The premiere of the Thriller video was not your Woodstock.

It was a fun video that mostly reused special effects from Landis' "American Werewolf in London"
Certainly the album was a cultural phenomenon, but those who think this was their Woodstock, don't understand what Woodstock was.
It's not even The Beatles on Ed Sullivan.

Thriller was a top-notch album... and Michael took advantage of the "new" medium of MTV better than most.


But nothing in his life was as culture-changing/defining as Woodstock.

ERA, Beatles where in the 50' and 60's

Michael came in 70's and 80's two different era all together.

Sure - the were playing small venues in the 50s, but no one heard of them outside of their group until 1962.

Yes. The beatles and elvis were bigger than MJ.

Get Informed.

The audience is growing increasingly fragmented. I remember my entire family gathered around the TV to watch the Thriller video. Did that happen with anything else of my generation? No. You're trying to say how huge Woodstock was, and how huge Ed Sullivan was, and I agree, but my point is that due to the increasingly fragmented nature of the music market and the cultural universe, my generation had nothing bigger than the premiere of the Thriller video when we were young. If not that, well, we HAD no Woodstock or Ed Sullivan, get it? Nothing brings large groups of people together in that way any more.

Kind of like aless self centered, more philanthropic version of Woodstock.

:shrug:

Jackson was a cultural icon. An American Icon. A World Icon. He had the biggest selling record of all-time, of any genre. He co-wrote "We Are The World". Maybe no one specific event was as big as Woodstock or Ed Sullivan or something that the Beatles did, but he was indeed one of the top musical performers of all-time.
While you may not agree, or may not even like him, you might want to try and let those who do mourn for their fallen star with a bit of class and dignity, instead of trying to point out what he wasn't.

wasn't even an original idea.

Bob Geldolf's BandAid performed "Do They Know It's Christmas" in 1984 - a year before "We Are the World."

And - the BandAid song was far superior, too.

;)

:eyes:

It depends on the taste of the one who listening...no more, nothing less

Your childhood was not as good as mine!
Your icons are not as good as mine!

Whatever, dude.

I was 10 and the Motown 25 special was epic.

Boomers are as diverse as any other cohort and it makes no sense to hate an entire cohort.

So there.

Pfffffffffffftttttttttttt.

I hate Baby Boomers.

And Belgians.

They know why.

Hate hurts you far more than it does anyone else.

They hurt bad.

The same as the slackers of the 90s - if you identify yourself as a Baby Boomer and adopt that happy self satisfaction, well that's your choice.

Bryant

as a seminal cultural moment. Bigger than Woodstock, because of its global impact and its ushering in of a new style.

Woodstock was the end of a cultural moment, an amalgam, a medley of already consumed musical moments. It's import was the audience and the setting.
Thriller (the album mostly, and the video/s) defined a unique new style of popular culture involving song, dance, attitude, dress. It was not my generation's music (I was 32 when it came out), but I bought it, I listened to it, I danced to it with a baby in my arms.

But not the Belgians!

Most of the bands that played at Woodstock sucked anyway.

I was 25 and screamed my head off over the Beatles, was in awe of Woodstock, and yes MJ was on par. Not once, but many times. All boomers aren't the same.

and they're not going to let the rest of us forget it.

Ever.

one of my icons.

My icons of the 80s are The Clash, Depeche Mode, Duran Duran, Fleetwod Mac and so on.

:rofl:

Why not Loverboy?

:shrug:

Now look what the music industrial complex has brought upon us... Woody Guthrie would have never been allowed to do a music video...

Some are calling "Thriller" "Our Woodstock"??? pfffft!

:rofl:
" Vincent Price hosts "Up With People!" "

The hippies all sold out, and the boomers are now are so desperate for "greatest generation" treatment that they've resorted to endlessly complimenting themselves.

My generation had two woodstocks and then they had to quit doing more woodstocks because we were too fucking rebellious!

I didn't, and there are scores of others right here at DU, who would strongly disagree.

you are simply wrong

What they've done with the world since they've been in control is disgusting.

:think:

The corporate media saw us coming and gave us "Up With People", The Partridge Family, The Brady Bunch, The BeeGees, The Farrah Fawcett poster with the nipple (RIP), The Banana Bunch, The Monkees (though i thought they were subversive in their own right) and a host of other "hip" stale chalk programming meant to placate any counter-culture ideas we the youth might have had sprouting in us during that time.

They shot us down at Kent State, beat us to a bloody pulp in Montgomery, Chicago, Berkley and Watts, assassinated our leaders (you know who), overdosed our rock stars... they stopped at nothing to put us in our place. As Lester Bangs so aptly put it- "War's over- They won!"

And you, dear consumer, are a direct result of their victory!

The picture is NOT meant to reflect my feeling toward you, Romulox. Rather it personified how many of us "dirty fucking hippies" feel to this day toward the military industrial complex that is America today. My personal hero-

If ever there was a man who is emblematic of his times, it's Bill Clinton.

I'm guessing you were never a teenager, based on the snarly content of your critique.

I'm sorry that I ever got on you lawn.

not ALL of them sold out but you make a good point

already signifies how important a star Jackson was. And, although, I liked his music and Jackson 5 music, I think the whole dance over-the-top productions with music ruined a lot of pop music for me.

does the figure 100 million impress you in any manner?

You get to define that for yourself and others get to define it for themselves. See how that works?

I think so.

Bryant

Well turn it up!

Yes, it was an important event. But come on - it was a four-day concert, fer Chrissakes!
How can a four-day concert "define a generation"??

GAC

:eyes:

We have.

Cultural icons are what they are -- and Elvis, the Beatles, Woodstock, and Michael Jackson stand as touchstones in world culture and need not be ranked in importance.

Have I mentioned how much I despise this faux competition in the arts? Leave that to the sports world and business vultures -- not our musicians and singers! Which is why I do not watch or support the Grammys or any other arbitrary awards for artistic endeavors.

Elvis, the Beatles, Michael Jackson -- loved by millions (with many of the fans overlapping) and that's all that matters is that people found joy in the music.

it is complete nonsense.
It's not the Oscars or American Idol.

;)

...from this Child of the 60s.

BTW: If you remember the 1960s ~~ you did not LIVE the 1960s!

:evilgrin:

Thriller was a music video that was fun

it was declared a free festival so no trespassing by the vast majority

and most of the "lawbreaking" was a little pot, naked swimming and some folks doing stuff like lsd etc (but that happens everywhere.

Woodstock was about the music MORE than anything else. Peace and Music. And I think MJ was about that as well.

Harumph, dude.

and thriller while fun was after all commercial mass marketing.

Woodstock was (or turned into) a freeby for kids of all ages. Never made a dime as far as I know.

And made it so?

The lawbreaking wasn't the drugs - hell that's de rigeur for a concert. Especially in the sixties

when i got there it was free

so I guess maybe a handful of the 400,000 people ramped over the fences first.

i never got the details.

But to generalize that it was some celebration of lawlessness is kind of absurd.

Natural laws of course were in action

and there was some anarchy I guess. but even anarchy has its rules, doesn't it?

Since I don't know how or when the fences came down or how and when the promoters declared it free - I can't say EXACTLY.

But I think you were casting aspersions on the event that were totally unnecessary.

Corporate greed being what it is, Thriller and MTV might have been way bigger criminal events than simple trespassing and free concert views.

But after all Thriller was a capitalisitic endeavour too. It succeeded at it where woodstock really did not. it succeeded as a countercapitalist event.

To me, the Baby Boom Generation real "moment" was Kent State, because that was the moment that the rest of the US turned their backs on the "establishment" and supported the protesters. And it kept us from putting (more) troops on the ground in Cambodia and Laos.

For the 80's - it had to be the tearing down of the Berlin Wall. Besides everything else, it was the moment when we all realized that Ivan wasn't not hell bent on our destruction, but that they were just like us.

CSN&Y

It's all related but I get your point.

I just have to object to you being derogatory towards woodstock.

i got enough of that from rednecks and john birchers back then.

i don't need it now from a DUer.

But while Kent state was indeed a seminal moment, there were many moments of import (but maybe none so important as that). The 1968 Democratic Convention. The chaining and gagging of Bobby Seale, the murder of Fred Hampton, MLK, RFK.

Woodstock was about showing what peace and love could do and I do believe that Michael Jackson was about that too. (And they both were also about money where the promoters were concerned - it was the POSITIVE cultural IMPACT of these events which made them important.

Jimi Hentrix's set for starters - CSNY's debut as well - Sly and the Family Stone playing into the night

I just balk when I hear the whole "defining moment of our generation"

There were far more defining moments - Chicago DNC Convention, Kent State, March on Selma, the list goes on

Woodstock was just a show people didn't pay for. A good show, but the beginning of the planned media event in American Journalism.

Well - hard to argue with illogic

except to just disagree

I stand by my earlier post (#49)

Each of these things has its place and its value and its meaning.

There need be no competition or disparagement.

I have never been to burning man, for example, but I would guess it is a lot like Woodstock in many respects and grew directly out of it.

And while woodstock was a major media event primarily BECAUSE it attracted so many folks (and this was due primarily to its proximity to NYC, it ws hardly the first major music festival to get huge media. And it was more the beginning of more counterculture mass media awareness and marketing as opposed to the "beginning" of such events. It made good copy and helped sell record and magazines (especially nude hippie chicks) and newspapers. It gave the right wing and haters something to froth at the mouth about.

The Newport Jazz Festival was too suh an event and albums of those concerts were selling like crazy AND Sly Stone did that concert first in the summer of 1969 (and it was a much better show --- and fences were torn down too --- I was there).

Monterey Pop festival had been the big rock jam with Hendrix as a headliner prior to Woodstock.

But Woodstock, like MJ, was entirely unique in many ways and gave rise to so much more... including MTV and therefore Thriller.

Defining moments can be argued endlessly as to relevence and significance.

I just don't get the need to be derogatory about it.

but it was not needed

I went to woodstock

I went to the premier of the movie in NYC

I went naked in the pond there

I even found a backstage pass and said hi to Janis when she got off the helicopter

shook a totally zonked sly stone's hand.

but

i also saw michael jackson in concert (Miami circa 1975). Not too big a deal. arena show and they suck

"I Want you back" came out right after Woodstock (MJ was 9 or 10 years old)

it was a seminal event and changed R&B soul and pop music forever (as did Santana's Black magic Woman around the same time)

for the record the acts at Woodstock were AMAZING! Hendrix, Jefferson Airplane, Janis, Santana (my favorite performance) Crosby stills & Nash, even Sha na na. Canned Heat. C'Mon! Mindblowing. I was just a kid and it was transformative.

But when Michael did the moonwalk on tv we watched it over and over again, enthralled.

Thriller's premier was awesome and although it got overplayed it ALWAYS rocked and too was AMAZING.

The moonwalk was AMAZING.

And if you missed woodstock due to youth (meaning you also missed Vietnam), MJ's evolution as an artist and the advent of MTV and Thriller were defining moments just as valid as woodtock.

Thriller and the moonwalk were shared moments and even though we were enthralled in or life cells glued to what Kerouac derisively called the hypnotic "big blue eye" (tv's glow), it was a shared moment like woodstock --- seen around the world (if not in person like me at woodstock).

Comparing these things is really not much use. Like comparing the slave trade, the holocaust, global imperialism, or the destruction of Native American's lives and culture. Everyone will say and now that these things were all seminal and significant and important in their own ways. Was one worse or better than the other. Could we argue about that forever? Sure.

But what remains is that thse events have their own significance to each of us and to history and their signficance to YOU or me will depend on how much personal impact they had.

I was affected forever by Woodstock and I would argue that the world was too. But I was also affected forever by Michael jackson (both for good and bad) just as I was by Woodstock and its cultural and historic significance.

I might argue that Woodstock was a more profound cultural and historical event then anything MJ did. But its arguable. It is of fading significance. As was jackson, really.

But why bother arguing about it.

We are the world could certainly be argued to have been even more important than woodstock. But I would also argue that We are the World would probably not have happened if Woodstock had not happened and had such an impact.

Teach your children well

we are the world

peace, love and music

and for all his flaws MJ did do lots of good in the world. And I think he made it for most folks a better place. just like woodstock did.

:applause:

(On edit: Anyone who thinks you don't need to spellcheck on a two word post is mistaken... :()

I mean, thanks.
My spelling sucks as do my reading eyes and my use of spellcheck too. My computer used to always freeze up when I checked, especially here.

I figure you guys will catch the drift...

But thanks anyway.

In case I was unclear, the spellcheck comment was referring to my own post - I originally misspelled "excellent" and corrected it on edit. I tend not to notice (and certainly not correct) other people's non-standard spelling or grammar, but I'm trying to develop spellchecker habits for myself, mainly to set an example for my students (the IM/texting generation). I just thought it was funny that I only typed two words, but didn't notice one was wrong until hitting post...

:hi:

they are all part of an amazing cultural and emotional heritage we have as human beings on this tiny blue planet.

Right now, speaking of blue planets, Regina Spektor was knocked out of the number 1 amazon and itunes sales slots today by folks buying Michael Jackson's music.

Her song "Blue Lips" is about this little blue planet seen from far far away (hence the album title "Far")

These great moments and experiences, especially the musical ones, bind us together hopefully with love.

No need for the hate and one-upmanship.

I say we should Save the energy to resist the haters not beat up our brothers and sisters here over which and whose cultural milestones are "best" or "worst"

Listen to Blue Lips and get back to me.

Or even "Folding Chair" (from "Far")

sit back and soak in some love

That is, ahem, what MJ would have wanted. Jimi Hendrix too!

Give blue lips a listen here from her interview this week on NPR (with links to listen to it all):

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=105518205

HIGHLY RECOMMENDED in these trying times.

...stinkin' up the place.

A single 4-day music festival?

Really?

My generation builds an impromptu city in the wilds, parties and rocks while producing massive streams of music and art, and (unlike woodstock) doesn't trash the place..... every frickin' year. It's called Burning Man.

Resting on one's laurels is tricky.

Yes, Thriller was no Woodstock, but that's a good thing, as Woodstock was kind of lame.

to a single song and short film by one artist? That is like comparing the Venice Film Festival to a violin solo. Is one better than the other? Is root beer better than a bicycle?

It only became mythic in retrospect.

:eyes:

(actually I agree with the OP, but hippies always need to hear that particular advice)

people 20+ years on.

I'd say that kicks Woodstock's ass.

:-)

on edit: corrected number of years since Live Aid

The importance of Woodstock was that it was the moment where rock became a big business. It was the turning point where big corporations realized there was a buck to be had in the youth culture industry. As a result the music industry throughout the 70s and 80s radically transformed into a big business run by lawyers and accountants and where clubs and ballrooms were replaced by giant stadium shows.

The music video was the logical conclusion of that process. Instead of having an event with a fixed geographic location you can have a brand-launching event that takes place globally via television. And that is the legacy that the boomers handed down to our generation. We weren't able to have a Woodstock type of event, free from corporate sponsorships and other cynical business moves. Instead we got carefully orchestrated marketing events.

In that there was no mud, we had indoor air-conditioning, we were bathed, EMTs weren't present on the scene, traffic was organized, and we played Galaga after it was over... yeah, there's no comparison. :wtf:

Good to know there's always someone willing to tell us how to rate our own youth experiences...

I was not talking about Michael Jackson's music in general or even the Thriller Album. I was talking about those (and I even heard some one say it today on one of the morning shows) who say that the premiere of the Thriller video on MTV was a generational experience like Woodstock.
But I love the wild, cross generational snarking my post has generated. Good times.

...so I can't compare directly, but I do remember that the premiere of "Thriller" on MTV was a huge, huge event in its day. An event I still remember fondly, which takes me back to that era with all of its intensity and trauma.

give it up already! You are no authority on what defines American Culture.

You can't touch that!

Woodstock has become mythologized culturally, but that's not to say that it was strictly a cultural thing.

Concerts existed prior to 1969, but Woodstock was the first really big concert, this made record companies interested.

What Thriller did was change TV, not just music videos. MTV existed prior to Thriller, but record companies considered videos minor wastes of money. Sure, they promoted the product, but it was just another form of advertising as far as they were concerned, so they were expenses that were tolerated for the most part and record companies spent just enough to finish the thing and little else.

Thriller was not just another type of advertising, it was an event--a mini movie with all the special effects and plot of big theatrical releases--but on TV. Before Thriller cable (and TV in general) were considered the relative cinema didn't talk about in polite company.

Certainly, neither Woodstock or Thriller could compare to adding sound to movies, but they both expanded an already existing phenomenon to change how people see the medium and how entertainment companies utilized them. Woodstock changed concerts; Thriller changed TV.

The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box_office_number-one_films_of_1982_(USA)">summer box office hits for 1982 were ET, the second Star Trek movie (Wrath of Khan) an Rocky III. On TV, Dallas was http://tvbythenumbers.com/2008/04/04/we-look-back-at-the-top-tv-shows-of-1982/3203">tops in the ratings; Hill Street Blues http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hill_street_blues#Production">debuted to very low ratings, but was picked up for a second season, becoming the lowest rated show ever to do so.

Then Thriller came out in November of 1982 (MTV began in August 1981). Conventional wisdom for the day was "don't spend money on TV"--it's only a springboard to getting into the movies--it's not a money-maker. Thriller changed that. When word of production costs began to leak, insiders believed this little video was some extravagant celebrity's indulgence and whispers of a music video version of Heaven's Gate were not uncommon.

Then came the public's reaction to it.

Thriller was the long-shot investment that paid off and paid off big. Naysayers were shocked that people would sit through 14 minutes to listen to one song, then turn around and request to see it again. The business end of things were sent scrambling to keep up with both the quality of the video and the expectation level that was now raised. But, the fear that cable TV would somehow keep people from going to the theater was unfounded. In the summer of 1983, Return of the Jedi made $30 million in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_1983_box_office_number-one_films_in_the_United_States">one weekend. But, it wasn't just the "franchises" that were making huge numbers, Beverly Hills Cop raked in over $50 million in the final four weeks of 1984, and a quirky little science fiction movie starring a former TV star dominated 12 of 13 weeks in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_1985_box_office_number-one_films_in_the_United_States">summer of 1985.

Before Thriller, U.S. music videos were actually made on videotape (the British had been making "videos" on film for years). U.S. record companies probably used video because it was cheaper and because there was an odd desire for some linguistic-equipment synergy ("it's called video, we should use video!"). With the box office numbers rising however, it was clear that movies weren't going to suffer even as cable became a competitor and finance people in the industry were now no longer reluctant to invest in videos and television.

Thriller did come after ratings winner Roots and box office phenomenon Star Wars, but more importantly, it came after Heaven's Gate. Hollywood was "check"-shy after Heaven's Gate's spectacular box office disaster and rightfully so. Thriller gave everyone in the industry the confidence to think big again.

I never quite got the big deal about "Thriller."

Yeah, I guess it was kind of catchy, and Michael sure could dance, but it always seemed over-hyped to me.

:eyes:

It was more like a series of events and moments. But yes the Thriller video was one of those moments.