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NorthCarolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 08:38 AM
Original message
Kucinich votes against climate change bill
Congressman Dennis Kucinich (D-OH), who is widely known as an advocate for the environment and for clean energy, announced on Friday that he had voted against the climate change legislation passed earlier that day by the House of Representatives.

I oppose H.R. 2454, the American Clean Energy and Security Act of 2009, Kucinich stated in a press release. The reason is simple. It wont address the problem. In fact, it might make the problem worse.

It sets targets that are too weak, especially in the short term, and sets about meeting those targets through Enron-style accounting methods, he continued. It gives new life to one of the primary sources of the problem that should be on its way out coal by giving it record subsidies.

<snip>

Read entire article here: http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/06/26/dennis-kucinich-votes-against-climate-change-bill/
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natrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 08:44 AM
Response to Original message
1. that dude is the truth barometer
while obama and the rest of them suck from the corporate teet. So incredibly sad there arent more like him
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NorthCarolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Personally, I think it is incredibly sad
that the country felt this man had no chance of being elected to the Presidency. Imagine the possibilities that could have been.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Kucinich was who I supported
he's the only one who consistently tells the truth, and I admire him for that.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 03:56 AM
Response to Reply #3
120. I voted for Kucinich in the Primaries after he dropped out.
He has the right message, unfortunately it will take time for people to realize it.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #3
124. Me too. Kucinich was my candidate
for president. The corporate masters have decreed we can't have this man in the office of the presidency.
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sisters6 Donating Member (351 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. I smiled as you said--imagine the possibilities----but
then I realized it was a very sad smile.
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #2
15. it points directly to the immaturity of the nation.
we're apparently going to have to grow up the hard way.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
40. Where can I find out how Pete DeFozio voted?
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
52. Imagine The Possibilities???
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U4ikLefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #52
111. Sad, but I'm not surprised you made the "effort".
Shouldn't you be out shopping at WalMart?
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
94. Most of the nation never even got a chance to hear him. But somebody here had a great idea,
let's get George Clooney to run, he shares DK's values and isn't short.

Even someone as thick as OMC will listen to him.
:hi:

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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
101. Obama had the right attitude during the campaign in every way. However
Late the morning after election day, his complete demeanor changed. I think they showed him the JFK assassination film from the angle no one had ever seen before.
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #2
128. Imagine the possiblities? He would be the lamest of lame ducks
His "agenda" would go nowhere. He would veto almost everything that came across his desk, and the country would move nowhere.
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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #2
129. He could never have been elected, and he knew it.
He's not the type of person that America elects for its President. For a whole host of reasons.

Although he's right on this count, sort of (I don't think it will make things worse to have caps on carbon emissions), he is wrong and too radical on others, for me and most Americans.

It's a shame he's not consulted more on environmental matters, though. I wonder what committees he's on.
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crikkett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #1
14. spelling police: that would be a corporate teat.
;)
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #1
27. !

Unlike other candidates, I am not funded by those corporate interests.
I owe them no loyalty, and they have no influence over me or my policies.
---Dennis Kucinich

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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
4. Does he really think a better bill could get through Congress?
I know he's got experience in Congress, but I just can't see how voting with the Republicans on a very close vote would have helped get a stronger bill in its place. This seems like naive idealism - not what you'd expect from an experienced politician.
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NorthCarolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. I'm quite sure that the reason Kucinich voted against the bill
is VASTLY different from the motivation behind a lack of GOP support.
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izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Exactly what to expect
Voting against it for not being strong enough is entirely different from voting against it for it being too strong. Only the severely myopic cannot see the difference.
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Maybe he voted against it because it would hurt working people. nt
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. A no vote is a no vote when it's counted.
This is one of very few beefs I have with this man. He operates under the illusion that the media will bother to report why he voted the way he did. They don't, ever. And he is further kookified in the public eye, and among Dems who don't read DU, who just see some (D) next to all those (R)'s.
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man4allcats Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #9
23. The MSM is composed of idiots, and those who give them credence are likewise idiotic.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence." - Albert Einstein
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #23
28. Great Einstein quote, man4allcats. Thanks
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dana_b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #23
74. that's a good one!!
thanks
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SmileyRose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #9
30. In his case they usually DO report on why.
Even here in Republican Central (Georgia) the vote was reported as "so many" R's, "so many" D's and Dennis Kucinich......
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #9
31. And more subsidies to coal is more subsidies to coal when the money gets divved up.
If the corrupt private media calls you a kook, so what? If he voted for "coal and bullshit", he'd be just another con artist opportunist. The answer isn't to corrupt Kucinich, it's to educate the public.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #9
125. You have a strong point, Robb.
But at least he made a stand. He voted against a bill that was wrong or far from what was needed.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #6
49. It wont address the problem. In fact, it might make the problem worse.
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Did you listen to Boehner?
The crap that was loaded into that bill was amazing.

I want to see progress, but I don't think that the federal government should be dictating building codes, telling people what kind of appliances they can have in mobile homes, and taxing the shit out of poor people.

What this bill is , is a tax. It's a consumption tax. I have supported a consumption tax in the past, but this is an insidious consumption tax because it targets energy. Working people will pay the price heavily, because they are the ones who commute, they are the ones who pay their own utility bills, they are the ones who have the least flexibility and least recourse, they are the ones who spend the largest portion of their income on essential energy consumption.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. as a rule, don't believe a word Boehner says
without researching the facts. I'm not sure how much of this is correct, but anything coming from his lips, is not to be trusted.
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. He was reading from the bill in front of the House.
If he gave me change I would count it, but since Waxman's only complaint was the Boehner spoke too long, then I"ll assume he was actually reading from the bill.
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pjt7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #16
80. Boehner is a boob
but he read the bill & it's ridiculous.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #7
17. A tax on (fossil fuel) energy is *exactly* what the USA, and the developed world, needs
If that's what this bill would do, then that's excellent.

But Kucinich wasn't objecting to it because it's a consumption tax - quite the opposite. He says it's going to subsidise coal. Unless it will actually increase coal consumption compared to the present, though, I can't see that it's worse than doing nothing - which would have been the practical effect is his vote had helped stop the bill.
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. You keep saying that "doing nothing" is the default. That's simply not true.
All of the technologies being promoted by the anti-oilgascoalnukehydrowind people right now were developed long before yesterday. Some indeed looking forward to a day when fossil fuels would RUN OUT, others simply in the pursuit of science and the human dream of "getting something for nothing (or at least less of something)".

Not passing a bill loaded with crap is not "doing nothing". Passing a bill loaded with crap is not better than passing no bill at all.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #19
37. Let's see how people line up on the bill:
in favour:
Obama
Hillary Clinton
Gore
Pelosi
Waxman
The vast majority of House Democrats
8 Republicans

thinks it's too weak:
Kucinich

think it's bad for business:
all but 8 Republicans, and 44 Democrats in the House

I don't think it's 'loaded with crap'. Neither do those in favour. I agree with Kucinich that it'd be nice to target a lower emissions level. And I have heard of no alternative bill that anyone thinks might pass. So, yes, the alternative is indeed 'do nothing'. That's what would have happened if the Republicans defeated it. It's what happened from 2000-08.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. How about a table showing how much money these individuals received..
from the banks who stand to hugely benefit from the $2 trillion derivatives market this legislation creates?

Don't you think it's kind of interesting that Goldman Sachs, long one of the biggest critics of government intervention into markets, wrote much of this bill?
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. The bill decreases CO2 emissions, without taking into account offsets
see reply #39. There's no need to have been bribed to want that. You'd have to be bribed to not want that (ignoring the dumb Republican congressmen who don't think global warming exists - they vote the wrong way through personal stupidity).

Are you really suggesting the president, Secretary of State, ex Vice-president and Nobel Peace Prize winner, Speaker of the House, and over 200 Democrats, have all been bribed? And that the Republicans weren't, and are 'doing the right thing'? Please.
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. What I believe is that two factions are battling in this, and neither one of them is us. nt
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #41
57. I think the point is that it doesn't reduce emissions until it's too late.
The net effect is nothing. This bill is nothing but a fig leaf so they can campaign on being pro-environment while not endangering their campaign contributions from polluters.


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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #57
92. Too late for what?
Too late for what, precisely? If it's too late, then you obviously know of an impending event, so when is it? If it's too late then you obviously know of an impending event, so what is it?

What is going to happen and when is it going to happen?
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #92
93. 2030, 2030.
Edited on Sat Jun-27-09 08:05 PM by Greyhound
Capping current output for 21 more years. Capping current output for 21 more years.

And in case you missed it for the last few years, it's already happening. Remember "An Inconvenient Truth"? Global warming going to take decades to reverse even if we stopped emitting the offending gasses today and two more decades of hurtful emissions will make it that much worse.

This is a bad bill, a fig leaf so the capitulators can campaign on the environment while maintaining campaign contributions from the polluters.

ETA; Why are we typing this way?


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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #93
95. I don't know. I don't know.
Why are we typing what way? Is my font tucked into my pantyhose?

But seriously. Let's say that we continue at today's levels or even higher of fuel consumption. What precisely is going to happen in 2030? Is Vesuvius going to erupt? Is God going to slam a meteor into Egypt? Is Windows 13 going to actually recognize a new printer on the first try?
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #95
96. Well Windoze will never work correctly, everybody that had a hope in hell of
fixing that kludge that worked for M$ was laid off years ago.

What happens in 2030 is that is the first year the polluters have to begin polluting less than they are. By then it will make little difference for the carbon based lifeforms clinging to life on this particular rock.

Of course, the earth will be just fine. It will shake us off like the failed experiment that we are and get going on Life 4.0


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Dragonfli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #96
112. The worst threat to the environment is not what most people think it is...
Edited on Sun Jun-28-09 12:49 AM by Dragonfli
The largest single threat to the environment can be demonstrated in fact to be APATHY

I wrote a paper expressing that opinion almost 2o years ago.
At the time the models that they were using to try to teach people of the potential impending disaster(s) were alarming to say the least.

I was one of the few people I knew that payed attention to the science over the propaganda at the time and was ridiculed for what I wrote. Most people then still believed that climate change was a either a myth or a minor problem that could be deferred or ignored (many used to argue that the earth would heal itself). The scientific community knew better however and continued to try to teach the public.

Fast forward to the present. Only two things have changed, 1) I am proven correct in my assessment as is evidenced by the lack of action taken the past 20 years to reverse global warming and 2) The models that predicted the rate and effects of global warming were incorrect, it is happening faster than was predicted by those early models.

It is the apathy that will destroy our civilization, the poster you responded to is a prime example of that. We do not have until 2030 to convince people of the seriousness of the situation, by then it will be too late. It may even already be too late to reverse global warming by cutting emissions in half tomorrow morning, the scary little secret is that no one that specializes in the serious study of climate change knows for sure if it can even be reversed at this point. Yet people still live in denial, convincing themselves that there is still time to play politics or enrich themselves using the issue to funnel cash to special interests.

Kucinich understands the seriousness of the situation and is ridiculed much as I was 20 years ago.

It will not make me feel better in the least to say, "I told you so" when it gets so bad that people will finally realize the crazies were right and scream for a plan to save us from impending extinction.

In a discussion following my paper I tried to explain that it takes "shock" to override apathy and it will be only after the metaphorical thunder strikes that the population will awaken and movement can be expected on a scale equal to the task.

I even wrote a poem to express the concept.

Thunder

The shock begets the movement
The movement causes bruises
The Lightning seers
The rain sheds tears
Defiance often loses

Mortal men begin again
But thunder often chooses
There is no end
Survivors bend
To seek the light where truth is.



On that note my fellow Cassandrian, it's time to crash as I have to be up in about 4 hours to do some work I have scheduled.


:hi:
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #112
118. "It may even already be too late to reverse global warming", Just between you and I,
I think this may be the big secret that isn't being talked about.

Once the models got sophisticated enough and we got the computing power to create and run the scenarios, I think the scientists discovered that the cycle is already well underway and there's not one thing we can do about it.

If millions, perhaps billions, of us are already doomed, what's the point of telling us? It explains quite a few mysteries.

One thing's for sure, either way we will all find out.


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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #37
48. spin. "too weak" isn't why k voted no. try "ineffective, worse than nothing"
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #48
56. Then he would be wrong, if that was actually what he said
The EPA report is linked to in post #39. "Do nothing" means CO2 emissions increase to 7,500 Mt CO2e by 2025; with the bill they're expected to be 6,200 - the 1990 level.

However, his press release doesn't say 'ineffective, worse than nothing'.

"Passing a weak bill today gives us weak environmental policy tomorrow" is what he titled it, himself.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #56
116. here's the quote:
I oppose H.R. 2454, the American Clean Energy and Security Act of 2009, Kucinich stated in a press release. The reason is simple. It wont address the problem. In fact, it might make the problem worse.

It sets targets that are too weak, especially in the short term, and sets about meeting those targets through Enron-style accounting methods, he continued. It gives new life to one of the primary sources of the problem that should be on its way out coal by giving it record subsidies.



the bill sucks; it's going to do nothing but transfer money to preferred actors. but that's the point, isn't it?
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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. Sounds like it *will* increase coal consumption
http://www.ecofriendlymag.com/sustainable-transporation-and-alternative-fuel/surpising-conclusions-in-epas-analysis-of-waxman-markey-climate-bill/

EPA projects a continued and robust role for coal-fired electricity generation under Waxman-Markey, with overall electricity from coal-fired power plants actually higher than 2005 levels through at least 2025. Electricity generation from conventional coal-fired power plants (without carbon capture and sequestration) will be slightly higher in 2015 under the Waxman-Markey bill than in 2005 and will remain roughly constant through 2020, according to EPAs projections. By 2025, conventional coal-fired power plants will be just a few percentage points lower than 2005 levels. After including EPAs projections for new coal plants with carbon capture and storage (CCS) technology, electricity generation from coal actually increases between 2005 and 2025 under the Waxman-Markey bill .

The EPA also finds that the legislation would legally permit emissions in regulated sectors of the economy to remain above 2005 levels until sometime after 2025. This contrasts with the bills stated objective to reduce carbon emissions from major U.S. sources by 17% by 2020.

EPA projects the usage of international offsets average over 1 billion tCO2e each year under the ACES cap and trade program . Thats in addition to roughly 170-300 million tons of domestic offsets regulated firms are projected to purchase each year between 2012-2030, according to EPAs modeling . Excluding offsets, EPA concludes that actual emissions reductions in supposedly capped sectors of the U.S. economy will not fall below historic 2005 emissions levels until sometime after 2025 .

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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #21
39. But it decreases carbon dioxide emissions
It says: "Excluding offsets, EPA concludes that actual emissions reductions in supposedly capped sectors of the U.S. economy will not fall below historic 2005 emissions levels until sometime after 2025" and they link to p.11 of the EPA summary, and show the graph. I think that graph shows that in 2025, the emissions (excluding offsets - ie the level at the top of the shaded green portion) will fall below the 1990 level - the dotted line - not the 2005 level. And the business as usual level is about 7,500 Mt CO2e, rather than the 1990/2025 level of 6,200 Mt CO2e (the 2005 level was 7,000).

That site mentions that total coal electricity generation will be more in 2025 than it was in 2005, but does admit that the non-CCS amount is predicted to be lower - so that CO2 emissions will be lower. It doesn't mention the Business As Usual coal electricity generation amount for 2025 - 2,312 TWh non-CCS, and just 14 TWh CCS (cf 1,861 and 184 for the HR 2353 scenario). So, BAU (ie what would happen without any bill) would be a lot worse than with this bill.

The EPA report is here: http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/economics/pdfs/HR2454_Analysis.pdf

So this bill means a real benefit for the world.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #17
63. And what, pray tell, do people like ME do, who have no options?
WHY THE FUCK DO YOU LOVE REGRESSIVE TAXES????

Haven't you understood by now that regressive taxes don't change a damned thing?
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #63
68. to get people to use less fuel
It's not a question of whether they're regressive, it's a question of getting people to burn less fossil fuel. I want a more progressive income tax structure too.
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twitomy Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #68
73. Yeah, when the middle and lower income people
can no longer AFFORD to heat their homes, mission accomplished. Wow thats progress!
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #68
90. So, if you hurt poor folk, so what?? Is that "progressive"?
Have you bothered to READ any of the studies that show that taxing fuel doesn't have ANY consumption effect on those who use the most?

That is just hurts poor folk?

But that doesn't matter to you, right?

You just want our votes at election time, then screw us over.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 04:21 AM
Response to Reply #90
121. To the contrary:
From the Institute for Fiscal Studies, the leading independent analysts of economics in Britain:

A recent survey of the literature carried out by the Centre for Transport Studies at
University College London (Hanly, Dargay and Goodwin, 2002) suggests that a 10
per cent rise in the price of fuel reduces fuel consumption by around 2.5 per cent
and the volume of traffic by 1 per cent after a year. The traffic volume falls less than
the fuel consumption because of the incentives to switch to more fuel-efficient
vehicles. The authors estimate long-run effects of a 6 per cent fall in fuel
consumption and a 3 per cent fall in traffic volume, and that the effects on vehicle
ownership are small and uncertain. These estimates imply that had the real rates of
duty been maintained at their peak values since 1999, we might expect current fuel
consumption to be around 45 per cent lower (and as much as 912 per cent lower
in the long run).

http://eprints.ucl.ac.uk/14926/1/14926.pdf


The study also points out "Amongst OECD economies, Turkey and the Scandinavian nations take the largest shares of GDP in environmental taxes. The UK obtains a greater share of tax revenue and a greater share of GDP in environmental measures than the OECD averages. The US takes the smallest share of both total revenues and GDP in environmental taxes." And I'd point out that the US also pollutes the most among the OECD countries.

And for US studies:

One such study is Explaining the variation in elasticity estimates of gasoline demand in the United States: A meta-analysis by Molly Espey, published in Energy Journal. Espey examined 101 different studies and found that in the short-run (defined as 1 year or less), the average price-elasticity of demand for gasoline is -0.26. That is, a 10% hike in the price of gasoline lowers quantity demanded by 2.6%. In the long-run (defined as longer than 1 year), the price elasticity of demand is -0.58; a 10% hike in gasoline causes quantity demanded to decline by 5.8% in the long run.

Another terrific meta-analysis was conducted by Phil Goodwin, Joyce Dargay and Mark Hanly and given the title Review of Income and Price Elasticities in the Demand for Road Traffic. A PDF file of the study is available here. If you're interested in the subject, it's an absolute must-read. They summarize their findings on the price-elasticity of demand of gasoline as follows:

If the real price of fuel goes, and stays, up by 10%, the result is a dynamic process of adjustment such that:

a) The volume of traffic will go down by roundly 1% within about a year, building up to a reduction of about 3% in the longer run (about five years or so).

b) The volume of fuel consumed will go down by about 2.5% within a year, building up to a reduction of over 6% in the longer run.

http://economics.about.com/od/priceelasticityofdemand/a/gasoline_elast.htm


I want everyone to use less fuel. I'm not interested in 'getting your votes' - I'm British, and you can't vote for my favoured party. But I am interested in decreasing the carbon dioxide the world emits - 20% of which comes from the US. Everyone's CO2 emissions affect everybody.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #121
130. Yes, you're obviously NOT INTERESTED IN THE SUFfERING OF POOR FOLK!
Edited on Sun Jun-28-09 01:52 PM by bobbolink
I get that loud and clear!

Not ONCE have you responded to that.

Those studies are for BRITAIN, where you don't care about poverty, and obviously don't understand REGRESSIVE taxes.

The US is different.... Hummer drivers LAUGH at tax raises and drive MORE1

Rationing is MUCh more equitable, but then.... YOU would be affected, too, and I'm sure you wouldn't like that, would you?

Since you don't care about poor folk, and you disdain our votes, there't nothing more to say.

And typical bullies always waht the last word, so have at it.

Goodbye to you and your insensitivity!
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #7
32. I respectfully disagree regarding the building codes and appliances part of your complaint.
As a general contractor, I applaud the idea of a federal building code. If you saw some of the jack-leg building techniques that I have seen, many of which are downright dangerous, you might also. Of course, it would require that it be set up for regions or climate zones, which the current International Building Code is. (The IBC is not, in fact, international, but U.S. only--and only in certain states that have ratified it).

Especially now, with the issues related to climate change, nothing will happen on a large enough scale unless it's mandated. While the "green building" model is picking up adherents at a relatively fast pace, that is not enough. We need immediate changes in what we require for insulation, heating/cooling efficiency, water conservation, and almost all elements of home building and renovation. Our current methodology is built upon plentiful raw materials (meaning, not built upon recycled products), and no concern for impact on our environment. Add to that the profit equation and you have a massive blockage to change in the industry.

Something as seemingly minor as appliances can have a huge impact on energy consumption. Think of all the mobile homes in the U.S. Then consider what we could save if every appliance for them was required to meet or exceed Energy Star standards. Same for water heaters, HVAC systems, etc.

You are correct to a degree in saying that this is a consumption tax. Unfortunately, we will make no progress on modifying our negative effect on the climate unless we take drastic steps to change our way of building.

There is no easy way to change peoples' bad habits. Legislation and regulation at the federal level are two effective ways of making sweeping changes. It's sad that we can't make those changes without Big Power and Big Coal dictating the terms of the changes, but that is the world we currently live in.

What we really need is federally-subsidized upgrades to all existing homes in the U.S. Given in the form of grants this could be a critical driver for reviving our economy, reducing pollution, and saving energy. Simply improving the roof insulation, windows, and sealing air penetrations would result not only in less energy wasted, but lower power and gas/oil bills, and more comfortable homes using fewer natural resources. Add to that requirements for more efficient heating and cooling systems and you have taken a HUGE step to correcting our energy deficits. I'm not even mentioning solar, wind, geothermal, and most important, CONSERVATION, because they are another whole thread's worth of issues.

We can give trillions of dollars to multi-billionaires and -millionaires to protect their "businesses" but we can't give the average homeowner jack shit in the way of help. This was something that I thought our new President and Democratic congress might be able to change, but it appears that they are once again succumbing to "campaign donor fever", the addictive illness that affects our elected officials and is likely to be the terminal illness for our species.
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #32
47. What is the constitutional basis for a federal building code?
There is no easy way to change peoples' bad habits. Legislation and regulation at the federal level are two effective ways of making sweeping changes.

Is there no limit to the power and jurisdiction of the federal government? The federal government does not yet own the energy companies. It's not really any of the government's business how much energy I use. Clearly the government has shown no interest in regulating the oil companies or even charging the oil companies enough for access to oil on federal lands or mandating that oil companies with leases actually use those leases and increase domestic production.

There is an authoritarian streak to this that I find particularly disturbing.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #7
62. Thank you for understanding that! Except it's ALL poor people, not just "working" poor!
Could we please INCLUDE poor folk like me?

Can I please be included in this party?

PLEase?
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. Sorry. It was the political animal in me talking. Come and sit with me.
In political talk I usually speak of the poor as the working-poor or simply working people because it avoids the discussion of welfare queens and other demonizations of the poor. Generally, when I am arguing against something that is bad for poor people (working or nonworking) it's something the Republicans rather than the Democrats are championing. So to be arguing against a Dem bill that's going to hit you and me hard in the pocket, is a new experience for me.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #65
88. Thank you for understanding! Unfortunately, that TALK leads to ACTION, which leaves me out.
Example.... I've beeen homeless for quite a while now.

Locally, there is a clergy group working for low-income housing.

LEAVING ME OUT!

Why? Because it's only for "the working poor"!!! Those of us too old, too sick, too disabled to work.....left out in the cold.. Literally.

Yes, the words do make a diffeerence, and I LIVE it!

I appreciate you hearing me instead of blowing me off like most "progressives" do!
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
71. Why would I listen to a Republican?
Your post is typical Republican talking points - certainly not to be taken at face value!
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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
85. A very important point.

I have to read more about this whole thing. I have been so engrossed in health care that I have been remiss in other areas.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. Somebody has to be the standard-bearer
otherwise we'll have non-stop crap legislation for the years to come. He's trying to start something that few other congresspeople have the courage to follow - and it may be a bit quixotic - but without that, I fear Congress will completely lose their way. I just wish he had the charisma to bring others on board more effectively.

We really need to clean house in Congress, and to do that, we need at least some portion of the populace that's not easily willing to settle. Enough to make a viable voting bloc, at least. And I'm willing to be part of that bloc - seeing as it follows more closely to what I'd like to see. I suspect many others agree with him, but continue to sell him short.

But I have to admit, these close votes give me a heart attack when he votes on principle like this. But one thing I know, if more people listened to him (before the vote), we'd have a better quality government.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #10
18. The thing is, if something isn't passed before the Copenhagen conference
then it will be doomed - because China, and others, will look at the US, and say "even with a Democratic Congress and President, they still can't be bothered to do anything to solve this problem - why shouldn't we produce as much CO2 as an American, then?". And then the world gets more fucked for a few more years, waiting for this 'clean Congress' to get elected. And the science says we can't wait for years before starting to fix the problem.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #18
24.  Kyoto fixed that.
We have zero credibility on climate change. Other nations are leading the way.

Looks like that will be the case for some time, because as far as congress is concerned, their work is done.
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NYC Democrat Donating Member (234 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #18
76. not to mention we would be a fucking laughing stock/
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #10
26. Markey has been a leader on this issue since at least the 1990s
when he attended the Rio conference. This is not an issue that Kuchinich has led. There are also others, including Kerry and Boxer in the Senate who have credentials far beyond those of Kuchinich.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #4
20. Didn't Democrats win the last two elections and don't they control Congress
How many Democrats have to be elected in order to pass progressive legislation?

Perhaps 435 Democrats in the House and 100 Democrats in the Senate might be enough.

Well, we have to be realistic. That's probably not enough.
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sellitman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #4
22. "Naive Idealism" -Perfect description!
Forest through the trees.....
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
35. It is an extremely crappy bill.
Edited on Sat Jun-27-09 12:44 PM by truedelphi
The Powers that Be get to continue to polluting, and those of us too poor to afford a Prius will pay for the costs of that pollution because we "choose" to pollute with our older cars.

Et Cetera.

Sooner or later, people will wake up and realize it is a heck of a lot better to NOT PASS any bill, than to address a topic by putting together a totally backward piece of legislation, but one that has a snappy name.

This Administration would have been a lot better off simply getting behind the goal of not allowing a single transit service anywhere in the nation to be cut back. That would have been infinitely easier to accomplish, and dollar for dollar more productive.

Instead, the mountain piles of legislation supposedly being created to "Create green jobs" and to "Create energy efficiency systems" end up being filled with such catch 22 bureaucratic protocols that I don't know who will benefit - but the economic risk to the working or unemployed person increases every step of the way.

While the Corporate Polluters laugh all the way to the bank. Even as Californian cities lay off their transit workers and force the middle class back into their cars.




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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #35
42. Not passing a bill means even more CO2 emissions than now
Edited on Sat Jun-27-09 02:50 PM by muriel_volestrangler
It would be a global disaster. This is bigger than transit options. Far bigger. The US needs to cut the emissions from electricity generation, and heating. It's not about jobs either. It's about the US joining the world in cutting CO2 emissions.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. And we what - can't wait two or three weeks to put together a meaningful bill?
Edited on Sat Jun-27-09 02:55 PM by truedelphi
Or is it that if we don't just rush helter skelter into passing this laegislation - Big Corporate America may actually bear the brunt of the burden of changing to a greener mode of operating..

Cannot have that. Instead, let's rush this shit into law, and if the poor and middle class choke on it, so what. Big corporate America got theirs!

And who in Congress even cares if the damn environment ends up hurt? It is all about the Money Party providing their clients with what is best for them.
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Dragonfli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #45
97. Another option could have been to SUPPORT the amendments he offered, not bury them.
The argument you are responding to is a red herring, the bill could have been repaired somewhat if the party amended it to be an actual starting point rather than a waste of the limited time we have to reverse global warming.

Dennis offered 8 amendments (they were not allowed debate before the full house) to do just that.
Other "leaders" could have offered amendments of proposed solutions as well rather than follow the DLC script and the lobby dollars.


"I offered eight amendments and cosponsored two more that
collectively would have turned the bill into an acceptable starting point. All
amendments were not allowed to be offered to the full House. Three amendments
endeavored to minimize the damage that will be done by offsets, a method of
achieving greenhouse gas reductions that has already racked up a history of
failure to reduce emissions "" increasing emissions in some cases ""
while displacing people in developing countries who rely on the land for their
well being.

"Three other amendments would have made the federal government a
force for change by requiring all federal energy to eventually come from
renewable resources, by requiring the federal government to transition to
electric and plug-in hybrid cars, and by requiring the installation of solar
panels on government rooftops and parking lots. These provisions would
accelerate the transition to a green economy.


"Another amendment would have moved up the year by which
reductions of greenhouse gas emissions were required from 2030 to 2025. It
would have encouraged the efficient use of allowances and would have reduced
opportunities for speculation by reducing the emission value of an allowance by
a third each year.

"The last
amendment would have removed trash incineration from the definition of
renewable energy. Trash incineration is one of the primary sources of
environmental injustice in the country. It a primary source of compounds in
"I offered eight amendments and cosponsored two more that
collectively would have turned the bill into an acceptable starting point. All
amendments were not allowed to be offered to the full House. Three amendments
endeavored to minimize the damage that will be done by offsets, a method of
achieving greenhouse gas reductions that has already racked up a history of
failure to reduce emissions "" increasing emissions in some cases ""
while displacing people in developing countries who rely on the land for their
well being.

"Three other amendments would have made the federal government a
force for change by requiring all federal energy to eventually come from
renewable resources, by requiring the federal government to transition to
electric and plug-in hybrid cars, and by requiring the installation of solar
panels on government rooftops and parking lots. These provisions would
accelerate the transition to a green economy.


"Another amendment would have moved up the year by which
reductions of greenhouse gas emissions were required from 2030 to 2025. It
would have encouraged the efficient use of allowances and would have reduced
opportunities for speculation by reducing the emission value of an allowance by
a third each year.

"The last
amendment would have removed trash incineration from the definition of
renewable energy. Trash incineration is one of the primary sources of
environmental injustice in the country. It a primary source of compounds in
the air known to cause cancer, asthma, and other chronic diseases. These
facilities are disproportionately sited in communities of color and communities
of low income. Furthermore, incinerators emit more carbon dioxide per unit of
electricity produced than coal-fired power plants.

"Passing a weak bill today gives us weak environmental policy
tomorrow," said Kucinich.


The truth is if they spent more time offering effective solutions rather than seeking a bill to please moderates, Republicans and Clean Coal lobbyists then a bill could have been passed that would have garnered his support while more importantly doing something more substantial at a time when we need substance in the face of a global emergency.

The science is clear, the only argument left really is whether or not we have the time and ability to halt or reverse a climate trend that WILL destroy our civilization if not stopped.

The "Money Party" and all of the weak kneed or complicit politicians that wrote this nonsense do not appear to get the science or the fact that this is a critical emergency.

Makes you want to pull your hair out and bash your head into a wall doesn't it TD?
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. If Kucinich says that we won't even realize most of the benefits for
Edited on Sat Jun-27-09 03:01 PM by truedelphi
10 years, then I have to admit I am more firmly committed than ever to oppose this bill.

Like I said, we woul dbe far better off to just have the Administration see to it thatno local transit agency suffers any cutbacks. Fasr faster, cheaper and more effective.

Meanwhile, the Powers that Be can go back to drawing board and figure out soemthing far better than this Corporate piece of Doo.

Kucinich comments here:
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Kucinich--Passing-a-weak-by-Dennis-Kucinich-090626-786.html
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 04:39 AM
Response to Reply #46
122. What's wrong with realising benefits in 10 years?
A benefit is a benefit. If you're so impatient that you want everything now, you're not seeing the big picture. This is about fixing the mess for the whole planet, for a few centuries to come. An benefit at any time is worth having.
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #35
53. What provisions of the bill punish those who drive older cars?
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. I have heard that we will be required to scrap our cars
Within the next four or five years, unless they fal linto the realm of required emissions.

Cannot find anything that verifies that notion though.

here is one critique of the bill:
http://tinyurl.com/qylnd8
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #54
58. A provision like that would price about half the US population out of cars.
It's kind of hard to believe that the Republicans who opposed the bill weren't waving this in our faces if it truly existed. So until I see a report of this from a reliable source, I call bullshit.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. There was even talk here on DU - some provision inside the
Bill would offer $ 4,500 to anyone who wanted to replace their SUV with a more fuel efficient version.

That provision was initially targeting the poor and lower middle incomed, but like everything else these days in Washington, it ended up being a benefit for the rich.

So if you haven't heard the Repugs moaning and screaming about that end of things, it is because they are having money waved at them for their silence.
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #60
100. There's a difference between offering money for someone to trade in a junker
and making it mandatory for someone to take their junker off the road.

If Republicans were paid-off for their silence on mandatory removal of used cars, was Mr. Kucinich bribed as well?
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Indenturedebtor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #100
107. And in any case - taking cars of the road will always cause more pollution
The pollution required to build and ship a car to market is more than the car will ever use.
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11 Bravo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
64. He's not merely "experienced", he's principled; and that is the reason for his vote.
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datasuspect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #4
126. yep, he didn't act like a politician
he's more statesmanlike. plus he stood on principle. this country needs more men and women like that.
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bigwillq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
11. Good for Dennis.
:thumbsup:
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
25. Kucinich speaks for me!
I wish more democrats did!
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S_E_Fudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
29. Lets see...who has more credibility on climate change issues?
Edited on Sat Jun-27-09 11:31 AM by S_E_Fudd
Dennis "Perfect enemy of the Good" Kucinich?

or

Al "Nobel Prize Laureate" Gore...

You know...I think I'm gonna go with the latter...


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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. Gore has his own credibility problems in this area
Look at the Matt Taibbi article about Goldman Sachs that's being discussed on a couple of other threads:

http://sites.google.com/site/disclosuredelta/

The new carbon-credit market is a virtual repeat of the commodities-market casino that's been kind to Goldman, except it has one delicious new wrinkle: If the plan goes forward as expected, the rise in prices will be government-mandated. Goldman won't even have to rig the game. It will be rigged in advance. . . .

Goldman wants this bill. The plan is (1) to get in on the ground floor of paradigm-shifting legislation, (2) make sure that they're the profit-making slice of that paradigm and (3) make sure the slice is a big slice. Goldman started pushing hard for cap-and-trade long ago, but things really ramped up last year when the firm spent $3.5 million to lobby climate issues. (One of their lobbyists at the time was none other than Patterson, now Treasury chief of staff.) Back in 2005, when Hank Paulson was chief of Goldman, he personally helped author the bank's environmental policy, a document that contains some surprising elements for a firm that in all other areas has been consistently opposed to any sort of government regulation. Paulson's report argued that "voluntary action alone cannot solve the climate-change problem." A few years later, the bank's carbon chief, Ken Newcombe, insisted that cap-and-trade alone won't be enough to fix the climate problem and called for further public investments in research and development. Which is convenient, considering that Goldman made early investments in wind power (it bought a subsidiary called Horizon Wind Energy), renewable diesel (it is an investor in a firm called Changing World Technologies) and solar power (it partnered with BP Solar), exactly the kind of deals that will prosper if the government forces energy producers to use cleaner energy. As Paulson said at the time, "We're not making those investments to lose money."

The bank owns a 10 percent stake in the Chicago Climate Exchange, where the carbon credits will be traded. Moreover, Goldman owns a minority stake in Blue Source LLC, a Utah-based firm that sells carbon credits of the type that will be in great demand if the bill passes. Nobel Prize winner Al Gore, who is intimately involved with the planning of cap-and-trade, started up a company called Generation Investment Management with three former bigwigs from Goldman Sachs Asset Management, David Blood, Mark Ferguson and Peter Hanis. Their business? Investing in carbon offsets, There's also a $500 million Green Growth Fund set up by a Goldmanite to invest in green-tech ... the list goes on and on. Goldman is ahead of the headlines again, just waiting for someone to make it rain in the right spot.

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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #36
55. As Preesident of the Senate back in '93, Gore killed a bill that would have basically
Stopped the Pesiticde companies from introducing new chemicals into the environment until it could be proven that the chems posed no risk (Preventative principle)

I have always been dubious of him, ever since.

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #55
115. join the crowd. i've been dubious of him since he started talking about the
social security "lockbox" & increasingly dubious as i noticed his wall street connections, including his daughter's marriage to a Schiff scion of the house of Kuhn, Loeb....

his global warming schtick is all about cap & trade for the financiers. if he gave a damn about energy use, he wouldn't be running a house (or two, or three) with 100 times the use of ordinary people.

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #29
50. No, you mean Al "dollars to Wall Street" Gore.
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pjt7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #50
81. No, you mean Al "dollars to Wall Street" Gore.
b-i-n-g-o
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #29
59. Considering that when actually had a vote he didn't use to help anybody but the corporations.
Citizen Gore has been far better than politician Gore ever was.


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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #59
114. because he wrote a book/made a film about climate change? have
you noticed all his preferred remedies involve funneling money to wall streeters?
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #114
117. Well, he has always been of the parasite class, he was born into it.
I know that's heresy, but what is, is.


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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #29
67. You've got that wrong:
It's not "perfect enemy of the good."

It's "good is the enemy of the lesser evil."
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PSzymeczek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #29
84. I think we're going to have to put up with some
incrementalism here. Nudge the center leftward.
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quidam56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
33. Appalachia can't stand anymore mountaintop removal,
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RufusTFirefly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #33
61. Exactly! That's an INCREDIBLY important point to bring up.
Not only is the oxymoronic "Clean Coal" an incredibly dubious proposition, but even if it works, it's going to require mining even more coal to produce the same amount of energy. That coal isn't simply going to materialize at coal plants by magic.

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PSzymeczek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #61
89. Burning the Future
is a great movie on the subject.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
34. America is the Saudi Arabia of coal, that is an economic and political reality
Despite what Kucinich may seem to think, this isn't a problem of Democrats not having a spine. This is about the fact that too much of our economy and peoples' livelihoods are vested around coal. If we had no coal there would be no problem. Unfortunately we have tons of the stuff.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
44. Good for Dennis--he must have actually read the bill
Cap and Trade is one of the biggest greenwashing hoaxes to come along in years.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
51. Typical Of The Kook.
All he has is his teensy weensy base. Lord knows he has to keep throwing them these beyond obvious bones, lest he lose them...
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RufusTFirefly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #51
66. Kook? Bitterly ironic
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
69. I'm on the fence about this one. The bill was not good enough...
yet Gore was there helping it along....which blows my mind and makes me so damn sad.

I can't help but feel that once again we the peons have been thrown just enough crumbs to keep us quiet.


I highly respect Gore & Kucinich, but I fucking HATE seeing either of them acquiesce or play politics. :argh:

My gut feeling is that we are REALLY REALLY FUCKED and so is our dear Mother Earth. :cry:
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NYC Democrat Donating Member (234 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #69
79. your right the bill is lackluster but it is the best we can get and still better then nothing
Which is why Gore was there pushing for it.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
70. Yeah, I heard he wasn't the only Dem who was going to vote against it
for not being strong enough.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
72. I remember when Kucinich voted against SCHIP, and then
six months later voted for the same bill.

Wrong side of history. The bill will only get stronger, and the all or nothing crowd will simply jump on board.

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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #72
87. Moonbeam McCrazypants voted against SCHIP?
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Dragonfli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #87
99. Goosestepper Vacuumhead has a brilliant thought to add to the discussion?
Oh yes he must, an insult was blurted out like a stunted fart!

Thank you for your insightful contribution, where would we be without your thoughtful examination of the issues?

:eyes:
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #72
110. First of all Bush had already threatened to veto the SCHIP bill...
then when language was removed from the bill which would cover legal immigrant children and pregnant women, Kucinich voted NO.

Many had been waiting since 1996, see links below, Congress finally included (2009) those who had been excluded.

Kucinich was on the right side of history, it just others awhile to catch up.

:)


http://kucinich.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=75275

"...Kucinich voted for the original House-passed version of the bill because it contained language to grant health coverage for legal immigrant children. However, in todays bill, this language was omitted..."


When Bush vetoed the bill as promised, Kucinich then voted to override the veto.

http://kucinich.us/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=797

"I voted to override the Presidents veto. In the previous SCHIP vote, the Democrats left out up to 600,000
children of immigrants, so I voted against the bill. The President left out all children, so of course I voted to
override Kucinich said.


The bills failure to provide coverage for legal immigrants is wrong. All children deserve health care
coverage. Health care is a right, not a privilege. The denial of a life-saving service based on an arbitrary length of
citizenship is simply wrong.

It is the responsibility of Congress to address the main difficulties that prevent legal immigrant children from
gaining access to health care. This bill does exactly the opposite, which is why I voted against the bill after the Senate
negotiators refused to provide health benefits to legal immigrant children. Negotiating away health care for 400,000-
600,000 children as a political compromise is not acceptable..."



http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=143

April 20, 2007

"A key health policy success of the past decade is the substantial reduction in the number of uninsured children, primarily due to improvements in Medicaid and the creation of the State Childrens Health Insurance Program (SCHIP).<1> However, while there are fewer uninsured citizen children, the percentage of low-income immigrant children who lack health coverage has climbed since 1996, when federal legislation restricted the eligibility of legal immigrants for Medicaid and SCHIP during their first five years in the United States (Figure 1). The disparities in health insurance coverage between citizen and immigrant children, already large a decade ago, have grown significantly larger. Today, almost half of low-income immigrant children are uninsured.


...Opportunities to Restore Equity to Legal Immigrant Children and Pregnant Women

The pending SCHIP reauthorization creates an opportunity to improve health coverage for legal immigrant children and pregnant women. Bipartisan legislation that would restore states option to provide Medicaid and SCHIP coverage to legal immigrant children and pregnant women during their first five years in the country has been introduced in the House by Representatives Lincoln Diaz-Balart (R-FL) and Henry Waxman (D-CA) (H.R. 1308) and in the Senate by Senators Hillary Clinton (D-NY) and Olympia Snowe (R-ME) (S. 764). This measure also is included in other childrens health bills introduced in Congress,<5> and Senators Jay Rockefeller (D-WV) and Olympia Snowe (R-ME) have indicated that their forthcoming SCHIP reauthorization legislation will include the provision."


http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/immigration/2007/09/nilc-urges-comm.html

"...The Democratic leadership now asks us to support the compromise bill while acknowledging the injustice of failing, once again, to cover immigrant children and pregnant women - immigrants from working families who pay taxes and "play by the rules." They promise to address immigrant children's health in some unspecified, future legislation rather than in the modest children's health bill now before them. This is an audacious request given that the promise echoes several made before and not kept. It is not the first time that ICHIA has been stripped out of legislation behind closed doors after winning heated committee and floor debates.<3>


...<3> Most recently, immigrants were told to wait until the 2007 SCHIP reauthorization for the passage of ICHIA after it was stripped from the Medicare Modernization Act of 2003 during the last hours of conference negotiations. Prior to that, despite winning heated committee and floor debates, ICHIA was cut from a 2000 Medicare provider bill as well as a 2002 Temporary Assistance to Needy Families (TANF) reauthorization bill. In fact, Democratic leadership has long vowed to redress the damage to which they contributed in 1996 by placing the arbitrary restrictions on legal immigrants."



http://thehill.com/business--lobby/baucus-introduces-schip-bill-as-house-readies-vote-2009-01-13.html

01/13/09

"...Congressional action on the popular SCHIP measure, which passed Congress with bipartisan votes twice in 2007 but died under President Bushs veto pen, would give the incoming Obama administration a quick victory on healthcare, one of its major priorities.


...As in the 2007 measures, the increased spending on SCHIP would be fully offset by a 61-cent increase in the federal tax on cigarettes along with tax increases on other tobacco products.

By emphasizing the similarities between his new bill and the legislation that passed two years ago, Baucus seeks to set the stage for a noncontroversial, bipartisan process.

In his statement, though, Baucus implicitly acknowledged one contentious issue he did not include in his draft bill: benefits for legal immigrants..."


The bill then passes and included those who had been excluded since 1996.


http://www.votesmart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?cs_id=23246&can_id=318

Kucinich votes YES and the bill...

"-Expands coverage to children of legal immigrants and pregnant legal immigrants (Sec. 211)."




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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
75. If Kucinich were president, we would be well on our way to a bright new day.
He would make changes that count.
If it is wrong for Bush..it is wrong for Obama.
I think Obama has sold us out. Thank God Dennis stil has our backs.
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NYC Democrat Donating Member (234 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. no we would be bitching about how congress refuses to back any of his plans.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #77
86. Yep.
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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #77
106. Hmmmm, ....good point :P
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pjt7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
78. This bill is b.s.
let's hope the Senate submarines it.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #78
82. A lot of people
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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
83. Dennis has one thing that very few politicians hold - my TRUST

Dennis has CONSISTENTLY and PASSIONATELY stood up for the right thing.

I will read more about the bill, however, if Dennis is waving a red flag, I think we would be wise to heed his words. Especially since Obama has proven himself to be such a corporate stooge. I don't trust Obama. I do trust Dennis.

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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
91. For everyone who is opposed to a cap and trade program
Has the acid rain emissions trading not been a success?

Why shouldn't we see how a carbon trading market does before saying it won't work? :shrug:
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #91
98. Because that robs them of an opportunity to be outraged.
Such outrage isn't about being informed or adding to the debate, it's simply about repeating the tried and true talking points (that push the pessimists buttons. Damn the facts.

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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
102. I thought of him immediately when the vote came down...
I am so proud of him. This 'cap and trade' is total bullshit...next thing you know, Goldman Sachs will have a derivative market based on 'cap and trade.' That's all our country does now....invents new ways to play with green paper that is losing its value. We're also good at creating death and destruction, and producing films that degrade over half the population. This is what our economy is based on....Green paper, death, dehumanization.

Hey America!!!!
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madville Donating Member (743 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
103. waiting to see how the senate goes
By then maybe someone will have had a chance to actually read the 1500 pages in this bill and find all the cracks in it. You damn sure know none of the people who voted for or against it yesterday have even read the thing, their all just doing what their told except for Dennis. The republicans are in on it also, they are just playing their role in the show.
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Beacool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
104. I like Kucinich.
I may not agree with all his views, but he always tells it as he sees it and can read bullshit a mile away.

Wait until the Senate gets their hands on this bill, it will be further watered down. I bet the same will happen with the health care bill.

:-)
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thread-bear Donating Member (58 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
105. web-sites
Does anyone have any links to websites that provide real proven scientific information in a way a normal person can understand that shows how cap and trade will avert the world disaster that will happen if we don't pass it? It sounds to me like a complete scam that will make the rich richer and impoverish the poor. They may get rebates,but the cost of everything goes up. I'm not talking about propaganda sites or movies. I see a lot of people saying everybody agrees with this or that,but they never provide anything but anecdotal evidence. If you want this legislation,most Americans are going to have to realize it's necessary or they will get rid of it and those politicians that pushed it. Simply saying that a majority of scientists accept it or everyone that doesn't is dumb isn't enough. I'm not dumb,I don't want to destroy the planet,but I'm not gullible,either. I hope that a massive amount of money is dedicated to finding new,non-polluting forms of energy. Any websites?
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northernlights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #105
119. I doubt it
because I agree with Kucinich and Tabbibi. Cap and trade is just a scam to make Goldman Sachs richer. And like all their bubbles, it will end in disaster. Not just for the working person or the poor this time. For everybody. Because this time the stakes are not just money and planet earth really doesn't give a flying fuck how much money they make.

I've never seen an explanation of how this will actually reduce carbon emissions, because it won't except maybe by happenstance. It's just an accounting scheme by the wealthy elite to try to marry what's necessary with making money.

I was very disappointed in Gore when he proposed cap and trade. He may be sincere when he talks about global climate change, but he (and the rest of them) just can't get their blinders off when it comes to $$. Every "solution" has to be a way for them to get richer, and so is doomed to fail in its original goal. Making money takes over everything.
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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
108. Rep. Kucinich is a real national treasure.
Who else do we know who consistently tells the truth like Dennis does? He tells it like is and lets the chips fall where they may.
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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
109. I would think politics with anyone else
But I know Kucinich had a good reason. He speaks the honest truth always. I appreciate and respect that even though I don't always agree with him.
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pam4water Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 12:50 AM
Response to Original message
113. Well Kucinich usually knows what he is talkgin about. I've never been a fan of Cap and Trade.
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pjt7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 06:45 AM
Response to Reply #113
123. This is a Must Read
Well, you might say, who cares? If cap-and-trade succeeds, won't we all be saved from the catastrophe of global warming?Maybe - but cap-and-trade, as envisioned by Goldman, is really just a carbon tax structured so that private interests collect the revenues. Instead of simply imposing a fixed government levy on carbon pollution and forcing unclean energy producers to pay for the mess they make, cap-and-trade will allow a small tribe of greedy-as-hell Wall Street swine to turn yet another commodities market into a private tax-collection scheme. This is worse than the bailout: It allows the bank to seize taxpayer money before it's even collected.

"If it's going to be a tax, I would prefer that Washington set the tax and collect it," says Michael Masters, the hedgefund director who' spoke out against oil-futures speculation. "But we're saying that Wall Street can set the tax, and Wall Street can collect the tax. That's the last thing in the world I want, It's just asinine."
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griloco Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
127. the unfortunate truth about kucinich
is that he can't convince 218 congresspeoples
and 60 senators to go along with him.
no matter how straightforward he may be,
he would be an ineffective president.
it is also possible he voted against this bill
because his vote wasn't needed.
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