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Obama defends DOMA in federal court. Says banning gay marriage is good for the federal budget.

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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 09:19 AM
Original message
Obama defends DOMA in federal court. Says banning gay marriage is good for the federal budget.
From Americablog:

Joe and I have been trying since last night to get a copy of the government's brief just filed in this case. This is not the GLAD case that we've written about previously, it's another in California. We just got the brief from reader Lavi Soloway. It's pretty despicable. Here is the entire document, and below are excerpts:


"The constitutional propriety of Congress's decision to decline to extend federal benefits immediately to newly recognized types of marriages is bolstered by Congress's articulated interest in preserving the scarce resources of both the federal and State governments. DOMA ensures that evolving understandings of the institution of marriage at the State level do not place greater financial and administrative obligations on federal and state benefits programs. Preserving scarce government resources — and deciding to extend benefits incrementally — are well-recognized legitimate interests under rational-basis review. See Butler, 144 F.3d at 625 ("There is nothing irrational about Congress's stated goal of conserving social security resources, and Congress can incrementally pursue that goal."); Hassan v. Wright, 45 F.3d 1063, 1069 (7th Cir. 1995) ("

rotecting the fisc provides a rational basis for Congress' line drawing in this instance."). Congress expressly relied on these interests in enacting DOMA: Government currently provides an array of material and other benefits to married couples in an effort to promote, protect, and prefer the institution of marriage. . . . If were to permit homosexuals to marry, these marital benefits would, absent some legislative response, presumably have to be made available to homosexual couples and surviving spouses of homosexual marriages on the same terms as they are now available to opposite-sex married couples and spouses. To deny federal recognition to same-sex marriages will thus preserve scarce government resources, surely a legitimate government purpose."

Gays have no constitutional right to marriage, or recognition of their marriages by other states:

Plaintiffs are married, and their challenge to the federal Defense of Marriage Act ("DOMA") poses a different set of questions: whether by virtue of their marital status they are constitutionally entitled to acknowledgment of their union by States that do not recognize same-sex marriage, and whether they are similarly entitled to certain federal benefits. Under the law binding on this Court, the answer to these questions must be no.

Read Obama's motion to dismiss DOMA case here:

http://www.americablog.com/2009/06/obama-justice-department-defends-doma.html

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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
1. Fierce Advocate
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
2. So.... Obama wrote that motion to dismiss?
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. What a weak obsfucation. Is that the best you've got?? nt
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #4
19. It's a question... the wording there implies it was, and I was curious.
And LOL... you might want to consider looking up the definition of "obfuscation".
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #19
37. Maybe I should have written "what a stupid question! " nt
Edited on Fri Jun-12-09 10:29 AM by boston bean
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #37
124. Here's a simple request
Please show the rest of us where Barack Obama is quoted as saying "banning gay marriage is good for the federal government"

thanks
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #19
145. You were obfuscating, actually.
ob·fus·cate
Pronunciation:
\ˈäb-fə-ˌskāt; äb-ˈfəs-ˌkāt, əb-\
Function:
verb
Inflected Form(s):
ob·fus·cat·ed; ob·fus·cat·ing
Etymology:
Late Latin obfuscatus, past participle of obfuscare, from Latin ob- in the way + fuscus dark brown — more at ob-, dusk
Date:
1577
transitive verb
1 a: darken b: to make obscure <obfuscate the issue>
2: confuse <obfuscate the reader>
intransitive verb
: to be evasive, unclear, or confusing
— ob·fus·ca·tion \ˌäb-(ˌ)fəs-ˈkā-shən\ noun
— ob·fus·ca·to·ry \äb-ˈfəs-kə-ˌtȯr-ē, əb-\ adjective

In trying to change the subject by asking if Obama personally composed the words that were put to paper, rather than addressing the fact that the Executive Branch is making this argument at all, you are trying to make the issue about the authorship of the opinion (an attempt to confuse readers as to what the issue at hand is/ to make the issue obscure)... despite the fact that whoever authored it would have to have it ok'd further up the chain of supervision... a chain which eventually leads to the policy decisions made by the Executive himself, which are then implemented by the rest of the Executive Branch.
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. Yes he did
Remember -- the buck stops with him. What the fuck -- do you think some underling wrote it and sabotaged Obama with it? He is responsible for whatever the executive branch does -- that's why they call him the fucking president.

Bastard!
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #7
21. I thought someone at the DoJ might have written it, yeah.
Oh, the drama.
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GodlessBiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. "Respondeat superior"
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. Understood...
however, writing "Obama's motion to dismiss" implies something else, it seemed to me.

Regardless, my asking that question has got peple's kneejerking little heads exploding, so I'll just assume that the statement was perfectly accurate and not at all sloppy.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #29
36. I didn't build my car but it is still mine
Obama commissioned the motion so it is his just as if he wrote it.
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #21
32. Please stop being so cute
He is responsible -- they didn't go an do this behind his back. If they did, then heads should roll. I will wait for heads to roll. If they don't, then I'll know he approves of this.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #32
117. That's not the way the Office of Solicitor General works

Obama is not their client.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #21
46. It's only drama
when it's not your concern. If you don't have gay friends, then it's just drama. If you don't have sons or daughters in Iraq, then it's just drama. If you have company paid insurance, then it's just drama.

To some, it is more important than that.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #46
51. I'm not calling the issue itself drama.
I thought that was obvious.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #51
95. Just the people who it affects.
"I have two pom poms at the ready. One named drama, one named pony."

When you dismiss people who care about an issue, you are dismissing the issue. It is easy to see it all as an intellectual conversation, removed from emotion if you don't have anything to lose either way.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #95
98. You can't call people 'drama'.
I'm calling some of the reactions drama. That is not dismissing the issue.
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #98
146. Yes, calling reactions "drama" is actually being dismissive of an issue.
Edited on Fri Jun-12-09 02:32 PM by LooseWilly
In calling reactions to an issue "drama" you demean the reactions... and in so doing you demean the issue. (How can the reactions to a serious issue ever be merely drama? If I said that all the hubub from the families of the victims of 9/11 was just so much drama, I'm sure you would agree that that was being dismissive of the issue. In the same way, as this is a serious issue, those who are affected have every right to "nash their teeth" and not be accused of "drama".)


** Edited to maintain referential clarity against the inevitable shifting of the thread **

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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #98
157. You love to parse words.
But your parsing doesn't hide your point. I can see why you would want to avoid commenting on the matter, but we read it anyway.

Go ahead. Step back. Shake your pom poms and stay so emotionally detached. It doesn't affect you, so why care?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #157
159. No, I just love words full stop.
Edited on Fri Jun-12-09 05:09 PM by redqueen
Did you miss this?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5832231&mesg_id=5832697

I guess it's just more fun to have a little dramarama slap fight. I get it... I just don't care to participate.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #159
162. We understand.
Seriously, we get where you're coming from. One whole post with a half-hearted effort at compassion.

Yep. We get it.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #162
164. Yep. I figured as much. Enjoy the slap-fighting. (nt)
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #164
168. Keep up the innuendos. They go with your snark festival. nt
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #46
60. Excellent -- +1
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #46
115. Well, gee, my stepdaughter and her girlfriend are getting married this summer...

...and I still understand that the President is not the client of the Office of Solicitor General, with respect to constitutional challenges to the US Code.

So, tell me, what does that make me?
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #115
158. Congrats to the newlyweds.
I don't know what that makes you. Confused? Angry? Frustrated? Out of touch? Which of those do you feel? Only you can say.

No one said he is the client. He is the employer. But you know what the complaint is. If in your situation you don't understand the anger, you are too cool for the room. Most of us who support gay rights are pissed off about this. Some just want to play with words and duck the issue. Your call.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #158
169. I do understand the anger

(Thanks for the congrats, they are a great couple.)

After eight years of anger at the way that Bush had politicized independent functions of the DoJ, I understand all kinds of anger.

Electing a new president is not "open season" on the entirety of the US Code. If that was the case, all we would be doing is selecting a new dictator every four years. That sure as hell isn't going to protect anyone's rights.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #169
174. So because bush fired lawyers,
you want the administration to support and aid continuation of DOMA? I don't get that reasoning.

DOMA is morally repugnant. Rushing to defend it is not something a Democratic administration should do. At the very least, they could just shut up about it. Nothing requires them to put this crap into the record.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #174
176. "you want the administration to support and aid continuation of DOMA?"
Edited on Fri Jun-12-09 09:13 PM by jberryhill
That is the precise opposite of what I want, and the function of the SG's office does not need to be repeated.

I want our government to work as intended, and I have confidence that allowing the process to work properly will have the result of expanding the scope of liberty the way it has done so for decades.

I do not want any presidential administration to determine in its sole unfettered discretion what the law is.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #176
178. Sorry,
but I think the brief filed by the administration goes way beyond simply following a law because their hands were tied. They could easily have just shut up instead of producing a multi page support document filled with truly obscene reasoning. No administration is forced to support a law they want repealed. Maybe they have to pretend to enforce it, but they don't have to use legal hate speech to defend it.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-14-09 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #178
182. "obscene reasoning"

I gather you believe it compared gay marriage to "incest and pedophilia". It didn't.

As many legal briefs do, it included a survey of cases on a relevant topic - at that point in the brief in particular a survey on full faith and credit cases. Some states allow marriage at age 16, some don't. Some states allow first cousin marriage, and some don't.

If you want to call states which have lawful marriages of teenagers or first cousins, states which engage in "incest and pedophilia", then I guess that's one warped interpretation, but in those states where cousin marriage is legal - it is not considered incest. The words "incest" and "pedophilia" are not in the brief, and the claim of comparison is an invention.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #46
155. +1
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #2
15. Do you think Obama is in charge or not?
Are you claiming that this was done against his will? Clarify your position, please.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #15
22. It's a very simple question.
"Obama's motion to dismiss" implies he wrote it himself. I was curious whether that was actually the case.
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #22
35. Please read this carefully
or have someone read it to you

If someone writes something in your name, it doesn't matter who actually puts the words on the paper -- as long as they represent your thoughts -- such as when a secretary writes a letter that goes out under her boss' signature. For all intents and purposes, the boss "wrote" the letter -- even though the secretary was the one who typed it.

Trying to argue otherwise is just silly sophistry.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #35
44. Can you remind me what your position was on the Bush DoJ prosecutor firings?

Firing DoJ prosecutors for not following political orders is okay, yes?
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #44
147. Bush DoJ prosecutors were fired for refusing to prosecute politically motivated, weak cases.
Edited on Fri Jun-12-09 02:46 PM by LooseWilly
In this case, you have the rep of the DoJ making a weak defense of a politically unpopular law. The issue at hand, and I'm sure you'd know this if you had bothered to think it through, is how does the Obama Administration interpret this law... and therefore how does the Executive counsel the DoJ to litigate it's interpretation/implementation through the courts.

The Obama administration has clearly shown that they have no interest in bringing any energy/will to bear on changing the law... if they had any interest they could've done like Jerry Brown did, as Attorney General of California, and argued alongside those looking to challenge a discriminatory law (in the case of California, it was the procedural challenge of prop 8).

If you are going to continue on the "DoJ is apolitical" tack, please tell me how you justify the fact that Obama felt at liberty to answer for Holder as to whether or not there would be investigations/trials of Bush Administration misdeeds?... Obama seemed to clearly show himself willing to exert political power in that instance, when it served his political interests... didn't he?
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #147
171. I've already answered that


You are confusing the DoJ as prosecutor v. the DoJ as defender of the US, as embodied in the US code.

The DoJ does not have a duty to charge and prosecute every person believed to have committed a crime, and investigation of the torture thing is ongoing.

It is not the case that election of a president results in a wholesale re-write of the statutes of the US, and when a duly enacted statute is challenged, the Office of Solicitor General defends it.

The criminal division absolutely can make plea bargains, decide whether a prosecution is likely to result in a conviction, and so on. The president can even directly pardon any criminal defendant he wants.

That is not the situation here.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #35
66. "or have someone read it to you"
:eyes:

"for all intents and purposes" - thanks, that's what I thought.

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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #66
119. they get all pissy when you get in front of their daily outrage....
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #15
24. He's only responsible for the good things. When bad things happen,
they are the work of treacherous underlings whom he hired but has no control over.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. LOL
Break out the graphics, instead. You haven't used that chess pic already today, have you?

It's old, but better trying to put words into other people's mouths.

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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #27
148. "... words into other people's mouths."
Hmm.. that is kind of funny... seeing as how you've carefully avoided saying anything... it does sound ridiculous when anyone doesn't respond similarly indirectly in the face of your artifice...

How dare anyone say anything?... :+
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #15
57. Does the term "Saturday Night Massacre" ring any bells with you? /nt
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #57
149. "Saturday Night Massacre" will be relevant on the day that there's an investigation of Obama.
The more relevant false comparison is the one you made earlier to the Bush firing of prosecutors... I responded to that already...
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #149
170. Uh, the relevance is..

That the DoJ consists of several departments, several of which consist of attorneys who work for the country at large and must exercise the duty of the office to defend the law.

The showdown with Nixon was a classic confrontation between DoJ officials following the rule of law, versus Nixon's perception that they were supposed to follow his orders.
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
3. Delete. dup post
Edited on Fri Jun-12-09 09:26 AM by mnhtnbb
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
5. OMG. Try changing the language to extending the right to vote to African Americans
and the stress that will put on scarce government resources and see how it reads.

This is unbelievable. Let's deny equal rights because it will preserve scarce governmental resources.

Jesse Helms would be proud.
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #5
17. Yep here it would be in all it's bigoted glory
Plaintiffs are of mixed race, and their challenge to the federal Defense of Marriage Act ("DOMA") poses a different set of questions: whether by virtue of their marital status they are constitutionally entitled to acknowledgment of their union by States that do not recognize racially mixed marriage, and whether they are similarly entitled to certain federal benefits. Under the law binding on this Court, the answer to these questions must be no.

sounds pretty grotesque to me.
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
150. Jesse Helms nothing... this was Michael Steele's argument !!!!
Anyone remember that?... sheee-iit...
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GodlessBiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
6. O...M...G! Fucking asshole bastards.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
8. Not sure - but don't they have to defend any law?
Exactly as its written? Can a lawyer help out?
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Short answer: No.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. But surely this must be some kind of triple reverse Mr. Spock 300-dimensional chess strategy
too complex for mere mortals to comprehend! Mustn't it?
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. won't be long before someone comes on and asks
Why can't all these LGBTers (ones who have serious doubts) just hush up and find their place quietly under the bus.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. Actually, I think the DOJ response is sickening
Along with several other responses to current cases they have filed. I'm trying to figure out if they are going through with various court cases so that some of this crap can be overturned and become settled law. Making this assinine claim gives the court the chance to uphold civil rights. These rights shouldn't be voted on by anybody, which means the court has to decide them. Same reason Boies and Olsen are going to the Supreme Court. That's all I'm asking.

Same as when I pointed out that California upheld all the legal rights of marriage, which is no small thing. It's a matter of not losing the technicality when things are all emotional.
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #18
33. No, they do not have to.
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #33
56. Bush, Clinton, and Reagan all opposed existing federal law in court n/t
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FLAprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #56
67. But it's part of the chess game! Shut up and go look at some picture threads! I hear today's is
"The President Frolicks In the Garden"
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #67
70. Is Bo in the garden with him? Are they eating ice cream? n/t
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FLAprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #70
71. They're splitting a cupcake. It has cute little sprinkles on it.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #71
87. Well, I certainly hope they aren't *pink* sprinkles! n/t
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FLAprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #87
88. They're black, like the tire treads left on millions of people.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #88
129. That's a relief. Wouldn't be good to be seen with a girly cupcake. n/t
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:40 AM
Original message
I thought today
was "Real Manly-man Cheeseburger Day." Thanks for clearing that up.
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GodlessBiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. No. They choose which cases to defend.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. So the DOJ mining case, torture pics, etc
The DOJ, or whatever gov agency, can just let the cases go through without any answer at all. Is that right? Do they regularly do that?
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GodlessBiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #14
23. Sure. If they had to defend cases to the bitter end, they could never settle cases.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #23
30. That's not my legal question
My legal question is whether any government attorney, a city attorney, any of them - has a legal obligation to defend the law as its written. Certainly cases can be settled at some point. But isn't it better, in the long run, for a judge to decide the law than for it to become political? There's no real loss because DOMA can still be overturned in Congress.
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GodlessBiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #30
40. No, it's not better for a judge to decide. It's a waste of judicial resources...
to defend a law you do not believe should be defended.

If cases can be settled at some point, which they certainly can be, then this case should be settled now, with the settlement consisting of granting federal benefits to same-sex couples who are legally married in the jurisdictions in which they reside.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #40
45. If you want the law to be respected
Then it most certainly is better for a judge to decide. That's the problem we have now, people allowing Congress and humans to vote on what is and isn't a civil right. That was the real California wake-up call. Stop letting people and politicians vote on this and get it before the judges.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #45
49. The issue that's being confused here
Edited on Fri Jun-12-09 10:35 AM by jberryhill
Is prosecutorial discretion in the context of criminal prosecution, and the Constitutional duty to uphold the law.

Yes, a case can be settled between the US and an accused, in the context of an individual agreement between the prosecutor and that individual.

The argument being presented against you is that the DoJ - one executive agency - has the power to "settle" the constitutionality of an act passed by Congress and signed by the president, with respect to an entire class of individuals beyond those in the case.

This, of course, goes far beyond Bush's "signing statements" which got folks all riled up, and places the entirety of the US code at the discretion of the DoJ.

Normally, we assign this power to the court system.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #49
63. That's the legal basis of my question
And it's been something I've wondered about from the torture memos to the environment, and now this.

I've also been rather surprised with the willingness some people have to let Obama jam through whatever they agree with because it's okay when it's a good guy.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #63
113. Well, there's that

Bush's politicization of every government function has resulted in people believing that's the way the system is supposed to work.

Unfortunately with Obama, we have someone who understands the structure and function of government, and the limits of his own power.
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #63
153. I think you're falsely assuming that the DoJ must defend a case for a judge to hear it.
I may be wrong, but I do believe that, if the Executive did not approve of a law, but didn't want to be seen as legislating (Gods Forbid Obama should be seen as lifting a finger to help push GLBT rights)... the DoJ could elect simply not to put on a defense.

Let the petitioners argue their case... stand up and shrug in "defense"... and then... let the judge decide.

To actually both to use the defense that the DoJ used, a defense which, I'll remind you, was essentially crafted by Michael Steele:

“Now all of a sudden I’ve got someone who wasn’t a spouse before, that I had no responsibility for, who is now getting claimed as a spouse that I now have financial responsibility for,” Steele told Republicans at the state convention in traditionally conservative Georgia. “So how do I pay for that? Who pays for that? You just cost me money.”


is a sorry comment upon the point of view of the DoJ.

And, before you argue about the independence of the DoJ... first consider how Obama felt free to speak for Holder and the DoJ when he said that they wouldn't be initiating any investigations into Bush Administration alleged misdeeds. Only once you've explained how that isn't an example of un-independence of the DoJ will I listen to any arguments about the independence of the DoJ in this case.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #153
154. I'm not assuming anything, hence the question marks
I'm asking what the responsibility is of a DoJ. Did they have a responsibility to defend abortion rights laws the last 8 years? I don't know. If they didn't defend abortion law, or other similar law, as written when they should have, is that okay? I wouldn't think so. Is it okay just because of how horrific the Bush years have been? Eventually you get into that whole Nazi thing of when is law not law because of how awful it is. But you still have to try to sort it out.

What's the real law on this, not the political preference.

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #153
172. The criminal division and the Office of Solicitor General have two different functions

...and an attorney who intentionally throws a case will be disbarred. Attorneys have independent duties under the code of professional conduct.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #23
52. You're talking here about a "settlement" of the constitutionality of an act of Congress
Edited on Fri Jun-12-09 10:31 AM by jberryhill
So, really, every time a law has been overturned as unconstitutional by the court system, it was really up to the DoJ in the first instance to make that determination?

Can you meaningfully distinguish this from Bush's signing statements?

We could have dispensed with all of the Iran-Contra mess simply by the Reagan Administration "settling" the Boland Amendment, I suppose.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #52
58. I hope someone addresses the points you've raised. (nt)
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #58
104. Jerry Brown is still AG of California despite not having defended prop 8
to name one rather prominate example.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #104
107. Okay. Originally he thought he had to though, right?
If I recall, that's what he said originally, isn't it? Wasn't it kind of a big deal that he didn't defend the law?

Doesn't the AG usually defend the law, even if they disagree with it? It would explain some of these strange legal decisions is all.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #107
109. they often do but this writ is particularly egregious
It states in direct words that gays are not a suspect class and thus are not entitled to any 14th admendment protections. That means that we can't use the courts to fight any disciminatory laws, not DOMA, not DADT, and not any state which decides to fire all gay teachers, firefighters, or anyone else.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #109
111. I'm not arguing that at all
I've been wondering about their decisions in a lot of these legal cases. The only thing that made any sense was to take the legal side of the law in its craziest form, go to court, and let the court overturn the insanity. We'll see, I sure hope that's the strategy.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #107
110. Prop 8, after the vote, was a proposed amendment, and not an enacted one

Brown could do what he wanted there.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #110
122. that is baldly false
after the vote prop 8 was part of the Constitution of California, which is why marriages stopped on Nov 9th.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #122
125. The challenge was to whether it was properly enacted....
Edited on Fri Jun-12-09 12:25 PM by jberryhill
That issue is not an executive function.

Aside from which, I will admit to a lot more ignorance on the structure and function of the CA government on this state issue, than the SG office of the US and its relationship to the president in the context of constitutional challenges against the US code.
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GodlessBiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #52
96. Unless you can point to a Constitutional provision or even a statutue...
which requires the DOJ to litigate and defend to the bitter end, to go to SCOTUS if necessary, every law the Congress passes, then the DOJ is under no obligation to defend any law it believes to be unconstitutional. The whole torture memo mess instructs us that DOJ lawyers cannot simply advance any argument they wish to defend the actions of the government, no matter which branch of the government committed those actions.

Are you saying that if the DOJ loses at any stage of the court proceedings, it is required to appeal that decision to a higher court?
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #96
112. Apples and Oranges

...and that's particularly why I pointed out the blurring above between prosecutorial decisions in the criminal division, and defending statutes in the Office of Solicitor General.

The DoJ has not decided that laws against torture are unconstitutional or unenforceable, and is still deciding who, if anyone, they intend to prosecute and how. I think the DoJ has made it pretty clear they don't consider anti-torture laws to be invalid, and their actions do not have the result of invalidating them.

You are saying that a criminal prosecution of person X under law Y renders law Y unconstitutional if the DoJ makes a prosecutorial decision with respect to person X. It doesn't, and that's not what the dynamic here is. Beyond confusing the civil and criminal contexts, you are also mixing up who is on which side.

Yes, anybody who pursues a challenge to a US statute on the books is going to have the Office of Solicitor General on the other side of that challenge as far as that person seeks to pursue the challenge. In that context, the challenge is not as to the facts concerning that person at all, and the SG office is required to defend the law - not as the lapdog of the president, but as attorneys whose "client" is the people as reflected in the statutes duly written into the US code.

One of the odd things about the DoJ is that Bush, and Nixon, did not understand the extent to which certain functions of the DoJ are not really supposed to be subject to their control. As lawyers for "The United States" in the context of defending against constitutional challenges to the law, their "client" is not the president, and to act at the behest of the president's personal direction in that context is a violation of duty. That's precisely what drove us up the wall with the Nixon DoJ and the Bush DoJ.

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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #14
65. Correct
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JeffreyWilliamson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
12. The only interest Congress expressed with DOMA was its interest to discriminate...
And try to stick Clinton with a controversial issue in an election year.

I can't wait to hear the rationalizations we'll get on this one:

"The (Obama) Justice Department filed this motion, not Obama himself!" (Already making an appearance up-thread.)
"But, the administration is somehow required to defend unconstitutional laws that the President campaigned against!"
"Guys, guys, he's got his hands full with the economy, health care, etc."
"It's not a broken promise if his complete time in office hasn't ended yet!"
"Just be patient until 2010, oh wait, make that 2012, oh wait..."

And let's not forget:

"He's only been in office for five months!"

To deny federal recognition to same-sex marriages will thus preserve scarce government resources, surely a legitimate government purpose.


In other words: To deny federal recognition to same-sex marriages is surely a legitimate government purpose.

Classy move, Justice Department that I'm sure the Obama Administration has no control over whatsoever...
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #12
26. Uh, pardon me, but that's not a rationalization. It's a question.
Sloppy writing like that catches my attention.

It does not imply I think this is OK.

Jesus, the kneejerking.
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JeffreyWilliamson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #26
41. Okay, understood. As a snarky person myself I can appreciate it as a question...
However, this is an issue that touches some very deep emotions in many people. It has been my observation that, when this Administration has moved in some way in opposition to gay rights, or has appeared to go against what was promised in the campaign, and then anyone complains about it here, the statements I posted above get trotted out repeatedly and endlessly.

Consider the hurt these issues are causing so many people here, feeling as though the people they worked so hard for are stabbing them in the back. Consider the real-world implications of the policies that are being defended, and their impact on peoples' lives and families.

Perhaps playing grammar police and commenting on "kneejerking" is a little heartless in this situation.
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GodlessBiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #41
47. +1
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #41
55. I just can't wait till it's all settled and done with.
Somehow I'm still confident that DOMA will be overturned (despite Obama's obvious traitory lying bigottedness :eyes:) and so I just do not get so emotionally riled up by every move that doesn't seem to indicate that it's going to happen.

I'll try to refrain from asking questions about grammar in threads which people react more with their 'gut'. Mea culpa.
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JeffreyWilliamson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #55
75. I can't wait until it's all over as well...
DOMA will eventually be overturned regardless of whether or not any President or Congress acts.

Hah! This conversation makes me think about how many times I've called my friends out for grammar violations and given them a hard time over it. Now that I think about it, I've probably looked like a pretty big ass over the years. I have to remember to say something to them about that.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #75
79. Heh, way to tell me I look like an ass
without technically breaking a rule.

Lovely.

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JeffreyWilliamson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #79
97. The statement was an honest self-observation...
I never intended it to be commentary on anyone else other than myself. I wouldn't have posted it if I had thought it would offend.

I don't think you look like an ass, I'm just worried that I may have acted like one to people I care about. You posted your question up-thread after reading a statement that was poorly worded. I've gone over-the-top grammar Nazi on people before, belittling them for it and thinking it was funny. Our conversation made me remember that, and that I owe them an apology. That's all I was saying.
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RufusTFirefly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #12
62. Throw in the pony and a chess set, and I think you've pretty much covered them all, Jeffrey
Despicable.

Remember the silly people who chose to make a fuss about Rick Warren?

Oh, but wait: The President said he's a "fierce advocate for gay and lesbian Americans....It’s something I’ve been consistent on."

Now I feel so much better.
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #62
85. In his defense, he can't seem to remember what he promised
at least that what he said in Beverly Hills. Maybe someone should send it to him.
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #12
121. You forgot the one where anyone who thinks this action by the DOJ is wrong
will be accused of wishing McCain had won.
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
16. Well, they are absolutely correct about saving money
It will be a cold cold day in hell before I give a cent to any Democrat running for anything. This is going to save me lots and lots of money.

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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #16
83. ditto on that! nt
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
20. K&R
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
28. Well, I guess you folks didn't listen to what he said on the campaign trail
Edited on Fri Jun-12-09 10:07 AM by nichomachus
It’s wrong to have millions of Americans living as SECOND-CLASS CITIZENS in this nation. We can bring about real change for all LGBT Americans. I WILL NEVER COMPROMISE ON MY COMMITMENT TO EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL LGBT AMERICANS. I WILL USE THE BULLY PULPIT to urge states to treat same-sex couples with full equality in their family and adoption laws. I support the complete repeal of the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA). Federal law should not discriminate in any way against gay and lesbian couples, which is precisely what DOMA does. I WILL PROVIDE THAT LEADERSHIP. Together, we will achieve real equality for all Americans, gay and straight alike.


Never mind -- that was when he wanted out money and out votes. Now, we're expendable -- just another cost item to be cut out of the budget.

Some bully pulpit. Some fierce advocate. Some leadership.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #28
43.  +1 Seeing his exact words (and the 180 he made since getting elected) makes it so much worse. n/t
Edited on Fri Jun-12-09 10:22 AM by Statistical
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JeffreyWilliamson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
31. Americablog has updated with more portions of the document. It gets worse...
DOMA therefore must be analyzed under rational-basis review. Under the highly deferential rational basis standard, moreover, a court may not act as superlegislature, sitting in judgment on the wisdom or morality of a legislative policy.


Translation: Judges shouldn't legislate from the bench.

Its cautious decision simply to maintain the federal status quo while preserving the ability of States to experiment with new definitions of marriage is entirely rational. Congress may subsequently decide to extend federal benefits to same-sex marriages, but its decision to reserve judgment on the question does not render any differences in the availability of federal benefits irrational or unconstitutional.


So now DOMA is rational and constitutional?

On the merits, plaintiffs' claims that DOMA violates the Full Faith and Credit Clause and their "right to travel" both fail as a matter of law. In allowing each State to withhold its recognition of same-sex marriages performed in other jurisdictions, Congress was merely confirming longstanding conflict-of-laws principles in a valid exercise of its express power to settle such questions under the Full Faith and Credit Clause. That Clause ensures that each State retains the authority to decline to apply another State's law when it conflicts with its own public policies. DOMA is fully consistent with that constitutional principle, as it permits States to experiment with and maintain the exclusivity of their own legitimate public policies — such as whether that State chooses to recognize or reject same-sex marriages.


I don't even know what to say about this one. It flies right in the face of Loving vs. Virginia.

I've been reading for a while that the Administration has been hinting that they'll roll out some package of gay rights announcements this month to celebrate Pride and recommending we be patient until then. I was prepared to remain patient, and have steered clear of the discussions regarding these issues, but this is just about all the "announcement" I need at this point to see where we are going to stand. I'm guessing it's a safe bet as to how they will file in the GLAAD case now as well. Happy Gay Pride Month to you too, Obama Administration.

I'm blown away. I had so much hope. We really aren't going to get much of anything from this Congress or this Administration, are we? Oh, we'll get the hate crimes law, some pandering come 2012, and a lot of non-answers in press briefings regarding things like DADT.
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GodlessBiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #31
42. I feel like I did election night when Prop 8 passed. Like a kick in the stomach.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #31
48. "It flies right in the face of Loving vs. Virginia."
Certainly does.

Or maybe more pretends it doesn't exist? By focusing so narrowly on the original reasoning for DOMA, it's as if they're pretending that the precedent of Loving v. Virgina somehow doesn't apply? It just doesn't make sense.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
34. McClurkin was no fluke.
How any African American can't relate to people wanting to be equal is beyond me, but Obama manages to pull it off. :puke:
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #34
59. But it's just one song -- it's just a two minute prayer -- it's just . . . .
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #59
61. ...a pattern.
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #61
77. That's the word I was trying to think of
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
38. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #38
54. Exactly which person in the administration do you wish to see "bleed"? /nt
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RufusTFirefly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #38
73. I roundly condemn this post and all like them that advocate violence as retribution
I'll charitably assume that you are terribly misguided, rather than a troll or an agent provocateur.
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #73
80. I'll take #3 for $200, Alex.
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
39. This is disgusting.
I'm having so many reactions I don't know where to start. I'm ashamed to be straight today. I'm ashamed to be an American.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #39
72. You're a good egg and a terrific ally
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #72
89. .
:hug: I wish I could do more.
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FLAprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
50. Obama is a BIGOT and a LIAR.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #50
53. deleted
Edited on Fri Jun-12-09 10:31 AM by redqueen
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
64. Indefensible. nt
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FLAprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #64
69. you can trust that many DUers ARE defending this.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #69
74. Where? (nt)
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #74
76. Mirror -- look n/t
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FLAprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #76
78. and the threads in GD:P will pop up soon.
Aka GD:Homophobia
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #78
82. I thought that after the election
my Ignore list would get smaller. It's getting bigger. Sheesh.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #76
81. Words -- read. (nt)
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #69
105. That doesn't make it defensible.
It just makes them true believers.
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FLAprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #105
108. Exactly.
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #69
116. ...attempting to defend this - and failing miserably!
Some people don't understand that you can't defend the indefensible.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #69
120. no, thats crap. no one is defending the ruling. what people are rightly pissed about,
Edited on Fri Jun-12-09 12:34 PM by dionysus
first of all, is the headline, which is a lie.

it's cleary phrased to make it look like obama personally wrote the ruling

second, the people who clearly had no use for obama in the first place, are going to find every single thing they can to complain about, and be like "well, since the buck stops with obama ,everything that happens across the entire government that i don't like i can blame him personally for!!! YES!!!!"

if a mailman ran over a dog somewhere, the buck would stop with obama for many people here.

it's the new trend in fashionable outrage.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #120
156. A little honesty.
For the last 8 years, anything that came from the administration was put with bush's name. Bush's war. Bush's attack on the environment. Bush's firing of DOJ members. When the action was absolutely indefensible, the right wing ran out the same argument - that Bush himself hadn't really done it. It was someone in his administration.

So either this is Obama's call or he is a dupe who let's his advisers run wild. I don't want to think we have a pretty idiot as our party leader. So I go with the concept that he agrees with and wants this to be done. If he doesn't agree with it or doesn't want it to be done by his administration - get that? his administration - then he has about one news cycle to get on top of it. I would welcome his doing so. I would cheer it.

Your very weak defense of an indefensible position can only find ground if you think Obama is a weak little dim wit who can't do the job he ran for. How about directing your outrage toward the ruling instead of those of us who wish to use this forum to show that true Democrats detest this action. If you don't defend the ruling, then join us in calling on Obama to prove that he doesn't personally want this to happen. Join us in calling for him to step up to the plate here.
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
68. kick , outraged. nt
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
84. If they really want to "preserve scarce government resources"
...they should fucking get our troops, mercenaries and war-profiteering contractors out of IRAQ.

Until they do that, "preserving scarce government resources" is an absolutely shameful justification for breaking a campaign promise and discriminating against an entire swath of Americans.
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #84
86. +1
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #84
90. +2
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FLAprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #84
92. +3
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #84
101. +4
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #84
123. +5
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Libertyfirst Donating Member (583 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #84
128. +6
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #84
140. +7
:applause:
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #84
142. +8
But we'd rather blow up grandmothers in Afghanistan than give equal benefits to LGBTQ people and their kids. Some fucking democracy we got here.
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chatnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #84
163. +9
You nailed it, thank you.
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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #84
177. +1000
The Bill Of Goods continues to not deliver.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
91. This wouldn't suprise me at all ...
coming from the Bush administration.

I guess Obama's pro equality words were "just words" after all.

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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #91
93. What is amazing
is that if John McCain had been elected and filed the same brief -- which he could have -- the outrage at DU would be universal. No one would be trying to run interference for him, as they are with Obama.
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FLAprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #93
94. Any threat to Obama's infallibility here is quickly quashed.
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #94
102. What's even more amazing is
that if this brief had gone the other way and attacked DOMA, all the people here defending Obama would be claiming that "he filed a brief in favor of gay right." Not one of them would be here gibbering that he's not responsible because he didn't actually put the words on the paper himself. Funny how that works.
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FLAprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #102
106. double standards....gotta love 'em.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #102
114. If the brief attacked DOMA

Then every DoJ lawyer involved would be disbarred.

Obama is not their client in this case.
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #114
133. Really? Was Gerry Brown disbarred from opposing Prop H8?
What a nonsense claim.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #133
134. Comments on Brown above in the thread....

If there were a challenge to a procedural defect in Congress having passed a bill, that would not be the US SG's job either.

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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #133
135. Comments on Brown above in the thread

If there were a challenge to a procedural defect in Congress having passed a bill, that would not be the US SG's job either.

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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #135
137. The fact remains
that administrations do, in fact, oppose laws on the books:

George W. Bush (ACLU et al., v. Norman Y. Mineta - "The U.S. Department of Justice has notified Congress that it will not defend a law prohibiting the display of marijuana policy reform ads in public transit systems."), Bill Clinton (Dickerson v. United States - "Because the Miranda decision is of constitutional dimension, Congress may not legislate a contrary rule unless this Court were to overrule Miranda.... Section 3501 cannot constitutionally authorize the admission of a statement that would be excluded under this Court's Miranda cases."), George HW Bush (Metro Broadcasting v. Federal Communications Commission), and Ronald Reagan (INS v./ Chadha - "Chadha then filed a petition for review of the deportation order in the Court of Appeals, and the INS joined him in arguing that § 244(c)(2) is unconstitutional.") all joined in lawsuits opposing federal laws that they didn't like, laws that they felt were unconstitutional. It is an outright lie to suggest that the DOJ had no choice.


http://www.americablog.com/2009/06/obama-doj-lies-to-politico-in-defending.html
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #137
141. These were appeals,
or at the Supreme Court.

One involved allowing a voluntary confession and the DOJ tried to skirt the obscure federal law argument altogether. It was only when it was clear that Miranda was going to be argued that the Clinton DOJ opposed that portion.

The marijuana law was on appeal, and was so bad that this is what the ACLU said, and this is the Bush Justice Dept. refusing to defend an Inhofe sponsored law.

"The Justice Department finally met a law so unconstitutional that it could not find any way to defend it."

The California AG has also argued against Hammer and Smelt, so it's not just the DOJ on this. The AG has a responsibility to defend the law as its written. The Courts and the Legislature are responsible for the validity of any given law. Not the DOJ or AG.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #141
161. Ah crap. I got sucked in by that in another thread.
All this confusion...
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-14-09 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #133
183. Better Update Your Understanding Of Jerry Brown

Brown supported a procedural challenge to Prop 8, when the issue went to the CA state court.

Now that the court has ruled:

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/06/12/Brown-Dont-suspend-Proposition-8/UPI-63831244853440/

Brown filed a motion with a federal appeals court late Thursday, urging the court to allow Proposition 8, which bans same-sex marriage, to remain in force while a federal challenge is decided, the Los Angeles Times reported. California voters approved Proposition 8 in November, amending the state constitution to strip same-sex couples of the right to marry.


Now that a CA state law faces a federal challenge, do you know what Jerry Brown's job is?

Apparently not.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
99. Pony...weren't paying attention in the primaries...3d Vulcan chess, etc. ad nauseum. nt
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #99
100. k
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #99
173. You forgot "I trust and have faith in him" and "he's smarter than me"
:puke:
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-14-09 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #173
184. And "he's the smartest motherfucker in the room!"
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
103. Now batting for Rick Santorum -- Barack Obama
The courts have followed this principle, moreover, in relation to the validity of marriages performed in other States. Both the First and Second Restatements of Conflict of Laws recognize that State courts may refuse to give effect to a marriage, or to certain incidents of a marriage, that contravene the forum State's policy. See Restatement (First) of Conflict of Laws § 134; Restatement (Second) of Conflict of Laws § 284.5 And the courts have widely held that certain marriages performed elsewhere need not be given effect, because they conflicted with the public policy of the forum. See, e.g., Catalano v. Catalano, 170 A.2d 726, 728-29 (Conn. 1961) (marriage of uncle to niece, "though valid in Italy under its laws, was not valid in Connecticut because it contravened the public policy of th state"); Wilkins v. Zelichowski, 140 A.2d 65, 67-68 (N.J. 1958) (marriage of 16-year-old female held invalid in New Jersey, regardless of validity in Indiana where performed, in light of N.J. policy reflected in statute permitting adult female to secure annulment of her underage marriage); In re Mortenson's Estate, 316 P.2d 1106 (Ariz. 1957) (marriage of first cousins held invalid in Arizona, though lawfully performed in New Mexico, given Arizona policy reflected in statute declaring such marriages "prohibited and void").
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OKNancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
118. please read an article that doesn't spin this
and states facts not opinions:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/06/11/state/n214337D49.DTL&tsp=1

The U.S. Justice Department has moved to dismiss the first gay marriage case filed in federal court, saying it is not the right venue to tackle legal questions raised by a couple already married in California.

The motion, filed late Thursday, argued the case of Arthur Smelt and Christopher Hammer does not address the right of gay couples to marry but rather questions whether their marriage must be recognized nationwide by states that have not approved gay marriage.

"This case does not call upon the Court to pass judgment ... on the legal or moral right of same-sex couples, such as plaintiffs here, to be married," the motion states. "Plaintiffs are married, and their challenge to the federal Defense of Marriage Act ("DOMA") poses a different set of questions."

It's a different case from a recent federal lawsuit by two unmarried gay couples in California who claim a civil right to marry under the U.S. Constitution.

The government said Smelt and Hammer seek a ruling on "whether by virtue of their marital status they are constitutionally entitled to acknowledgment of their union by states that do not recognize same-sex marriage, and whether they are similarly entitled to certain federal benefits.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #118
126. this thread is all about pushing the spin, to gin up some outrage.
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #126
152. Sure, along with
The ACLU, GLAD, Lambda Legal, NCLR, HRC and the NGLTF

Who have all expressed outrage at Obama's betrayal -- I guess they're all spinning and ginning too.

(Not that you would ever do anything like spin.)

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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #118
132. please read the brief itself
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #132
143. +1 /nt
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Libertyfirst Donating Member (583 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
127. Obama has always opposed gay marriage. That is a fact. He
simply hides behind the economic argument in this instance. We could also limit payments to those who marry after 50 since they "certainly" only do so to receive federal benefits.
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #127
130. Thing is some people thought he was lying about that, because he also had them convinced he was
going to be a fierce advocator for them.

thing is, he wasn't lying when he said he beleived marriage being between a man and a woman,he was lying when he said he told the gay community this:

I WILL NEVER COMPROMISE ON MY COMMITMENT TO EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL LGBT AMERICANS. I WILL USE THE BULLY PULPIT to urge states to treat same-sex couples with full equality in their family and adoption laws. I support the complete repeal of the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA). Federal law should not discriminate in any way against gay and lesbian couples, which is precisely what DOMA does. I WILL PROVIDE THAT LEADERSHIP. Together, we will achieve real equality for all Americans, gay and straight alike.
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #127
131. He promised to work to repeal DOMA -- he lied
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #131
136. The Office of Solicitor General Cannot "Repeal" A Damned Thing /nt
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #136
138. I've got to give you credit
you're working really hard on a lost cause.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #138
144. And what would that "lost cause" be?
Edited on Fri Jun-12-09 02:45 PM by jberryhill
I'd like to see DOMA and DADT repealed.

I'd like to see Congress undo them, or I'd like to see the Supreme Court strike them down.

I'd like to see another Supreme Court replacement before that happens, or some really bad law is going to be made.

I'd like to see Prop H8 undone.

I'd like to see my daughter's marriage recognized in my state.

So, please, indulge me on the "lost cause" I support.

I didn't realize this thread was about me.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #144
151. All the things you mention seem like lost causes right about now
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #151
165. Based on very recent, and very rapid, trends, I disagree

In how many states was marriage equality the law just a few years ago?

In how many states is marriage equality the law today?

Those opposed are fighting the historical tide, and that tide is coming in without anybody waving a magic wand.


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Veruca Salt Donating Member (846 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
139. Holy fucking shit
DOMA ensures that evolving understandings of the institution of marriage at the State level do not place greater financial and administrative obligations on federal and state benefits programs. Preserving scarce government resources — and deciding to extend benefits incrementally — are well-recognized legitimate interests under rational-basis review.


Even with that huge backhanded slap to the face; you've got your 4 years buddy and I'll be waiting for you to do right by us.

You wanted to lead in the vein of Lincoln well you definitely are on the right path; bigoted for your time period but lets see if you can overcome said bigotry to do the right thing like Lincoln.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #139
160. The brief also compared same sex marriage to incest, and the brief was written by an LDS
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Veruca Salt Donating Member (846 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #160
167. That frikkin figures!
Edited on Fri Jun-12-09 06:27 PM by Veruca Salt
Shit I am so fucking mad I can't even think! WTF just WTF. ARGH. :argh:

on edit: And fucking hell, incest?! After everything he fucking said on the campaign trail about equal rights?!?!?!?! I wouldn't doubt if there's a bit on pedophilia in there too! I couldn't read that far since just the part about us costing the government too damn much money if we're equal to married straight people pissed me off beyond belief! That was a big enough what the fuck moment! Who the fuck do they think they are... are we only good for our checkbooks?! It sure damn feels that way! ASSHATS.

I still don't feel better after that rant. x(
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
166. "... in the absence of a new law, the government is duty-bound to enforce the laws of the land..."
The Department of Justice insists that Pres. Obama wants Congress to change DOMA... but in the absence of a new law, the government is duty-bound to enforce the laws of the land unless they are clearly unconstitutional... The response from Obama aides has generally been... Trust us. We're doing what we can. We'll get this stuff done. But it will take some time. We've got a lot on our plate.

"Note that the standard for defending a statute, once enacted, is lower than whether, in our judgment, it is constitutional," a senior administration official said. "It is whether there are arguments that can be made. The DOMA statute has been found constitutional by at least 6 courts and has never been struck down. Whatever we think, it would be pretty hard to say that there are not 'reasonable arguments' with that context."


Link: http://politics.theatlantic.com/2009/06/obama_admin_hearts_doma_do_gays_still_heart_obama.php



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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
175. Laurence Tribe on the DOMA brief
Why Smelt posed a weak legal challenge to DOMA:

As someone who wants to see DOMA dismantled and invalidated, I would love it if this ninth circuit case would evaporate into the ether.

Even though I personally believe that DOMA is unconstitutional, I think that this particular lawsuit is very vulnerable; it’s not anywhere near as strong as the one that was brought in the federal district court in Massachusetts (a suit filed by Gay and Lesbian Advocates and Defenders).

In an environment where the Supreme Court is still quite conservative, what makes a suit a strong one is that it finds a point of entry in which it’s possible to invalidate a law in a number of its applications by using more of a scalpel that might appeal to five justices rather than a bludgeon that will almost certainly ask more of the court than it is willing to do.

What’s strong about the Massachusetts case is that these are concrete situations of people who are legally married under the laws of states like Massachusetts or Vermont, and who are being discriminated against by the federal government with respect to federal benefits simply because they are same-sex couples. There’s no other difference between them and other couples in that state, and the court could agree with that without accepting any of the broader theories advanced in the (Smelt) lawsuit in the central district of California, which is basically a bet-the-farm lawsuit that almost dares a conservative Supreme Court to slap it down.

<...>

Defending congressional statutes:

Under the traditions of the solicitor general’s office, the government does have an obligation to provide a defense in any lawsuit where there is a plausible argument to be made, even if the president does not agree with the law.

<...>

There are ways for the president to get rid of DOMA. He can advocate for its repeal, he can eventually urge the solicitor general to join in a more surgical attack, but he certainly isn’t obliged to go along with every plaintiff who brings a lawsuit.

The important point here is that the solicitor general traditionally seeks to dismiss lawsuits against federal laws whenever there is a plausible basis to do it. A lot of the outcry about the administration’s position doesn’t take that institutional reality into account.


Link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8467442
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Jack_DeLeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
179. Its all about money with this guy...
It seems like every other day there is some new tax to pay for all kinds of new government waste.

Well, Obama is definately not for "tax cuts."
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-13-09 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
180. Lead name on brief and assistant Atty. General hand picked.


http://www.equaljusticesociety.org/2009/01/president-appoints-tony-west-as-asst-attorney-general-civil-division/

President Appoints Tony West as Asst. Attorney General, Civil Division
Posted by keith on Friday, January 23, 2009 ·

President Barack Obama yesterday announced his nomination of Morrison & Foerster partner Tony West to serve as Assistant Attorney General for the Civil Division of the Department of Justice.

“I am grateful to have these distinguished individuals joining my administration, and I have the greatest confidence that their service will meet the highest standards of this department,” said President Obama. “The American people deserve to have faith that their Justice Department will keep them safe and uphold our most basic rights. This group has the depth of experience and integrity necessary to accomplish these goals.”

“Tony has been an outstanding leader in the firm,” said Steven M. Kaufmann, the Chair of Morrison & Foerster’s Litigation Department in a statement. “He is a tremendous trial lawyer, mentor, and colleague. We will miss Tony as our partner, but are proud that he will bring the skill, values, and dedication that he demonstrated at Morrison & Foerster to the service of the American people. The Justice Department gains a tireless public servant and talented lawyer.”

Tony has been a longtime supporter of the Equal Justice Society. In 2006, he hosted at MoFo and emceed a packed gathering of summer law firm associates to introduce them to the Rollback Campaign. EJS organized and promoted the event.

All of us at EJS congratulate Tony on his appointment and wish him the best at DOJ.





EJS:

http://www.equaljusticesociety.org/grandalliance/

Marriage Equality
· Submitted an amicus brief in support of the California Supreme Court’s decision to affirm the right to marry for same sex couples
· Participated in campaign to defeat Proposition 8 in November, 2008
· Signed onto an amicus brief challenging the validity of Prop 8 as part of a coalition of organizations representing communities of color and facilitated LGBT/Black alliance in the wake of Prop 8’s passage




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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-13-09 08:34 AM
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181. Um, Obama is NOT defending DOMA. By law, the DoJ does NOT communicate w/Pres. Obama on cases.
Edited on Sat Jun-13-09 08:36 AM by ClarkUSA
Despite all the hoopla, the assertion that "Obama defends DOMA" simply is NOT true.

You see, the Department of Justice has a legal obligation to defend the United States when it is a party to a criminal or civil action. This has already been pointed out by some people and promptly dismissed by those determined to lay all the blame on Obama, however, try to deny that truth as one might, it is the truth.

This is laid out under Title 28, Section 547 of the United States Code:

United States Attorneys conduct most of the trial work in which the United States is a party. The United States Attorneys have three statutory responsibilities under Title 28, Section 547 of the United States Code:

•the prosecution of criminal cases brought by the Federal government;
the prosecution and defense of civil cases in which the United States is a party; and
•the collection of debts owed the Federal government which are administratively uncollectible.

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/index.html


But....but....but it's still Obama's fault! It had to be cleared with Obama! Obama had to have OKed the brief! Obama's hand is all over this! Obama hates the gays........

WRONG!

You see, under The United States Department of Justice - United States Attorneys Manual, TITLE 1; DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE ORGANIZATION AND FUNCTIONS (http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title1/title1.htm), there is a section titled "Department of Justice Communications with the White House" (http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title1/doj00032.htm).

It reads, under Section 32:

It is imperative that there be public confidence that the laws of the United States are administered and enforced in an impartial manner. To that end, all components of the Department of Justice, including United States Attorneys' Offices, shall abide by the following procedures governing communication between the Department of Justice and the White House.

<...>

Pending Civil Investigations and Cases

The Department shall provide the White House with information about pending civil investigations or cases only when doing so is important for the performance of the President's duties and appropriate from a law enforcement or litigation perspective. Except with respect to national security matters, all initial communications that concern or may concern a pending civil investigation or a case pending at the trial level should take place only between the Office of the Counsel to the President and either the Office of the Deputy Attorney General or the Office of the Associate Attorney General, all initial communications that concern or may concern a civil case pending at the appellate level should take place only between the Office of the Counsel to the President and the Office of the Deputy Attorney General, the Office of the Associate Attorney General, or the Office of the Solicitor General. If appropriate with regard to a particular case or investigation, the Office of the Counsel to the President and the senior Justice Department official with whom the White House is dealing will design and monitor a process for ongoing contact between the White House and the Justice Department concerning that particular matter.


What does that mean? Well, it means pretty much what it says. In order to keep politics out of the process, the Department of Justice does NOT consult with the President, nor does it asks for the President's permission, nor does it brief the President in legal matters in which the United States is a party unless it "is important for the performance of the President's duties" or deals with "national security matters."

There is absolutely no concerted effort by President Obama or the Obama Administration to deny gay people anything, or to defend DOMA.

Simply put, it's just governmental business as usual, meaning the Department of Justice is simply doing what it is required BY LAW to do.


Link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8468149&mesg_id=8468149
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