Could Black Boxes be equipped with flotation devices?

Orrex

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Wed Jun-03-09 10:09 PM
Original message

Could Black Boxes be equipped with flotation devices?

I'm sure that there are dozens of good reasons why not, but is it impossible, practically speaking?

Or even if the whole box itself couldn't be made buoyant, might it include some kind of breakaway device that pops to the surface and sends out a homing signal?

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flvegan

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Wed Jun-03-09 10:12 PM
Response to Original message

1. How would they work their way out of a submerged plane?

It's not a bad idea, but if they float, they'll just float straight up. If there's no direct open "hole" above them, they're just getting snagged inside the plane.

I don't see why they don't just constantly transmit a signal with all the information to a central information base where it's stored on a hard drive. The "black box" seems a little outdated to me.

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Orrex

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Wed Jun-03-09 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #1

5. Duh. Mount them on the roof.

Nothing says "aerodynamic" like a big cube on the fuselage.

Of course, you make a fine point. I guess there'd have to be some additional automated system for ejecting the box in event of a splashdown.

And the hard drive suggestion is a good one. This question occurred to me, in fact, after browsing the other thread about black boxes sending info to the 'net.

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drm604

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Wed Jun-03-09 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #1

7. That sounds like a good idea.

Have them continuously transmit an encrypted stream of data to a satellite which relays it to ground stations which store the last one or two days of data for all flights. They could use the satellites that they currently use for in flight telephones.

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yodoobo

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Fri Jun-05-09 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #7

32. Satellite uplinks are highly directional

Edited on Fri Jun-05-09 05:45 PM by yodoobo

And antenna stability is about the last thing you have when an aircraft is crashing.

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RB TexLa

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Wed Jun-03-09 10:12 PM
Response to Original message

2. Probably because we don't always have to have them.

Really, there aren't that many airplane crashes where they aren't recovered.

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drm604

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Wed Jun-03-09 10:13 PM
Response to Original message

3. I'm certainly no expert

but it strikes me that those boxes have to be extremely sturdy to survive crashes. Could any kind of flotation device be made that sturdy? I have my doubts.

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Orrex

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Wed Jun-03-09 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #3

8. I wondered about that

That's why I added the bit about the separate buoyant homing device.

However, I could spend all day telling you what I don't know about aircraft design, and we'd still have lots to talk about tomorrow...

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drm604

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Wed Jun-03-09 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #8

16. But that seperate buoyant homing device would have to be able to survive a crash

and still remain buoyant and stay attached to the box.

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TreasonousBastard

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Wed Jun-03-09 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #3

15. I've carried them around, and they are hefty, but...

anything can float if you build the container big enough.

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drm604

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Wed Jun-03-09 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #15

20. Sure

but if something has a density low enough to float, can it survive a crash?

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Angleae

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Fri Jun-05-09 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #3

30. They survive because they're in the back of the plane.

Big crumple zone up front. They're no more sturdy than any other black box.

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babylonsister

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Wed Jun-03-09 10:14 PM
Response to Original message

4. Good question.

You're right, there's surely a good reason why it's not done. Maybe because if there's thousands of pounds laying on top of that box, flotation wouldn't work.

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armyowalgreens

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Wed Jun-03-09 10:16 PM
Response to Original message

6. It seems that if the box could float they would have to search half the ocean to find it.

Currents would carry that box to who knows where. It is better that it sank and stayed in one spot. Hopefully they can obtain robotic dive equipment that can reach that depth. I know such equipment exists, the question is whether or not they can get their hands on it.

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flvegan

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Wed Jun-03-09 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #6

9. The boxes already *ping* from I think up to 4 miles below the ocean for 30 days.

Finding them wouldn't be a hurdle.

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armyowalgreens

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Wed Jun-03-09 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #9

12. hmmm interesting.

Well in that case, it must have something to do with the very low odds of it dislodging from the aircraft. I don't know where it's located, but it is probably buried in that airplane.

If they want to collect data for as long as possible, they wouldn't want a device that dislodges the box because it could disconnect too soon and they would lose critical information.

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conscious evolution

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Fri Jun-05-09 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #12

28. They are buried deep

in the tail section of most aircraft as that is the place where they are most likely to survive a crash with the least amount of damage.

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armyowalgreens

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Wed Jun-03-09 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #9

14. Also, I'd be interested in knowing the distance the ping signal reaches.

Some of them can only be detected if you're within a certain amount of miles.

If the search area is thousands of miles across, that could be a problem.

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flvegan

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Wed Jun-03-09 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #14

17. Yeah, that I don't know. But it seems that if they can register a *ping*

they MUST be able to somehow rig a GPS to it/them. At least, one would think.

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drm604

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Wed Jun-03-09 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #6

10. Those boxes transmit a continuous homing signal.

So if they could float, they would be found by their signal. If it's sitting under miles of water the signal can't be detected.

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frogcycle

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Wed Jun-03-09 10:22 PM
Response to Original message

11. There are plenty of obstacles but

in my opinion it is a reasonable proposal. Sure, it might get caught and not bob to the surface. But generally when a plane hits the water it either already blew up or breaks apart on impact. So the possibility of it popping loose exists - if it were bouyant. And it could be so - just encase it in styrofoam.

Odds of it being found would still be low, but at least marginally improved.

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lapfog_1

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Wed Jun-03-09 10:23 PM
Response to Original message

13. The planes already send a few real time telemetry

It's not a stretch to just add the voice and plane control movements to the telemetry stream. A few data relay satellites and you have world wide coverage.

I had suggested this to my former colleagues at NASA as something that could be done with the Iridium constellation, but there wasn't budget to make it happen, not to mention that the Iridiums were obsolete before they were even launched.

Still...

I just looked up the Iridiums, and it appears that they are still in service... my bad because I thought they discontinued service and were letting them fall to earth as their orbit decayed.

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drm604

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Wed Jun-03-09 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #13

18. What about the satellites they use for in flight phones?

Are those available mid-ocean?

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frogcycle

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Fri Jun-05-09 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #18

23. no, satellites can only stay in orbit over continents

:sarcasm: :)

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drm604

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Fri Jun-05-09 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #23

27. Ha ha

If they're geostationary then they are always over more or less the same spot. If that spot is over a continent then yes, they are always over that continent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geostationary_orbit

So it's entirely possible that the satellites I was talking about are not available mid ocean.

I don't know if they're geostationary, and I don't know whether or not they're not available mid ocean. That's why I asked.

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TreasonousBastard

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Wed Jun-03-09 10:30 PM
Response to Original message

19. Ships and boats have had EPIRB's for years, and some...

planes have carried them on board. These gadgets aren't black box recorders, but they are homing devices, and they get power from the salt water.

Problem is getting them out of the plane and into the water if it goes down. Even if you attach it outside of the plane, there's no guarantee it will unattach itself at the right time.

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backscatter712

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Wed Jun-03-09 10:34 PM
Response to Original message

21. Black boxes have to be really, really, really sturdy.

Edited on Wed Jun-03-09 10:34 PM by backscatter712

After all, they have to survive the forces and fires of a full-scale airliner crash, which tends to be insanely violent.

That means the box has to be made out of strong metals, and very heavy. Making it float, and making the floatation device sturdy enough to survive being slammed into the ground at 700mph, then doused with jet-fuel and flambed, just hasn't been done.

Not an easy engineering challenge, is it?

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frogcycle

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Fri Jun-05-09 06:33 AM
Response to Reply #21

22. the flotation device does not need to survive impact with ground

duh! :)

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Fumesucker

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Fri Jun-05-09 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #22

24. At airliner speeds water is about as hard as ground..

For most practical purposes..

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frogcycle

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Fri Jun-05-09 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #24

26. yes and no

the 700 mph you mentioned would be a augering-in nose-dive like flight 93. nothing survives.

a midair explosion or breakup does not result in the parts hitting at "airliner speed"

most collisions with ground OR water are flatter, many slower as the pilot is making some effort at control (except flying into mountains, perhaps)

Floating seat cushions after a water crash demonstrate that a flotation device could survive some crashes.

Anyway, I was just jerking your chain.

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XemaSab

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Fri Jun-05-09 06:48 AM
Response to Original message

25. Odds are that if you put something that enabled the boxes to pop off

and float to the surface, they would dislodge in the middle of a flight and cause a crash. 'Cause we all know that there have been horrific crashes caused by the stupidest things.

I'm thinking something more like a panel that pops off in high pressure that unleashes a beacon. :shrug:

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Mojo_electro

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Fri Jun-05-09 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #25

29. I see your point..

I'd go with the telemetry stream to the ground, and have the in-craft boxes as a backup.

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SoCalDem

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Fri Jun-05-09 05:44 PM
Response to Original message

31. Why not just have the data uploaded, via satellite, to a secure server

and when the plane lands safely, it gets deleted (making room for future data). This could be for flights over water .

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yodoobo

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Fri Jun-05-09 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #31

33. All you would get would be -normal- data

Satellite uplinks are very directional. When an aircraft is crashing, stability is long gone out the window.

I suppose it could be a backup system, but you would almost never get the last critical seconds of a plane crash with a satellite uplink system

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