Has DU lost it's Soul in some ways?

Been here a spell, been reading this site since about the time it came online.

Outside of all the flame wars over Edwards' big house, Steve Irwin, MJ, rec/unrecs, etc if there is one thing I think that has become more pronounced is the lack of community amongst members here.

To wit - the way we treat others (myself included to be sure). Mythsaje has a recent post which is filled with replies I would have never expected from progressives who often put themselves into the shoes of others. One can certainly disagree, and say why, it just seems HOW we disagree has become more filled with anger/mean spiritedness than ever before.

I won't claim to be immune from it myself in anyway. Just seems it has all become so much more emotional and anger filled than it once was. Of course before it was a more of 'US' vs 'THEM' sort of thing. We stuck together on core issues. We felt pity for people from those that were homeless to those caught in the crossfire of the wars our government launched.

We had a common enemy most the time.

Criticism? Always a good thing. I have learned a lot from it here. How one serves it up though tells a lot about them. Is there really a need to kick someone's ass the way some have done here? I don't pretend to know what others are going through in their personal life - maybe they have a loved one dying, maybe they lost a job and may lose their home soon, who knows. There is a difference in disagreeing with someone and ripping them apart.

You think DU is just another stop on the net, maybe it is to you but to others it has much more meaning. It has become an anchor in the hurricanes of their lives. It was to me many times. Maybe you have a whole life and network of friends to rely on, some here don't. They are sick, physically disabled, etc and so on, and this is their one stop that means a lot more to them than it does to me or you.

I and others would do better to be kinder to others here and realize that posting here is a life line to some and that replying in a hateful way has an impact on them. Does not mean I have to agree, but I can disagree without being a dick (which I have been at times).

As a liberal and progressive I have learned that the world may well be different for me than for others, and this little outpost on the net has a meaning bigger to some than to me.

Trying being someone disabled with little income and not much else to do but post here, watch tv, and so on. No car, no money for a car and barely enough for food. Suddenly a place like this becomes really important to you. Does not mean such a person wants coddled or agreed with all the time, just means we don't have to call them names or denigrate what it means to them to be here and having an outlet.

Disagree, argue, tell someone you think they are wrong and show them why.

It does not take humiliating them to do so. Don't need name calling. Does not mean they are weak. Just means that maybe they rely on us to be a little stronger for them at a delicate time in their life - and we can do that and disagree with being assholes.

DU will never be the same as it was 2 years ago, until the Republicans are back in power.

DU is dead! Long live DU! :hi:

I saw us picking up traits from republicans. There was already a lot of Lou Dobbs style racism, complete contempt for immigrants as humans and lack of any compassion for their circumstances. That spread to people living in other countries, who were suddenly less than fully human because they had the audacity to accept a job and not-be-one-of-us. That's not saying everyone was like that, there were some who argued against it, but it said something that those sorts of comments were allowed to stand at times. I don't mean that as a statement about the mods, but rather a statement about the community.

We also picked up some of the nastiness of republicans, which is maybe because we've been listening to their ratcheted up rhetoric in the media for so long. Sexist comments about their candidates became acceptable - not because it was right, but because they did it first. I saw people voice a lot of support for the notion of playing dirty because republicans do. I understand tactically why they felt that was okay.

The downfall is that I don't believe you can learn to be nasty and vicious in one part of your life and successfully keep it compartmentalized. It just becomes a part of who you are.

However, I will comment with the advice that I always give here... If someone replies with a personal attack, name calling, etc., rather than sinking to the same level, alert the mods. That's what they're here for. That would stop many flame wars in their tracks. And if you disagree with somebody, be civil. Attack the message, but not the messenger. End of sermon... ;)

It's not enough to just disagree, but you have to taint the poster.

People are either cheerleaders or Obama-haters. Bush enablers or green voters.

I feel like Rodney King around here. Can't we all just get along?

We've had some ridiculous flamewars on DU in the past (LOL @ the Steve Irwin memories!), but the greatest shift I've noticed at DU recently is the casual disregard with which we treat one another.

I think the "big tent" meme has been overplayed, but it still holds value when dealing with large, disparate groups of people aligned for a common cause. We're all "Us"; there is no "Them."

.

What's bothered me most lately, is that if someone disputes an opinion i've made, they don't even try to refute with links and quotes. I'm more likely to get called stupid, ignorant, or woo-woo than to have someone try and tactfully explain the error of my thinking. Honestly, i go into most arguments with an open mind... willing to change it, if the counter-argument is persuasive and fact-based. What happened to "fact-based" on this website?

I used to come here for the news... now i go to TPM and Huffpo for that. It seems like even the conversation has been dulled to hand-slappin', high-fivin', or otherwise, snotty putdowns and regurgitated talking points.

:(

That's it in a nutshell for me. I don't mind being told I'm wrong--because really, that's a good part of what learning is all about--but I'm disinclined to learn anything from being called stupid, woo, crazy, etc.

I think it goes back to the "blood-sport" aspect of any anonymous Internet forum: Many people are more interested in scoring points against Them than educating Us, and they've forgotten that we're all Us here at DU.

Call me an old curmudgeon if you must, but I think too many people today have taken Cartman from South Park as a role model. :(

and though i love South Park and the Simpsons... i wouldn't want to act like Cartman or Homer (maybe Lisa).

It has, i admit, somewhat deadened me to discourse here.

:(

Unless your goal is to be mildly sociopathic. :)

By the way, I like your Etsy leatherworking. :hi:

I guess i could say i'd rather not be mildly sociopathic, or be as dumb as a box o' rocks (ala Homer).

But cartoons like that sure do make me chuckle...

Cheers to you.

"i remember when DU used to be bla, bla, bla..."

really?

:hi:

:hi:

but to the rest of us?

you just did your "old folk" fail.

ha!

We still have a bunch of letters we can use, so please let it rip. :)

:)

either you didn't read the post or it went right over your head. The post is correct the amount of vitriol on DU as of late is disarming. I expect better from progressives. I don't know if there has been a single turning point, but calling for the assassination of the right wing radio guy in Boston and calling Dennis Kucinich names you would hear from a 12 year old seem for me to be it, sure during the primary it got out of hand but it continues. I still love DU and post here everyday but I guess like the OP I expect better.

Edited to admit I have been guilty of it in the past and sometimes get caught up in it when someone needlessly attacks me, but I aim to do better, life is too short to get in pissing matches with people on a message board. My life certainly isn't that devoid of meaningful things that I seek pleasure from ripping a stranger on a message board.

Oh wait, no I don't.

Yes.

Maybe it's just my imagination, but the appetite for blood sport seems a little more abundant these days. Bewildering and depressing.

It almost makes you wonder if this is the same place that celebrates births and grieves losses and that sends hundreds of flowers $5 at a time. I'm at a loss right now, myself.

I agree with posters who decry the lack of real civility here anymore. I have almost quit posting because I don't like being mocked and called names constantly for stating what I think are reasonable opinions.

I remember the day when we could find DU posts with many links, compiled for us by real activists with actual grasp of issues. I remember when we were able to unite behind Andy and Cindy and many others without being so damn vicious when we had disagreements.

Motiveless malice that passes for wit these days. But thanks for the reality check. :hi:

I hadn't been able to put my finger on it, but that's the sea change I see. :hi:

between being constructive and being destructive.

happens every year.

Though I've been accused of other things... like being melodramatic. :shrug:

Yes, indeed I am. Thanks for sticking around.

I'm one of those who believe that liberals should extrapolate their politics of caring for all, to their own lives. If we treat people like shit on an internet forum, just because we're anonymous and think we can get away with it, we're dead wrong. It will bleed over into the rest of our lives, whether we admit it or not.

You've always been decent and kind, Mythsage. I'm glad you're here.

And when it gets out of hand, I stop reading. I've never bothered to add someone to an ignore list, because just ignoring witout artificial enhancement is easy enough. It's the Internet, folks, and the anonymity changes behavior you'd never (or seldom) see face-to-face.

The only people I've ever got into pissing matches with were those who were being recreationally officious, and who were (IMO) in it solely for the flame. No real harm.

So don't indulge it. Somebody gets out of line, blow 'em off. Don't respond. Find another post to comment on or another thread in the post you're interested in.

I don't pretend to know what DU was like before last fall, but since then, in my time reading and posting, I see much concern and care for each other and the issues. I also see what you are writing about and appreciate your concern. An online community, like a community in the real world finds its strength in the respect shown to each other and the responsibility assumed for one's own actions.

There is certainly enough to be upset and angry about in this crazy world, I would like to think that DU is a place to embrace common ideas and ideals, find ways to respect differences, while still being able to engage in sometimes heated discussions. Thanks for the post.

It used to be thought provoking and fun to read. (Was a long time reader that registered in '08, and still do no post regularly.)
Now, I just feel like I am watching same train wreck in slow motion, or a daily High School debate show.
The most juvenile thing I see is when someone posts nothing but this: :rofl: in response to another DUers OP or comment.
Laughing at someone is degrading. Doing that to DUers genuinely trying to participate in discussions is nothing short of meanness.

Important calls to action and serious OPs are ignored for the most part, and yet frequent posters seem to flock over to the same thread just to add to tension and trouble. The main agitators stand out because they are hauling around the same discontent and grudges, and they target OP's daily just to disrupt and/or piss on discussions. I am burned out by the bullies.
It is plain sad to see people tearing each other down and doing their best to divide DU up into factions.

It never used to be this bad, but the last primary wars created a lasting wound. Something I was afraid would happen, actually.

"Important calls to action and serious OPs are ignored for the most part, and yet frequent posters seem to flock over to the same thread just to add to tension and trouble. The main agitators stand out because they are hauling around the same discontent and grudges, and they target OP's daily just to disrupt and/or piss on discussions. I am burned out by the bullies.
It is plain sad to see people tearing each other down and doing their best to divide DU up into factions."

But I have seen you engage in that type of behavior more than a few times yourself. I am not claiming to be totally innocent, it is just good to admit wrongdoing and not get on high horses.

:hi:

This change and the reaction have shown that the detractors' self righteousness about their abusive behavior will continue, unless maybe having their power trip button to push, cheers them up a bit.

Jr high school stuff.

We oblige.

It is sad.

a long, long time ago - if this link even still works

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=196554#197873

And It just hit me that it has been 8 years...incredible when you think of it. I mean 8 years to a young person is a life time.
And it has been a refuge for me in a way because I always could come here and post in a thread or an OP controversial things (controversial to some people) and I would be at least given a fair hearing of my ideas, and in many cases have a very interesting conversation.
The difference I see now is that it is no longer safe to post controversial subjects unless you can stand the heat, because someone will surly call you an idiot, a bigot, accuse you of being a troll, jump all over any spelling or grammatical error, or tell you that you should be tomb stoned because you have transgressed them in some way, and of course now, unrecommended and take away someone else's recommendation.

It is not that it never happened before, but that it is prevalent now. And perhaps this is the natural progression of an "underground" movement...at first they embrace the diversity of their members until they are no longer underground and then they embrace group think and demand compliance to the rule of conformaty....Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Yes it is a crisis of soul.

when the group was smaller (in the past). Heretics and heresies were likely to be hounded out. "I cannot believe there are people who believe X EVEN ON DU!" would be the refrain.

we were once united against BushCo. Now many of us don't know who to rally around; our own party seems to be "the new boss, (almost the) same as the old boss", and that's lead to a lot of questioning and knashing of teeth around here. Some demand conformity; "my party, right or wrong", others are more devoted to party principles than to party leaders. There's far less unity because we no longer share common goals; some want us out of Iraq NOW, others just want whatever the Whitehouse wants.

Snarking back just winds up feeling like adding to the trash heap. And it's just that much more time I don't read anything else.

Sheesh. If Ignore explodes this weekend, that was me breaking it.

Recently, it's become a way to tune out some of the childish bullshit that seems to permeate the New, Not-So-Improved DU.

Imo, the time it takes to put someone on ignore is time spent internalizing disengagement and useful in itself.

But, I'm having a real problem keeping my hands off of the schoolyard malice lately, so.

It can help your blood pressure.

Sometimes I don't even reply to ### evil replies because I know it will only lead to more put downs.

What I miss is the intellectual debates with respect for the opinion of others.

If I didn't know better I would think that it is on purpose.

....That one group of people have just decided to be the Back Stabbers of DU and the beat is allowed to go on.

I really don't have the energy to be put down, if I wanted to I could watch Fox News for that punishment.

I'm still working on it. :)

I sometimes wonder how many folks who have a genuine interest but are less "thick skinned" have faded away.

the rest of the place. During BushCo years, it was pretty well contained there (with a few racial or misogynist comments occasionally slipping out here and there)

Now, without the "common enemy" of BushCo, the ugliness is making it's way into the other forums as well - but many of us have seen it for a long time (including getting shouted down for pointing it out before because we, the minority - really didn't know what was best as the majority did)

liberal, progressive and all the other labels that we use have vastly different meanings - and without the common enemy to rail and fight against - all the various frictions and disagreements rise to the surface of the group.

Not quite "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" level - but certainly the underlying foundation for it

Bring up General Discussion and take a look at the posts that have had the most "views". Then look at it again to see which posts have the most potential content and see how many "views" they've gotten. A shampoo post has 19 recs and 1980 "views". That should tell you all you need to know.

or at least quit taking their bait - they will continue to rule public debate.

is almost as pervasive as our lack of civility. Endeavor to persevere!

there are many that no longer consider the GOP a threat. So with out that uniting sense of working together against a common enemy, there has been less to hold DU together.

There are mean people and those who are not mean. I have zero respect for those who make constant snark.

at Sarah Palin, Mark Sanford, John Ensign, etc., etc., ad nauseam. Can I live? :shrug:

It is a different message board from the time I joined and was active. In addition to the uncivility, I really dislike the vast amount of concern-trolling taking place almost constantly.

I am not being paranoid when I say that DU has been heavily invaded by people who try to water down our message. They might be true trolls or just "centrists" who do not like our liberal, progressive ideas, I don't know. To me, other than the old-time, true progressive posters, this board seems not so progressive anymore. Rather than being the "lock step" place posters are accusing us of being, I'll go out on a limb and say we are not "lock step" enough!

This used to be my home away from home, but there are too many other progressive sites out there where people stay on the Democratic message together.

The primaries didn't help, though.

Then the SOUL of DU comes together nicely.

Just in the past four days, the DU community helped someone has breain injuries get to see AeroSmith, a lifelong dream of theirs. That wouldn't be my personal dream, but if voting for that individual on some other website made their day, me and 600 other DU'ers thought it worth taking a moment.

Sometimes there is too much rancor, but on the other hand, would it be great fun if everyone agreed with everyone all the time? And "ignore" helps keep the rancor out of one's life, if it is constantly coming from just one DU member.

it's deceptive to suggest that that 'this little outpost on the net' has a soul.

It's cruel to be kind because it's self-deceptive.

together. And being cruel is never kind.

It's direction? Sure. It's "family" feel? Sure (check the primary threads)! But not the collective soul that brought us all together to begin with, not this haven!

K&R - great post and a timely reminder :hug:

of shit stirring freepers in disguise.

My ignore list in just the last couple of days has grown. I never would have considered doing that, but a majority of these new folks are tawdry, childish and just want to argue.

against torture, against bailouts for the banksters, against any option other than single payer health care, and just because we got a new preznit all that makes me the enemy.

It's like Joe Walsh says,"Everybody's so different, I haven't changed."

I see you are a fan of DK as well by your pic. That's usually a good sign in my book. :hi:

Usually it's the "cult of Obama" or the "Obama cheerleaders" as I have come to know them who attack me all the time. I voted for Obama, and Yes, I question some of the stuff Obama does. To not do so would make us just like Bush and the Republicans! I will never understand blind loyalty - regardless of whether someone has a (D) or an (R) in front of their name.

I do think we have lost the ability to just disagree but the name calling is so Freeper like, why do we do it here?
I see nothing wrong with criticizing Obama but if people disagree with each other, why are they place in categories as haters or cheerleaders? Ridiculous.

in my previous post - i just said that's how i've come to know them - to classify them in my head. But feel free to channel your anger at my "ridiculous" post right here if you need to. :eyes: The reason why i group them in my head that way is because it is the same people, or squad if you will, that support even the worst of Obama's actions. the same ones, every time.

I totally have disagreed with.
Please don't leave like you said in the last post. I think DU is big enough for all of us liberals. I do get the anger but I just think there are many different fractions of Dems here that its impossible for all of us to agree all the time. I have very conservative parents and I think I just learned to walk away at the end of the day and agree to disagree and yet still be family. They will never change my mind, however (thankfully).

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

:hi:

this place has become infested with FR trolls. Over on FR, if youre not lock step with anything not to the right of Mussolini, you get booted off. Not even being rude or offensive. On here, trolls are allowed to continue to post propaganda under the guise of being fair, hence the lack of community.

Maybe you remember that little thing we had last year called the primary. Kinda nasty. What's happening now really isn't much different. People have strong opinions and they disagree. Expectations are high and frustration is natural when things aren't what they want.

Folks are going through a lot of shit these days, so DU becomes a venting mechanism. Nothing really surprising about this and I'm not sure that in the end this isn't a good thing. It's better to blow off steam in DU land then the real world.

This reminds me of my 25 year-old nephew who is a very shy, introverted, socially-inept person who acts like a "killer android" when he's on some of the sites he frequents. It doesn't matter to him if it's a reasoned argument or if he's being mean as hell, he gets to live out his fantasy of being a badass when he has the anonymity of the internetz to rely upon.

I hope your plea has a positive effect.

Recommend.

and thoughtless responses. Remember when....this was a literary place and indeed an anchor in the storm.

the same people that used to be more civil?

I also used to think DU was superior to most places in that there was a very high standard of providing links and doing research.
One quickly became aware that the community expected you to back up what you say.
It was something to be proud of.

I have to add here, that some of the best minds, for various reasons, are gone.
Some may have even been TSed for ideological issues, perhaps for espousing third party options,

Whatever the reasons, one might come to the observation that the people who started, and run this board seem to lean to wards the center and
the rules don't necessarily allow for all progressive ideas. When we were all fighting Bush, the differences between more radically progressive attitudes and more conservative, center leaning Democrats, didn't always matter as much. Now obviously, those differences come more to the forefront.
It's my personal opinion that when you lose your radicals, you lose many of your greatest minds. I feel the loss of some very highly principled and intellectually vigorous folks, and an increase in less principled ones. Perhaps this is reflected in less research and thoughtful discussion, and more vitriol.


JMHO

I don't claim to be responsible for my brethren here, but please tell us your stories and responsibilities ;-)

Everyone Into Sotomayors Pool!

I've been arguing against the swim club being engaged in racism. Not once have I had to say. I'm not one of THOSE kind of Wizards. I'm a real Wizard. That's Vizir = seer of light. There is light, darkness and varying shades of gray on both sides of this issue. Both sides have yet to come into clear focus. So I must say that at least in this area of hurtful personal attacks. DU has made vast improvements. To the people on those threads I must say. Thank You for only viciously attacking my arguments. That I actually enjoy.

Just as I said in those threads. There's a jerk in every crowd. The opinions of that jerk are not Representative of the entire group. So I still believe DU hasn't lost it's soul. Even if there is one amongst us that is struggling to manifest the good in their soul. I only had to say it once. That's still a big improvement. God bless the rest of you that refuse to sink to those depths.

During Bush/Cheney's reign of terror, that conservative/moderate group could simply dismiss lefties as Conspiracy Theorists, and rest assured that while Bushco were bad, they weren't really that bad since moderates ALWAYS seek to lessen/downplay/trivialize crimes of the corporate/state nexus.

So now w/o that it tends to cast more revealing light on differences re personal psychology, belief systems, social and professional systems of indoctrination, w/lefties criticizing Obama's admin as being too rightward, and moderates becoming angry over having to tolerate leftist views here that frames their political ideology in a way they don't like having to defend - since it is in many ways antithetical to much of the Dem rhetoric that, as a phony oppositional party, only exists in lip service, and always has a rightist-friendly excuse as to why no action/actuality is able to manifest or move forward.

Democratic Underground has become just another blog where drama sells...

It's still one of the best places for breaking news and the inside story but as far as the community itself? I'm shocked by the abject rudeness. It's as bad as -if not worse than- the hannity's and orielly's; smug, self satisfied, berating, baiting, insulting and inflammatory posts/replies all JUST to get a reaction- worse because it's coming from people that CLAIM to be Democrats/progressives.

The new unrec feature makes it all the worse- the overall atmosphere is one of contempt - it's just over the top PETTY nastiness being encouraged and condoned by our very own. It's a modern day Coliseum and it disgusts me.