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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 03:53 PM
Original message
After 8 Years OF Unethical Bush meddling With The DOJ, People Forget How It's Supposed To Work
The DOJ MUST have a great deal of autonomy. Ethically, it is WRONG for a president to interfere in the business of the DOJ.

So don't blame a DOJ briefing or filing on Obama.

Blame them on Eric Holder. He's the one responsible. As an attorney, Obama knows damned well and good he cannot have any influence upon DOJ filings.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. Is it okay to blame Holder on Obama?
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
23. Absolutely
but it's a bit late to do anything about Holder right now unless he violates the law or some ethical requirement.
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. Selectively amnesia-ing Obama speaking about the DoJ interest in investigations, aren't you?
Obama felt perfectly justified in steering DoJ policy in that case, for political reasons. In this case though, it would've been unethical?

So the AG is free to defend laws that contradict policy positions of his/her boss as much as he/she feels like it? And, I suppose this means that Holder could have attorneys of the DoJ just stop defending any laws at all, if he felt like it? It is unethical for the President to have an opinion on how a law is interpreted... but there is no such question of ethics when the AG interprets a law in order to defend it?

I think you're over theorizing...
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Tangerine LaBamba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
3. Actually,
we can blame these last two pronouncements on the previous administration, since it's more than likely that these briefs were written by Fuckface-era appointees, the kinds with law degrees from Liberty University Law School (an oxymoron?), the kind who have civil service written all over them, and, so, are very, very difficult to dislodge.

That's what's going on here...................
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Well, the administration is piling up bad will in the way these cases
are being handled. In the absence of better information, people draw their own conclusions.
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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. At least one of them named on the brief is an Obama appointee
I checked. Another one is a Mormon. x(
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Tangerine LaBamba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. People who sign off on it
aren't the people who write it, but, sure, I wish it hadn't been filed, and the oversight should have been stricter.

See, we can never know who actually researched and wrote it, but, ultimately, of course, the responsibility for it falls on Holder, and by association, Obama.

It's really unfortunate. I'm very sorry to learn about it................
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. Tony West, Obama appointee.
He's the Asst. Atty. Generals whose name tops that brief.

Matt Miller, Obama appointee and DOJ spokesperson issued a statement today defending the brief.
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Tangerine LaBamba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. As I said, the person who signs off on it,
isn't involved in the writing of it, but, yes, he bears responsibility for it, as does Holder, as does Obama.

I'm not defending any of it, but I do believe it's good for people to understand how these things work...............
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county worker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
4. Hey, your messing with some DUers' most favorite thing here.
"Obama screwed me over WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!"
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Didn't you just say not an hour ago that you supported the gay community?
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
27. Don't confuse yourself with the gay community
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-13-09 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #5
41. I didn't believe it then -- I know you didn't, either
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foxfeet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. How courageous of you to take our human rights so seriously.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. We are whiners that think we're the only ones in America that have it tough:
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. You're a bully and a coward
for kicking people when they're down.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. and on an anonymous public forum. nt
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
37. WTF?
Why is this shit allowed here?
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
6. Alyways the same argument. I don't think people care. n/t
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. You said a mouthful. People DON'T CARE,
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Tangerine LaBamba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. I hope you're wrong .........
I think people do care........
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #16
31. Unfortunately, even if you're right, the politicians don't have the nerve to find out.
I'm starting to suspect that that theory from '05.. the one that claimed that it was Gavin Newsom and his legalizing Gay Marriages in San Francisco... which led to the uproar and spate of Anti-Gay Marriage bills on state ballots in '04... which led to increases in Evangelical turnout... which led to W defeating Kerry in '04 (of course voting irregularities in Repub controlled OH played no part in that defeat)...

I'm starting to suspect that Obama, or some close policy advisor, has really bought into this. Someone, I suspect, has bought so many shares of this theory that he/she is afraid to even take the slightest chance on doing something that might prove it wrong... and whoever it is, has a very important voice in one of Obama's big ears.

Well, either that, or Obama just lied his ass off during the campaign...
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Tangerine LaBamba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. To my dismay,
I agree with you about Obama.

The disappointments mount, and I am losing hope ..................
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
17. The president isn't supposed to tell the Justice Dept whom to prosecute...
...but he's responsible for Friends-of-the-Court briefs on how a law should be interpreted.
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solstice Donating Member (278 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
18. Who's president - Obama - or BUSH? Yes it IS that simple. You can't have it both ways.
If Obama is for the repeal of DOMA, then let him SPEAK UP.

His silence speaks volumes, and there is no way to spin it.

The fact that anybody would even try is just disgusting.
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. That's a fair criticism
Blaming the DOJ filing on him isn't.

Criticvizing him for not speaking out about it is.

I would suggest, though, that Obama made his stance on gay marriage crystal clear during the primaries and the general election.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
19. You have been corrected on this many times already. Starting your own OP won't make it relevant.
This from Ms. Toad, who I think explained the relevance of the DOJ's brief more clearly:

"...This is a motion to dismiss which affirmatively defend(s) DOMA on ridiculous and offensive grounds.

Motions to dismiss are ALWAYS optional - no need to file anything.

In addition, if they had waited until the appeal brief was filed, they would be responding to arguments made (and could do so in a way that addressed the limited subset of arguments made by those opposing DOMA).

With a motion to dismiss, they are creating the arguments - so the fact that they created these offensive arguments when they could have remained silent (or responded solely to arguments raised by the opponents of DOMA) is all the more abhorrent."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5835553&mesg_id=5836016
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Again, that's the DOJ, not Obama
Obama has taken the correct tack with this.

Holder hasn't.

Take it up with Holder.
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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. I didn't vote for Holder. I voted for his boss. - n/t
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
20. I think the best thing to do is call the White House and complain -- that brief is horrible
Edited on Fri Jun-12-09 04:44 PM by emulatorloo
I find it difficult to believe Obama was aware of this.

Phone Numbers

Comments: 202-456-1111
Switchboard: 202-456-1414
FAX: 202-456-2461

TTY/TDD

Comments: 202-456-6213
Visitors Office: 202-456-2121
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
24. "... in the absence of a new law, the government is duty-bound to enforce the laws of the land..."
The Department of Justice insists that Pres. Obama wants Congress to change DOMA... but in the absence of a new law, the government is duty-bound to enforce the laws of the land unless they are clearly unconstitutional... The response from Obama aides has generally been... Trust us. We're doing what we can. We'll get this stuff done. But it will take some time. We've got a lot on our plate.

"Note that the standard for defending a statute, once enacted, is lower than whether, in our judgment, it is constitutional," a senior administration official said. "It is whether there are arguments that can be made. The DOMA statute has been found constitutional by at least 6 courts and has never been struck down. Whatever we think, it would be pretty hard to say that there are not 'reasonable arguments' with that context."


Link: http://politics.theatlantic.com/2009/06/obama_admin_hearts_doma_do_gays_still_heart_obama.php



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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #24
34. As attorneys, ethics DEMANDS they zealously defend the interests of their clients
Their client is the Unnited States Government and their client has this law called DOMA in place.

As the counsel of record for the United States government, all DOJ attorneys are ethically bound to zealously defend DOMA in court.

Sorry, but that's how the legal profession works.
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konnichi wa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Yes but no MORE zealously than the client requests.
No ethical standards require a lawyer to pursue a matter beyond the point of compliance with the wishes of the client...if that were not the case nobody could ever fire an attorney or plead guilty against his advice.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. And they have to support their arguments with lies and falsehoods?
Man, when did I miss that in school?
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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
28. Ethically it may be wrong, but what does the law say?
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
29. I'll blame them both thank you very much.
An independent DOJ is one of the things we've lost. Everything now goes under the theory of executive branch guidance.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
30. Lead, follow or get out of the way.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
33. Laurence Tribe on the DOMA brief
Why Smelt posed a weak legal challenge to DOMA:

As someone who wants to see DOMA dismantled and invalidated, I would love it if this ninth circuit case would evaporate into the ether.

Even though I personally believe that DOMA is unconstitutional, I think that this particular lawsuit is very vulnerable; it’s not anywhere near as strong as the one that was brought in the federal district court in Massachusetts (a suit filed by Gay and Lesbian Advocates and Defenders).

In an environment where the Supreme Court is still quite conservative, what makes a suit a strong one is that it finds a point of entry in which it’s possible to invalidate a law in a number of its applications by using more of a scalpel that might appeal to five justices rather than a bludgeon that will almost certainly ask more of the court than it is willing to do.

What’s strong about the Massachusetts case is that these are concrete situations of people who are legally married under the laws of states like Massachusetts or Vermont, and who are being discriminated against by the federal government with respect to federal benefits simply because they are same-sex couples. There’s no other difference between them and other couples in that state, and the court could agree with that without accepting any of the broader theories advanced in the (Smelt) lawsuit in the central district of California, which is basically a bet-the-farm lawsuit that almost dares a conservative Supreme Court to slap it down.

<...>

Defending congressional statutes:

Under the traditions of the solicitor general’s office, the government does have an obligation to provide a defense in any lawsuit where there is a plausible argument to be made, even if the president does not agree with the law.

<...>

There are ways for the president to get rid of DOMA. He can advocate for its repeal, he can eventually urge the solicitor general to join in a more surgical attack, but he certainly isn’t obliged to go along with every plaintiff who brings a lawsuit.

The important point here is that the solicitor general traditionally seeks to dismiss lawsuits against federal laws whenever there is a plausible basis to do it. A lot of the outcry about the administration’s position doesn’t take that institutional reality into account.


Link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8467442
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konnichi wa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
35. So the Chief Executive cannot exercise influence on the operations of the DOJ
but a mere cabinet officer CAN?

That's fucked up.


(but of course it's completely wrong)
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
39. After 8 years people aren't used to seeing governing
Rove ran things simply to dominate each news cycle and cement the next one-line campaign strategy

2002 it was THE WAR (are you unAmerican?_
2004 it was WITH US OR AGAINST US (are you going to vote against your country?)
2006 uh....ran out of steam at that point...uh ARE YOU DEAD YET? ( Bush personally saved you and your children) ---didn't work anymore
2008 HE IS UNKNOWN!!! (yes Rove was still running things don't kid yourself)
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-13-09 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
40. You're right. Here are the laws that assert Pres. Obama's impartiality (links, sources, quotes -->)
Edited on Sat Jun-13-09 08:33 AM by ClarkUSA
Despite all the hoopla, the assertion that "Obama defends DOMA" simply is NOT true.

You see, the Department of Justice has a legal obligation to defend the United States when it is a party to a criminal or civil action. This has already been pointed out by some people and promptly dismissed by those determined to lay all the blame on Obama, however, try to deny that truth as one might, it is the truth.

This is laid out under Title 28, Section 547 of the United States Code:

United States Attorneys conduct most of the trial work in which the United States is a party. The United States Attorneys have three statutory responsibilities under Title 28, Section 547 of the United States Code:

•the prosecution of criminal cases brought by the Federal government;
the prosecution and defense of civil cases in which the United States is a party; and
•the collection of debts owed the Federal government which are administratively uncollectible.

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/index.html


But....but....but it's still Obama's fault! It had to be cleared with Obama! Obama had to have OKed the brief! Obama's hand is all over this! Obama hates the gays........

WRONG!

You see, under The United States Department of Justice - United States Attorneys Manual, TITLE 1; DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE ORGANIZATION AND FUNCTIONS (http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title1/title1.htm), there is a section titled "Department of Justice Communications with the White House" (http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title1/doj00032.htm).

It reads, under Section 32:

It is imperative that there be public confidence that the laws of the United States are administered and enforced in an impartial manner. To that end, all components of the Department of Justice, including United States Attorneys' Offices, shall abide by the following procedures governing communication between the Department of Justice and the White House.

<...>

Pending Civil Investigations and Cases

The Department shall provide the White House with information about pending civil investigations or cases only when doing so is important for the performance of the President's duties and appropriate from a law enforcement or litigation perspective. Except with respect to national security matters, all initial communications that concern or may concern a pending civil investigation or a case pending at the trial level should take place only between the Office of the Counsel to the President and either the Office of the Deputy Attorney General or the Office of the Associate Attorney General, all initial communications that concern or may concern a civil case pending at the appellate level should take place only between the Office of the Counsel to the President and the Office of the Deputy Attorney General, the Office of the Associate Attorney General, or the Office of the Solicitor General. If appropriate with regard to a particular case or investigation, the Office of the Counsel to the President and the senior Justice Department official with whom the White House is dealing will design and monitor a process for ongoing contact between the White House and the Justice Department concerning that particular matter.


What does that mean? Well, it means pretty much what it says. In order to keep politics out of the process, the Department of Justice does NOT consult with the President, nor does it asks for the President's permission, nor does it brief the President in legal matters in which the United States is a party unless it "is important for the performance of the President's duties" or deals with "national security matters."

There is absolutely no concerted effort by President Obama or the Obama Administration to deny gay people anything, or to defend DOMA.

Simply put, it's just governmental business as usual, meaning the Department of Justice is simply doing what it is required BY LAW to do.


Link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8468149&mesg_id=8468149
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