We're not stupid.

We're not naive.

We know that change doesn't happen overnight. We know that there are limits to what a President can do. That there are limits to what Congress can do. And limits to what the courts can do.

We understand politics. We know exactly what's going on. We've seen it time and again.

Fact: Obama can suspend the investigation and discharge of gay service members RIGHT NOW. All BY HIMSELF. This, despite the apologists who will tell you that DADT can only be overturned by Congress. Yes, that's true. Obama cannot, by himself, eliminate DADT. But he can stop it from being implemented for as long as we have troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Confronted with this fact, the apologists shift tactics and declare that this fixes nothing. That Obama would prefer to wait for legislation that will eliminate DADT completely, rather than use a stop/gap method to halt it temporarily. That the politic reality can't be changed by waving a magic wand.

Well, duh.

Nobody expects a magic wand. But what Obama wants is not what WE want, and it's not what America wants. America wants an end to DADT. And what WE want is for Obama to step up and be the "fierce advocate" he claimed to be. The man who campaigned under the promise of change.

That man would suspend DADT. He would do it for several reasons. First, because it is the height of idiocy to claim that the policy cannot be changed because we are too busy fighting two wars.

You know what would help out with the fighting two wars thing? NOT FIRING HIGHLY SKILLED PERSONNEL FOR NO GOOD REASON.

Number two: to demonstrate to the Pentagon foot-draggers that he is the Commander in Chief. And that WHILE he is Commander in Chief, he will not allow ignorance and bigotry to remain a barrier to public service. You don't think there were officers telling Roosevelt and Truman that the armed forces weren't ready to be desegregated? There is NEVER a good time to confront bigotry for many people, especially priveledged people who've never been discrimminated against.

And, most importantly, to send a message. Not just to GLBT people, but to Congress and the Justice Department and all of America, that he meant what he said. That he truly believes in equality for all people. That he is ready to lead on this issue.

THAT'S what we want from Obama, more than anything else. Not a magic wand; not an instant fix to all our problems. We want him to take a stand, to prove that he's willing to do what he said he'd do, to show that he's willing to fight for us.

We want LEADERSHIP from the man. And THAT is what has been sadly lacking since he took office.

He has NOT suspended DADT. He has NOT commented (seriously) on the recent, historic gains in New England and Iowa, nor on the set back in California. He has NOT had the FDA lift the ban on gay men giving blood (for which the Red Cross has been pleading for years). He has NOT set forth any plan to begin the repeal of DOMA.

He is the President of the United States. And his silence on these issues is just as eloquent as any statement he could possibly make.

We don't expect a magic wand. We expect LEADERSHIP. We are entitled to it, as tax-paying members of this society. And, instead, we are being roundly IGNORED.

Don't expect us to take that lying down.

I do think there are some reasons for his focus being elsewhere - after all, we don't expect presidents to come in on their first day in office with their campaign platform and roll it all into one executive order. I have a hunch that the earliest you'll see any action on this is in august - I can't say why, it's just a hunch. But you make many good points, and make them well. I do hope you'll send a copy of this to the White House (though perhaps minus the INTERNET CAPS).

Well articulated, this is how I feel as a Democrat and an American.

We need all of our trained service members at this time. If the Korean War was the front that finally integrated the service in fact, then perhaps Bush's wars in Iraq and Afghanistan could be the wars that finally bring about the end of DADT. And then the environment for ending DOMA will that much more positive. Who would deny war heroes their rights on American soil? It wouldn't be very hard to sell "Equality is Patriotic!" in that atmosphere.

Obama ought to take a lead on this. Because of his campaign promises, because the Republicans might try to steal this issue and this portion of the "Democratic Base" if he doesn't (am I the only one that suspects that Cheney and Megan McCain, and perhaps others, might be willing to listen where "Blue Dogs" haven't the nerve to even consider?), because it's the right thing to do... and because he can.

There is no argument for not at least taking the stop gap measure of halting investigations/dismissals pending Congressional re-addressing of DADT (10 USC 654, as struggle4Progress has led me to memorize the legal code in our "discussions"). No compelling argument, anyway... except fear of political fallout with the "center"... which I think ought to be measured by Democratic politicians at this point against political fallout from the "left". Which "voter bloc" do they really want to jeopardize here?

You're spot on Toasterlad... cheers. :toast:

:kick:

:applause:

Or reveal how baseless and silly their "arguments" are.
Curious to see which tact they will take.

Self delusion is a powerful drug, my guess is at least one will make an ass of itself in response.


:applause:

But now that he's in the big chair suddenly he's moving to the right, breaking a whole lot of promises, and totally silent on everything he could do to help us.

It's ridiculous to think that Obama doesn't know exactly what he could do, and how easily he could do it, to help our community. But helping us is off the agenda. We have become toxic.

I think he has a long term goal of making himself acceptable to the center-right, the way Bill Clinton was eventually acceptable to them, and Obama thinks that helping us even once will kill any chance of that happening.

That usually means:

a. The post is spot on, but people fear responding will get them flamed.

or

b. The post was good that any reply is inadequate.

This thread is both.

I'll get 40+ recs and 4 responses sometimes lol. Makes me feel dangerous! I kind of like it. :evilgrin:

:applause: :applause: :applause:

:kick:

To support them and any straight allies until this is settled once and for all, and then they should all come out at once and demand to be discharged until the law is changed. I'll bet the Generals would push for it to be changed when they see a good chunk of their Army go bye bye.

The gay rights movement has accomplished many things- one of which is that the government doesn't have the power to threaten gay people with a life of ruin by stamping "HOMOSEXUAL" on a piece of paper.

If the draft is restored, there will be line of young men outside induction centers wearing "I'm a homosexual and I'm telling" t-shirts. They will show up an all sorts of things, one would imagine.

administration he destroy himself and the remainder of his only term. By ordering the military to ignore a law!

Executive Order or just a order to the military puts a seal of approval on every circumvention of the law by executive order or Justice Department "memo".

OKKKAYYY!!!!

but he's not that strong a person. 30%. That is the figure. 30% oppose the repeal of DADT. He stands with them, the minority.

as doing the right thing. he's gone to the right, and by doing that, he will lose in 2012, because he has lost his base.

Who will beat him?

First of all, DADT will be repealed after health care "reform" is passed; probably next year. If not, will a republican president repeal it?

Second, "his base" is not all that upset about this.

I thought his base consisted of democrats, not fundies.

Oh well, learn something new every day.

I certainly didn't claim to speak for them; like you did.

expound. Who is his base and why aren't they upset?

(and I don't think this will have any effect on 2012 either. I just want him to do the right thing and lead).

But who is his base and why don't they care?

And he sure as shit has lost me. This "smooth as silk" used car salesman has pulled the wool over my eyes for the last time. Who gives a shit who wins the election in 2012. Not a damn bit of difference.

Otherwise I may get the idea you are full of shit. Too late already got that idea (damn)
Who did I claim to speak for? I just said I thought his base were Democrats. In case you didn't know this, Democrats don't care much for discrimination or bigotry, if they have changed so much that this is no longer the case then perhaps I am no longer among them. My bad I guess.

And I stand by what I said.

And, now Obama is discriminating, and a bigot, because he hasn't tackled this issue in the first five months. Wow!!

I suggest you re-read your post, or take a remedial english class or something.

Also, just because you implied his base is among the 30% for this policy rather than the 70% against it, does not mean I agree with you.

I never said anything about Obama being a discriminating bigot, again, learn the language, it will help you understand the words that others type.

We need education reform as well, you really should get back on that little yellow bus so that you may learn to have a conversation without denying what you say while placing words in someone else's mouth.

you dont want a republican president.
but i would like a president who had the cajones to do whats right.
and his base wants DADT thrown out. he can find the time to do whats right . you are saying he cant chew gum and walk at the same time. he can.

"primary challenge?" It's happened before. And never count the Clinton Machine out. Bill would give up sex if he could get back into the White House in any way, shape, or form.

Well, just kidding about the giving up sex part.

n/t

Obama's feet dragging, but that's even better than a republican that doesn't give a fuck about gays. Obama will address DADT when he is ready.

You people have been keeping us down with that "lesser of two evils" crap for decades. Been there, done that. I'm never voting for a candidate who doesn't support full equality again. On ANY level. If you want to blame me when a Romney or a Palin gets elected, knock yourself out. But it will actually be YOUR fault for abandoning us for so long.

And frankly, would life be any different for GLBT people right now under McCain? Sure doesn't seem so. McCain would have done exactly what Obama has done for us: nothing.

Is this a serious question? Does your life soley revolve around "gay issues"? I am not trying to be rude, but there are a lot of issues that all Americans have a common interest in seeing corrected. McCain would be far worse for gays than Obama ever will be.

nt

Stay home, vote for a 3rd party..... etc.

Hell, if that happens, I may vote Republican myself.

And I just heard that Congress made time to pass the Detainee Photographic Records Protection Act... specifically allowing the White House to not release any more photos under the FOIA if they don't feel like it. Seems like Congress is more than willing to jump on any legislation that Obama feels like pressing for...

Wouldn't want to speed his roll though...

About 80%.

And what a silly little argument it is!

"He will Destroy himself by helping teh Gay"
Gotta love predictability!

Somehow stop-gapping a destructive and bigoted policy that most americans AGREE is stupid would be the same as putting "a seal of approval on EVERY CIRCUMVENTION OF THE LAW"

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

What is it you want to destroy any possiblity of repeal of these laws?

How do you figure I don't want this discriminating law repealed?
Is this put words in my mouth day?

I not only want this law to disappear, I want our President to protect our gay soldiers from being fired while "the debate" is being argued in congress.
He can do that you know, he is The President of the united States and the Commander and Chief of the military - there was a big election and everything.

Please read before posting replies, it saves on confusion.

Just out of curiosity, why to you wish DADT to continue anyway, I just don't get why anyone would and I am curious about it.

The law to which you refer specifically authorizes him to suspend it. How is exercising the law "ignoring" it?

10 U.S.C 12305:

It is well within Obama's authority as CiC to suspend DADT, indeed, as others have pointed out, he is practically compelled to do so, given the urgent need of the military.

Given that the vast majority of Americans support the end of DADT, I fail to see how suspending it would "destroy" him.

But, hey! Thanks for playing!

to speak to the people of tolerance and justice on behalf of the LGBT community. Based on his words spoken during the campaign about being a "strong advocate" for equality,his dedication to seeing the end of DOMA and DADT, etc., I for one thought this is exactly what he would do if elected. Guess I was wrong to "assume".

Thank you.

:thumbsup:

An overwhelming majority of Americans support ending it and a certain theocracy I won't name out of fear for offending certain people allows its GLBT citizens to serve (making it obscene for any nominally secular nation to not do the same). It reminds me of same-sex marriange in Ireland: 63% of the population supports it, but the two largest parties are scared to implement it.

Obama's focus is on health care and getting the economy back on tract. Getting American jobs.


If he did this move at this time it would change the debate in America from health care to Gay's in the military. Obama knows there is a small window to get real change in health care and he doesn't want to let anything get in the way.

Its hard enough to get the media to talk about health care now with all their sponsors coming from Ins company.

Give the guy some time and I believe everything will fall into place

He can fix this in a heartbeat. Three days later, he can go back to concentrating on other things and no one will remember DADT except idiot rethuglicans. So what's new?

There were people like you back in the 50's, too. People who could always find something more important to focus on then equality.

Now is the moment to agressively use the bully pulpit to drive home the argument that DADT is immoral, and for President Obama to use his position as commander in chief to suspend the discharge of honorable GLBT service men and women.

I am actually pretty pleased with him on most things, but his ignoring/fumbling important gay issues is a huge disappointment.

It is the trade-off for him wanting to court Republican votes for his 2012 run, I guess.

n/t

So I take issue with that blanket statement. Other than that I say your post is right on the money and I look forward to when Obama gives this subject the attention it deserves and takes a bold stand on the matter. Equal rights for all, it's just that simple.

Julie

And Rachel Maddow is so hot. I just had to say that. But don't tell my "not wife" of 15 years. She gets really jealous when I watch her show

Well done! K&R.
:kick: :applause:

:applause:

Kay and Are'd

he became President, I didn't expect him to show leadership afterward. There are many things he could change and hasn't. Mostly he has gone along with what was. I had hoped he would have shifted even 10% to the left, (only because the DU supporters said he was so progressive) but that hope has dimmed. He has always taken the go along to get along route in his career. His status as President doesn't seem to have changed that outlook.

With his poll numbers, he should have been able to ram through just about anything he wanted. Hell, Bush was able to do it when his numbers were in the basement. I knew I would be disappointed, but I didn't know how bad it would be.

And, before his apologists come in and tell us how hard it is to herd dems, I say, a true leader would know how to do it.

zalinda

It is not the role of President to herd the Senate and given that 15 Democrats are signed up to oppose him no it is not so easy to herd dems.

As far as being a Leader, he was a better Leader than the Candidate he beat in the Primaries and the GE.

However that is somewhat goiung off the subject, the President does not even need to issue an Executive Order to do this, under 10 USC - U.S. Code - Title 10: Armed Forces (January 2004), DADT can be suspended.

It is just a question of does he know and how do people let him know.

Although I do not remember President Bartlett pushing very much legislation (that was covered in series 6 where because of his lack of a legacy he found new wings).

The gay segment of the population is being scapegoated by the GOP as a quick-and-easy means of rallying their base, and Obama knows it. I don't believe that Obama has abandoned his promises. I jsut think he is too clever to fall into the trap of the despicable Repugnant Party--why this Party still has a voice, having failed so miserably in the recent past is beyond me.

Lives continue to be destroyed by this evil form of terrorism of our distinguished military personnel--this is the terrorism of "Don't Ask Don't Tell".

One would think that the military would be much more focused on truly ugly incidents of religious prosecution such as those which have taken place at sites such as the Air Force Academy--presumably a place where our developing military are "trained". At the present time, it appears from widespread reports, that they are being trained to hate, discriminate and step on the rights of those with differing religious practices from the more commonplace denominations.

Intolerance is intolerance. As a nation, we are being asked to "support our military" which a grateful nation would, in most instances, not hesitate to do fervently. But can we?

But while this ugly pattern of discrimination and hate continue to be promoted throughout the military with the result that lives are being destroyed should a gay person even so much as show affection or marry his chosen spouse, then clearly the military is going too far and must be reigned in. Otherwise, it is truly a powerless and impotent body.

Other developed countries are having absolutely no problem at all incorporating gays into the military. Why does the United States have this problem? Why should a gay soldier be forced to listen to tales of a buddy's girlfriend, wife or family--but be forbidden any expression of his own feelings?

The United States military as it currently stands is wrong-headed, unjust and a failure in the matter of fair treatment of soldiers who have proven themselves battlefield worthy and highly competent.

One of our brave gay men confronted the terrorists directly on United Flight 93, yet his tale is conveniently forgotten, as have been so many other such tales of valor.

End the discrimination. End the hate. It is past time for America to be the leader it is supposed to be. The people want it, have demanded it. Why are we still caving in to unjust bigotry in our nation's military?

Let us all "support the troops" in future, because the system is one of fairness and equality.

We need a leader, and if Obama doesn't want to lead then he needs to get the hell out.

for wonderful people like my nephew, friends, and former students.

Sometimes when I don't catch on quickly to new technology like texting I catch grief. I'm told "Good God don't you know it's 2009?"

Well when I hear that we are still keeping down a group of people based solely upon whom they love well I have to question what does the fact that it's 2009 have to do with anything? It might as well be 1809, 1709, or 1609.

I don't expect Obama to carry a wand but I do expect him to be the Commander and Chief and stop this insane policy.

:applause:

The rights you have as a citizen are not the rights you have as government property, because that's what you are defined as by the government.

One thing that's also clear: military rules in general have very little gray area, cut and dry. When you are in violation, even if it's an insane rule, such as enlisted cannot date officers, you are in violation. Not saying it's right. Not saying it's just.

That's part and parcel of why I only did one tour, because I wanted to feel like a human being with rights again.

When you are in the military, it's a completely different planet from "out here."

stopping the firings NOW. But it doesn't fit his "timetable" in your scenario. It's pathetic.

Maybe, just maybe, all the reasons that are being ascribed to him as to why he has not acted RIGHT NOW are not the case at all.

But proceed with the Obama rage, by all means. It seems there's nothing else that satisfies right now on this subject.

Adieu.

Because I can certainly oblige if you insist. You are no friend to GLBT rights. Ciao. Ta.

And that's a big part of my point.

Hello?

Out here, we think an Executive Order will "fix it."

Having been in the military, I can tell you, there might be some unexpected consequences.

I still say, give Obama time.

He's got to break up the evangelical cult that has taken control of the military -- operating openly in the Pentagon to recruit Christian activists to subvert the Constitution. They have already turned the AF Academy into an Evangelical seminary. Someone needs to put a stop to this -- and quick.

is backward thinking and bigoted, and it is the fact that our heterosexual troops are so backward that means injustice must prevail. How proud they must all be, to stand alone with Turkey among our NATO allies as being too weak to serve beside their gay fellow citizens. We are the only 'Western Democracy' whose military people say they are incapable of service in a non discriminatory military. What the French can do, our troops can not. This is what you are saying. They lack honor and bravery that is displayed by their counterparts in over 20 other nations. They don't have it in them, and must be coddled as ignorant and backward, that is the whole of your argument.

Definitely not all of the military: part of the military still hasn't adjusted to racial desegregation. Does that mean we should rollback racial desegregation?

The counter assertions are that the impatient ones are "raging". The alternative is "blind trust". It is blind because he has literally done absolutely nothing visible to suggest any movement at all on this issue. Hardly a word at all really, other than the occasional "I'm committed" kind of comment. Alternately, he's done many things which make one uncomfortable, whether positions on individual court cases, letting expulsions continue, or honoring Rick Warren. Basically, we're watching the river rise and assuming the boat is coming. The rage may be a bit strong, but the blind faith is without foundation.

You had rights to go back to.

The rules are there, but only straights don't have to follow them.

Civilian.

I don't quite understand why so many on this site seem to think it's okay to ask our friends in the GLBT community to continue to put their equality on hold.

"Wait, it's not the right time" is the same song that has been sung to every group that has been at a disadvantage in this country. It's what we hear about every kind of progressive change - when are we going to stop catering to bigots and regressives?

If not, kindly fuck off.

Some are never satisfied.

Then we can wait for you to start "bitching".

Disgusting.

during Clinton's presidency. At least Obama has offered to clean up his mess. Patience is a virtue. I suggest you show some gratitude. If McCain won in November, do you think he would touch this issue?

"has offered' :rofl:

less than 6 months into his presidency? Right. Others here feel the same way I do. There are more important things for Obama to be dealing with now.

Others feel the same way people do about bombing abortion clinics. Does that make it right?

:rofl:

:thumbsdown:

your next post. Matthew Sheppard? Really? Damn son. :rofl:

I let you bait me into losing my temper, and acting like a jackass. You're not worth the attention. But thanks for bringing me back to earth with that "pony" nonsense. Talk about over the top.

My apologies to everyone else for buying into this shit and helping yank the thread off track.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

You are also a rude and insensitive ass.
You come into this thread just to taunt people that want the rights of other americans?

Justice deferred is justice denied.
If you feel the need to pick a fight with my fellow democrats I suggest you rethink the wisdom of it.

No one here needs my help or defense against the likes of you, I just dislike assholes. ASSHOLE.

nt

Just how does it feel to have someone's hand so completely up your ass that it moves your lips? I guess I could ask Clarence Thomas, but he's blessedly silent in public.

STFU and go to hell.

and angrily showed us how prejudiced you are. Congratulations. What courage!

Great post.


:kick:

:thumbsup:

:applause: :yourock: :applause:

may be too young to remember how the Reagan administration came in like gangbusters and immediately laid out their plans and by and large stuck to them. They did this with a Democratic Congress in the first two years (partly because of the "moderate" Democrats, who enabled him every step of the way).

:applause:

:hi:

RL

Here's my DADT fantasy. A thousand LGBT troops standing united and saying:

"You don't want us here? FINE. We're sick of helping you killing Iraqis for empire and we're sick of helping you round up and torture the so-called "Taliban" who are 9 times out of 10 nothing more than Afghanis resisting US occupation.

We're here, we queer, and you're too fucking late. We know from experience that you're just going to chapter us out without benefits after we return from our last stoploss anyway. How does it feel to lose a thousand troops overnight, you fuckers? "

Of the 250 soldiers kicked out for "telling" since Obama took office, how many of them were less than 3 months shy of honorable discharge and full benefits for life?

That's what the Army is doing these days at least, kicking folks out when they can't use them anymore to save money on benefits. If they repealed DADT, they'd lose a big ol' cash cow. Gay troops are a "get out of paying benefits free" card for the US government. Hey, more tax money to give to the corporate contractors. :grr:

Of course I think DADT should be repealed yesterday. But I also think LGBT troops should be able to join the courageous resistance against the idiotic wars Bush started and Obama continues.

Just my take.

K&R

It's frustrating to see so many of these magic wand apologists, but at least here in this thread, they seem few.

Good post. :thumbsup:

Every day I choose a new person to be my favorite person for the day and guess what - you're it today! Hooray for you. It is a coveted position, but there are no awards or perks other than my undying admiration for 24 hours.


Seriously, that was a terrific post you made - it covered everything I have been thinking for the last couple of weeks. Good on you.

By firing officers such as Lt. Dan Choi who were experts in Arabic translation, it is almost as if George W. Bush wanted to put our nation at a disadvantage in the wars that he started. Obama seems to have no problem following in his predecessor's footsteps.

Kudos to Toasterlad ..... this post nails the issue .... and Obama. I, like many others, am running out of excuses for
the, "yes we can", man. The squeaking wheel gets the grease .... we need to ALL be raising hell about DADT and the
other issues that affect our community. No more Mr. Nice Gay. I would like to see Toasterlads original post copy
pasted into hundreds of thousands of email, and sent daily to every elected official in the US, and to the editor of
every newspaper. Often.

Just wait:wtf:
K&R

He needs to stand by his promise. We need all the help we can get in the military. Well over 13,000 kicked out of the military because of bias crap makes no sense. I have it when a politician does not keep his promise.