In the Past Year, Prescription Drugs Have Killed Two Iconic Celebs. Marijuana Has Killed None.

Yet, marijuana is the illegal one. If I want to relax or calm down, I'd rather smoke a joint.

to pass rational laws.

I'd rather eat a green cookie

Fox News killed it in 1999.

My point is that legal prescription drugs are far more lethal than marijuana which would do the same thing as the drugs that Heath and Michael took.

IOW, if these two just smoked joint or ate a brownie, they'd probably still be alive today.

And, yes, I'm speculating, but I'm guessing that prescription drug combo killed Michael as well as Elvis and Anna Nicole Smith.

Again, legal prescription drugs are far more deadly than illegal marijuana.

Overdoses of opiates in any form have a bad habit of causing respiratory failure and arrest, the natural result of insufficient oxygenation of the heart is cardiac arrest. Of course marijuana has never been shown to be an appropriate medicine for severe pain.

David

How much more convincing do you really need?

If he was addicted to narcotics then they may have contributed to his death. Of course if he had a history of cardiac problems as has also been rumored then his death may be unrelated to narcotics.

David

Not everyone needs a slide rule to calculate 2 + 2 = 4. Just about everyone who was close to him has said he was taking a massive amount of drugs, and according to his family it was his "cardiologist" who was administering them. The abuse of drugs can also cause cardiac problems.

There's no "evidence" (as you seem to define the term) that Jim Morrison died because of drugs. No Medical Examiner was ever able to say conclusively that drugs caused the death of Elvis, even after toxicology tests were done. Are you going to say people are jumping to conclusions by saying drugs caused their deaths also?

There is no need to speculate we'll know soon enough. A good guess in this case is a lethal cardiac arrhythmia caused by hypoxia. The hypoxia would been the result of the respiratory arrest or respiratory failure from the opiate overdose. That has been the case in every opiate overdose that has resulted in cardiac arrest that I have worked. There have been many. That's all it is though a guess. If an autopsy wasn't performed and toxicology test aren't conclusive then the ME will have to rely on the other evidence and the statements of family, etc. Until then I don't believe anyone can say precisely what caused his death. Narcotics may have been the cause or they may have been a factor. It is also completely possible that Michael had an acute myocardial infarction and called his doctor who decided the chest pain wasn't cardiac in nature and decided to treat it with narcotics. It is possible that the infarcted tissue or the ischemic tissue around it caused the lethal arrhythmia. Of course that is pure speculation as well.

David

Someone made a perfectly reasonable speculation based on statements that are already out there for anyone to see, and you asked a silly question about "toxicology reports". So don't even try and pretend this is just about what you need to be convinced.

Hell even MJ himself predicted he was going to go down that way.

If you want to split hairs, there's no way you can say we will know soon enough. As I pointed out, there's still no precision as you demand in the case of Elvis. I suppose anyone could also bring up numerous examples of where MEs have been wrong, so nothing is absolute if you want to take it to the nth degree. Heath Ledger died because of drugs. So did Jim Morrison. So did Elvis. And so did MJ. Can anyone say this with a 100% degree of certainty? Nope, but there's a lot of things that fall into that category, yet people can still make reasonable assertions based on the available "evidence". Now if you want to go around and poke holes in all such situations and claim the absence of the absolute, be my guest. Just try not to get offended when someone else points out how asinine it is.

I'll address your points though.

Heath Ledger toxicology report released

NEW YORK -- Actor Heath Ledger died of an accidental overdose of prescription drugs that included painkillers, sleeping pills and anti-anxiety medication, the New York City medical examiner said Wednesday.

"Mr. Heath Ledger died as the result of acute intoxication by the combined effects of oxycodone, hydrocodone, diazepam, temazepam, alprazolam and doxylamine," medical examiner's spokeswoman Ellen Borakove said in a news release.

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/entertainment&id=5937208

That is certainly enough proof in the Heath Ledger case. Could they be 100% certain it was accidental and not a suicide? Of course not. Clearly the ME felt it was accidental and legally ruled that way.

In regards to Jim Morrison an autopsy was never performed so we couldn't with any degree of medical certainty make any claim. The circumstantial evidence clearly points to an overdose. He was 27 though with no known medical problems other than asthma so the chances of him having a heart attack would have been significantly less than that of a 50 year old. Although cocaine use can stimulate bronchospasm and trigger a severe asthma attack, cardiac arrest during untreated severe asthma attacks aren't unheard of. No one could be medically certain.

In regards to Elvis clearly heavy drug use was a factor in his death. His weight, extremely poor diet may have also been a factor.

According to Guralnick: "rug use was heavily implicated... no one ruled out the possibility of anaphylactic shock brought on by the codeine pills... to which he was known to have had a mild allergy." In two lab reports filed two months later, each indicated "a strong belief that the primary cause of death was polypharmacy," with one report "indicating the detection of fourteen drugs in Elvis' system, ten in significant quantity."<253>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elvis_Presley

So one could say with a medical certainty that prescription drugs contributed significantly to his death. Given the others factors though it would be impossible to rule out either anaphylactic shock (less likely) or a cardiac arrhythmia which happens much more than you would think during bowel movements. Given the propensity for opiates to cause constipation and his use of amphetamines and the testimony of his fiance, the cardiac arrhythmia isn't that unlikely a scenario. Again though the prescription drugs would have been a significantly contributing factor.


Given that an autopsy was performed and a toxicology screen was completed I would have to say that as in the case of Heath Ledger we will know with a medical certainty what caused the death of Michael Jackson.


David

He posed this question in post#17

His family, his ex-wife, and his doctor all say it was drugs that killed him

How much more convincing do you really need?

I responded with this in post #18

Evidence instead of speculation.

If he was addicted to narcotics then they may have contributed to his death. Of course if he had a history of cardiac problems as has also been rumored then his death may be unrelated to narcotics.

He responded with this in post #24

This isn't a courtroom

Not everyone needs a slide rule to calculate 2 + 2 = 4. Just about everyone who was close to him has said he was taking a massive amount of drugs, and according to his family it was his "cardiologist" who was administering them. The abuse of drugs can also cause cardiac problems.

There's no "evidence" (as you seem to define the term) that Jim Morrison died because of drugs. No Medical Examiner was ever able to say conclusively that drugs caused the death of Elvis, even after toxicology tests were done. Are you going to say people are jumping to conclusions by saying drugs caused their deaths also?

I responded with this in post#27

You asked me how much convincing I needed. I told you.

There is no need to speculate we'll know soon enough. A good guess in this case is a lethal cardiac arrhythmia caused by hypoxia. The hypoxia would been the result of the respiratory arrest or respiratory failure from the opiate overdose. That has been the case in every opiate overdose that has resulted in cardiac arrest that I have worked. There have been many. That's all it is though a guess. If an autopsy wasn't performed and toxicology test aren't conclusive then the ME will have to rely on the other evidence and the statements of family, etc. Until then I don't believe anyone can say precisely what caused his death. Narcotics may have been the cause or they may have been a factor. It is also completely possible that Michael had an acute myocardial infarction and called his doctor who decided the chest pain wasn't cardiac in nature and decided to treat it with narcotics. It is possible that the infarcted tissue or the ischemic tissue around it caused the lethal arrhythmia. Of course that is pure speculation as well.



I hope that cleared it up for you.

David

and say nothing.

typical ff

and say nothing. Typical firefighter.

Maybe they wouldn't get hooked on the harder, more lethal stuff. People smoke marijuana all of their lives and never migrate to harder drugs.

do you know what primo kind of stuff they'd be able to purchase?

The mind boggles....................

I believe the reserarcher is Mechulen, but I know that's the wrong spelling (since nothing came up on Google for that spelling.)

Here's another report on the benefits of using pot to reduce the need for (or improve the efficacy of) other meds:
-----

It is conventional wisdom that any substance use during drug treatment leads to lower rates of success. But a new study in the American Journal on Addictions suggests that’s not always so.

The study looked at patients in treatment for opiate dependence using a drug called naltrexone – a treatment whose effectiveness, the researchers write, “has been severely limited by poor adherence.” As part of a study designed to test two different support protocols intended to help patients stay on naltrexone treatment, researchers also looked at use of other substances by means of regular urine tests conducted during clinic visits.

Contrary to conventional wisdom, patients with “intermittent” marijuana use (defined as between 1% and 79% of urine tests coming back positive) stayed on treatment for nearly four times as long as those who abstained completely. Treatment adherence by “consistent” marijuana users (80% or more positive urine tests) was almost identical to that of the abstainers.

The researchers note that the beneficial effect was most apparent early in treatment, that marijuana use was not only associated with staying in treatment longer but also with more consistent pill-taking, and that during the study the patients tended to maintain or even increase their marijuana use. This, they write, is “consistent with a process of self-medication. These findings are of interest because they suggest the hypothesis that moderate cannabis use may be exerting a beneficial pharmacological effect improving the tolerability of naltrexone in the early weeks after induction.”

http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a911211653

... even my arrest last year (for possession) didn't make me stop. I am only now trying to stop. I've tried to take anti-depressants for my PTSD, but I can never find one that helps. Life without is miserable and depressing. The eight years with Dubya really worsened my condition! I was a bit relieved when America finally wised up!

and wish you peace.

...after both c-sections. The feeling was so warm and wonderful that I refused to take
any home with me. I recovered by taking a ton of Advil.

I was also given Vicodin after my back surgery. Bottled heaven. So...I refused to take
that home, and did the Advil-Tylenol push during that recovery.

These drugs are powerful beyond measure. They knock out the pain, but they also make you
feel so warm and fuzzy. Combine the pain cure, with the psychological and physicial addiction,
and I just knew I wouldn't be able to resist.

If someone needs to numb out and cover up psychological pain, taking these drugs almost ensures
an addiction and possibly death. It's very sad.

I am on steroids right now, for poison ivy---so I'm not totally drug free. :)

I can't take NSAIDs, so I have to take opiates. They don't work on me like that at all ... if I'm lucky, Vicodin makes the pain tolerable. And yes, I'm getting the real thing.

After a complete shoulder reconstruction I would take two 7.5/750 Vicodin and drive to work. The only thing I noticed was that I wasn't in excruciating pain. People at work couldn't believe I could take 2 and function normally. When the pain stopped I had nary the inclination or desire to take them anymore. Everyone is different.

David

I've had a standing prescription for hydrocodone for 4 years now. Am I an addict?

David

...and I felt like I was completely drunk. I couldn't even walk. It was so much
better than drunk, it was like someone poured liquid sunshine into my veins. I was
totally high!!

You're right. I guess each person is affected differently. I'm sure that's one key to
addiction. People who become addicted probably experience the more intense feelings
from it.

I get gastro-intestinal distress almost instantly, the nausea inflicted is far worse than any pain the meds are supposed to alleviate.

You couldn't pay me to take any of that stuff, just the idea of it makes me queasy.

I couldn't be an addict if I did it for a living.

Although I think I did experience waking up with pain when there seemed to be no reason for it. As if my body was trying to say 'give me another vicodin'.

They gave it to me when I broke my collarbone. Fortunately I had some Lortab left.

Marijuana makes me throw up. Half a joint and I have weird hallucinations, AND throw up. And it concentrates any pain I may have, and makes it worse for several hours. I can't use it.

I have panic attacks and have Valium for it.

I'm all for legalization, don't get me wrong. Just sayin', it's not necessarily a cure-all.

haven't written a decent song since I stopped either. But at least my short-term memory...wait, what were we talking about? But yeah, the 'drug war" and especially pot prohibition is insane at best, and evil when you consider the time and money wasted on it and the innocent ( except for their enjoyment of pot) people in jail for it... And it sucks big time that basically Democrats are just as guilty of furthering this insanity as repubs. In fact , here in NM, it was a right wing albeit libertarian repub Governor ( Gary Johnson) who was on a lonely crusade to legalize drugs, and the local Democratic establishment couldn't fall over themselves fast enough to denounce, and belittle his efforts. ( although we did finally pass a medicinal pot bill recently, and it was supported and signed by Bill Richardson). I guess after my opening sentence I was really responding to the OP more than you, but that's weird that all that stuff happens to you, but like I said, I had lesser but still weird stuff happen to me too.

Though I am also in full support of legalization. I've never heard of folks dying from marijuana but thousands of folks are murdered every year by freaking drunk drivers and god knows how many may die from drugs legally administered by doctors. Hell, more people probably die every year from household cleaners than have ever perished from marijuana use.

There is no logical reason that marijuana should be against the law. NONE.

deaths from prescription drugs - at least that is what Michael Baden says. Wonder why it is such a big secret,,, hmmmm.

from prescribed drugs is increasing at an alarming rate - according to Baden.
It is not being addressed as the serious problem that it is.

were from some bad heroin. The story would be all over the news and something would be done to stop it.
Maybe it is a question of semantics but media and the medical establishment seem to be keeping quiet when it comes to pharmaceuticals. They know the power they would be up against.

I recall the complete hysteria over John Belushi's death which heightened the drug war right after it.

The problem is that marijuana doesn't have a powerful lobbying group.

That may be the issue, people may focus on the abuse. I don't know, I've treated a lot of narcotics overdoses so I may be somewhat desensitized to the issue.

David

made was that the increase in deaths was occurring in people taking more than one prescription, sometimes from more than one doctor which is common now. Problems arise with the mixtures and side effects.

I smoked a bowl about a week ago and my nose and throat closed up within about 10 minutes.

I was really high, so I started flipping out. It was not a fun 3 hours.

But a vaporizer is the next step if the bong fails.

Not that it would work, but it might stop larger scale competition.

They haven't figured that out?

and make it look like a skinny cigar, or what they call a Cigarello, buy them single and not in a pack.

:kick:

and everyone start smoking grass.

:kick:

It is stupid.

Look at all the people alcohol kills. I don't know anyone who ever died a pot related death!

function daily.

There are some people that it works for, and others that it does now.

Point is, cannabis is naturally non-toxic.

in any case, smoking weed most certainly *can* (and has, and does) cause lung cancer and emphysema at the very least.

of course, in some states, weed *is* a prescription drug. and, therefore, completely unnatural and bad. particularly if you isolate the active compound, of course, but that's another issue entirely. if you use it in a state where the evil Medical Establishment/Big Pharma can't/won't prescribe it (thus preserving its "alternative" status) and/or if you burn it and inhale the active compound along with a bunch of carcinogens and irritants--then it's all natural and completely healthy and never hurts anyone. because it's magical like that.

would be like claiming you said 'everyone should take fistfuls of manufactured drugs without a second thought'. Who said anything like 'make everything but marijuana illegal'? No one. You brought hyperbole to the thread because you have no facts, and your points are nothing but propaganda. So you have to come at it from an intellectually dishonest reframing of the discussion. By lying about what the op said, to be blunt about it.
You need to show your links for the cancer and other claims because you are incorrect.

:kick:




http://www.cannabislink.ca/medical/

... and so don't achieve to the same levels as the users of more manic drugs, statistically speaking.

I mean, really crazy talk. And what statistics are you talking about? Have you taken a poll? If you count those who have smoked at some time as 'users' then at least the last 3 Presidents are in that number. Two admit to periods of free substance abuse.
I know many marijuana smokers who are wealthy, self made, award laden, top of their field types.