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masuki bance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 11:07 AM
Original message
700 NYC teachers are paid (65 million) to do nothing
"It's sort of peaceful knowing that you're going to work to do nothing,"


NEW YORK – Hundreds of New York City public school teachers accused of offenses ranging from insubordination to sexual misconduct are being paid their full salaries to sit around all day playing Scrabble, surfing the Internet or just staring at the wall, if that's what they want to do.

Because their union contract makes it extremely difficult to fire them, the teachers have been banished by the school system to its "rubber rooms" — off-campus office space where they wait months, even years, for their disciplinary hearings.

The 700 or so teachers can practice yoga, work on their novels, paint portraits of their colleagues — pretty much anything but school work. They have summer vacation just like their classroom colleagues and enjoy weekends and holidays through the school year.

...

Because the teachers collect their full salaries of $70,000 or more, the city Department of Education estimates the practice costs the taxpayers $65 million a year. The department blames union rules.

"It is extremely difficult to fire a tenured teacher because of the protections afforded to them in their contract," spokeswoman Ann Forte said.

City officials said that they make teachers report to a rubber room instead of sending they home because the union contract requires that they be allowed to continue in their jobs in some fashion while their cases are being heard. The contract does not permit them to be given other work.


...

Similarly, Mimi Shapiro, who is now retired, said she was assigned to sit in what Philadelphia calls a "cluster office." "They just sit you in a room in a hard chair," she said, "and you just sit."

...

"There was a bar across the street," Saunders said. "Teachers would sneak out and hang out there for hours."
...

"The day just seemed to crawl by until I started painting," Cohen said, adding that others read, play dominoes or sleep. Cohen said she was charged with using abusive language when a girl cut her with scissors.

Some sell real estate, earn graduate degrees or teach each other yoga and tai chi.

David Suker, who has been in a Brooklyn reassignment center for three months, said he has used the time to plan summer trips to Alaska, Cape Cod and Costa Rica. Suker said he was falsely accused of throwing a girl's test sign-up form in the garbage during an argument.

"It's sort of peaceful knowing that you're going to work to do nothing," he said.
...


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090622/ap_on_re_us/us_rubber_rooms



Hook me up.
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
1. Having been a teacher in a "progressive" state (California).
I can tell you that kids can be mischievous (and sometimes downright evil) and that teachers, and men especially, are under a constant potential threat from false accusations of anything you can imagine.

It's not pretty.

Administrators can't let accused teachers stay with kids and they can't rightly let them go.

It would be much better, however, if teachers under suspicion could be given more productive things to do.

Perhaps they could work in adult ed classes or as classroom assistants under supervision.

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Mike 03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-24-09 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
115. That is what scares me away from being a teacher. NT
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
2. Bitch about unions elsewhere.
n.t.
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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Here seems fine
Look at all the non union/anti union auto manfacturer owners that post here.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Didn't realize that was a problem
But teacher bashing is a sport here :)
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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. I guess I get defensive and notice it
because I'm a retired UAW member.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. You can count me as in your corner
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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. Thank you
:hug:
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #9
71. No Anti-Union Sentiment Here
My dad was a Teamster. He made a good living and worked his ass off. He deserved what he made. He wouldn't have made it without the Teamsters.
GAC
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. He's upset that Japanese auto manufacturers make superior products.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. I don't think it's fair that retired auto workers are losing benefits
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nyc 4 Biden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. Not according to this article...
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #17
78. GM retirees are losing their health insurance, aren't they?
I thought I read right here on DU, that their insurance is canceled on July 1?
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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #13
21. Anti union defender post #1
They'll be more.
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Irreverend IX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #21
40. If you UAW members wanted people to buy more American cars...
Why didn't you storm into the Big Three executives' offices and tell them you'd strike unless they started designing cars a rational person would want to buy? They dug their own graves by blowing off quality control. It sucks that union members were caught in the middle, but people depend on their cars to survive and you can't expect them to buy something that spends twice as much time in the shop as the competition.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #40
55. You are grossly overestimating the power a union has
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babythunder Donating Member (342 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #40
56. What alternate universe do you live in
that you think there is a remote chance of this type of scenario taking place?
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #40
72. Silly
Just silly. No more can be said.
GAC
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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #40
74. That's bullshit
and you know it. Keep believing it though. In time you can rationalize your stance.
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Irreverend IX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #74
97. The only one rationalizing is you.
The expression "Found on Road Dead" didn't come about by accident. The auto executives thought they could shit on their customers with impunity, and the UAW stood by and watched. The CEOs drove the US auto industry over a cliff while you sat in the back seat. It doesn't matter if US cars are now just as good as foreign ones, the damage to their reputation has been done.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #21
41. Oh, I'm not anti-union at all. I'm a union man.
I just wish American car companies would stop making shit.
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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #41
75. They are better
Take a good unbiased look.
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Winterblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-24-09 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #21
104. Do you recognize any problem here at all?
I don't know whether there is blame to lay, either on Unions or on Management but I do believe this is a problem. I am not convinced Tenur is all that great. IMO a lot of people will sometimes lose their objectivity over time and sometimes even tend to become callous or jaded. IMO teachers should undergo a review every five years or so, with a full scale audit of their actions every decade. That way good teachers get better and the bad gets weeded out.
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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-24-09 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #104
105. That makes too much sense
I'm with you.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #13
60. Big fat lie!
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
48. Really? How many recs did this thread get?
I count zero.

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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #2
22. Right. It is only permissible to bitch about students with disabilities here.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5904176&mesg_id=5904176

Seems that one school district wasting $65 million merits at least as much discussion and recommends as the supreme court "killing public schools in the US" by forcing them to educate kids, even if it costs $65,000.
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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #22
32. Way to ignore the facts in that thread
Like how the student didn't even attend the public school before his parents demanded a handout.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #32
39. If that were one of the facts, you might have had a point.
But the point of this thread is the complete waste of $65 million.

When did anti-stupidity become anti-union?
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #22
61. The teachers' unions have become a 3rd rail of Dem policy.
Any criticism of them gets you called a right-winger that wants to destroy public education. Yes, some "criticism" is right-wing BS", but some of it is not. I am normally very pro-union, but I make an exception for public education because the self-interest of teachers can run counter to what is in the best interest of the students.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
28. not all unions or union rules are a good thing.
a power-mad union is no better than a power-mad dictator.

it's no secret that teachers unions are often a HUGH impediment to honest and NEEDED reforms.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #28
42. That's complete bullshit
I have consistently received better training from my union than from my school district. Teachers unions PROMOTE reforms. They don't stand in the way.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #42
91. it's not bullshit in chicago.
and i doubt that chicago's teacher's union is the only one that puts protecting the jobs of CRAPPY teachers with tenure over the education of the students.
and there are A LOT of REALLY crappy teachers with 'tenure', which is a completely ludicrous concept to begin with, especially in a competitive job market like the one we currently face. it should be the best and the brightest that get/keep the jobs, NOT the ones that have just been there longer.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-24-09 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #91
99. The Chicago teachers union is an affiliate of my union
I am fairly familiar with their struggle but can't begin to relate to the violence in the community that spills over into their schools. Those teachers in Chicago deserve our praise rather than criticism.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-24-09 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #99
101. you're just another part of the problem. sheesh...
:eyes:
yes, union teachers can do no wrong, and we should all be lining up to kiss their holier-than-our asses.

one BIG question- why do you feel that it is okay for teachers unions to protect the jobs of CRAPPY teachers?
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-24-09 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #101
107. Yep 30 years of not earning what I'm worth. 30 years of buying school supplies
for kids whose parents either choose not to or can't afford them. 30 years of paying for field trips out of my own pocket. 30 years of sponsoring kids at Christmas who have about a zero chance of being visited by Santa Claus.

But I am part of the problem.

Who knew? ROFLMAO

Once again, unions don't protect bad teachers anymore than they hire or fire them. Unions just force school districts to abide by contracts. Your beef is with the employer, not the employees or their union.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #28
62. Calling the "teachers unions" unions is an insult to unions and makes them look bad.
This is why the knee-jerk defense of teachers unions is so dangerous. Education is a special case when it comes to labor relations but it's easy for the Pukes to take justified criticism of teachers' unions and twist people into hating unions in general. The fact that the interests of students are involved is why education is a special case when it comes to labor relations, the self-interest of teachers can conflict with the needs of the students.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #62
79. The teachers unions care more about the kids than most administrators do
Don't fool yourself.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #79
83. Given how crappy administrators are that's a really low bar you are setting.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #83
85. LOL I'll give you that one
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #79
92. how does protecting crappy teachers with tenure show concern for the students, exactly...?
just curious.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-24-09 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #92
100. There is this thing called a contract that school districts agree to abide by
That contract lays out the procedures for firing 'crappy' teachers. Unions don't protect them; they make sure districts follow procedure when terminating employees. Few do which explains why 'crappy' teachers don't get fired. Ensuring due process is not the same as protecting bad teachers.

It's also very easy to get a teacher out of a classroom. But school administrators are rarely the sharpest knives in the drawer.
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montanto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-24-09 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #92
108. How does the fact that someone accused a teacher
or wrongdoing constitute a crappy teacher? Just curious.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #28
66. Oh, and another thing, I do not think unions are automatically good. In my ideal co-op-based...
...market economy unions would not be necessary because the employees collectively own their company and hire and fire the management. As it is unions can degenerate into defenders of the status quo exactly because they exist to promote the self interest of their members.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #66
93. how would that work with teacher/police/fire dept/etc.. unions...?
they can't own their company. :shrug:

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
3. I was wondering when this would be posted here.
This is the kind of crap they'll use as ammo to try to starve public schools.

Administrators and unions need to work together to stop waste like this or they'll find their jobs privatized.

Like the poster above said... find something for them to do. This is indefensible.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
4. It would cost them less if they just let them stay home while the accusations are pending
One case in NYC I heard about involved a 62 year old teacher who was accused of some trumped up charge. She was sent to the rubber room, and waited and waited and waited...When she turned 65, he case was nowhere near resolved, so she simply resigned to go on Social Security.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
6. In my district they are assigned clerical positions
This is just stupid. I also doubt very seriously the union is asking for anything other than due process. It's also not the union's fault that the school district can't do this in a timely fashion.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. A reasonable solution.
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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #6
19. There has never been an issue in my district that hasn't been
resolved in a matter of months, not years. That is just absurd.
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notesdev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
8. Getting paid to do nothing
is par for the course in government jobs, per my observations. I have quit more than one such job because I was embarrassed to be associated with people who didn't have the basic decency to put in an honest day's work for their day's pay.

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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. You quit more than one such job for that reason? I'd like to hear the story. Thanks.
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notesdev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #10
27. Which one?
I got plenty of them. What do you want to hear about? The guy who plays FreeCell for $80k/year plus that outrageous benefits package? The lady who knew less about her highly specialized job function than I could figure out in 5 minutes of reading a manual? The woman with net negative productivity, who instead of working bragged about how she ripped off her own parents so that she could drive a Mercedes? The project manager who demonstrably did not know the first thing about project management? The team of 'engineers' who met with hostility any suggestion that they perform even the most basic maintenance on the systems which they were hired to operate? The guy with two offices who told the people in each that he was at the other, and when caught, claimed to be telecommuting? The office that functions like a social club since no one is expected to actually do anything (which, by the way, look an awful lot like the 'rubber room' described above)? The operations groups which don't even pretend to perform their functions? The contractors who make out better by not meeting their contract obligations than if they did? The joys of cost-plus contracting?

I'm still under confidentiality obligations for some of it, so on those topics I can't name names or anything... but on others I can.
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #27
46. Same thing in private enterprise.

Though the big trend nowadays appears to be unnecessary work rather than not working at all.

Used to piss me off as well. But I finally came to the realization that with modern technology if we fired everyone who wasn't needed the country would have 80% unemployment. Our economic system requires people to simply have an income, not to actually do much of anything.


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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #46
57. I have not seen it most of the places I work
although I have seen slackers at both government and industry jobs. There was usually plenty of stuff that needed doing, or could be done, but these people don't or won't do it. It's hardly 'typical' of government work in my experience, although people love to complain with a broad brush.
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Bill McBlueState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #27
51. that's a luxury to be able to quit a job because you don't like your co-workers
Consider yourself fortunate.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #27
69. Yikes, I'd be embarassed too!
:wow:
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
11. Anti-union attack piece.
Why are they on suspension? How do the cases generally turn out? How many are returned to work in the end? If it takes the system months to adjudicate on a case, that's not their fault or the union's. Should they be starved while they wait for a decision? Would that be better?
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spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
54. That cuts right to the heart of it.
Blaming the union and its workers for things the company (in this case school board) does and how they do it. Typical media spin. You're absolutely spot on.
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surrealAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #11
58. Yup. Just why is the school district taking months or even years ...
... to have a hearing? If it turns out the teacher did nothing wrong, why should they be punished for that time?
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
14. Bogus.
"Because the teachers collect their full salaries of $70,000 or more"

NYC teachers don't typically make $70,000 or more.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. Um yes they do
High cost of living in NY. Those teachers make considerably more than teachers in the Midwest. Long Island teachers often earn over $100k.
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-24-09 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #18
111. Um, no they don't
Starting salary is something like 48,000 a year. My sister who has credits over a Masters but not a PHD is making around 65,000.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #14
26. At the top end, ours make more than that.
And that's way out here in Colo.
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jpljr77 Donating Member (580 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #14
29. Incorrect.
Edited on Tue Jun-23-09 12:03 PM by jpljr77
NYC teachers are paid a minimum of $45,530 (for a Bachelor's degree and no teaching experience) up to a maximum of $100,049. A first time teacher in the NYC system with a Master's and 8 years of experience would make $74,796. There are also bonus opportunities. http://schools.nyc.gov/TeachNYC/SalaryBenefits/Salary/Salary.htm | Source>

Same for where I live, Montgomery County, MD (suburban DC). Teachers are very highly paid. My wife has 9 years experience and a Master's and a base salary of $65,000.

Teachers are paid well in areas that give a shit about education.
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etherealtruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #14
65. that's ~ what the teacher's in our area earn
... Metro Detroit
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
23. Well, perhaps there is something wrong with the disciplinary process, yes?
Who's getting paid to let those cases sit for years unaddressed, hmm?
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
24. Why So Long to Get Disciplinary Hearings? A Year? An Outrage
Edited on Tue Jun-23-09 11:55 AM by NashVegas
Seriously. That's on the administrators, not teachers.
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #24
81. NashVegas FTW.
The teachers have no say-so over any timetable set by the administration for any hearing they might have to attend.

If instead of dragging their feet and expediting these hearings, and have them within thirty days instead of, well, whenever, none of this would be happening and these issues could be resolved in a timely manner.

And a student can accuse a teacher of anything, at any time, with little or no backlash. We all know all children are perfect little angels and would never tell a lie.

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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
25. Sounds like they need to shift funds to dispute resolution.
Why does it take so long? We've never had a teacher on admin leave for more than a month or so.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
30. the City needs to expedite hearings
Justice delayed is justice denied. This is the fault of the School officials unable to administrate their own districts.
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devilgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
31. That settles it!!!! CLOSE ALL THE SCHOOLS!!!! THEY'RE A BANE OF SOCIETY!!!!
:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:
:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:
:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:
:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:
:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:
:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:
:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:

What horse shit.
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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
33. How many police officers under investigation/suspension in NYC are getting the same deal?
Just curious.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. in chicago, cops get a 30-day notice of any 'random' drug-testing...
Edited on Tue Jun-23-09 12:29 PM by dysfunctional press
per union rules.
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masuki bance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #35
49. That's a good one. nt
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #35
70. How CONVENIENT!
:crazy:
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #70
94. however- if you crack up the squad car...you gotta make pee-pee in a cup a lot sooner.
Edited on Tue Jun-23-09 09:45 PM by dysfunctional press
i think there are other things that can trigger automatic drug-testing, as well.
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
34. K&R for labor.
You'd think these intelligent folks could be given productive work to do. Still, they shouldn't be fired for an unsupported accusation, either.

:dem:

-Laelth
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HelenWheels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
36. I call bullshit
no contract is that good (bad). There is always an opening to fire people for good cause. If not blame the school board and administrators for being idiots for agreeing to the contract. The unions job is to negotiate a contract that is best for the people it represents if those they negotiate with are so stupid as to agree to such a deal as to have no where to go with a bad teacher it's their own fault.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #36
43. What makes you think they are all bad teachers?
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HelenWheels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. I don't
I know that management can go after someone for no reason at all and I'm sure that some of the 70 if not most of them are probably there for just that reason.

I was just saying that if there is a bad teacher there are legitimate ways to fire them.

I also think that management likes to have some teachers in this limbo so they can point out how "horrible" the union is.
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masuki bance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. The principals aren't in the union? nt
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. Principals are management
No they are not in the teachers union.
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TimesSquareCowboy Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
37. Solution: Hear cases faster.
But that would require the employer to hire attorneys, etc. So, the employer has made a decision that this is the most cost-effective way of handling the situation.
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
38. Someone made a documentary about this.
http://www.rubberroommovie.com/

It paints a very different picture. It's not exactly fun vacation playtime to have to report to a room and sit and do nothing every day for years simply because you've been accused of something by a vindictive student.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
45. That photo brought back memories of Jury Duty.
Unfortunately, the media eats this stuff up, and Rush & the Gang use this stuff to pretend that ALL teachers are that well-paid, and the NO teacher can ever be fired..
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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
52. 'This American Life' has a segment about this
350: Human Resources

The true story of little-known rooms in the New York City Board of Education building. Teachers are told to report there instead of their classrooms. No reason is usually given. When they arrive, they find they've been put on some kind of probationary status, and they must report every day until the matter is cleared up. They call it the Rubber Room. Average length of stay? Months, sometimes years. Plus other stories of the uneasy interaction between humans and their institutions.

Listen here: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?sched=1286
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
53. Sign me up!
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
59. And DUers wonder why many people hate the teachers' unions.
"It is extremely difficult to fire a tenured teacher because of the protections afforded to them in their contract,"

In other words, once a mediocre, emotionally abusive teacher is in good luck getting rid of him or her. It's a fucking cabal.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. So these teachers are all guilty in your eyes?
Did you even bother to read the article or did you just get stuck on stupid when you got to this quote by a school district spokesperson?
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #63
73. No, of course not.
I was making a more general comment about the difficulty of firing crap teachers.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #73
77. I don't understand why this would be the union's fault
First of all, the union doesn't hire "crap teachers". The district does. The union is also not responsible for holding "crap teachers" accountable. That, again, would be the school district's responsibility. And the union doesn't fire "crap teachers"; the union doesn't even employ them. One more time - that is the district's role.

So why are you blaming the union? :shrug:
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #77
82. If a teacher turns out crappy and he or she has gotten tenure it's hard to get rid of them.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #82
84. Tenure is a state law
So once again, why are you blaming the union?
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. It's the unions that lobby for it.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. Unions aren't the reason we have tenure laws
Edited on Tue Jun-23-09 08:19 PM by proud2BlibKansan
Tenure was awarded long before we had any unions.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #87
89. Doh, my bad.
But the article said that there are union rules making it very hard to fire tenured teachers, that was the source of my concern.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #89
90. And those rules are agreed to by the school board
They are part of the teachers contract.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-24-09 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #59
98. False statement.
It's not difficult to fire a teacher. The process is in place. I've known several teachers in districts I've worked in who were fired.

Including my union president, quickly and for good cause, in 2001.

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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-24-09 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #59
112. This isn't the fault of the teacher. It's the fault of management for not
conducting their hearings sooner.

Oddly enough, there's not a lot of outcry to get rid of asshat administrators.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
64. Blame the union because teachers have to wait months/years for a hearing?
Edited on Tue Jun-23-09 05:18 PM by rucky
that the BOE is supposed to organize?

It would be more convenient to just fire them without a hearing, I suppose. That's why teachers have unions.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. A compromise solution...
would be to allow them to do other work in the meantime, should they be so inclined. $65 million is small change in the context of the overall NY school budget, but this situation is clearly no good for anyone involved.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. Or pay a couple mil to get faster hearings.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
76. It is not at all difficult to fire a teacher for sexual misconduct.
Harder for "insubordination," and it is supposed to be. Tenure protects a certain amount of academic freedom.

The bottom line? It's up to the district to prove their case and fire the teacher, or fail to prove their case and put them back in the classroom.

A "speedy trial" issue.

Not everyone, of course, describes the rubber rooms as places to "play Scrabble," "surf the internet," etc..

I believe the "rubber rooms" are used to punish teachers when there isn't enough evidence to fire them.

From this article in 2000:

<snip>

These employees, Mr. Levy said in his memo, sit in ''rubber rooms,'' so called because the teachers have nothing to do and are bouncing off the walls with boredom.

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/03/01/nyregion/speed-is-urged-in-disciplining-of-teachers.html

And from this in 2007:

<snip>

Many UFT members have not been told why they are there; and until the UFT started to ratchet up the pressure on the DOE, it had refused to give the union the names of the members in the rooms or the charges against them. However, after a meeting between UFT President Randi Weingarten and DOE Deputy Chancellor Christopher Cerf, that may change.

For too long, the withholding of information enabled the DOE to keep repeating the myth that educators are reassigned there for sexual assault reasons which, from the union’s investigations, appears not to even remotely be true.

And in the city where freedom of the press was established by the John Peter Zenger case 50 years before it was codified in the Bill of Rights, the DOE is now trying to fire a teacher because he “caused widespread negative publicity and notoriety to the HS of Fashion Industries and the New York City Department of Education in general when his unprofessional behavior was referenced in a UFT newspaper.”

Such a move, if allowed to stand, will inhibit workers and their unions from reporting corruption in city government and will render moot the city’s whistle-blower law.

http://www.uft.org/news/teacher/top/rubber_room/

More in 2007:

<snip>

The room in question was about 1,100 square feet and on blueprints submitted to the Fire Department was designed to hold 26 people. On this day, it contained upward of 75. It had no windows, no land phone, no Internet access, no wall decorations, not even a clock. Any personal belongings left overnight were removed by custodians.

Some of the occupants faced criminal charges like assault, while others had been brought up by city education officials for termination due to incompetence or other causes. Still more, including Mr. Valtchev, had not yet received a formal letter specifying any allegation. Until their cases are resolved, which can take years, all are required to spend the 181 days of the school year in the rubber room.

And although the teachers there receive their full salaries, the stale, spartan conditions and the absence of any physical or intellectual stimulation provide a ceaseless reminder that in some respects they are guilty until proved innocent.


http://international.ibox.bg/news/id_54441846
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roody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
80. If the administrators were doing their jobs,
the complaints would have been processed.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #80
88. Bingo
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cagesoulman Donating Member (648 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
95. "Cohen said she was charged with using abusive language when a girl cut her with scissors."
WHAT is this woman doing out of her job? If some little asshole cuts you with scissors, you're not always going to be sunshine and flowers. Why was this girl cutting her teacher with scissors?
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-24-09 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #95
102. What do you want to bet the girl who cut her is back in school?
Just a hunch.
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AwakeAtLast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-24-09 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #95
114. The teacher/union bashers in this thread seem to have missed that little point.
:thumbsup:
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cagesoulman Donating Member (648 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
96. It's not the union--it's the fucking district.
Edited on Tue Jun-23-09 10:46 PM by cagesoulman
"But because their cases are heard by 23 arbitrators who work only five days a month, stints of two or three years in a rubber room are common, and some teachers have been there for five or six."
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-24-09 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
103. wow, they can't just be fired for no reason?
how fucked up is that?

:sarcasm:
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-24-09 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
106. interesting how some used this as an opening to attack unions
as if they gave a shit about the subject matter to begin with.
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-24-09 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #106
109. most people have no job protection at all
and thus are quite envious of those who have managed, through union organizing, to actually have some sort of work arrangement that is not simply post-modern feudal.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-24-09 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #109
113. I'm one.... not in the Union
Edited on Wed Jun-24-09 02:16 PM by fascisthunter
but fully support those who do. I think unions are pinnacle to protecting workers from those in the upper eschelon who seek to take advantage of people/workers.

Without a union, you are at the whim of upper management.
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montanto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-24-09 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
110. I'm so sick of people who don't know shit about this topic
talking about this topic. All of the recent "news" on this front has been from the same perspective and many people here eat it up without even wondering if there is another side to the story.
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