Police K-9 bites four-year-old during house raid

http://www.wvec.com/news/norfolk/stories/wvec_local_061009_child_bitten_by_k-9_norf.69abfc72.html

Exclusive: Norfolk Police K-9 bites four-year-old

06:15 PM EDT on Wednesday, June 10, 2009

Reported by: Patrick Terpstra

NORFOLK -- A four-year-old is recovering after being bitten in several locations on his body by a police dog during an early morning raid.

Police were searching for the boy’s father, Brian Snowden, a murder suspect, when they raided the 20th Bay Street home around 7:30 a.m. Wednesday, a Norfolk police spokesman said.

“Several verbal commands were given for the occupants, if any, to come forward before the dog was released,” police spokesman Chris Amos said.

Amos did not know how much time elapsed between those commands and when the dog was unleashed.

The dog went into the child’s bedroom and began biting him on the face and neck.

Amos says as soon as the officer heard the child screaming, he ordered the dog to let go.

Three other adults in the house complied with orders and were not hurt.

Police did not find Snowden.

Family took the child to Children’s Hospital of the King’s Daughters, where he was treated for bites and bruises, according to child’s aunt.

The family has hired a lawyer.

And make sure that it's such a huge amount of money the family gets too.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-so...

>>In two major rulings after she joined the U.S. 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals in New York in 1998, she held that evidence could be used to convict a defendant even though police had violated his rights in seizing it. Sotomayor said that because the police and prosecutors acted "in good faith," the evidence need not be thrown out.

In 1999, Sotomayor upheld the crack cocaine conviction of a New York man despite what she called a "mistaken arrest." Last year, Sotomayor spoke for a 2-1 majority that upheld a man's child pornography conviction, even though she agreed an FBI agent did not have probable cause to search his computer.
<<

She'd say the police and the K-9 acted in "good faith".

I kind of hope she doesn't make it with those decisions. No wonder the right loved her a while back. That is just outrageous. If she were a Repuke all holy hell would break loose.

:sarcasm: but truly, poor kid and wtf for poorly trained K9 officer/dog duo

unleashing a dog in a house, especially a house with compliant adults and a 4 yr old.

they were issued orders to come out and refused to comply. the cops were looking for a murder suspect for pete's sake.

is this a tragedy? of course.

but i'm not going to kneejerk and blame the cops.

story doesn't say the adults refused to comply but "Three other adults in the house complied with orders and were not hurt. " Looks like the only one who didn't comply was the 4 yr old.

Also "Amos did not know how much time elapsed between those commands and when the dog was unleashed. "

Don't kneejerk and blame the complying adults for not complying

48 months out of the womb, and he/she still can't comply! :eyes:

can't make a contract, etc....

are they referring to complying before or after the dog was sent.

or did all the adults leave the house (comply), not tell the cops there was a kid in the house?

that's pretty unlikely.

again, we have these brief media accounts, and it's rarely clear. the one thing that is clear is BLAME THE COPS

darn that 4 yr old for not complying

Pict of Brian Snowden

as i mentioned in the previous post.
i have been to dozens of similar calls, and one thing i have found is consistent is that media accounts are often very inaccurate, vague, and confusing.

you can read a lot into them.

what do they mean by "complied"?

if by complied, they came out of the house, then why did they leave the kid IN the house, and did they tell the cops there was a kid in the house, etc.

i've been in shootout with a murder suspect. it's not fun. i give the cops the benefit of the doubt.

i have no idea the exact sequence of events, and there is not enough information to assume they recklessly sent the dog in. did the others tell them there was a kid inside, or did they comply AFTER the dog was sent.

it is not clear. which gives people with a bias, the ample opportunity to read into the incident

“Several verbal commands were given for the occupants, if any, to come forward before the dog was released,” police spokesman Chris Amos said.

Damn! Do you get it now?

For some 7:30 isn't early. I work swing shift and the only reason I'm up at 7:30 is to pee or let the dog out/in. I am glad this will be investigated as there are several things that may have contributed and is difficult to say what went wrong.

:sarcasm:

You've repeated this important point from the article several times throughout this thread. Regardless of the inability of many people to understand (or, perhaps, to care) that the police are responsible for the safety of this child in a situation they've taken over, I applaud you for trying to get the point across.

:patriot:

There's so much "personal responsibility" bullshit being slung around this thread, I'm surprised no one's tried to convince us what a great writer Ayn Rand is.

:eyes:

That's why I read the entire article including the excerpt posted in the OP that stated the adults were compliant.

There's no excuse, not even looking for a murder suspect, to have a dog with police training unleashed in a house with compliant adults and a child.

when they issued the orders, they would have come out of the house with the kid.

or did they come out of the house and when the cops asked "is there anybody else in the house" not tell them about the kids?

thaT makes no sense.

I hope they investigate to figure out what went wrong as something did.

hook. What was the hurry to let the dog go? Cops didn't care about consequences because they will not be held accountable.

Are kids getting so rare these days that people forget that they exist?
I'm saying that in all seriousness. Before I had one of my own, I think it was easy to slip into the mindset that the world is made up of mostly adults -- or kids old enough to mostly fend for themselves.

to be home alone. when the adults were warned several times to come out before the dog would be sent in, they did nothing at all. THEY are responsible for this horrible accident to this child.

as soon as the police realized something had gone wrong, they called off the dog and it responded perfectly to its training and released. only after the child had been maimed did the "adults" respond.

But that doesn't give you the right to fire a gun blindly into the alley, either. If you hit that child with a bullet, it's no that child's parents' fault they let him play in the alley.

Why are you so very quick to excuse the police of ANY responsibility in this situation?

I am mid 50's, had considered going into law enforcement but realized I would burn out fast since I didn't have the ability to emotionally distance myself, if that makes sense. I wanted to be a public servant, went into health care instead and have learned that distance, and have grown out of needing or wanting adrenaline rushes.

Being the age I am, I have had friends who were cops. I have also have experiences with asshole cops who were power hungry egoists. The problem is that because of the power differential, it only takes a few bad ones to spoil it for a the good ones. It seems there are enough of those who either go into police work because of the power differential, wanting to be powerful, or those who grow into that way of being. Same as other public servants like those working for agencies trying to help those who need help and figuring out who is scamming them, ending up distrustful of most everyone.

I do hold police to a higher standard than, say, grocery clerk because of that power differential and them having the ability to misuse it easily.

Just explaining here, not meaning to get into a negative discussion so I apologize if that happens. Figuring that it is good to talk and try to figure out why we react like we do to each other.

There are news stories all over the place about some power hungry motherfucking pig in a blue suit abusing some one! It's gotta stop...quit exalted these bastards...quit glamorizing them on TV!!!

boy was still sleeping in his bed in his fugging bedroom in his family's home.
I hope they sue the pants off these police.

How fucking dare they be sleeping in their own damn house. The nerve!

Your lack of empathy is unsurprising and disgusting.

Were they aware that a child was in the house? Did they care? Probably not. The child didn't matter to them. What was the hurry? They acted irresponsibly and need to be jailed. Cops think they can do whatever they wish. they taser people that talk back to them, they shot people "by mistake" about once a week. Locally a police officer accidentally shot and killed a mentally ill man that was in a tree and refusing to come down. She thought she was using her taser. Why taser a harmless, helpless man in a tree. Because they can. They kill unarmed people and are always exonerated.

Oh we were just looking for a murder suspect. Just earning your tax dollars and keeping individuals from being murdered.

Sorry for the inconvience.

1. the police ordered people to come out

2. nobody came out, so they released the dog

3. child started screaming, police called dog off & adults came out

The adults didn't come out / were not compliant until *after* the child was screaming.

The article also makes clear that the big unknown is how much time elapsed between police ordering people out and police releasing dog.

So the only question (per this article) is whether or not the police allowed sufficient time for adults to comply before releasing the dog.

I hope the child is ok and grows up without hating/fearing dogs. And I hope the police catch the murderer.

Only a complete idiot would expect the guy to be home waiting for them.

They knew, they just didn't care. I hope that kid is set for life.

and further more, if they knew of this home, they probably had info about who might be living there. This is, a child and other adults, all of whom were likely asleep, or just waking up. Not everyone is alert and waiting to answer the door at 7:30 in the morning. I know I'm not. I drag my butt out of bed around that time to make sure my son is up and getting ready for school, then fall back into bed for another hour.

There are reports about police brutality that get ignored, unless they happen to be caught it on video. And people are always amazed by the recordings. I'm never amazed. I always imagine it is just how people have reported. I trust the people over the police every time. The recordings only verify everything I've always thought.

The dog was trained to do waht he did. Notice that he stopped as soon as told to do so. That indicates a well trained dog who was, truly, following orders. Were he not well trained, by the time he started biting, it would be hard to get him to stop.

I don't know who is to blame, but I'm inclined, in this case, to look to the dog's handler and whoever gave the order to set the dog to work.

attack and bite people?

that bit a four-year-old child, that dog would almost certainly be destroyed afterward. But since it's a cop dog "police officer", this animal will almost certainly remain "on the force".

You're ascribing the ability to reason to a dog.

The dog does what it is trained to do.

A trained working dog (cop dog, drug dog, seeing eye dog, no matter what) is very different from a pet with a bad disposition.

That's exactly why I asked whether the dog is trained to attack and bite people. Since we can't presume the dog capable of making a rational/reasonable decision, I think we either have to assume that a)the dog's handler gave an order to attack, b) the dog has been trained to attack anything that moves, or c) the dog was simply vicious and attacked of his own volition. I'm not especially comfortable with any of those scenarios, and yes, if your dog or mine, attacked a child without provocation, or worse, because it had been trained to attack, or because someone gave it an order to attack, that dog would be destroyed.

By default.

nt

:rofl:

note that the dog released when he was commanded to do so.

to bite first and ask questions later? "Oops, sorry you weren't the suspect we were looking for. Sorry about what's left of your face."

...said you want a dog to ask questions right?

"Please be my prisoner now."

I have just met you. And I love you!"

Try reading the post again without the literal mindedness.

Actual story:

I was in HS and I came charging down the stairs, our German Shepherd came tearing around the corner and lunged up at me. I guess she got spooked and thought I was an intruder or something. So she leapt at me, and I grabbed her by the neck and took her down, and as I did it, I yelled, "Do you know who I am?" She snapped out of it super fast.

Later on, relating the story to my mother she said, "what did she say?" And she was serious. My sister and I both looked at her and said, "It's a dog. she didn't say anything."

The dog is trained to do something on command. The dog is also trained to stop doing what it was ordered to do, also on command.

There is no emotion or reason on the part of the dog involved in any of this.

That dog did what is expected. He used his teeth when ordered to do so and he stopped when ordered to do so. The face bits are a matter of size. A four year old kid is face to face with a German Shepherd Dog.

And I am no "cop apologist"

What "call" did the officer issue to the dog? Search and alert? Search and detain?

As you say, a call to detain is going to involve the german shepherd's teeth at face level to a young child. Either the dog was not properly trained to disregard a crying 4-year-old child as a threat--which I find unlikely, but not impossible--or the officer abused the concept of proportional force when he issued a destructive command into an unknown environment.

While this sort of incident would ideally lead to a review of and a change in police K-9 policy, I think the Blue Wall will probably rally to resist change. So it goes.

His handler/partner acted in error or haste. Or maybe that department's policy is in error.

And I would strongly insist that it all be looked into.

All evidence, however, is that the dog did its job. The order to do that job could well have been wrong, but that's not the dog's fault.

I'm just allowing for the possibility (albeit slim) that the dog disobeyed his training. And really, if that's the case, it should have been caught earlier by his handler.

Except there *are* more variables than regular equipment.
I think of them as highly trained professionals who are an extension of the will of their partner/handlers. Unless there was a direct disobedience of orders one can only place blame with the partner who made the decision.

Bottom line, none of this would have happened if the guy had turned himself in when he was supposed to so he's the one for putting his family in danger.
'

nt

until he is released by his partner. The partner is the gatekeeper, the dog is only doing what he's trained to do.

to attack and bite people? Does the partner need to give the "sic 'im" command? Or does the dog get to make his or her own judgment about when to bite someone's face off?

Those dogs are to be treated as loaded weapons. Every action it takes is to be under direct command/control of the human partner.

The handler giving the dog an order to attack without knowing what it was going to be attacking, in this case, the handler giving the dog permission to attack a four year old child, or whatever it happened to encounter, or the dog getting to attack at will? Apparently in this case, the handler wasn't even in the room when the dog attacked, so maybe the dog just gets to attack when it wants. Either way, the dog was not under the direct command of its partner, except when it was on the leash and when it was pulled off the kid's throat.

The dog gets credit for backing away when called off, but it should never have been allowed to wander free off the leash, or at least, out of sight of its handler. If you or I, as private citizens, trained or allowed a dog to do as this one did, the dog would be put to sleep, and rightfully so, and we'd likely find ourselves in some legal trouble.

They are highly-trained professionals.
What I'm getting at is that in no way is the dog responsible for the biting--he was only doing what it was told to do by the partner/handler. It is the partner's fault. You cannot apply the same rules to a working K9 as you would to a family pet with inadequate training (if that) who is being territorial.

Like my dogs can be total goofballs, but not if they're on sheep.

I've actually thought about doing Schutzhund with my older Border Collie. I think he'd love it.

The most even-tempered German Shepherds come from Schutzhund lines. My mother has one such dog now. Very friendly, protective dog. She'd actually be perfect for protection work.

It can be ordered out to simply intimate a target by *appearing* to attack them. It can be ordered to actually attack. It can even be ordered to bite at a gun in hand if it has been so trained.

German Shepherd Dogs are **very** smart. But they are not capable of reason. They simply follow orders. If you have a complaint about a police dog's actions, take it up with the K-9 supervisor, not the dog. The dog, when not working, is just a dog.

The most openly affectionate, human silliness tolerant, loving dog I have ever known is a German Shepherd Dog. Ours is one of them.

Here are two others ....... so very typical.

GSD's are so silly!

He will be traumatized by that for a long time. Poor thing.

http://www.wavy.com/dpp/news/local_news/norfolk/local_wavy_norf_homicide_suspect_sought_20090529

Homicide suspect sought
in Norfolk

Updated: Friday, 29 May 2009, 3:45 PM EDT
Published : Friday, 29 May 2009, 3:44 PM EDT

NORFOLK, Va. - Norfolk police are looking for the murder suspect accused of killing former Phoebus football player. 20-year-old Andre Holloway was gunned down on Balview Avenue early Wednesday morning.

Police are now looking for his killer, identified as Brian "BJ" Snowden. Snowden is described as a black male, 6'2" tall, 170 pounds, with short black hair, goatee and brown eyes.

Police warn that Snowden should be considered dangerous. He's known to frequent the Ocean View and Bay Streets area. Snowden's wanted on murder, robbery and firearm's charges.

Snowden is pictured to the left of this story. If you have any information on the whereabouts of Snowden, you're asked to call Crime Line at 1-888-LOCK-U-UP.

http://hamptonroads.com/2009/06/4yearold-recovering-after-norfolk-k9-attack
A 4-year-old is recovering after being bitten by a police dog that was released into a house looking for a homicide suspect Wednesday morning.

Police went to the home on 20th Bay Street to search for Brian “BJ” Snowden, 22, wanted in connection with a May 27 shooting, said Chris Amos, Norfolk police spokesman. About 7:30 a.m. police arrived and yelled for occupants to come out of the house. There was no response, but the door was partially open, Amos said. A K-9 unit came to the scene, and police again called for people inside to come out. There was no response, so the K-9 officer went in with the dog on a leash, and called three more times, still with no response, Amos said. Following protocol, he said, the officer took the dog off the leash to search.

The dog entered a room where a 4-year-old was sleeping. Amos said the child likely moved and the dog attacked. When the child screamed, the K-9 officer ran in and commanded the dog to release. Moments later, three adults emerged from other parts of the house, Amos said. Snowden was not there.

The child was seen by paramedics, but the family refused their treatment and took him to Children’s Hospital of The King’s Daughters, where he was treated and released, Amos said.

The incident will be investigated.
-------------------------

Edited to add I want to see more of what happened and want it investigated as something went wrong. Am glad the kid will be ok

at 7:30am

NT

They tried to get the adults to come out. They didn't. So they sent in the dog. What's wrong with that?

The dog bit a kid, but he let go when he was told.

Innocent people shouldn't be endangered when looking for a murderer.

Nobody answered when they said they were sending in the dog.

So you then unleash vicious dogs on a whole house ? So its ok this child was injured... its all justified?


What has this country come to.

It sucks that the kid got bit, but the adults have to take some responsibility for not coming out when they said they were sending in the dog.

but that's what he gets for hanging around with a murder suspect. Next time he'll know better.

The police could have entered the rooms of the house themselves instead of sending a dog.

The adults should have come out when told to.

Letting a dog run loose in someone else's home isn't the answer.

then what?

:shrug:

Don't you know you could have seriously injured that helpless police dog?

My patience for these badge wearing goons is rapidly coming to a close. WHAT DID A FOUR YEAR OLD TO DESERVE THIS????

for the safety of the kid.

The kid cannot be expected to have been trained to handle this situation. The police can.

no one has said the child bears any responsibility

fucking duh

his dog. Same as for his gun.

i find it very hard to believe all the adults were asleep and remained asleep until after the child was hurt.

does it say one way or the other in the story? is there any way to prove it one way or the other?

"Don't be a heavy sleeper, or the police have every right to maul your child's face with a trained attack dog."

Perhaps they should issue a general warning to the population, in that case? :shrug:

I guess you haven't read any of the info, haven't researched any news articles on this, yet you hold such a strong opinion? First thing I did was google the dad's name in news to see if there were other stories. I would suggest you do that also as you may find out more

everyone there. That's their job. Yes, they're even responsible for the safety of those they arrest. They're certainly responsible for bystanders in the house.

Thanks for throwing a straw man my way, but I have no need of it. :hi:

Perhaps you don't understand how law enforcement works. If not, I suggest you try reading. I'd start with a book, but YMMV.

When the police enter a situation, they take control of that situation. They bear the responsibility for the resulting dog bite. If the situation was volatile or unknown enough that an attack dog should not have been released into the environment, then the police handler should not have released the dog, or should only have released it with a "search and alert" call rather than a "search and attack" one.

Next you'll be arguing that if a cop shoots a kid because he thinks the kid might be holding a gun, it's the parents' fault. :eyes:

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Perhaps then you'd avoid spouting strawmen and smearing your "personal responsibility" meme on a four-year-old child who is likely to be scarred for life because some cowboy cop thought he was "K-9 Rambo."

I'm sorry that you don't believe the police should bear any responsibility for their choices and actions. I hear those who share your views would do well under a dictatorship, police state, or other totalitarian environment. Here in the USA, we expect that the police will do the bare minimum to protect civilians from harm in the course of their duties.

Unless, of course, you believe that the police are above the law. :shrug:

their child in the other room.

When a psychopathic police dog mauls your kid while you're being detained, we'll talk. Unless then, your comment showed me how little you care about the safety of this child.

Sad.

Oh, and I'm a dog lover too!

I have to say that some of you should be ashamed of yourselves. :thumbsdown:

The kid was four years old. Releasing a trained attack dog into an unknown environment is asking for someone to suffer a bite. Without a handler VERY near at hand, the dog is as likely to attack as to call out (bark) or otherwise mark a trouble spot and return to the handler.

I don't care whether or not the parents did their job.
I know the police failed to do theirs.

And that 4-year-old boy will have to live with the scars of their negligence.

Still laughing?

This is serious police negligence. I hope they sue. As one person noted here if it was not a police dog it would be put down.

That's either incredibly smart on their part, or incredibly stupid.

Smart, because any lawsuit that would be later filed will be hampered down by the paramedics skewed, bias opinions.

Stupid, because the defense attorney can now say "HE WASN"T IN BAD ENOUGH SHAPE THAT YOU COULDN"T DRIVE HIM TO THE HOSPITAL AFTER REFUSING MEDICAL HELP"

The cops are 100% in the wrong here. I don't give a crap even the adults complied or not.

this one is not well written. when you can't tell what happened when, what had or hadn't been said, it is sloppy reporting.

They can only write the information they have and they are under deadline pressure.

How often do we find after a thorough investigation that the facts of the case are quite different than what the police originally report?

What's up with the three adults not warning the police about the child in the house?

what's up with that? i really doubt they were and REMAINED asleep through the entire even until it was too late.

have you seen any evidence one way or the other?

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Of the suspect. LOL! If they send a dog into a home like that, they should wire him up with camera so they can see inside the home first, and know if the suspect is there and then give a signal to let the dog attack if needed. Just the fact that they didn't realize how much time lapsed before they sent the dog in says something. They are supposed to be PROFESSIONAL. I know they are not infallible, but really.

the suspect? I don't think so. They released the dog to punish or terrorize the residence into cooperating.

nor an excuse to justify hating dogs, as is a bias.

Dogs save lives too!



You don't hate guns too?

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

before the police by his actions. Before the "hate police" bandwagon jumps on, the police are accountable too, but the police would never had been there if the father hadn't murdered someone.

why release the dog? Why not have a handler go with it? Why give it a kill command or free reign before releasing it, knowing that it was going in there to maim or kill people?

I know the police are able to raid homes without this sort of problem happening, so what went wrong this time? The adults should have spoken up and said there was a child present, no doubt about it. But what should the police have done differently?

as I did say the police are accountable. But...if this man is capable of murder, sending in a police dog isn't a bad idea. It is just so sadly unfortunate that a true innocent was harmed.

in this case it backfired. I'm sure it is a difficult decision to make.

I think it is hard to fall totally on any side of any situation like this unless we are there and in someone else's position. Glad the child is ok though.