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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-25-09 12:44 PM
Original message
Why Torture Prosecution Demand Will Grow
(Remarks at Torture Accountability Action Day rally in Washington, D.C., June 25, 2009 -- video of this and other speeches at AfterDowningStreet.org)

Have you ever held a little baby in your arms? Raise your hand if you have. A toddler is as delicate and precious as a baby, but able to move around and get hurt. Bigger kids can move faster and farther. Our instincts should be to protect them.

I was reading yesterday about a boy who was probably 12 years old when our nation imprisoned him in 2002. We held him in Afghanistan, but I don't mean "held" in the sense in which one lovingly holds a baby. We put a hood on him, stripped him, shackled him and shoved him down stairs. We brought him to Guantanamo, kicked him, beat him, broke his nose, pepper sprayed him, and deprived him of sleep for many days. In 2003 he tried to kill himself by slamming his head against a wall.

This boy, like most Gitmo captives, does not stand accused of international terrorism. And the evidence that this boy had, at 12 years old, fought back against the illegal aggressors in his country comes from torture, so our government is seeking to hold him forever without putting him on trial. He's now 19, having spent his entire teenage years in a death camp, in a place where the only way out appears to be death, and if our government has its way he'll move to some other death camp so that we can "close Guantanamo" and he'll be held there forever and ever until he dies, with his jailers performing annual reviews that they will grotesquely refer to as "due process." Meanwhile, prosecuting those who tortured this child, those who ordered it done, those who provided legalistic justifications, or those who created the entire torture program is not yet even under consideration.

I was on a radio show last night and a man called in to accuse me of perversely targeting the United States government for criticism and taking up the cause of the worst criminals on earth, when I could be focusing on fighting diseases that kill many more people than we have tortured. Well, many of us are active in campaigning for better healthcare, but pointing to some other cause of more deaths and injuries never excuses a crime. Torture is a crime. A president can pardon it. He cannot legally prevent our Justice Department from prosecuting it. And when he does, and we sit back on our couches and cheer for Iranians taking to the streets, then our president and all future presidents acquire the power to ignore all laws. Already our State Department has lost the ability to tell other nations not to torture, including nations that might torture the sort of people that all callers to radio shows in the United States can be counted on to care about, namely Americans. In fact, we can all agree quite easily that torture should be punished when Americans are the victims of it. The trick is to shift our attention to cases in which Americans are the perpetrators and yet maintain our ability to think straight. A poll today says a strong majority supports banning all torture. No news on what percentage knows it already is banned.

It is not at all clear, in fact, that any disease I could be researching a cure for takes more lives than US torture does. We've tortured many people to death. According to the U.S. military and the FBI, US torture has been a major recruiting tool for anti-U.S. terrorists and a cause of the death of thousands of Americans. And we tortured to force false confessions justifying an attack on Iraq. We even did so after the invasion. That invasion and occupation has killed over a million Iraqis and thousands of Americans at enormous cost in dollars and in safety and prospects for peace. One justification for the war was to stop Iraqi torture, but Iraq now tortures and America can say nothing against it. In fact we can say nothing against any war crimes or the crime of aggressive war. We have made the greatest horrors permissible.

Most of the people we have tortured have been innocent of any wrongdoing. And there is no evidence that torture has saved anyone's life. Expert interrogators do not use torture because it does not work as quickly or as reliably as other methods. So torturing someone to save your kidnapped child (which callers to radio shows will explain to you is the purpose of all torturing) would be less likely to save your kidnapped child than relying on a skilled interrogator.

Torturing people brutalizes the torturers as well, damaging them and those they live with. Torturing damages our society, brutalizing the thoughts and practices of prison guards, police, and citizens. And, most damaging of all, torture establishes the myth that certain people cannot be spoken to and must be brutalized. This creates horrible prejudices, because the people who supposedly must be tortured are always defined as part of a certain racial, religious, or cultural group that comes to be seen as sub-human. This allows torturing them to be justified as both an interrogation tool and a punishment without any need for logical coherence.

Torture is illegal and morally wrong with no imaginable utilitarian exceptions to that rule. It is our job not just to condemn torture but to prevent it, to deter it. And the only way to deter it is to stop treating it as a policy difference, start treating it as a crime, and quit attempting to look forward with our heads shoved up our ass.

Numerous reports document ongoing torture in Iraq, in Bagram, and in Guantanamo. As long as torture is not treated as the crime our laws make it, prison guards holding people outside any legal system are going to torture. You cannot end torture and yet not punish it, because only punishing it can end it. Justice Marshall back there behind me (a statue in the park) would think we'd put a king back on the throne.

There may be a vote today in Congress on whether to require that the military video tape its interrogations. That would be a start if it could get through the Senate, but will there be a penalty for not doing so, or for destroying the tapes? And what about the FBI and CIA? The president's task force is expected to recommend that teams formed from these two agencies interrogate captives in one way if they plan to charge them with crimes, and a different way if they just plan to illegally hold them. Our founding fathers designed systems expecting the worst of people. This plan requires better than angels. And as long as we do not prosecute torturers, these are the sorts of plans we will see.

The Park Service threatened to charge us with a crime if we demonstrated waterboarding here today. The Park Service should march with us this afternoon to the Department of Justice where we will expect the same demand to be made with regard to Richard B. Cheney.

While I work with a lot of groups on this issue I want to say a word about Progressive Democrats of America (PDA) because Joanne O'Neill stepped up and led the organizing of this day, and PDA is leading events in other cities today, as well as having led the struggle for peace and justice and impeachment and prosecution for a long time now. Principle before party. Peace before profits. Go to PDAmerica.org.
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pleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-25-09 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. K&R
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Winterblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-25-09 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
2. I see the demand for accountability fading and not growing.
They are going to get away with it and in fact get away with a whole lot of money as well. America is not the country I used to believe it was. It willingly will allow torturers to escape any and all prosecution and in fact will try and turn it around on any accusers and make it out that they are unAmerican and hate our troops..
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-25-09 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Precisely. It was self evident from the get-go: team players don't sabotage the systems they serve
People tend to talk about what they care about.

So, stop and think of all the various people you encounter throughout an average day.

How many of them, or anyone within earshot, do you hear discussing such matters?

Exactly.
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Independent_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-26-09 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. I disagree. I think it's still growing, even though it may not seem like it.
They'll only get away with it if we want them to. I'd say it's up to us. You can say, "Haven't we tried this all before?" and "What more would we need to do?" I'd say it's a matter of our attitudes toward it. If we keep perpetuating this idea that nothing will change, then nothing will. But if we look deep within ourselves to explore our different options, what we've tried, and what does and doesn't work, only then can we help ourselves understand which direction we need to direct our efforts.

Deep down inside, I know everybody around here wants justice as much I and the next guy do. The problem is people need to get past their feelings of helplessness. The truth is we are NOT helpless. We HAVE been making a difference. Maybe just a little bit at a time, but as I look back, I feel we've actually accomplished more than we actually realize.
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Kitty Herder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-26-09 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. I hope you're right, but it's hard to believe anyone cares anymore since I don't hear anyone
talking about it. I've gotten discouraged.

It's outrageous to me that we aren't talking about this everyday, that it isn't discussed on every fucking television news show.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-25-09 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
4. K&R
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csziggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-25-09 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
5. K&R
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-25-09 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
6. My heart tells me we are going to confront this crime
sometimes I get discouraged when I read some of the comments here but I have to at all cost to me believe that we, America will do what is right on this one
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-25-09 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
7. That's not going to do it. It should, but it won't.

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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-25-09 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
8. K & R. n/t
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-25-09 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
9. ' boy who was probably 12 years old when our nation imprisoned him in 2002'
If we, as a nation, are willing to let that go unpunished, we likely will see the day when such, uh, "methods" are employed on our own children.

Thank you, David Swanson, for demanding Justice.
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swilton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-25-09 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Politics rather than morality or legality
will determine whether or not these criminals are punished! Keep up the good work and thank you for fighting the good fight David!

:kick:
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Duval Donating Member (377 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-25-09 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
11. K&R n/t
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-25-09 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
12. An Australian WWII vet said to me recently regarding torture - "We are better than that"
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Piewhacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-26-09 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
13. Thank you, david. Rec.
Well said. thank you.

Respectfully, although your debate was well stated, I do not personally
debate the "merits" of torture with those who would seek to defend or
justify it, for it is not a legitimate debate, nor should it be dignified as such.

Torture is an abomination against ALL mankind and ALL of his his gods, an act
of depravity so fundamentally at odds with civilized conduct that it cannot be
allowed for man or animal.

Torture strips away the humanity of those who inflict it, those who must endure it, and
those who must bear the knowledge of its practice. This is a simple matter. No "benefit"
is derived from it and even if there were, by some twisted perversion of logic or morality,
some arguable benefit, the merits of it are buried in the avalanche of harm flowing
from it. Torture is not seriously "debatable", only defiantly proclaimed by the sociopathic
and criminals. End of "debate".

Opposition to torture must be resolute and uncompromising. Those who would justify torture
are too dangerous to society to allow to remain unbesmirched. Those who solicit, order, aid,
abet or practice torture cannot be allowed to remain among civilized man, and should be imprisoned.
That is not for "debate", it is for action. Prosecute war criminals.


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johnhkennedy Donating Member (30 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
16. Only If WE put forth the effort! It Will.
Only if Every liberal, Every progressive, Every Democrat, Every Constitution loving Republican
does something every day to cause Torture Accountability will we actually have it.

We at ANGRYVOTERS.ORG are doing our little bit daily
to help all progressive groups with their petitions to
prosecute Bush, Cheney and their Torture advocating lawyers.

We do it by doing the thing we all do everyday already.
Commenting on news articles and blogs.



We as a nation cannot move forward until we deal with the criminality of Torture.

Obama and our Congressional Democrats will not be able to maintain absolute power unless they prosecute Bush's Torturers.


PLEASE

SIGN THE PETITION & Forward it to all

http://ANGRYVOTERS.ORG

God bless

NOTE: We are helping progressive groups cause prosecution of the torturers simply by doing the commenting we normally do on related news articles and blogs. It really Works! Takes no more time than you already devote to commenting.

How do we do that. Simply by adding the text below after our daily comments on news articles and blogs.

SIGN THE PETITION
To Prosecute Those who Tortured In Our Name at ANGRYVOTERS.ORG

http://ANGRYVOTERS.ORG
-------------------------------------

It Really Is THAT SIMPLE.

Do this yourself on related articles and you will reach readers who are sympathetic to prosecution for those who conspired to torture.

One of our commenters causes over 5,000 new petition signers to go to the petitions each month.

If you were to help by just adding our Url to the bottom of a half dozen of your daily comments you too could help add 5,000 signatures a month to the Petitions to Indict and Prosecute Bush, Cheney and staffers who conspired to Torture in our Name.

SIGN THE PETITION To Prosecute Bush's Torturers at ANGRYVOTERS.ORG Over 250,000 signed - Add your Signature Today
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