm confident that my president has more than enough experience in various cultures that he won't let your insecurities get in the way of his good manners.

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RadiationTherapy

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #9

14. I don't see what touching or demanding to be touched has to do with manners.

I do not demand people touch me; quite the opposite, really.

Mutual respect begins with not having to subject yourself to the whims of your presumed equal.

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John Q. Citizen

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #14

19. Fine. If you meet Obama or his wife, refuse to shake hands on the grounds of your equality. I could

care less.

But if people think you rude and anti-social, don't wonder why.

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RadiationTherapy

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #19

23. I don't wonder what people think of me in general.

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Dorian Gray

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #9

46. It is incorrect

for us to bow to royalty of other nations. That's for the subjects of those nations to do. Protocol does not demand that we, as non-citizens of those countries, do the same.

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John Q. Citizen

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Wed Jun-03-09 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #46

51. The kiss or hand holding isn't a royal thing. Everybody does it.

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Dorian Gray

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Thu Jun-04-09 06:02 AM
Response to Reply #51

84. Then go for it....

If it's a polite custom and that's all, then I have no problem with it.

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pnwmom

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Wed Jun-03-09 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #9

48. Bush was repeatedly pictured holding hands with the Saudi Prince

while in the United States.

Would you applaud Obama for doing that, too?

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John Q. Citizen

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Wed Jun-03-09 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #48

53. No, Obama should punch him in the nose. ya think? It's not a royal thing. It's a custom

that friends kiss lightly on the cheek. ANd friends hold hands.

Like in France? Kiss on the cheek? Are you familiar?

Or in Hollywood?

The freepers don't know that though, they think it's somehow related to sovereignty.

It's not.

It's like shaking hands.

Even if it freeks out people who don't know any better.

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mitchum

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Wed Jun-03-09 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #53

62. The Saud royal pigs deserve no sign of respect, except to be put up against a nice clean wall

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John Q. Citizen

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Wed Jun-03-09 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #62

65. Then you and Osama Bin Laden agree on that.

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mitchum

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Wed Jun-03-09 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #65

66. Oh, I don't think it's just the two of us,but you already know that

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John Q. Citizen

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Wed Jun-03-09 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #66

68. I didn't say or imply that it was just the two of you. I'm not a big fan of the House of Saud either

but i'm also not a fan of holding talks with someone and insulting them.

It's clear Obama wants to proceed on the 2 state solution and it's clear that any co-operation he can get from the Saudis will be important to achieving that.

I have no idea what your interests are one way or the other. Personally, I'm opposed to the death penalty.

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pnwmom

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Wed Jun-03-09 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #65

74. All nineteen terrorists came from Saudi Arabia.

Someday I expect that it will proven that there was Saudi involvement on some level. No one has ever explained the activity in the world stock exchanges preceding the attack.

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John Q. Citizen

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Wed Jun-03-09 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #74

78. Actually, most of the 19 came from Saudi Arabia. There was a Yemeni, and an Egyptian I believe

or a Yemeni and two from a different country.

Al Quida and the King are enemies, but certainly there are Saudis who have connections to both, such as the bin laden whose family is close to the House of Saud and there wayward son who we funded in Afghanistan.

But you may recall that there were bombings of Saudi oil installations and Saudi ordered crack downs on group aligned with al quida.
Al quida believes the crown is corrupt, venal and far too cozy with the West.

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pnwmom

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Wed Jun-03-09 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #53

73. You said "when in Rome." Well, they weren't in Rome. They were in the U.S.

And I don't think any US President should be acting particularly friendly with the Saudis.

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John Q. Citizen

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Wed Jun-03-09 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #73

79. Yeah, except every single President from what Roosevelt on has re-affirmed our close

friend ship. Including Jimmy Carter.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1603593

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pnwmom

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Wed Jun-03-09 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #79

81. And how many of them walked around holding hands with the Saudis?

Here, in the U.S.?

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John Q. Citizen

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Wed Jun-03-09 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #81

82. oh my. You are really upset about that. Aren't you?

If that was all bush did, I would feel extremely lucky. In fact, i would be very glad.

for you, though, that was right up there with an illegal invasion and torture.

I don't get it, but it takes all kinds.

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konnichi wa

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #7

10. I have a feeling you're not in line for an ambassadorship.

Thankfully.

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RadiationTherapy

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #10

18. Yeah, cause I don't bow either.

Nor genuflect, nor kiss rings...none of that shit. Non serviam.

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John Q. Citizen

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #18

22. and when someone says hello, you ignore them because you aren't bound by social graces. Good for you

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RadiationTherapy

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #22

25. I do what I want to do when I want AND I am gracious and respectful.

I do not need rules to dictate my grace and respect.

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John Q. Citizen

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #25

28. Yeah, being better than everyone else is how you display your graciousnees and respect. Not that you

care if anyone else finds you gracious or respectful.

It's not important that they think you are, only that you think you are.
Since what you think is all that matters. Not what anybody else thinks.

I get it.

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RadiationTherapy

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #28

32. You are right about everything but the "better than everyone else part"

Those are the types of people who demand you perform meaningless gestures to assuage their need for status validation.

I am certainly no better than anyone and I certainly do not worry what others think about me. What I think is a great deal of all that matters to me. That also means I do not worry about who marries whom, what guns a person owns, what drugs people ingest, etc. I do get concerned about actions people take that impact others.

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John Q. Citizen

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #32

43. So why do you care so much what Obama may or may not do? Isn't it his business?

Edited on Wed Jun-03-09 11:58 AM by John Q. Citizen

Why do you insist it is your business?

Do you post about your displeasure when Obama shakes hands with McCain, or with the Prime Minister of England, or with his former school teacher?

I have seen it if you do.

What about when Obama kissed babies? Was'rt that just awful?
:rofl:

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RadiationTherapy

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #43

45. He's the president of the US.

Hence, my business.

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John Q. Citizen

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Wed Jun-03-09 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #45

50. So when he kisses a baby it make you upset? Or if he gives an old friend a peck on the cheek, you

are bummed out?

See, the greeting isn't a king or a president thing. It's just good manners in that part of the world. I think you are under the impression that it is somehow unique to royalty, but it isn't. Everybody does it.

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RadiationTherapy

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Wed Jun-03-09 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #50

58. No. Despite what the greeting "is" in their culture

O IS the president and the king IS the king. Due to that context, I find the behavior, customary or otherwise, to be inappropriate.

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DrDan

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #18

24. how about this - worthy of a mock?

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RadiationTherapy

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #24

27. I am sorry, but the pic is not showing.

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DrDan

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #27

34. weird - shows in my view

but it is a pic of junior and Obama hugging - probably at the inauguration

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RadiationTherapy

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #34

37. Well, since there is no power dynamic between these two men, what do I care.

It isn't the act I am concerned about; I have hugged plenty of men. It is that when Obama and the Saudi king meet, O is my Pres and the Saudi king is, at most, O's EQUAL. So it is the power dynamics and symbolism behind the gestures that I resist.

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DrDan

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #37

40. no - you said these gestures were worthy of being mocked

You personally hugging or not hugging someone . . . and mocking others for doing so are two different things.

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RadiationTherapy

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #40

44. I may not have communicated it well upthread, but this has to do with their stations

and not anything else. Hugging, kissing, and holding hands is fine. Please don't do it when you are a leader meeting with another leader.

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DrDan

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Wed Jun-03-09 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #44

57. it is baffling to me as to why you find a hug, or holding hands as "diminshing" oneself

Didn't we just escape an administration where this attitude cost us grievously around the world? Where this arrogance probably cost us many many lives? Didn't we fight to rid ourselves of this arrogance?

I, for one, am glad we now have a President who is not afraid to show respect for others and their customs.

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DrDan

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #3

8. juvenile

Edited on Wed Jun-03-09 11:15 AM by DrDan

I disliked junior as much as anyone. But his behavior with the Saudis was one of the only mature, self-confident ones I ever witnessed.

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RadiationTherapy

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #8

17. I am of the opinion his kissing and holding hands had more to do with personal business

than political discourse. (Oil business, I mean)

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DrDan

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #17

20. you will never be successful in conducting business with the Saudis

Of course, I doubt very much if that matters to you. Thank goodness most feelings of that sort are found over with our friends at FR, and not so much here.

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RadiationTherapy

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #20

29. I will not succeed anywhere where I am required to diminish myself to others.

Non serviam.

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DrDan

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #29

36. why do you see it as diminishing yourself?

the Saudi's do not see it as a sign of superiority.

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RadiationTherapy

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #36

38. It is diminishing because it appears (despite facts) to be subjecting yourself to that person.

Like kissing the ring of the pope. It is diminishing because it establishes we are no longer on equal footing. Unless all the gestures are mutual in which case there may be equal footing implied.

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Romulox

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #1

11. So is slavery. nt

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DrDan

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #11

15. I don't understand your point.

You are equating walking hand-in-hand with slavery?

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Romulox

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #15

21. The point is that "custom" is not sufficient basis for granting a cultural practice respect.

"You are equating walking hand-in-hand with slavery?"

Inasmuch as they are both Saudi "customs", I am. I am not saying that they are morally equivalent, just that appeal to Saudi "custom" is not a good way to support your argument. :hi:

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RadiationTherapy

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:34 AM
Original message

I truly despise "custom" and "that's how it is" as explanation of anything.

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DrDan

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #21

26. hopefully our President has a more worldly view - embracing differences in customs

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Romulox

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #26

31. LOL. Way to ignore the substance of my post. nt

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HiFructosePronSyrup

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #31

35. Substance?

You compared courtesy with slavery.

Your post had no substance, only fear, hate, and ignorance.

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Romulox

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #35

39. The poster's argument was an appeal to authority based on "custom"; the comparison is apt.

"Your post had no substance, only fear, hate, and ignorance."

LOL. Wouldn't want to "hate" on the custom of slavery! :rofl:

Excellent self-satire! Spot on! ;)

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HiFructosePronSyrup

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #39

42. The poster's argument was an appeal to diplomacy based on custom.

"Wouldn't want to "hate" on the custom of slavery!"

I don't think you're so much concerned about slavery in muslims countries, as much as you're concerned about muslims in muslim countries.

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Romulox

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Wed Jun-03-09 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #42

49. I live in Dearborn, Michigan. Google it, and you'll realize why you're so off base.

"you're concerned about muslims in muslim countries."

And yet I'm unconcerned by living among one of the largest concentrations of Middle Easterners outside of the Middle East. :hi:

I guess I'm just a man of many contrasts! :rofl:

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HiFructosePronSyrup

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Wed Jun-03-09 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #49

52. Ah, the "I've got lots of black friends" argument.

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Romulox

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Wed Jun-03-09 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #52

54. LOL! As opposed to the "baseless allegation of racism" that is wholly unsupported by facts?

:hi:

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John Q. Citizen

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #11

30. Slavery is illegal in that part of the world. But how would you know that?

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Romulox

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #30

33. It continues to exist.

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=slavery+saudi+arabia&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

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John Q. Citizen

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #33

41. It continues to exist all over the world. It was a custom everywhere. But now it's illegal

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Romulox

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #41

47. It is not honest to pretend that Saudi Arabia does not have a specific and continuing history

of slavery that extends into the present day.

At any rate, my point was not to highlight Saudi Arabia's human rights abuses; rather, I just wanted to point out that an appeal to Saudi "customs" is perhaps the single worst argument one can form to justify any particular practice.

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John Q. Citizen

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Wed Jun-03-09 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #47

55. Slavery was legal in Guatemala until 1959. Mexico outlawed slavery 200 years before the US did.

Edited on Wed Jun-03-09 12:16 PM by John Q. Citizen

Lynching blacks was common and customary into mid way in the 20th century in the US.

Customarily, we imprison a much higher percentage per capita of black and brown people than white people.

So I'm not sure what your point is.

General courtesy and politeness is bad when dealing with people from Saudi Arabia? Is that what you mean?

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zbdent

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Wed Jun-03-09 10:01 AM
Response to Original message

2. but watch the "liberal media" go into extreme overdrive pointing out how

Obama is (literally) kissing up to possible enemies, and the oil companies ... all the while conveniently forgetting that Bush did exactly that ...

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GodlessBiker

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Wed Jun-03-09 10:18 AM
Response to Original message

4. You have a problem with men kissing and holding hands?

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RadiationTherapy

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Wed Jun-03-09 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #4

6. I have a problem with the leader of my nation doing that with the leader of another country

gender is irrelevant here as is "custom" in my opinion.

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anigbrowl

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Wed Jun-03-09 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #6

80. I guess you wouldn't like him exchanging bows with the Japanese either

Not everything is a status display, though you seem bent on interpreting it that way.

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DrDan

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:20 AM
Response to Original message

12. so are a same-sex couple, or a husband and wife to be mocked if

if they walk hand-in-hand . . . or greet each other with a peck on the cheek?

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RadiationTherapy

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #12

16. No. See my reply to this silly notion above.

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Ezlivin

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:21 AM
Response to Original message

13. And no personal fouls when you are on the court

The Saudis have a weak defense and you can hit some good three pointers.

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gauguin57

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Wed Jun-03-09 12:17 PM
Response to Original message

56. I don't think anyone should be holding hands with, or kissing, people who treat women as they do.

I do think they deserve a punch in the nose. And worse.

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RadiationTherapy

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Wed Jun-03-09 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #56

59. I tried to avoid this kind of comment and focus on the gestures,

but, yeah, this bothers me a great deal.

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riderinthestorm

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Wed Jun-03-09 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #56

60. Would the Saudi king kiss and hold hands with Hillary Clinton?

I don't have strong feelings about Obama's choices on what he chooses to do in greeting the Saudi king but if the king wouldn't extend the same "courtesy" to Hillary, for example, as a fellow leader of our country, I wouldn't want Obama performing a customary act that wouldn't be extended to everyone. It implies an acceptance of (the pretty shitty) Saudi treatment of women that I'd take exception to.

So if kissing and hand holding is a custom that is equally applied, male and female, then Obama would be remiss in dissing the king. If it's not, then Obama is buying into the Saudis despicable attitudes towards women and I'd be irritated.

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RadiationTherapy

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Wed Jun-03-09 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #60

61. What an excellent point on this issue!

I am embarrassed I did not see this side of it. Thank you for bringing it up.

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mitchum

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Wed Jun-03-09 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #60

63. Don't expect a response from the House of Saud apologists on this thread

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riderinthestorm

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Wed Jun-03-09 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #63

64. Thread killing is apparently my forte as this one's dropping fast.

Any way, the point's moot - Obama's landed and it's all hand shakes and respectful distances amongst the Saudis with Obama.

See now we can rev up on whether this is a diss by the Saudis towards Obama that they didn't want to kiss or hold hands with our Prez. Are they racist? Was their hand holding and kissing Bush cuz of their cozy family relationships over oil (something they don't share with Chez Obama)?

Inquiring minds want to know! Maybe the Saudi experts will weigh in on what it means that the Saudis DIDN'T kiss Obama or hold hands with him??!! :crazy:

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Liberal_in_LA

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Wed Jun-03-09 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #64

83. I'll give it a kick for ya!

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cherokeeprogressive

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Wed Jun-03-09 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #60

71. Hillary is not a "fellow leader of our country". She holds an office that makes her subordinate to

The President of the United States. The LEADER of our country. There is only ONE leader. She's not it.

"It implies an acceptance of... Saudi treatment of women..." It does nothing of the sort. IF Hillary were PRESIDENT, she'd get the same treatment.

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pnwmom

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Wed Jun-03-09 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #71

76. Dream on. If she were President, she would NOT get the same treatment.

Edited on Wed Jun-03-09 05:43 PM by pnwmom

Their fundamentalist religion requires them not to touch women they're not related to.

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pnwmom

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Wed Jun-03-09 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #60

75. Excellent post! n/t

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Jack Rabbit

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Wed Jun-03-09 01:45 PM
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67. A simple bow would show diplomatic respect.

Me? I'd give the Sauds the finger.

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Beacool

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Wed Jun-03-09 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #67

69. I think that he bowed enough the last time they met.

:eyes:

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Dappleganger

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Wed Jun-03-09 02:33 PM
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70. It's all a part of keeping your friends close and your enemies even closer. nt

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WI_DEM

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Wed Jun-03-09 03:10 PM
Response to Original message

72. You know on DU nothing Obama does will satisfy people. Here's the first time a US president has

really made an effort towards the Muslim world in a long time (at least since Carter), and he's still ridiculed for what he does.

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sl8

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Wed Jun-03-09 05:44 PM
Response to Original message

77. How about shaking hands?

Edited on Wed Jun-03-09 05:48 PM by sl8

What would you think about a foreign head of state refusing to shake hands with President Obama, while visiting the United States?

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