Howard Dean says we're losing jobs to Canada because they have national healthcare

and Obama says we can't have single payer because we'd have to re-invent 1/6 of our economy.

Unless a LOT of us get jobs in the health insurance industry, doesn't it make more sense to keep those jobs and go with single payer?

Here's is Dean's interview on Democracy Now! today:

Howard Dean on His Prescription for Real Healthcare Reform

The House Ways and Means Committee approved legislation early this morning to overhaul the nation’s healthcare system and expand insurance coverage. By a 23-to-18 vote, the committee backed key elements of President Obama’s blueprint for healthcare, including the creation of a new government health plan and requirements for employers to offer health insurance to workers or contribute to its cost. To help fund the changes to the healthcare system, the House committee also agreed to impose a surtax on families with incomes of more than $350,000 a year. Meanwhile, the conservative American Medical Association has just come out in support of the House bill, saying “the status quo is unacceptable.” Today we spend the hour with Howard Dean, physician, six-term Vermont governor, Democratic presidential candidate in 2004, and former chairman of the Democratic National Committee. Dean’s solution embraces President Obama’s healthcare plan but argues that the reform bill is “not worth passing unless the American people have the choice of signing up for a public option—a real public option.”

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/7/17/gov_howard_dean_on_his_prescription

Audio, video, transcript at link

He was very positive about the president and mostly criticized the DC culture. He talked a LOT about single payer in that interview. It was a good one, if you get a chance to watch or read.

"HOWARD DEAN: Well, it’s hard to define—here’s the—you get into a very sort of a delicate game about single payer. I think what single-payer advocates mean is that everybody should be in a government-run system. But if you’re going to argue, as the book does, that we shouldn’t have politicians and bureaucrats and insurance companies making this decision, this decision belongs in the hands of the American public, which is why this movement for—to change the healthcare system is so much more powerful this time around than it was fifty years ago, if you’re going to make that argument, then it’s pretty hard to turn around and say, “Well, on the other hand, the government can make a choice and put you all in their system."

"HOWARD DEAN: Yeah, look, I don’t position myself against single payer, but I position myself for giving the American people a choice."


No, CLEARLY, he is anti-single-payer if he is pro-insurance-choice.

The shitty part of this position is that most people don't have a choice of insurance to begin with: their employer picks it out. And further, this leaves them with little freedom in employers (as well as marriage at times), because they lose their safety net when they leave their employer (unless they go to a new one with better health plans).

But for others, choice is simply limited by costs (or pre-existing conditions). Some people cannot afford any plan. Some people can, but cannot afford to use their plans due to copays and deductibles.

Choice, now, is illusionary, because people essentially might have the option to choose one shitty plan or another, but all plans that have a 75% chance of bankrupting you if you get in a severe car accident of get cancer.

To be pro-insurance choice, as Howard Dean is, is to be pro death, pro indentured servitude, pro debt, and pro bankruptcy. That is the true manifestation of choice in the United States.

And the worst part about it all, these choices in insurance limit health care choices. Certain procedures aren't approved, certain costs aren't covered, certain doctors and hospitals aren't approved, etc. Single-Payer delivers choice where it is important: in health decisions. They remain between a doctor and a patient, because procedures are pre-approved. People get the care their doctor tells them they need.

Single-Payer delivers choice when it matters. Multi-Payer delivers a piece of shit system.

This former Dean supporter thinks he needs to remove his head from his ass

For his position to be coherent, these choices in insurance have to exist, right? How can he be for choice and against choices? He cannot.

I don't want to get in a pie fight with you, Oregone. Howard put out some good points today.

The choice remark is aimed at people who want to hang on to what they have -- even if you know and I know and he knows that it's an illusion.

(To start, lying about how the public option is a single payer program)

Im not sure how much longer anyone can continue to give him the benefit of the doubt. Look, Im not throwing him under the bus as some DINO Republican. But I think he clearly fits right in with the leaders of the Democrats as being anti-single-payer.

Aim whatever remarks you want wherever, but we need leaders who take a stand, educate, and spearhead progressive policy. We don't need dodging, word-twisting, and hopeful caving in. You are welcome to read whatever you want into his comments, but I will take them at face value with dismay at the overall approach.

is single payer in this interview.

The way I heard it, is that he did his best to not to knock Obama's plan WHILE he was debunking all the bs talking points about single payer. But, you seem to have more of this in hand than I do.

Sometimes saying the public option is like single payer (lie) and sometimes saying it is a single payer system (lie).

http://www.healthcare-now.org/dr-dean-single-payer-is-not-off-the-table

See, Im not sure what is going on with him, but the liberties he is taking are going a bit too far. You think he is framing this for the right, but it more appears he is trying to sell a poison pill to the left with this hijacking of language.

And I agree, that is going too far.

I just don't understand it. He is someone I have had a lot of respect for.

So, is he doing this to convince the leftist naysayers, in order to push a little incremental reform with hope springing from a dried pragmatic well? In other words, is he assuming the Ends justifies the Means, and something in the end is better than nothing? Or is it more? I don't know. I couldn't be more confused about his big "public option" push and methods. One thing I can say: at least he is using leadership, which is more than most of the other Democrats (though I don't prefer where he is leading).

which is what he believes we can get right now. In fact, he says that a few months ago, he figured that out.

People say that Obama is a pragmatist. DEAN is a pragmatist -- which is why all that bs about him being some kind of ideologue was just laughable.

And I also appreciate him getting out there to promote the public option because these vampires are perfectly capable of passing a bill that mandates us all buying insurance and calling it "healthcare reform". As long as they sign something on camera, they can celebrate, no matter how awful it really is for us.

He'd prefer single payer, I suspect, but he's being pressured to lend his support to this disaster of a "public option" insurance program that's working its way through Congress. He's torn. He wants to be a team player, but he also wants to do what is right. Mandatory insurance is not right, and I think he knows that.

That's my take, fwiw.

:dem:

-Laelth

But it does not force people on it. Please tell me how you think we would get that if we can not even get an inch from the bought-off Democrats?

"Public option provides an option of single payer. "

What part of "Single" do you not understand in "single payer"?

You force it on people, the same way you force social security on them, and the same way you force deposited wealth insurance on them (FDIC). And when did providing services become "forcing"?

Its just fucking insurance. It doesn't need a pretty logo and a TV ad.

People say Obama plays chess, but he's got nothing on Dr. Dean.

Dean is a MD (and his wife is still a practicing MD), a former governor, and he's got family background in Wall Street. That gives him the ability to see the medical, political, and corporate viewpoint on this issue. That doesn't mean he favors the corporate viewpoint though. There's a reason he walked away from what could have been a lucrative Wall Street career and moved to Vermont.

Long story short here, Dean knows that single payer is the best solution. He also knows that the public - horribly misinformed by the corporate media as they are - would be more accepting of that solution if it were a choice.

And the corporate tools would not be able to compete with a public option. And so eventually they would stop trying, and move on to another way to rip people off. Leaving a single payer system.

It's a sound strategy, and infinitely better than anything the likes of Baucus or Schumer could come up with.

Personally, I'd prefer a complete switch over to single payer right now. But if my choice is playing chess with Howard, or playing corporate fellatio with Max & Chuckie, I'm standing with Dr. Dean.

Who knows.

to get, he's probably right.

They'd take that, too, if they could, and we'd spend all that money for nothing PLUS be mandated to buy "insurance" we can't afford.

my resources and my time and effort in starting a business in Canada.

The US? No frickin way. In addition to the typical start-up risks there is also a health risk which cannot be adequatley insured.

Better to let someone else bear that risk.

are the very top few per cent.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if health care costs played a big part in a company's decision to outsource jobs. How could it not? A large company could save hundreds of thousands of dollars by employing people in countries that have national health care. I've never understood why this hasn't been part of the debate all along. Also, how many companies don't have offices/branches/plants in America BECAUSE of the health care costs? If a European company wants to open an office in North America, why would they choose the US when they could move to Canada and not have to spend all that money on health insurance for the employees?

As long as a national health care plan is presented as something that's best for the people of America, it probably won't happen. Start making the argument that it's best for American businesses and suddenly, single-payer will be all the rage! ;-)


On edit: I don't have time to read the article now, so if Dr. Dean already addressed my questions/comments, my apologies. :-)

I was so brainwashed, I never thought it out on my own. :crazy:

:hi:

auto manufacturing jobs, for example.

And didn't think at all about the entertainment industries, etc.

Why do we never hear this? It never occurred to me and it's so obvious. :crazy:

First our manufacturing jobs are going to Canada and in California our entertainment industries are going to Canada and New Zealand. Because these countries have decent national health care, the industries involved don't carry the burden of having to provide health care to the workers most of whom are union. Making employers buy insurance will not solve this problem because it doesn't relieve the burden from those industries. The fact is that single payer universal health care is the only way to solve this problem and keep some of our jobs here that haven't been outsourced elsewhere. It's the only fiscally sound way of saving many of our industries and keeping them here. I tell you the insurance companies have to be booted from delivering basic health care to the population. Having deductibles and co-pays like outlined in the House and Senate plans aren't going to accomplish anything either.

his voice would make a difference.

:(

In edit and hardly anyone was listening to Kucinich when he was making this point about jobs years ago.

He prefers the death and bankruptcy that a choice of insurance brings about, it would unfortunately seem.

Dean speaking at the AHIP convention, the same association that was mentioned by Bill Moyers last week for discrediting SICKO.

So it makes me uneasy to hear Dean try and equate single-payer and the public option as he has done in the past or to hear him say "The other problem is, nobody really knows what a single payer is..."


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5792680&mesg_id=5792680

Ex-Governors Spar Over The Role of a Public Plan at AHIP Convention

"What the president is proposing to do is say, if you like what you have, you can keep it. If you're comfortable with the private insurance market, you can keep it. Not only that, but we'll help you buy it. There will be a government subsidy based on your income, particularly helpful to small businesses, that you will receive to buy healthcare in the private market," Dean said. "But you will also have a choice of buying into a public plans such as Medicare or some other public plan. And I'm one of the few defenders of that in this room."

"Now I know people in this room, in this industry, are very, very fearful," he said. "This is the center of opposition."

He looked at the rows of representatives of Aetna, Blue Cross, and dozens of other companies assembled and said, "Your living is at stake here. But I don't think it's going to be as tough as you think it is."

this so called "public option". And he supports Dennis's amendment.

advocating for SP, our tax dollars to subsidize private insurance companies.

:(

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5792680&mesg_id=5792680

"...If you're comfortable with the private insurance market, you can keep it. Not only that, but we'll help you buy it..."

:(

Also the lower CBO score he mentions is not complete, it did not account for increased Medicaid spending.

I'll look for the link later tonight in case anyone is interested. It is in here somewhere, just forget which document.

Obama went out there much further than most of them before he realigned himself.

:(

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6078401&mesg_id=6081045

Waxman...

'I'm now working on the plan outlined by President Obama...we're building on the employer based system..."

Re-posted from above.

He'd prefer single payer, I suspect, but he's being pressured to lend his support to this disaster of a "public option" insurance program that's working its way through Congress. He's torn. He wants to be a team player, but he also wants to do what is right. Mandatory insurance is not right, and I think he knows that.

That's my take, fwiw.

:dem:

-Laelth

especially on an issue of this magnitude.

Rallying people to support a public option when there were no guarantees of how it would emerge, how it would be financed and how many people it would leave behind is a large price for wanting to play on the team.


The deal...November 2008...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6083122&mesg_id=6083153

"The health insurance industry said today it will support a national health care overhaul that requires them to accept all customers, regardless of pre-existing medical conditions -- but in return it wants lawmakers to mandate that everyone buy coverage..."


Posted this above...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6089657&mesg_id=6090352

I'm against using tax payer money to fun private insurance companies...
Dean speaking at the AHIP convention, the same association that was mentioned by Bill Moyers last week for discrediting SICKO.

So it makes me uneasy to hear Dean try and equate single-payer and the public option as he has done in the past or to hear him say in this interview "The other problem is, nobody really knows what a single payer is..."

That is a subtle attack on SP and I just do not understand why he is doing this???

Has never spoken with Conyers, Kucinich or anyone from PNHP that has been advocating for a SP system since the 80's.

:shrug:

Ex-Governors Spar Over The Role of a Public Plan at AHIP Convention

http://healthplans.hcpro.com/content.cfm?content_id=234081&topic=WS_HLM2_HEP

"What the president is proposing to do is say, if you like what you have, you can keep it. If you're comfortable with the private insurance market, you can keep it. Not only that, but we'll help you buy it.

"Now I know people in this room, in this industry, are very, very fearful," he said. "This is the center of opposition."

He looked at the rows of representatives of Aetna, Blue Cross, and dozens of other companies assembled and said, "Your living is at stake here. But I don't think it's going to be as tough as you think it is..."


:(

others are subject to outsourcing.

So all you sick people are coming up here, with your untreated illnesses, your long-standing medical problems that could have been fixed years ago, and dumping them into our system which is already straining at the seams because our Conservative government won't fund it properly because of their comparisons to your oh-so-perfect system down there and scare tactics comparing our system to the British.

business friendly place because of their saner system. There's no blame there.

Healthcare is 1/6th (appr. 18%) of the economy. But it is only the health insurance industry that would need to be re-invented. For the rest of the healthcare industry it would be no more than a different person to send the bill to.

're-inventing 1/6 of our economy' WAY overstates the downside of going to a single-payer system, and ignores the huge upside to it, such as relieving the insurance burden from employers which will make them competitive again.

This whole "we're not starting from scratch" argument fails. We have historically an employer based system? We have historically a lot of things that didn't work for the American people and I'm sure Obama is aware of a few of them.

to all the bullshit being thrown at health care reform.

.