According to local news, the 4 Tampa boys were raping that kid almost every day

after practice. In the court scene it was said that there were many witnesses to each incident, that it happened multiple times....I believe the lady's words were after almost every practice.

I really have no sympathy that they are being tried as adults. The fact that they got away with it over and over is testament to a lax system of oversight, and it tells me there should be others getting in trouble for it.

This whole thing is sickening.

$15,000 bail set for teens in middle school rape case


Lee Myers, Raymond Price-Murray, Randall Moye and Diemante Roberts now face adult charges in the alleged rape of a flag-football teammate in a school locker room.



The article further says they tormented that boy for over two months.

Someone in that school was falling down on the job of discipline and oversight.

against the school result in the closure of all the great sports at that school.
When's the last time you heard of the computer club, chess club, or debate team gang raping someone....

They watched, they saw it. It went on for two months.

nt

:sarcasm: :puke:


Just so you know, I totally agree.

was being bullied and investigated. The defendants in the case told the school officials what they had done. The school officials went to the police then and had to ask the victim for confirmation. For once a school was investigating bullying. Let's give them credit for that.

Some "mainstreamed" kid who had some mental problems used to pick on my son while they were waiting for the afternoon bus. Two teachers stood by the whole time gossiping and let the bullying continue. I was furious and saw it for myself. Why even bother having teachers standing out there if they're so busy catching up on gossip and what not that they can't see a kid being hit in the head with a saxophone ten feet away? I had to make arrangements to pick my son up at a different door to the school so they could keep the troubled mental boy who was being "mainstreamed" into a 'normal' academic setting.

So I applaud the coaches and teachers who started the investigation at the school where this child was being terrorized. Middle schools are the worst. At least in this case, someone noticed.

while mentally handicapped children were hit and abused, as well as normal kids.

The problem with taking solace in retaliatory rape (I'm not sure if you're doing this, but post #7 seems to make the connection), other than the sheer hypocrisy of promoting this very same crime as institutional vengeance, is the jailhouse/primate pecking order isn't necessarily the one faux-conservatives like to fantasize about, i.e., sexual predators and white collar criminals at the bottom of the rape pyramid and patriotic garden variety murderers at the top; from what I've read on the subject, gay men and/or nonviolent offenders might suffer the most under this system:

it gets more and more horrifying every day. If the allegations are true, I feel so terrible for that poor boy, and I feel a lot of disappointment in the people that may well have known exactly what was going on.

Enjoy prison, fuckos.

learn very much what that rape they did to that poor boy felt like. And it will
not end in two months
These four, if guilty, deserve what they will get.

the rape that they inflicted upon the one youth. I do, however, wish them suffering in prison for a long, long time.

..FIRED. Shut down sports there for a minimum of 2 years.

Nothing would punish a school worse than that, it's all communities care about. End sports for this school for at least two years for not taking care of this child and leaving him helpless with a pack of rabid wolves. Make sure these monsters are not seen as some kind of heroes for preying on a "weaker" boy.

I'm not saying that it's epidemic, simply that this is not the first case I have heard about. I can't remember or imagine how it came up in conversation, but I do remember that it was not object-rape.

Sorry... just is. I would refuse to go to school to the point of murder, if necessary. I could see once or twice, but after that the school would never see me again. No way someone would walk into that trap for over two months.

Which I would very much resent if you did.

You're implying they have taken a position before a shred of evidence has been presented at a trial.

No I was not implying, I was rather vague because I don't know the woman's name.

I said they were going to be tried as adults.

when it is pretty obvious what I was saying.

I don't do that to others, and I resent it when it is done to me.

I am careful what I write, but I am a retired teacher. Why aren't you more alarmed at the fact that no one was in a supervisory role here? Who was minding the store?

Who was watching out for this boy? Why didn't his peers who stood by and watched say or do something?

And you get testy over my wording?

But I am unwilling to make too many opinions before the evidence is presented. Already I have seen some ridiculous assumptions being made by some posters based on the press story in the original link.

My post was fair and balanced. If there is overblown rhetoric, I suggest you post to their remarks.

I think it is quite right to try them as adults, though I usually oppose that with young teens.

I just think there are some adults who should be held accountable as well.

I have read too many studies which show that the areas of the brain which determine judgment do not fully develop until the early 20s. That is the basic reason we have age limits on driving, marriage, smoking, voting and ability to contract, and drinking. All these age limits are above the age of those arrested. Do, if they are guilty of what has been alleged, deserve severe punishment, yes. But not as adults and not in an adult institution.

And they present a danger to society. Period. They have harmed, repeatedly, if the story is to be believed.

We are allowed ridiculous assumptions, hyperbolic rants and emotional outbursts.

...sexual abuse survivors.

Each story is different, but I can tell you that most victims (90 percent) never report that
they were raped or sexually abused, especially if the victim is a child. There is so much
shame that the victim feels. They are humiliated, degraded and they feel worthless. The
crime itself, puts the victim in an emotionally helpless place--because they are so traumatized by the
rape itself. They become immobilized, like a deer in the headlights.

As you can probably imagine, if a person is repeatedly raped, this continual damage turns the person
into a walking coping mechanism that is practically on autopilot.

I imagine, thought I don't know for sure, that this victim was too ashamed and terrified
to tell a trusted adult. So, he just took it. He knew there were many witnesses who
did nothing to protect him. He probably felt helpless.

The perps probably threatened him too. Perps are very skilled at silencing victims.

I know sometimes that the behavior of a sexual-abuse victim may not make sense to someone
observing on the outside. However, in the mind of the victim--it is all rational and it
is pretty much a matter of surviving minute by minute.

I'm sure we've all had all sorts of things going on when we were young that our parents, or other authority figure adults didn't believe because of our age. Or for those of us who have testicles, there's the expectation that we "man up" and either accept the torment, or reciprocate it.

All girls in the 10-13 age range, like me.

Why did I never report? Aw, geez, so many reasons. Already the bottom kid on the totem pole, you're pretty much sure things will only get worse if you rock the boat. By the time you've been through that, you think your best hope is to disappear and not be noticed anymore, so you try to do that. You CERTAINLY aren't going to make the humiliation worse by trying to explain it to an adult, who you're already convinced can't possibly understand you. You don't want to speak it aloud - that would make it more real! To describe it is to relive it. When I was that age, I wouldn't have done that for a million dollars and a pony, much less for some abstract possibility of "justice," whatever that is.

I still looked up to these girls in some twisted way. I didn't want them to get in trouble because of me. Believe it or not, I STILL just wanted them to like me, or at least stop hating me.

I didn't even recognize it for what it was. I thought rape had to involve a man. What they did was just....I thought, I dunno, playing doctor gone wrong? Beating me up all over including "down there"? I didn't have the language to even begin to talk about it until I was in my 20s.

In some ways, I would think it would be even worse for a boy. Admitting you were violated in that way...on top of everything else?

What you went through is so utterly heartbreaking. I am SO sorry. I can't put it into words... the fact that it happened, the fact that you had to deal with it all alone, the fact that you still just wanted them to like you... you were so young and so vulnerable... I am just so sorry.

I wish I could give you a million :hug: and make it all go away.

:hug: :cry:

But the terrifying thing is that the girls who did that to me were *also* children. It was very much an all-girl 'Lord of the Flies' going on. In a rural area. In the early 80s. When no one would think a slumber party was anything to worry about.

I know what happened to me was awful. At 39, I'm still working on the issues. ("Womyn-only space," safe for me? Oh no, I don't think so!)

But I don't think I'm alone. I can't be. As horrible as it was, it felt too much like The Way Things Are. Pecking orders and all that.

Maybe it won't stop happening until adults realize that no children, yes including THEIRS, are innocent little angels. Until adults stop clinging to that Victorian bullshit idea of childhood as pristine - after all, the Victorian bourgeoisie were totally wrong about women (angel in the kitchen, my left buttcheek), why would anyone think that invented story of childhood would be any more accurate?

When it is same-sex abuse the abusers often take advantage of such homophobia to keep the victim quiet.

And it is by choice, but somehow that is ok in their homophobic world?

Rape = good, gay person = bad.

Sick stuff these kids are learning.

go after another kid?

Maybe they're all victims. I wonder if they'll admit it, now.

a macho sports event.

I remember that locker rooms were usually not supervised. Coaches tend to feel that students deserve privacy. In this case the privacy was the problem.

I've got a pretty good idea he didn't go to his parents for help because he didn't expect any. If predators understand anything, it's how to spot a victim.

That's how abusers get away with things for years. My first thought was "where the hell are the parents, and how could they send him back", but then I remember that thousands of kids are abused every day and for what ever reason, tell no one. They just keep on suffering in silence.

I only hope he gets the support and care he needs now that it's been discovered.

And I can damn near guarantee that from the tone of your message NOTHING like this has ever happened to you. And for that you should feel grateful.

This poor kid was probably so terrorized he didn't know who to turn to or EVEN HOW TO ASK FOR HELP.

How did they find out about this? Didn't he say anything to his parents? Didn't anybody say anything to their parents? It could've been an anonymous tip. Something's just off about this.

...Where the window glass is shaded, not stained. (for the silent witnesses, that is.)

The place has a lot more attendees than you'd think (and than it should).

Here's hoping justice is done for this poor kid.

...regardless of the crime. And this is certainly heinous.

But they were taught to hate "others," to consider them less than human, and thus "deserving"of such treatment.

I do think they should be severely punished, maybe even subjected to the same treatment, but they are still kids. Stupid kids, yes. But kids.

but they are, as my mum used to say, big and ugly enough to face up to what they have done.

Unlike the child in this case. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5775863&mesg_id=5775863

Is there any evidence they were "taught to hate others"? I have a feeling they weren't given much parental teaching at all.

And yes, I agree that they are stupid KIDS. They are just KIDS and it is very tragic. I don't see why they couldn't be charged as youths to be kept away from adult predators, but other DUers have told me that a juvenile charged as an adult will serve time away from adults.

Kids may steal, vandalize, and in unfortunate cases cause the death of someone through reckless behavior.

"Kids" do not systematically subject someone to what these "kids" did to their victim. These "kids" should be subject to whatever the equivalent term would be for an adult who committed a similar crime.

Put them in "juvie" until they hit 18 and then transfer them to prison if the sentence term extends past that point.

People who do this have something miswired in their system and they aren't going to age out of it.

Let them free and they will damage the lives of more people.

Those kids deserve to be branded as sex offenders and sociopaths for what they did. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior, and given what they perpetrated I can't see any benefit to being lenient. If you disagree, then maybe you can volunteer to rehabilitate them...maybe even allow them to live in your neighborhood and "play" with your kids.

Sociopaths cannot be cured. Or, at least not yet. Maybe in the future, but I suspect this would mean gene therapy or some other selective interventional procedure prior to birth.

They weren't "taught" anything that every other kid hasn't been "taught" - and guess what, most other kids don't repeatedly RAPE AND TORTURE innocent people! "Trying them as juveniles" is the equivalent of slapping them on the hand and releasing them at age 18 to rape and torture more people.

ANYONE capable of committing this kind of monstrous brutalization against another person deserves to be behind bars for life. I don't want these sociopaths out in public ever again. They are a menace to society.

Who should be criminally charged.

This did not happen without someone in charge being aware of something, children today are watched far more closely in school than back in the day.

Kids are being strip searched for advil and yet football players can get away with something like this for months?

I want to see adults do time at the very least for negligence.

I worked in a charter school, and part of the "business model" because all Charters have to start being self sufficient, was hiring teachers without accreditation for some interesting reasons. The School was an arts school and the argument was to bring in professionals working in the artistic fields that the children were learning about...

That's all well and good, but the school also paid teachers only for class time... We were on the clock, and not salary so it meant that during passing time almost every teacher was "off the clock" and not being paid. It allowed the school to save lots of money. In my mind that is absurd. It meant that during the time that students were going to their next class there was no one except the principals, administrative staff and 3 security guards on the clock for hundreds of kids. Teachers would lock their doors during the passing, and they are right not to be expected to work if they are not paid, but I guarantee you that it made illicit behavior more likely to happen. There was very minimal hallway supervision and in the end it led also to the lengthening of hallway passing time and the shortening of classtime... When I went to school we had 5 or 4 minutes to get to class... now these kids get 10-12 minutes.

Give a stupid kid 10 minutes to get to class and a lot of bad stuff goes down for sure.

You can't cure sociopaths, you can only lock them up or eliminate them. They should be tried as adults because sociopaths teens always become sociopaths adults, and thus these monsters need to be locked up for the rest of their lives.

I've only known a few in my 45 years, but there's no "soul" there to rehabilitate.

I've read that 5% are true sociopaths with another 15% who are borderline and will follow, obey or even worship the 5%. However, with all the stories coming out of FL and TX, I'm wondering if those numbers haven't taken a serious jump. Either that, or they've all gone south.

Were these kids basically into torture? Sounds like they have some serious psychological problems.

This makes me sick to my stomach. Even if they could be rehabilitated, they wouldn't deserve it. Not even after fifty years would they deserve it.


I say lock them up for 25 years and then give them a choice, the DP or another 25 years.

I have never known any football players in high school, or seen sports stars in the media, who weren't abusive, loutish, monstrous people. What do you expect when you have a gang of steroid cases who are told to crush the competition?

I've known decent athletes in HS and I was on the soccer team. The athletic atmosphere can be very negative but in the end it's up to the person to decide how to act.

How bigoted and prejudiced can you get? Jason Taylor, Brett Favre, Michael Phelps, Cal Ripkin, etc....these football players and sports stars whom you have seen in the media...they are abusive and monstrous? Where do you get this? And I can assure that even my high-school football team were all normal kids who just happened to play a sport. I was a typical effeminate band nerd, and they were actually civil to me, even dicussed working out, etc.

but I had some brutal experiences with Football players, and steered clear of them all throughout my Highschool years... I ALWAYS chose Phys Ed in the last period of the day so I wouldn't have to go back into the locker room to have a shower. Someone had been shot to death in our locker room in a football related tussle and I was going to spend as little time as possible subjecting myself to ridicule and possible torture by larger men suffering from a lack of maturity and an overabundance of testosterone (if not steroids... and there were steroids at my big football school).

And I'm someone who was on the track team... and taught a lot of the football guys how to throw a discus with a decent spin...

Some were decent, but others were meatheads and I don't necessarily fault the poster for pointing that out.

That is not what the original poster said (i.e., that many athletes at that age are aggressive, tend toward bullying, etc.). I would not have responded to that. What he said was that EVERY football player (that he he has SEEN )(?)(inc. high-school) is abusive and "monstrous", as are adult football players, adult athletes, sports "stars" etc. That athlete and predator was the "same thing". That is just bizarre and makes no sense. And do "athletes" or even football players, past or present, not read DU? Some of our finest democratic politicians played sports (even -- gasp! -- football!!). Even many people on this board, I am sure.

The victim in this case was ALSO a high-school football player! So he's a predator too?

I'm a competive bodybuilder. Don't get me started on the nonsense and assumptions I hear about myself all the time.

When I was growing up, playing sports and being in shape were considered GOOD things. Man, no wonder Americans are fat and lazy. Regular vigorous exercise, sports, athletics....all suspect now.

Congrats

Because football players can never do wrong. As long as they keep winning. If they need a boy to rape and abuse every week to keep their winning season on, well, who gives a damn about some nerd who can't throw a football anyway?

Please remember that when discussing this.

now why don't you run around telling people to stop calling bush and cheney war criminals.

Let the judge be impartial.

but they never admit guilt.

and phrasing words about the accusations before the law is carried out is the same as joining a posse for a shootout, hanging, or burning - the old west and east way of taking the law into the hands of enraged people. Word posses are the same thing.

What are law and statutes for if not straight arrow investigation, trial, verdict, sentence? Our role - a DU role - is to be careful. Blast the crime, blast the sociology, but wait for the tests and presented evidence before calling them criminals and sociopaths at their age - without (presumed) previous criminal recotds. Blame the culture of hating gays first, the arrogance of excusing sports superior players and managers, the church and home setting that foments hate.

The last time this rolled around on DU there were only a very few posters who would admit that there almost certainly had to be adult tolerance of this behavior at the school.

Lots of calls for the kids to be crucified, very few for investigations of the adults in charge.

We really don't like to have it rubbed in our noses how sick our society is.

Yeah, the adults in charge should be punished to the fullest extent. But I don't get how this makes us a sick society?

Think we will see any?

that is known by all but not prosecuted? And apathetic schools? Continuous dehumanization of not just our enemies, but of our own fellow citizens?

"Oh... Uh... Boys will be boys, right? Heh... I mean, that's completely normal for... Don't sue us..."

When I reported that the boys were habitually knocking down the girls and pulling up their skirts. "Boys will be boys."

I was not surprised, a few years later, when the high school in the same neighborhood was reported to have a clique that raped girls competitively for points. If you're old enough, you may remember them. They were called the "Spur Posse."

Just a response on the Spur Posse -- I was in High School in that city during that time, although I never met one of them. (Thank God)

Unfortunately, what they did wasn't necessarily illegal, although it was horrible and disgusting and truly sad. (There may have been some statutory rape, since they targeted girls in junior high and high school, but most of the boys were also in high school, some were 18-20)

Their points system was targeted to screwing the 'good girls' and 'virgins.' (More points)

Here's the Wikipedia description:

The Spur Posse was a group of high school boys from Lakewood, California, who used a point system to keep track of and compare their sexual conquests. The founder of the group chose the name "Spur Posse" when a favorite basketball player of theirs, David Robinson, was signed to the San Antonio Spurs. The group came to national attention on March 18, 1993, when the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department arrested a number of the members for various sexual crimes. Prosecutors later dropped all but one of the charges after determining most of the encounters were consensual, although with underage girls.

Until society is willing to grant them the rights of adults, they should never be given the responsibilities of adults in the eyes of the law. If you're too stupid to get it, you have no business being involved in the law-making process.

Not calling anyone here stupid.

Especially at 14...I know it's difficult to do given how cruel thse boys are, but we cannot impose adult responsibilities and adult consequences on people who are not allowed to vote, drive, sign legally binding contracts, gamble, consume alcohol / tobacco, sign their own persomission slips, hold most jobs, or serve in the military. With aympathy to the victim and the community, it's patently absurd...Rehabilitation is the only option at this age.

let's see how tough they really are. (NOT)

:evilfrown:

Cancel the school athletic programs for a couple of years and dump the coaches/instructors who were all turning a blind eye to this abuse. And they had to be turning a blind eye if it had been going on for so long and so many others knew about it.

... with weekly competitions at the farmers market.

reported it.

This article says they found out when a fight broke out on the school grounds. Don't coaches monitor the locker rooms? Or someone?

The parents seem to be in denial.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/criminal/article1006893.ece

" TAMPA — Students said they heard him scream.

One told investigators the 13-year-old boy fought back, yelled for his attackers to stop and fell to the ground in a defensive position. Those details emerged Wednesday as four Walker Middle School classmates faced a judge, accused of raping a teammate multiple times with a broom handle and a hockey stick in the school locker room.

Assistant State Attorney Kimberly Hindman outlined the state's case against the four as prosecutors brought adult charges of four counts of sexual battery against each of the juveniles.

She said the state will present evidence that the youngster endured a two-month reign of terror, apparently in silence.

Neither the victim nor witnesses told anyone in authority. And the attackers kept after the 13-year-old, taunting him repeatedly in school hallways: "We're going to get you today," the victim said he was told."

that's the only good thing I can see coming from this.

I do not agree with trying juveniles as adults under any circumstances, and because they are not adults they are the responsibility of an adult. There is at least one adult at the school guilty of criminal negligence and and four parents who need to be sued for unleashing these cretins on society.

They have to prove that the parents knew they were doing this to the victim.

I have no doubt that some adult in authority at that school was aware something was going on. I know for a fact that adults in authority knew I was being viciously bullied in grammar school and no one ever did anything at all about it.

Kids today are far more closely watched in school than they were back then. We are having kids strip searched for Advil for crying out loud.

I think it is a legal avenue that should be explored.

Are you saying that teenagers are not responsible for their illegal acts and that an adult who was suppose to be overseeing them 24/7 is responsible?

Juvenile courts were not designed to admonish and provide incarceration of minors for committing major crimes such as murder and rape. I suppose that you would think that an adolescent that plots the murder of his parents in order to collect an inheritance should be sent to a juvenile lock up until he/she is eighteen years of age and then released. It is my understanding that juvenile courts are seriously restricted in their sentencing. Maybe you can comprehend that when a minor commits a heinous crime that the only recourse at the present is to charge them as adults. This does not mean that they will be incarcerated in the general prison population while they are still minors. People are deluding themselves when they don't comprehend that some minors are vicious anti-social psychopaths and may require extend treatment if there is any hope of them becoming productive citizens.

I'm just of the opinion from a purely Constitutional perspective that someone who cannot vote, cannot enter into a contract, drive, drink ALGOL, etc should not be subject to the adult justice system.

Now, that said, I'm well aware how the current system works and I would hope the courts do whatever is necessary to separate these young sociopaths from people they could harm for a long time.

Cases like this bring up another issue and that is we are all cry for blood; we want vengeance for the victim. Lock 'em up and let 'em get prison-raped for 15 years! But a long jail sentence will likely do no more than turn them into hardened criminals. They need treatment or at the very least we need some serious work on a scientific level to find out what is actually wrong with people who commit acts like this and that will be the first step to preventing it.

the mother, in fact is a Clearwater Police Officer.

So what does that say?

I really can't imagine her approving of or deliberately unleashing a 'cretin' on society knowingly.

Parents are generally liable for the damages their children cause; they don't have to know about it.

and clowning around. One mother say her son does not deserve the accusations that were made.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/criminal/article1006893.ece

Serious denial.

" Prosecutors say two of the attacks occurred between March 1 and April 24, and two other incidents between April 27 and April 29.

Hindman said the attacks involved penetration and called them "an intentional terroristic act where the victim was held down."

The suspects' relatives say they don't believe their children could do such a thing.

"I just don't think that he deserves this," Ebony Watts, Roberts' mother, said in court.

"Deserves what?" the judge asked.

"The accusations that were made," Watts said.

Defense attorneys attacked the state's case. They questioned witness statements, the length of time it took to file a complaint and the lack of physical evidence disclosed so far.

Attorneys for Myers and Moye talked of their clients having less culpability than the other two.

Roberts' attorney, Lanell Williams, quickly dismissed that argument.

"We have no evidence as to which defendant is less or more culpable," Williams said.

Myers' mother, Judy, said her son told her the kids were all just "clowning around" in the locker room. Myers said he held the victim's hand for "five seconds tops," Judy Myers said in court.

"They all were laughing, including the boy," she said her son told her."

No need to register.

(Thanks for the link)

I wouldn't have to work ever again.

People still, to this day, actually say, "Boys will be boys."

just like the our true blue. Dick Cheney's protege's

Excuse me? Even with monitoring, it's not safe to have them loose. They should be locked up.

:grr:

:mad:

But what-the-fuck kind of message does that bail amount send?

sick tickets. I doubt locking them up for years will do any good , but they will come out hardened criminals even more dangerous to society. Yes they deserve punishment and need some serious counseling

Hold everyone responsible accountable.

the victim had been female...would the press even care? Women and girls are raped and beaten hourly...not much pity for them. Raping mentally-challenged young women. Raping women in nursing homes.

Rapists are sub-human and should be treated as such.

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bastards up and throw away the key!

The solution is that the juvenile system needs to have the mechanism for harsh punishments for serious offenses. But they should always be tried separately.

It was done multiple times. Scary stuff. I am usually a bleeding heart about such things, but this is a terrible thing.

:kick:

.