Do you think that deep in our hearts we're all basically evil?

:rofl:

Good and evil are irrelevant concepts.

You must be confusing morality with religion.

With bastard filling.

,...in coping with that fear.

Portnoy is us; innocently evil, until conscience interfeers....

That's everything, that is the it. That is the decision that everything rest on.

If people are evil, then they must be controlled, systems must be put in place to cater to their evil while controlling them, and they must be beat down and dumbed down, and made submissive.

The truth is most people are not evil, they are more good then bad. But it has been in the past most bad people rise to power. So the systems of the world do not reflect the values of the world. Plato spoke of this 1000s of years ago.

Furthermore, when people accept the idea people are evil, then they can justify their own evil actions, and in reality calling most people evil is a projection of a person that wants to be able to do evil.

Many of you have seen some anomalies in posting, things that can not be explained. Every person that rises to power will see those things. Most of them that see them from the side of evil will break and go along with evil, and do not find the good. This is because evil with limited resources targets people in power or with influence. Because of its limited resource, evil itself can only influence a small segment of population so it works on those who seem to have influence. Good can reach everyone, they must only believe in it. The power of good is available to all, it is unlimited.

Posting anomalies is an attempt to show people those forces of good also exist before they get in a place where the terror forces can be used to break them. People should know the supernatural exist and some of it wants to use fear and confusion to scare people into going along with the despair that most people are evil. By trying to pick the parts with the most good and most kindness, you can also see the power of good that is out there.

It takes a great deal of training and control to make a person evil, literally years of work hearing 'its just business' or people trying to get people to think they will be hurt or starve if they try to do good. Literally the good hearts of people have to be constantly beat down to suppress their desire for a better world.

I make the claim most people are good, I support this claim with the entirety of culture, where most of that culture celebrates the better parts of people. Most culture looks for better ways overcoming evil, striving to be better fairer and just. And those stories are what people want to be, that is why they are popular. And that defines and defends that people are more good then bad, they just don't always act on those desires when in strife.

Almost every story has an individual overcoming strife to be a better person, why because that is what people want the world to be. Because people are mostly good.

when they are conscious of what they are doing.

Evil triumphs, only when we turn our minds off.

Evil only triumphs, when we surrender our power of thought, and let others think for us.

Also A quote

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

I'd say 50/50. And there are some noticeable gender differences.

I have spent my life, like everyone else, just around people. And they are good, they help each other, pay for each others beer when broke, stop fights, calm sad people, share good thoughts and overwhelmingly help each other.

But what we see in a small controlled segment of information flow is how bad people are, we see the violence and suffering, and are told.

"You gotta be hard Eddie."

The Bert's of the world want us to give up on love and the better things, not for our advantage, but to break people into despair and puppets of evil.

The better ways are so abundant and so easily seen in people around us, it is clear to me that people are more good then evil.

Some other Hustler quotes
Fast Eddie: How should I play that one, Bert? Play it safe? That's the way you always told me to play it: safe... play the percentage. Well, here we go: fast and loose. One ball, corner pocket. Yeah, percentage players die broke, too, don't they, Bert?
(he makes the shot and the spectators applaud)
Fast Eddie: How can I lose?

A clip from the Hustler.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsKngbcGyeo

good unless there is upon birth (examples: Hitler, Manson & Cheney) some sort of chemical imbalance in the brain. Please don't ask me to prove or explain this. I cannot supply any scientific evidence other than the examples I have given.

and stardust is morally neutral.

Good and evil, therefore, lie elsewhere.

Where?

I don't know.

And I can't explain it either....

:hi:

We are billion year old carbon.

Evil showed up later.

We're animals with consciences. Some of us are more animal than the rest. And some of THOSE have little or no conscience. It ain't anywhere near everybody, though. Fraction of a fraction.

think about it...

That ain't evil. That's just base.

but it is not. As a noun:

evil, immorality, wickedness, iniquity (morally objectionable behavior)

S: (n) evil (that which causes harm or destruction or misfortune) "the evil that men do lives after them; the good is oft interred with their bones"- Shakespeare

S: (n) evil, evilness (the quality of being morally wrong in principle or practice)

So you do not believe that people cause harm or destruction? That there is no such thing as being unprincipled?
The assumption that the word 'evil' has supernatural connotations is incorrect. It means 'wrong' or 'harmful'. Not 'satanic' or 'demonic'.

People never do any harm.

Don't be an idiot. We were obviously working with different definitions.

the real answer lies in nurture

I really think we are two separate but related species, with a 98%:2% ratio. Homo adipiscor : Homo Sapien

OK, I'm too young to have been taught classical Latin so if anyone wants help out, feel free.

Because for the most part whenever we gain tools or knowledge we generally use them to improve our lives.

Massive reforms have happened in the last 200 years on virtually every human and civil rights front. Massive advances in medicine, education, communication and virtually every other field. For the most part we use our knowledge and wealth to improve each others lives.

The fact that we are a species where we lament how evil we can be shows how much capability for good we have. If we were truly an evil species, we would look at the evil in the world and ask 'how can I use this for my own gain'. Instead most people ask 'what can I do to stop this'. I feel bad about the Rwandan genocide, I don't think 'how could I make money off of the next genocide' I think 'is there anything that can be done to stop these things from happening'.

However when we are evil it is usually (from what i've seen) because the social organism we come from requires us to treat a certain group like shit. People are capable of large scale inhuman evil the second it becomes socially sanctioned. However aside from that, we are mostly good.

To me the measure of a person's morality should be based on the degree of empathy one has with others. Does a new-born care if mommy has the flu? No, there is nothing more self centered than an infant. We are born without the concept of empathy, it must be taught.

I am not saying that babies are evil but if evil is defined by putting one's selfish desires before the needs of others then we are born totally selfish and must be taught to be good. The world is full of those who never grew beyond the infantile need for self gratification at the expense of others.

Anne Frank didn't believe people were evil, and look what happened to her.

I just don't know. I want to believe it.

:hi:

There's a lot of ugliness, greed, selfishness, laziness and outright wickedness in the human creature. Some have little, yet some have little else.

To deny its presence is to set oneself up for abject disappointment and neuter one's ability to be a good influence in life. We're a mixed bag, yet I still think we're marginally on the good side.

On the plus side, there is true honesty, altruism, a desire for things to work out for others, a desire to spread joy, constructive curiosity, acceptance, industriousness, respect for others and a honor-bound feeling of being responsible for oneself. To keep that little flame alive is very important, and I've found it best done by simply acknowledging the nastiness in many (and to some degree in almost all) and not let it spoil all the fun when encountered.

I remember many arguments of this sort in college where it was heresy to state that there was inherent ugliness in the human creature or that there was any clouding of emotional issues of the sort. The argument at the time was that rape was a crime of violence and that there wasn't any sexual element to it at all. (Sex, of course, being a pure and wonderful thing...) To dispute this at all was to bring the sanctimonious dismissal of being personally ugly upon one's head. It seemed silly at the time, and it seems more so now: good and bad often walk hand-in-hand, and those who can live with grey areas and current theories are always my true allies.

One of the true follies of mankind is the endless quest for "simplicity", which leads people to demand things be black and white and causes them to fall prey to all sorts of idiotic religions, political groups, social cliques and other shortcuts to the promised land where one never again need engage in that dreaded of all human activities: thinking.

Life is complex. Enjoy it BECAUSE it is; don't trudge through dutifully with the horror that everything's so qualified and mixed. You'd better enjoy it: that's simply the way it is.

That's just another reason why Libertarians are idiots: a tax form that's on a 3x5 card would NOT be the least bit fair, nor would it be allowed to last long.

Enough digression, though. We're a package deal, and it's best to accept the baseness of our fellow humans so we don't get depressed to immobility when it inevitably blindsides one.

lead to changing that. Especially early life experiences. I also think that the brain reacts differently to the same life experiences for each person. My brother and I turned out very different for example.


What Does Evil Mean:

During the argument with my friend, we couldn't agree on what the word "evil" meant. I defined evil like a behavioral psychologist in a purely observational manner. I based it on the amount of egocentric behavior and selfish acts that one would see in a child. Acts that, if not changed later on, might cause a development into Operational Defiant Disorder and eventually into Anti-social Personality Disorder.

For example, very young Betty is playing with a car and very young Tommy wants that car so he crawls over and takes it from Betty. Betty starts crying, and Tommy just goes on enjoying the new car he has found. Then Tommy's mother comes in and sees what happens and says "No, Tommy, look, you just hurt Betty's feelings." and she teaches Tommy that there are consequences to actions. Tommy's young and plastic brain learns that this selfish behavior is bad and hurtful to others.

However, had Tommy not learned this at all... and continued into adulthood with the "me, me, me" attitude. He would be committing evil actions in adulthood.

I don't think evil actions have to be "you intend to be evil" because most evil people do not THINK what they are doing is wrong or evil. The think they are justified, or are doing what "has to be done", or are doing what "anyone else would do" in that situation, or so on. Everyone justifies their own actions.

My friend argued that in order to be evil you have to have "intent" behind the action. You have to intend to cause harm to someone else as a part of your action. He said that trying to define evil in such observational terms as though writing the abstract of a journal article was disengenuous. He even proposed that we might not be able to define "evil" at all because so many people have so many opinions of what the word means. And he could have a very good point. He has a higher IQ than I do and generally floors me with his intelligent observations to the point of making me jealous.

Still... I really do think that without any laws or consequences, that about half of the world (if not more) would gladly loot, steal, or even murder for their own gain and self satisfaction.




A Man Is Best Judged By What He Does When He Thinks No One Is Watching:

There is a saying that declares "A man is best judged by what he does when he thinks no one is watching." I think this is very true. Look at the guy who flipped you off on the highway going to work. He would never do that to your face in the work place because there would be consequences (losing his job), or look at the rude/outrageous messageboard posters you sometimes run across. They'd never say such ugly things in person, but they do it online because there is no consequences. Without consequences, their true natures are able to come out.

The Lord Of The Flies is one of the best books I've ever read. But it is tragic, because I think William Golding got a lot of things correct in his story. It is human nature to disregard others for our own needs. As non-PC as that sounds. I even wrote a song about Golding's philosophies. "William Golding had it right/our insides are as black as night/without the law society is dead."




Good News!:

But the good news is that we can also legitimately change ourselves thanks to life experiences. There are people who, even when no one is watching, will donate to charity, comfort a hurt stranger, or hold their breaks to a let a car through on a busy highway. I think a lot of this is determined when we are young, but I don't believe it is an entirely nurture based situation.

Research has shown that even newborn babies present distinct personalities and tendencies.




The Pre-Frontal Cortex Of The Brain:

I also think some of this has to do with the specific development of the Pre-Frontal cortex. The Pre-frontal cortex has long been associated with personality, determining right from wrong, and rejecting instate self-gratifications. During our childhood the pre-frontal cortex is still developing up until age 7.

For more information on the development of the pre-frontal cortex check out this awesome article: http://web.uvic.ca/psyc/mueller/psyc435c/Week%202%20Notes.pdf




In Closing:

In closing, the greatest thing about the human condition is that, even if we are born evil, we don't have to remain that way forever. Once you really, truly learn empathy, sympathy, compassion, and love... those things are very, very, very hard to unlearn.

-- David

I bet it's blown through other's feet, like those of

Caspar Weinberger."


Dandylion break!!!

But that doesn't mean that we can't all be assholes from time to time.

I like to believe we are lighter shades of gray, but I know that there are dark ones out there and some truly dark ones bordering on black wandering this world.

dark areas in our psyches that if left unacknowledged are easy to draw out and exploit.

Take Jalaluddin Haqqani. His network is considered the US's most deadly foe in Afghanistan.

Yet a member of the Afghan parliament calls him "a virtuous and noble man."

Texas Congressman Charlie Wilson once called Haqqani "goodness personified," I think because he could kill Soviets like crazy.

mammals. This instinct provides a capacity to kill which is exploited culturally and not always rationally.

We humans are battling our own brains: the survival instincts of our ancestors are no longer relevant, but they're still coded in our DNA and we're still reactive to our baser selves. The higher evolution--that of compassion, understanding and communication--is pretty recent, if you look at our time on this planet.

But in our arrogance, we classify this as "good" or "evil" because we can't possibly believe we have no real purpose or there isn't some deity fighting for our souls. But guess what? We're beholden to the forces of nature, just like every other life form. Humans are wired to fight for survival, but because our offspring mature so slowly, we have to form social collectives to protect them. If we could have spider babies who were indepent on Day 2 from birth, we wouldn't have to learn to live with each other, and could be selfish and only out for Number 1. The conflict comes from wanting to fulfill our own needs, but also adhearing to the greater good of the species.

The genius of our nation and the Founding Fathers is they realized that we are weak and will do things for our own benefit. Greed for money, greed for power, greed for sex, greed for status.

No one should have so much power so there is no check on their power. The less power we give people the less temptation they have.

has outstripped its own evolutionary pace.