Hey, Hey, My, My

Hey hey, my my
Rock and roll can never die
There's more to the picture
Than meets the eye.
Hey hey, my my.

Out of the blue and into the black
You pay for this, but they give you that
And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black.

The king is gone but he's not forgotten
Is this the story of johnny rotten?
It's better to burn out 'cause rust never sleeps
The king is gone but he's not forgotten.

Hey hey, my my
Rock and roll can never die
There's more to the picture
Than meets the eye.
--Neil Young

Wealth and fame are curious things. Teenagers tend to be convinced that they would like nothing more than the lifestyle these often interconnected statuses bring about. In many cases, they wish for success as a musician, being convinced that the rewards would bring about a life of pleasure.

This past week, events surrounding the death of Michael Jackson have resurrected memories of past events, where some of the most successful musicians have died tragic and lonely deaths. Names such as Elvis, Jimi, Janis, and Jim come to mind. At this point, the "final results" of toxicology reports on Jackson are not in, and so I do not want to speculate on his death – even though I recognize that some of the things I’ve heard on tv or read are somewhat informed speculation. More, I do not know enough about Michael to offer anything close to an informed opinion about his life. Instead, I thought it might be interesting to look at some of the things that I know about Jimi, Janis, and Jim.

I suppose that trying to explain the 1960s and early ‘70s to someone who wasn’t there is like trying to explain colors to a blind person, or sex to a person who has never experienced it. By coincidence, there were lots of colors and sex in that era. There was also a lot of tension in this country, involving civil rights, women’s lib, the war, assassinations, and the over-all uptight, rigid restrictions that society imposed on human beings.

Out of all of it came some of the most powerful and beautiful music that human beings have ever created. There were numerous contributing factors, of course, ranging from the black music that white parents and politicians recognized as dangerous, to some lads from England who appeared to be four happy mop-tops. But at some point, the gears shifted, and I would recommend the book "HIPPIE," by Barry Miles, as a good driver’s manual from those days.

Three of the most talented musicians from that time were Jimi, Janis, and Jim. And when they all died within a short span, it was difficult for me to really grasp why that had happened. Years later, I learned that off stage, Jimi was really a shy person – something that one wouldn’t realize watching him on stage – and a sensitive soul who battled the pain he felt with massive amounts of drugs. He lost that battle.

When I read that Janis responded to the news of Jimi’s death by saying, "Son of a bitch, he beat me to it," I thought, "Wow. That Janis!" Years later, I would think more about her saying that when she was on stage, everyone loved her; but when she went home, she was alone. I watched some film of her at Monterey on tv last week. It sounds different, in 2009. The person on stage is happy, of course, but it is easier now to recognize that the passion and pain in her music wasn’t an act.

Morrison, like Hendrix, worked for "success," but then found that his fame was a strait jacket. People wanted the freak show. They demanded it, and were not interested in Jim or Jimi’s other talents. After Jimi and Janis’s deaths, Jim attempted to deal with the pressures by geographic solution. It didn’t work.

At the time, I lacked the ability to view it in a more meaningful way than, "Wow, that sucks." It was somewhat like learning that someone from your community was killed in a DWI accident, and thinking, "poor guy," but not seeing that it relates to your own drinking and driving. Certainly, celebrities drive nicer cars on bigger, faster cars, but we are all on that same highway of life.



Playboy: John, what’s your opinion of the newer waves?
Lennon: I love all this punky stuff. It’s pure. I’m not, however, crazy about the people who destroy themselves.
Playboy: You disagree with Neil Young’s lyric in Rust Never Sleeps – "It’s better to burn out than to fade away….."
Lennon: I hate it. It’s better to fade away like an old soldier than to burn out. I don’t appreciate worship of dead Sid Vicious or of dead James Dean or of dead John Wayne. It’s the same thing. Making Sid Vicious a hero, Jim Morrison – it’s garbage to me. I worship the people who survive. Gloria Swanson, Greta Garbo. They’re saying John Wayne conquered cancer – he whipped it like a man. You know, I’m sorry he died and all that – I’m sorry for his family – but he didn’t whip cancer. It whipped him. I don’t want Sean worshipping John Wayne or Sid Vicious. What do they teach you? Nothing. Death. Sid Vicious died for what? So that we might rock? I mean, it’s garbage, you know. If Neil Young admires that sentiment so much, why doesn’t he do it? Because he sure as hell faded away and came back many times, like all of us. No, thank you. I’ll take the living and the healthy."
--October, 1980

I’ve always liked the Beatles’ music the best, and enjoyed John’s more than the other three. (I also like Neil Young, and note that John frequently spoke respectfully of his outstanding talents.) Before Jimi, Janis, and Jim, Lennon had been a young man seeking fame and fortune through music. He certainly reached his goal. Then he, too, recognized that he was in that "plastic cage," and he sought a divorce from the Beatles. The fans and reporters wanted the group to reconcile, and continued to focus on "when are you going to get back together?"

From 1975 to 1980, legend has it that John went underground. As he noted, he didn’t: he simply stopped recording music for public consumption, stopped going out to clubs, and quit talking to reporters. He said that he wasn’t interesting in singing "She Loves You" in Vegas when he was 50.

He did make the brief come back in 1980, of course, and was killed as a result. It may have been due to a deranged fan, or something larger, I suppose. But even if it was simply the act of a deranged fan, I can’t help but think that this is still part of something larger. In the movie "Imagine" that Yoko put out, there is the strange scene where a fan who has been camping out in Lennon’s garden comes to his house early one morning. The fellow actually believes that the lyrics in one of John’s songs were directed at him. In a way, that is but an extreme example of how many people are confused, and believe there is a stronger connection between their lives and what they interpret the lives of their "hero" to be.

Finally, although I never bought any of his albums, I remember that in the last interview that Howard Hughes gave – over the phone, of course – a reporter’s final question was, "Are you happy?" After a pause, Hughes answered, "No." Again, I do not know much about Michael Jackson. I’ve learned more about his life since his death, than I knew while he was alive. But I have the impression that he, too was trapped in a plastic cage, that he was lonely, didn’t really know how to divorce his past, self-medicated to treat the pain, and that like Hughes, he was not happy.

celeb fixation is so detrimental to them and to the people who get sucked into it. They're just people.

K&R

It's not hard to see how people who lack that connection in their families or elsewhere in their lives can get confused. Their ability to touch us makes them both successful and targets.

In a way these artists reflect us too. Only they're more like archetypes. The reason they resonate with us is because of that. Great art mirrors us back to ourselves. Otherwise it would be alien to us and incomprehensible.

Thank you for writing such a well thought out post. It captures what the reality of fame is.

Thanks for sharing it with us - I read it slowly and enjoyed the perspective.

Edit: let me expand on this comment you made: "...that is but an extreme example of how many people are confused, and believe there is a stronger connection between their lives and what they interpret the lives of their "hero" to be."

I agree that many unhappy people create an unhealthy "stronger" connection between their lives and the misinterpreted lives of their heroes. On the other hand, I think there is a very healthy connection that many people share with the music of their "musical heroes" that shouldn't be overlooked. I just thought I'd mention that as I get very emotional listening to my favorite music and am extremely grateful that some artists are able to interpret life into music so masterfully (including classical music of course).

We love and know that it is only temporary, it will eventually be taken from us.

The future's uncertain and the end is always near.

Nice post, I enjoyed reading it, thanks.

Is of course true for all of us.
But I am no fan of anyone really...altough there are artist that I hold in high regard and Niel Young is one of them and only eclipsed by John Lennon....but not entirely for there musicale talent but for being human and caring about humanity.
And so feeling that way I cannot understand how one could worship, in the way a Fan worships, some diva that treats people as objects and cares little for others.

And another one by Niel Young...

Ive seen the needle and the damage done.
A little part of us in everyone.
Every junkie is like a setting sun.

There is a little junkie in all of us. We all have the need to feed the inner need. And because of that we are capable of making greater and lesser mistakes in life.
But that is how we learn and grow.
But the differences you point to in Lennon and Young are interesting because I believe that they are both right...Is that possible?

I was just going to post about Needle and the Damage Done :hi:

Sid

It is rare when I can say that.

in the late afternoon, I went to the store. I was picking up a few things for when a friend stopped over to watch boxing last night. By chance, I ran into an old friend from high school, someone I very rarely have seen since. We spoke out in the parking lot for a while, including comparing notes on what old friends we each knew were up to. And we ended up putting some events into the context of this song.

I suppose that is an example of why we can relate to the poetry of a Young or a Lennon. Though we don't have a relationship with the people they wrote to/of, the same lyrics express what we feel, and wish we could say. So we have that relationship.

And I think both of them were right, far more often than not.

And that makes me think that there is more to inspiration than just a product of the mind.

I think in all the cases you cited, the individuals started out seeking what they needed, or thought they needed, by looking for outward acclaim. That Jimi, Janis, Jim, and now Michael were never able to look within for that which truly nourishes I think is the tragedy of their lives. John, however, was of a different sort. Yes, he went through his dark nights of the soul, as we all do--but there was a quality about him that suggests he did find some of the peace and success that can be found only through the inner life. That was one reason he didn't feel the need to record, to tour, I think. He was seeing the whole relationship of star to society differently. His comeback happened only when he felt he had something else to contribute to the world--done simply for the joy of creation, not for wealth or fame.

my two cents is that it's telling that this happened while he was prepping a "come-back" tour. i can only imagine the angst that a 50-year old might feel trying to reclaim the perfection and dubious glory of a childhood career. imaging that, i take all the self-doubt and self-loathing and internal criticism i've ever given myself in my paltry little endeavors, and multiply that by a gajillion, and throw in a multitude of sycophants eager to give me whatever I think i need. shit. he never had a chance.

Most of us are on our feet begging for that second chance. He was given that chance....LUCKY HIM...If he chose to listen to sycophants that is his problem...if they lead him astray....Sorry MIKE you should have been calling the shots.

He has had more than a chance....he had EVERYTHING and he fucking blew it. HE FUCKING BLEW IT.

Micheal was never allowed to have a childhood. It's pretty obvious that he spent his adult life trying to finally have that childhood he was denied. I don't know if his relationship with children was "innocent" or not, but either way I firmly believe it was because of the childhood he never had.

And you never get a second chance to have a childhood. All the money in the world can't buy that.

His asshole father derailed things but MJ wasn't denied his childhood. LOTS of people have shitty parents, lots of them do not grow up to be disturbed adults. MJ was a disturbed adult and he did disturbing things.

His money and notoriety gave him the second chance to be a more than decent human being...HE CHOSE NOT TO.

the celebrity in question. all i have are my own observations borne out of my experience in teeny-tiny brookworld. my heart doesn't break for MJ or John Lennon or Kurt Cobain. nor am i angry with them. i didn't "know" them. they're ciphers to me. i feel a loss with Lennon and Cobain. i REALLY feel a loss for D Boon. i don't feel a loss regarding MJ -- i found the hysteria surrounding him tragically disgusting. them same i felt about Anna Nicole Smith. you KNEW it wasn't going to end well. but i never felt the need to get wrapped up in any of it. i guess that makes me a kind of detached spectator.

i kinda grok, from your post, that you're maybe keying into the 13-year old sleepovers (likely pedophilia). MJ indulged in colossal egocentric destructive behavior and weirdness that any normal person would be strung up for. no one made him indulge that shit into adulthood. he completely owns whatever bad shit he did. nobody gets a pass for that. if this were more an issue for me either thru my personal history or in my career (like, if i were a therapist for abused children), this would be forefront for me. as it stands, what i've been hurt by most in my life is people who couldn't deal with their own self-loathing, so that's what i've keyed into.

all that to say...peace.

If there is an Eternity, (or afterlife) to look forward to, I'm sure glad you won't be my judge!! How can any one human being be the judge and jury of another human being??? I'd really like to know?:shrug:

keep being reminded of John Donne:




http://www.online-literature.com/donne/409/

I've spent years mulling this over. It's more than the glass half full versus half empty. I talked about this with my 80 year old mother today. And like the teenager she is, she spoke words not unlike the John Lennon quote in the article above. I asked her why we have anger. And we both realized that not everything we have is good. She's from a Quaker family from Connecticut. I'm kid who grew up on the west coast. Flash in the pan versus a mother who came from a family that owns the same house since 1642.

Michael's dad seems to be a real prick. And children usually don't break away from abuse, because they don't have the security, knowledge, experience to do so. It's like the Stockholm syndrome. But yet your argument is that we are in control, and we have the ability to fend off the damaging blows. And if not when young, then later. I'm just learning these things at my age. I'm nearly fifty years too late. And lucky to be in one piece after the abuse I went through.

I have failed to say what it is I want to say. But it's something like being a victim versus rising above and being bigger. How can we instill that in people who don't see it? I was literally too small to be drafted into Vietnam. I was small enough that it was almost freakish. It affected me. Yet it didn't affect someone else I know who was the same size. It seems that there are a number of things besides writing and arithmetics that we should be instilling in our young students. Maybe this is all just dream talk. Maybe only a few people can see beyond their own situation, and transcend the sordid reality of it. Young or old. It does seem to be like having blinders on, for some people. Maybe we're only human.

birthday parties and kindergarten. he likely missed all the psycho-social developmental steps necessary to grow into a healthy adult.

And, Michael? I don't know for sure...no one does, but I don't believe he was a pedophile. He doesn't fit the profile at all. Too public in his affectations for children.

I think he was a sad, tortured soul and I hope he finds peace.

and divorced while they were putting together a "come-back" or "reunion." for some people, there's a special kind of ugliness associated with confronting the youthful success. some people can't deal with the pressure. some people simply can't form the meaningful relationships that would relieve that pressure. John Lennon is an example of someone who made it to the other side. MJ is not. he blew it -- you are quite correct.

I am over 50 and can relate in a microscopic way to what it must have been for him. No, he didn't ever have a chance.

I saw John shortly before his death. He and Yoko were walking along the stretch of park behind the Natural History Museum. They were complete with themselves, not seeking attention, blending in with everyone else who was walking along the stretch of park behind the Natural History Museum.

Still miss him and would love to hear his thoughts on the world today.

The Doobie Brothers

Don't you feel it growin', day by day
People gettin' ready for the news
Some are happy, some are sad
Oh, we got to let the music play
What the people need
Is a way to make 'em smile
It ain't so hard to do if you know how
Gotta get a message
Get it on through
Oh now mama, don't you ask me why

Oh, oh, listen to the music
Oh, oh, listen to the music
Oh, oh, listen to the music
All the time

Well I know, you know better
Everything I say
Meet me in the country for a day
We'll be happy
And well dance
Oh, were gonna dance our blues away
And if Im feelin' good to you
And you're feelin' good to me
There ain't nothin we can't do or say
Feelin' good, feeling fine
Oh, baby, let the music play

Oh, oh, listen to the music
Oh, oh, listen to the music
Oh, oh, listen to the music
All the time

Like a lazy flowing river
Surrounding castles in the sky
And the crowd is growing bigger
Listenin' for the happy sounds
And I got to let them fly

Oh, oh, listen to the music
Oh, oh, listen to the music
Oh, oh, listen to the music
All the time

I hope there was a bit of happiness somewhere in MJ's life. It may have been fleeting, but I truly hope it was there.

K & R !!!

:applause:

:hi:

will always cherish and feel especially privileged to have received.

You're spot on in saying that people wanted the freak show. But the artists were still just artists--people who were painting their vision of the world through their lyrics and their music. One of the best examples that I remember is "Horse Latitudes" by the Doors. The poem by Jim Morrison is an anguished instrumental and vocal retelling of the horrifying experience of horses being thrown into the Sargasso Sea by Spanish conquistadores who were becalmed in that harsh tropical ocean. Morrison, the poet, wrote the song after seeing a picture of the horses being thrown overboard. That, to me, was a window into the soul of a very sensitive individual who was overwhelmed by the freak show.

Recommend.


:hippie:

In addition to doing great things, they both were accused of great wrongdoing during their lives.

Whether they both answered for the allegations is open to question.

How many regular folk here (who might wear tennis shoes or an occasional Python boot) have been through the far end of the Bell curve of suffering, determined to recover and enjoy life?

*raising my hand*

And in that way, the child performer never went away. The performance was always partly Michael fighting back, trying to out-dance something much bigger than he was. That's what he brought to the party for his audiences. It was like watching an epic battle only idealized -- as if there was an "off stage" where Jackson's battle was no longer fought. There probably wasn't. The idea that he had an adult life offstage was probably part of the fictions actors and audiences collude in.

A long time ago I wrote a paper about the co-operating idealizations, the actor's and the audience's, that make theater possible. In a nutshell, the actor's fiction is that the audience is in charge; the audience's is that the actor is control. Of course, it's both and both are necessary to a successful performance. Thinking about Michael Jackson this weekend reminded me of that paper for some reason, maybe because the point of it was to say a word about how the idea that we have an inside came to be popularly expressed at about the time that the big theaters were built in Shakespeare's day.

It's sad to think that the only time Jackson was whole was during our "collusion" with his performances. We pretended with him that off stage, there was a wonderful life in the very same way we pretend that stage doors lead to other rooms. He gave us much but we gave him that, thank goodness.

I couldn`t help remembering Buddy Holly, The Big Bopper and Ritchie Valens. Rock and roll can never die.

Otis Redding performing at the concert on tv, too. Man! He was outstanding.

I'd forgotten about that scene with Lennon and the fan in "Imagine" John understood "celebrity"-
he was telling that guy "It was just a song, I'm just a guy" -he got it. Michael Jackson and Elvis
didn't get it-they fell into the trap.

he showed at the end of the scene, asking the fellow if he was hungry, showed a lot about Lennon.

nah-I fell in love with him when I was 8 years old. Life has just felt so weird lately. I recently found an XM radio station that plays 3 hours of Beatles every Sunday morning. I record it, and every morning I log come to DU, look for threads about JFK, then I walk by the lake for an hour listening to the Beatles. I keep thinking how strange this is, that I'm obsessed with these two events. The other night I pulled out my third grade class picture and stared at the smiling, happy little girl.
At the bottom of the picture is a placard "Lincoln School Nov.1963" So much has happened in the last forty five years-I've lived through so many intense ups and downs, yet latley I can't get past the sixties!

I lived a wild life back then. I nearly died a number of times. From overdoses to dramatic car wrecks. I was a musician. And when I finally had to decide whether I wanted to take it on as a career, I decided against it because I wanted to live. I know someone who was in the room when the Doors named themselves. My friends used to hang out at Neil Young's barn when he practiced on his ranch. One of them is dead from being on stage. Literally. But that's another story. I've always felt that the world is a bunch of bland idiots. I'm older now, and still cannot tolerate the moderate, boring, dull society in which I live. I miss the wild nights of San Francisco alleys and bars and cocaine and peyote. I love almost all music. I'm listening to wild screaming punks right now. But Dvorzak was pretty cool.

Happy? High? I don't know. Talent can come in different ways. Through hard work, and through genes. But there is a personality that is perhaps manic that seems to pervade the entertainment business. I finally had to isolate. I can't even be around humans any more. But that's partly because my years of abuse finally caught up with me. I suppose it's fairly common for someone to go from closing bars and waking up not knowing where they are, to sitting at home at night with their cats, and avoiding all contact.

I certainly understand all of these people. And I think pain plays a central role in the need to express.


I'd like to add that pain is what makes me understand those at the business end of our military. And the poor. And the sick.

Ain't no good life

But it's my life.....

Willie Nelson

And I know what you mean about "there is a personality type..." - they're why I got out of the participant side of oval track racing. They are full of shit, and kind of know it - but they're sellin' the hell out of it anyway. Relentless....

starve themselves just to make it in an unreal setting. My mother told me that Michael Jackson was 125 pounds. And he was exercising 4 hours a day! No wonder he took pain killers.

This should make us all re-appraise what we demand of celebrities.

drug abuse and mental illness can be fixed, but not if they are ignored. Don't leave out Kurt Cobain either.

An abundance of brain activity can = clinical depression, bipolar disorder, etc. It's not their fault, but BY GOD, it is STILL not acceptable in this society to need effective brain medications, GOOD anti-depressants (not they crappy ones that insurance companies pay for or doctors are likely to recommend) and mood stabilizers.

So what happens? They self-medicate. Pain pills, heroin, whatever the case may be...anything that can help them feel relaxed and happy.

This is a societal problem. Insurance companies don't want to pay for the medications that really can work (always dependent on the individual...Cymbalta, Emsam, Pristiq, Metadate CD, Seroquel, etc.) BUT, they sure as hell will pay for pain pills and narcotics, because they are CHEAP AS HELL. And of course, there is always alcohol and tobacco. Vicodin is the NUMBER ONE prescribed drug in America, and it is dirt cheap.

This country and the world need to realize that brain diseases are no different than diseases of the other organs of the body. Got diabetes? Take Metformin or Insulin and society thinks that's okay. High blood pressure? Insurance companies will gladly pay for your Atenolol and Furosemide.

Can we please wake up, get out of the dark ages, and realize the REAL cost to society for brain disorders?

Whatever connection he had with his fans disappeared after "Thriller." He became increasingly plastic, increasingly isolated, increasingly obsessed with being The Biggest Star In The World.

There is a great political commentator named Bartcop. Some people on DU hate him, but he has never presumed to talk for the world, only himself. He remembered advice concerning Jackson that he wrote in a long-ago column, about the time Jackson won his first molestation trial:

I told Michael:
"Put a band together and go on the road. Don't bring the Monkey, don't bring the circus.
Don't bring the Elephant Man's bones, just pretend you're a singer in a rock and roll band."

Spookily, I suggested:
"And don't have some damn lottery with tickets.
Play in the same city again and again until everyone who wants to see you can."

He planned 50 shows in London next month - they say he sold out in 5 hours.
He took my advice, but not in time.

(Jackson's "Victory" tour originally sold tickets by lottery; he thought he could make a fortune that way. He didn't. But he priced tickets way beyond the reach of middle class or lower class people - in other words, the "Negroes" whom the stadiums and venues feared would riot at a Michael Jackson concert.)

If Jackson had just seen himself as a rock/soul singer, instead of The Biggest Star In The World, he might have lead a more productive, interesting, creative and lengthy life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaL1UE7-HdA

Oh, oh my darling
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah

The artist pays the price
So you won't have to pay
If only we would listen
To What they have to say

There are songs from wisdom
There are songs from from satan
There are songs from from lovin'
There are songs from And hatin'

There are songs from lust
There are songs from pain
Some songs were done by chosen men
Some from men, insane
Groove, baby, groove on the light, one time
Groove, baby, on the right
Dance, baby, to the light this time
Dance sugar, on the right side

Groove, baby, groove on the light, this time
Groove, baby, on the right side
Dance, baby, to the light and you do good
Dance, baby, to the light

Some songs will show wich way to go
If only you would listen
Bad songs that turn you on
Show you how much is missing

Songs we're meant to listen to
You're checkin' out the best
Good songs were sent to men from God
Help us pass the test

Life is for learning
And the purpose is joinin' up
With the love of thousand bodies needed
But your soul is never destroyed

Your love, darling, this is all we desire
And all they want is a little understanding, yeah
Sometimes as song can prophesize a warning from the Master
To make your soul listen to, make your learnin' faster

The devil have his special plan
To make hot songs for sinners
Thank God we'll turn its around
And make good songs for winners

Ay, did you know
Some songs can corrupt your flesh to dust
The only song you should live
Are songs that you can trust
The artist pays the price

Neil Young playing with DEVO which is how "Rust Never Sleeps" was born.

link to lots links
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=293x1376

Thank you for this.

K & R

but it can't govern Destiny.