MYTH...Reverse Racism

http://www.raceandhistory.com/selfnews/viewnews.cgi?newsid1024893033,80611,.shtml


A Look at the Myth of Reverse Racism
Posted: Monday, June 24, 2002

By Tim Wise

Recently, when speaking to a group of high school students, I was asked why I only seemed to be concerned about white racism towards people of color. We had been discussing racial slurs, and a number of white students wondered why I didn’t get as upset about blacks using terms like “honky” or “cracker,” as I did about whites using words like “nigger.”

Although such an issue may seem trivial in the larger scheme of things—especially given the more significant discussions about racism in the educational system that I had hoped to engage in that day—the challenge posed by the students was actually an important one. In fact, it allowed a discussion about the very essence of what racism is and how it operates.

On the one hand, of course, such slurs are quite obviously inappropriate and offensive, and ought not to be used. That said, I pointed out that even the mention of the words “honky” and “cracker” had elicited laughter; and not only from the black students in attendance, but also from other whites.

The words are so silly, so juvenile, so utterly pathetic that they hardly qualify as racial slurs at all, let alone slurs on a par with those that have been historically deployed against people of color.

The lack of symmetry between a word like honky and a slur such as “nigger” was made apparent in an old Saturday Night Live skit, with Chevy Chase and guest, Richard Pryor.

In the skit, Chase and Pryor face one another and trade off racial epithets during a segment of Weekend Update. Chase calls Pryor a “porch monkey.” Pryor responds with “honky.” Chase ups the ante with “jungle bunny.” Pryor, unable to counter with a more vicious slur against whites, responds with “honky, honky.” Chase then trumps all previous slurs with “nigger,” to which Pryor responds: “dead honky.”

The line elicits laughs all around, but also makes clear, at least implicitly that when it comes to racial antilocution, people of color are limited in the repertoire of slurs they can use against whites, and even the ones of which they can avail themselves sound more comic than hateful. The impact of hearing the antiblack slurs in the skit was of a magnitude unparalleled by hearing Pryor say “honky” over and over again.

As a white person I always saw terms like honky or cracker as evidence of how much more potent white racism was than any variation on the theme practiced by the black or brown.

When a group of people has little or no power over you institutionally, they don’t get to define the terms of your existence, they can’t limit your opportunities, and you needn’t worry much about the use of a slur to describe you and yours, since, in all likelihood, the slur is as far as it’s going to go. What are they going to do next: deny you a bank loan? Yeah, right.

So whereas “nigger” was and is a term used by whites to dehumanize blacks, to imply their inferiority, to “put them in their place” if you will, the same cannot be said of honky: after all, you can’t put white people in their place when they own the place to begin with.




To continue article go to link at top....Lee

There are no slurs in no varying degrees when it comes to practicing equality. There's no room for varying degrees in this vulgar display of stupidity.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Jeez...crack a book. History...racism....black studies...psychology...something...crack a book.
Lee

Tell my black neighbors and my black doctor... then tell my black assistant that I hired!! Tell them I'm racist! What a crock of shit!

Then tell me how giving any one group something that the other groups cannot have is a good thing! That's what started slavery! That's what started racism! Tell me how anything but absolutel equality is the way to go!

equality is the only way

Why is it wrong for a white person to say they have a black friend and that if they have one, that they listened to what that black friend had to say?

A black friend once told me that he thought there were some blacks that did not like others to succeed. Am I supposed to ignore him in this debate, and what he said to me, and its effect upon me? Is it that I am white means I can have nothing to say and can't understand, but what about what he told me?

That's my opinion. Similar to the argument we get today about how "illegal immigrants take jobs that Americans don't want."

Who would have been working in those cotton fields in the South if there hadn't been slaves? Poor white people. So, to make the poor white people not be too bothered by the loss of jobs to slaves, they convinced the poor whites that they were inherently superior to the slaves of a different race. And guess what - it worked. If plantation owners could have gotten white people as cheaply as African slaves, and if those poor whites didn't have the right to quit their jobs, we never would have imported slaves from Africa. And if there were domestic labor available today that was cheap and without rights, we wouldn't need illegal immigrants. While the poor whites bicker with the poor blacks and poor Hispanics, the rich get richer! Do you ever notice how the rich are usually not too concerned with race? It's because it's all about money, power and cheap labor, and race is a side-show.

Really sums it up. The biggest racists I know are blue collar whites - they think they are losing out in the Great Job Competition, which is exactly how the capitalist wants it.

but then, through a certain prism, everything is racist if you look hard enough.

is it also racism, however, when the students I tutor don't want to get good grades because that is 'acting white'? yes, it happens.

I don't exactly know how to explain it but only know that it seems to be a product of a social structure of privilege based on race.

There are plenty of Black folks who are outright bigots against White folk - LOTS. Slurs are slurs.

I have always treated everyone the way they deserve... if you are an asshole, you damn betcha I'm going to treat you like one. I raised my kids not to see color... when they were growing up and had all their friends in the house all the time, it looked like the freaking UN around there!

No one deserves to be called names. No one.

1. Have black people as a "group" ever done anything historically to white people to warrant their contempt?

2. Have white people as a "group" ever done anything historically to black people to warrant their contempt?

We don't live for our ancestors! We are all individuals! We are all equal!

You are only furthering a stupid myth that black people are being sat on by whitie. Bullshit. Tell that to my buddy from high school who is now holding political office in one of the largest cities in the US!! Tell that to my black doctor!

Quit telling black people they aren't good enough!!!! Quit telling black people that they don't have a chance!!! Quit telling black people that because their ancestors had a horrific thing brought down upon them that they can't expect to succeed in this life in this period of time!

Inappropriate response.

i'd say.

:hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :loveya:

I'm just sick to death of this conversation.

I have never, ever in my life done anything...

But try to help my brothers and sisters of all color.

Fuck me.

I mean that sincerely!!! Forgive me if your response to Tahiti's greeting of Noiretblu has me somewhat confused. :freak:

out of Whites arguing about who is less racist :eyes:

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
Entweder hab' ich etwas misverstanden oder Du bist ein bißchen durcheinander.

:rofl: :wtf: :rofl: :wtf: :rofl: :wtf: :rofl: :wtf:

Some (including me) focus on the individual morality and regard 'racism' as a moral and mental failing. When others speak of the 'myth' of "reverse racism" they're focusing on the institutional and political ('group') predations. (Much of my career, however, has been invested in eradicating such bigotries in the workplace - a career-limiting focus, I can assure you.)

There's merit to both viewpoints ... but when those who might validly claim that "reverse racism" is a 'myth' (from the institutional/political perspective) then conclude that individuals in the politically unempowered 'group' are then, therefore, immune from the indivdual moral failing, I find that the position has become unanchored from both reason and validity. In effect, it goes full circle and becomes, in itself, a kind of racism (in the individual sense).

And to say no one should ever treat anyone else like that ever again? Instead of belittling the feelings of another group by saying, oh, it's not as bad for you, so you should get over yourself and not worry about it.

What I'm saying is that I would be absolutely heart broken if someone were to call me names because I'm white. I'm saying it's a horrid thing to do, and an even more horrid thing to excuse someone for.

What I'm saying is that I've known a lot of kids of many various colors who were supported as individuals, and many who were not. Many were told they would never get anywhere in life, that they would have to work too hard and they'd never make it, and the prophecy became self-fulfilling.

What I'm saying is that for the past 25 years, I've been the minority in my neighborhood and my kids have been the minority in their schools. I know many highly educated, brilliant and successful people of all races... and I know white people who are dumb as dirt.

No matter how you want to draw the lines, there are good and bad, successful and not, in all groups. Yes, blacks have had to work harder! There was and still is a lot of work to be done! But what I fail to see is how telling people who have worked their lives supporting the good in all peoples, that their pain is not as great, is helping anyone. It surely isn't helping the young black person who is being excused for bad behavior!

It seems to me that some are inclined to find targets here, not for any apparent sense of nurturance, personal development, or amelioration, but for the purposes of donning the costume of self-righteous warrior. It's been called 'vigilantism' and 'witch-hunting' ... but what's in a name? It's been disappointing to me, actually. I just don't think of DU as a place for confronting 'enemies' ... but as a community serving each person's individual growth and building a better understanding of the issues and their complexity. I don't think that's accomplished by using others as grist for one's own mill. People must be an end in themselves, not a means to our own selfish ends.

Hell ... we all have our baggage and demons. I also think we're all fighting our inner demons and working to check our baggage. As far as I'm concerned, there's no more common life-long quest than personal growth and development. I don't think the personal attacks that've increased (imho) on DU are at all helpful ... in any way, shape or form.

or are you commenting in general? i ask because after reading the entire article, it was about much more than the excerpt that was posted here.

Hiya TN!

:hug: :hi:

anti-male bigotry and NOT reverse sexism.

If you want to ignore the institutionalized forms for some reason or another you don't even have half the story -- or problem -- left. And what's the point of that? The only "point" I can think of is letting some people (racists and sexists) off the hook, whether intentionally or not, and for some it IS intentional, believe me. Avowed racists and sexists definitely want to have the "cover" of some bogus "reverse racism" and "reverse sexism" to distract from the much larger and much more damaging to society forms.

:toast:

:blush: :toast:

but perhaps someone else did. i said you were being condescending.

:loveya:

... probably have no idea how much I miss you and Cassandra (and my other friends there) ... even more the more time I spend here in Michigan. (sigh) It's REALLY good to "see" you here.

:loveya:

:loveya: i am so sorry i didn't respond to you in depth...i was drowning in my own sorrow at the time. i hope things are going ok with the family.
:loveya:

:woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo:
:hi::loveya::hi:

:loveya: i have to write you soon. life has been so mundane...i don't have much to report. but...i am feeling like i am on solid ground again, and that's good.
drop me a line sometimes :hi:

Always nice to see one of the oldtimers dropping in. :hi:

:hi: it's oldtimers day, i guess :7

Doesn't mean it's inappropriate.

something you cannot possibly grasp yourself. i don't need you to tell me "i can make it"...i have done just fine with the advice of my parents and their parents and their parents and their parents who lived through the ugliness of america in its racist heyday.

And I applaud your family for doing well with you. All I'm saying is that it's possible and you have proved me right. Thanks.

How do you suppose your life would have turned out had you not such a strong and smart family?

knock if off, please.

Having a conversation? Asking valid questions? Put me on ignore if you don't want to read what I'm saying. I have a right to speak my mind and you have a right not to answer my questions, which you chose not to do. Simple questions that hurt no one and could lead to an understanding, but no. You'd rather have your righteous indignation.

I'm not stupid. Please do not treat me as if I were.

"I wasn't addressing you, now was I," as if noiretblu had erred by entering the conversation without your permission? And then you talk about her "righteous indignation"?

Simple questions that hurt no one and could lead to an understanding, but no.
Seems to me that Karenina asked some simple questions that hurt no one and could lead to an understanding, but you didn't answer those, either ...

That person responded as if I were talking to them and what they said made no sense in the context of the conversation.

because they disagree. you are way out of line to people who are talking a shitload more sense then you are.

And I think she has a perfectly legitimate point, that she probably knows a little something more about being black in America than you do.

why do you try to tell us anything at all, then? We can never understand, so why bother?

How are we to make out the actions of MLK and those others who wanted to be included in what was then only white society?

Aren't blacks individuals? Some want to blend in as an entire society that includes both, others want to segregate themselves. Haven't the latter more in common with the white supremacists than with the liberals?

hello, how'd you manage to miss that? this is not about never understanding-no one saif d that at all. puleeeze.
this is about one close minded white person being condesending towards others and making a fool of themselves.

There are millions of people of both races.

It just seems pointless to me to get on this high horse when someone tries to understand what it might be like. I feel fairly certain it can be described to some extent. I don't know what it's like to be a lot of things, but people who are those things can describe it. I don't know what it would be like to be a teacher, yet teachers can describe it and I can understand it to a certain degree. Things that are only skin deep like race should be even easier to understand.

perhaps if they acknowledged there was a spectrum, but no the poster was claiming no one's life suffers due to racism anymore. the poster is tripping, and making foolish statements based on their feelings and hopesof what its like to be black, not necesarily anyone's reality.
it's a crock , and it;s insulting too.

my parents told us we had to be three times as good to get anywhere in this country. if anything, i would advise my fellow black folks to remember that.

There's now a class warfare that sees no color only social standing and money.

At least your parents tried to get you going toward a good life instead of telling you that you can't/won't have anything because you are black. Giving a child hope, telling him/her that they can succeed if they try very hard is a hell of a lot better than telling them they have no future.

we all have our struggles in this world, but they are not the same. as a black woman with an advanced degree, i can see that i have certain advantages over people who don't have as much education, regardless of race. on the other hand, i still have to deal with racial shit.

at all, with 1/4 the resources of the school across town. go fucking tell them it;s an even playing field.
i've met kindengardeners less naive than you, and sadly it does effect their chances because they'd have to work 3X as hard as your white child. and they learned this long before they set foot in the abomination of a classroom too.
you are walking arond with blinders.

My kids DID go to an inner city school!!! That was the only place they could take the special classes they wanted!

Look at the Long Beach Unified and the Los Angeles Unified School district's pamphlets on magnet schools! My oldest wanted to go to the computer school... so he did... in the heart of a Long Beach ghetto! My second son was a minority in his school too!

You assume much.

you are the one in a bubble assuming me and the two black women (among many others, hnt hint) you were so rude to don;t know what it;s like t be black in america, it is not the same experience you've had with intergration or education. look around and read a bvit, your experience is atypical. not the norm, sorry!

Brillian.

than yours. they are living it, dear. not just looking from the outside thinking,,, hey they're doing just as good as me!
it's a direverse country and we are not where you hope us to be - the even playing field- not yet. in some places, it;s no where near close.
count your blessing you had what you did. it;s a lot rarer than you realize.

50 Years After Brown, Broken Bathrooms and Protests
http://www.arc.org/racewire/040524d_hernandez.html

Reading, Writing, Race and Resegregation: 45 Years After Brown v. Board of Education
http://www.colorlines.com/article.php?ID=107

GW Graduate School of Education and Human Development Dean Discusses Report Showing Schools Still Separate and Unequal 50 Years After BROWN V. BOARD OF EDUCATION
http://www.gwu.edu/~media/pressrelease.cfm?ann_id=12065

California’s Racial “Opportunity Gap”
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:gAqG-5TTqS4J:www.hewlett.org/NR/rdonlyres/596CE54C-E38D-4A0F-8B2D-77222062B227/0/IDEAexecutivesummary.pdf+%22Separate+and+Unequal,+50+Years+after+Brown+%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us


Please just take a look at the findings in "Separate and Unequal 50 Years after Brown" found here in pdf form:
http://justschools.gseis.ucla.edu/research/index.html

:popcorn:

you are! LOL. Jeeze I wish it were so simple.

we are talking about how it is.

That everyone has an equal chance at everything, depending on how hard they work at it?

Are you saying that? That racism and discrimination are now a thing of the past?

You are living in a dream world if you think that what was done to black people in the past has no effect on what is happening in black America today. You are certainly living in a dream world if you think because you have a black doctor that all is coming up roses for black people everywhere. You are living in a dream world if you think that more black men being in prison than being enrolled in college in every state in America isn't a product of what was done to our black ancestors.

I have so much more to say, but I am trying to temper my comments right now.

I think our whole society is racist from top to bottom - but slurs are not about racism, they are about bigotry, and ANYONE can be a bigot.

And this whole shit I find to be insulting - Blacks are not helpless there are plenty of powerful and rich Blacks in the world. You can keep your sympathy frankly.

there is absolutely no connection between centuries of racism and current reality :crazy:

:crazy:

:hi:

Well said noiretblu.
Lee

Hey you!

You are illustrating Mr. Wise's point. Of course you are correct, ANYONE can be a bigot. Rest assured, I save my sympathy and tolerance for those of very advanced age.

which I shall expand slightly.

1. Have black people as a "group" ever done anything historically to white people to warrant their contempt, ill-will or mistrust?

2. Have white people as a "group" ever done anything historically to black people to warrant their contempt, ill-will or mistrust?

This is exactly the same prejudicial attitude that makes white people lock their car doors driving through the 'hood.

Just because white people have historically treated black people badly doesn't mean that black people are justified in being rude to individual white people.

considering the questions and making a reasoned response.

and I think the answer to both questions is a hearty "yes," which goes to prove even further that we have a LONG ways to go before we live in a color blind world.

But just because the answer to both questions is "yes" doesn't give members of either group the right to be racist towards individuals of the other group.

if you're willing? In what ways have you seen these "groups" interact?

The only way that the answers to these questions could be material to this discussion is if the underlying presumption is that some kinds of racism (or "contempt, ill-will or mistrust", in your words) are justified.

I respectfully disagree. Anyone who searches thoroughly enough, can find a historical rationalization for their hate.

MY REQUEST was that you consider and answer two simple questions.

Which is the very essence of racism, sexism, etc.

You can make a generalization that says white > black in terms of the power of the groups, but people do not deal in groups. If some black teenagers are throwing eggs at me, I do not have the rest of white society as a shield (although I did call the cops later - were they more likely to respond because I mentioned the race of the perpetrators?) My new neighbors that I tried to talk to as they sat on their porch playing cards just blew me off and left me standing there like an idiot, even though part of the purpose of my visit was to see if they were registered to vote in their new house. True, it would not have bothered me alot if they called me a honky, but they were quite capable of treating me like crap even without an arsenal of offensive epithets. Although, really 'racist' is a pretty severe epithet which would be used against white people who did the same thing to a black person.

because of racism is 100% bullshit and insulting and a part of White privilege. It's as if Blacks need to be minded and treated with kid gloves because they're so helpless. THAT is *racism* - way more damaging than simple bigotry.

And I agree with you - I have lived in neighborhood where Whites were mistreated and they couldn't call on White society to help them.

wise certainly isn't.

n/t

slurs against African Americans have a historical power that slurs against whites don't.

Racial slurs, regardless or the origin and regardless of the recipient are racial slurs.

One of the differences is that some are overt, while others are covert; neither is appropriate, but the covert are more powerful, for those are the ones rarely challenged, and therfore fuel more racism.

I agree that racial slurs are racial slurs, but it doesn't follow that they are all equal in power or effect.

regardless of the offense.

Every time someone uses a slur, it is not against an individual, it is against a group of people. Historically, minoroites have been the recipients of overt racial slurs, but with equal ferocity those being afflicted have used the same rationale to belittle their afflictors, but covertly. The opposite has come about because conditions have changed, and now, forms of slurs are used overtly, while the others have become covert. This type of stuff, feeds itself.

The only way i figure it can stop, is for people to understand that slurs are intolerable, regardless of source or direction. The road to stopping all of this is long and filled w/troubles, racism, just as sexism is deeprooted.

There may be a day when we can get past this...but it is going to take some very serious work...:)

I think we're onto something!!! ;-)

Until that time, you are a fucking racist. You just get to pretend thAT YOU'RE NOT. hAVE FUN WITH THAT.

What Kind of Card is Race?
The Absurdity (and Consistency) of White Denial
by Tim Wise

April 26, 2006

Recently, I was asked by someone in the audience of one of my speeches, whether or not I believed that racism--though certainly a problem--might also be something conjured up by people of color in situations where the charge was inappropriate. In other words, did I believe that occasionally folks play the so-called race card, as a ploy to gain sympathy or detract from their own shortcomings? In the process of his query, the questioner made his own opinion all too clear (an unambiguous yes), and in that, he was not alone, as indicated by the reaction of others in the crowd, as well as survey data confirming that the belief in black malingering about racism is nothing if not ubiquitous.

It's a question I'm asked often, especially when there are several high-profile news events transpiring, in which race informs part of the narrative. Now is one of those times, as a few recent incidents demonstrate: Is racism, for example, implicated in the alleged rape of a young black woman by white members of the Duke University lacrosse team? Was racism implicated in Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney's recent confrontation with a member of the Capitol police? Or is racism involved in the ongoing investigation into whether or not Barry Bonds--as he is poised to eclipse white slugger Babe Ruth on the all-time home run list--might have used steroids to enhance his performance?*

Although the matter is open to debate in any or all of these cases, white folks have been quick to accuse blacks who answer in the affirmative of playing the race card, as if their conclusions have been reached not because of careful consideration of the facts as they see them, but rather, because of some irrational (even borderline paranoid) tendency to see racism everywhere. So too, discussions over immigration, "terrorist" profiling, and Katrina and its aftermath often turn on issues of race, and so give rise to the charge that as regards these subjects, people of color are "overreacting" when they allege racism in one or another circumstance.

Asked about the tendency for people of color to play the "race card," I responded as I always do: First, by noting that the regularity with which whites respond to charges of racism by calling said charges a ploy, suggests that the race card is, at best, equivalent to the two of diamonds. In other words, it's not much of a card to play, calling into question why anyone would play it (as if it were really going to get them somewhere). Secondly, I pointed out that white reluctance to acknowledge racism isn't new, and it isn't something that manifests only in situations where the racial aspect of an incident is arguable. Fact is, whites have always doubted claims of racism at the time they were being made, no matter how strong the evidence, as will be seen below. Finally, I concluded by suggesting that whatever "card" claims of racism may prove to be for the black and brown, the denial card is far and away the trump, and whites play it regularly: a subject to which we will return.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=10157

K&R

Racism involves a lot more than merely throwing slurs around it involves opression, and minority groups have never been in a position that they are able to oppress whites because whites have always had more power. The only way that a minority group could ever become racist is if they were able to take over the power structure and oppress the majority, and that is not going to happen any time soon. I really don't like focusing on the slurs, because that confuses people and makes them think that racism is all about slurs when it really goes much deeper than that. Minorities have a more difficult time finding jobs, and the jobs they do find tend to pay less. They are more likely to be pulled over for traffic violations, and they are more likely to get long criminal sentences than whites are for the same type of crimes. Heavily minority neighborhoods do not have as good of schools, they do not have the same quality of health care, the list could go on and on.

Whites clearly have more power than minority groups do, and racism is ultimately more about power than it is about words.

I'd love to get rich on the backs of poor minorities. How can I accomplish this?

Because if you are white you do have a better chance of getting a job you apply for than a black person does. You are less likely to get pulled over for a traffic violation. You are more likely to get into college. These are all facts that have been proven over and over again in many different studies. You may not see the privilege now, but if you were a minority you would be treated differently.

On edit: By the way I am white too, I have the same type of privileges you have.

I've read more studies than anyone should have to. I wrote my undergraduate thesis on the effects of early-childhood language barriers on African-American high-school graduation rates.

Opportunities that I did... and many of them have much better jobs/homes/cars than I do too! Some are better off, some are worse off... but there are lesser and greater in all races of my graduating HS class.

Equality is the way. To keep telling people they can't/don't/won't is a horrible thing to do!

Read a genuine peer-reviewed study and I think you will see a much broader picture, when you use self-selected samples you miss the big picture.

Quit telling them they are anything but equal!

We cannot get past all this bullshit we were brought up with until someone takes a stand and says that blacks can have what they aspire to have!

Kids need to grow up knowing the world is their oyster or they will never succeed. I don't care what color their skin is.

Mine isn't the only racially diverse neighborhood around and I've read plenty on the subject. You can't believe everything you read either. Studies suffer from crap in/crap out syndrome and most are narrow samples!

When you tell a black person it's ok to issue racial slurs to whites because they've been on the receiving end so long, you are only trying to make two wrongs into a right.

Quit with the strawmen arguments, and quit implying I am a racist because I know what the studies say. And it is YOUR sample that is a narrow sample the studies I looked at use information from the census, a much bigger sample than a few you went to school with.

On edit: I do view blacks as equal I simply realize the facts that society does not treat them equally. And most blacks would agree with me on that.

What the hell would you call that??

I'm saying they can, that I've seen it with my own eyes. I've seen it in NYC, LA, Detroit.

Strawman my ass.

Give the black man a break and admit he has the mind and the ability! That's all it takes. It's been done.

What does being more likely to pulled over for a minor traffic violation have to do with mind and ability? It doesn't it has to do with racism. I don't pretend that we don't live in a racist society, because we do. To deny it is not going to help bring about equality.

On edit: And I am NOT suggesting blacks can't do as well as others, I am suggesting they are treated differently than others. There is a huge difference, and yes you are using strawmen.

That is what I'm talking about.

You can't get rid of racism until it is gone from every race. And you can't have equality as long as you accentuate the negative instead of getting on with the business of treating everyone equal.

You can fight racism without giving those who have suffered racism the "right" to levee racism on another! That is ignorant.

You weren't talking about racial slurs, you told me I didn't think blacks were good enough when I never said any such thing.

You lied about me and I am not going to just let you change the topic without calling you out on your smear.

I'm redirecting to the OP, which is what I've been talking about!

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Here: "Opportunities that I did... and many of them have much better jobs/homes/cars than I do too! Some are better off, some are worse off... but there are lesser and greater in all races of my graduating HS class.

Equality is the way. To keep telling people they can't/don't/won't is a horrible thing to do!"

And you told me I missed the big picture... I'm saying that you can't continue to hold people back by telling them they don't have a chance... and you told me I didn't see the big picture.

If I misunderstood you, I apologize.

Still, you can't rely on studies that don't have a sample group that's NOT like the group of your focus. All experiments and studies need a control group. Otherwise, you have nothing to compare.

So who is the control group in the study of your neighbors?

Not that they were compared with other like studies using other demographics.

with desent teachers and afterscholl programs. and communitites that are protected and supported equally by out fed and local govts.
in short, there's a lot ot be done.

How do you explain to a child that has not learned to be racist that it's ok for a black man to call him a name but it's not ok for him to call a name too?

Allowing whites to call names is wrong... count them, two wrongs.

and whoever said that the two wrongs you've identified make a "right"?

The OP pointed out that slurs used against whites by African Americans don't carry the same cultural or personal weight and power as the myriad of slurs used against African Americans. I don't see anyone encouraging anybody to call other people names.

And DAMMIT! Don't you know you're supposed to get REAL MAD in these kinds of threads, or, even better, start throwing around red herrings and straw!!!!!!1111!!

:hi:

I'm series!!1!

:hi:

Abhor racism and have been raised not to see color. To me and my children, someone calling a name is devistating. It would hurt me deeply!

Just because you think it's not as bad, doesn't mean it isn't and it doesn't mean it's a good thing to approve of.

it's true that more white people don't harbor blatantly racist views, but it not true that all whites don't, regardless of age. there are many people who were alive to experience jim crow, as the chosen ones, and the outcasts. there are young people being raised as racists as i type this.
there is much more work to be done.

of course they can do as well. But they have to fight against a racist society to do it. It is harder.

It's like the quote about Bush - he was born on third base and thinks he hit a triple. You and I were born at home plate or on first base, and black people were born waiting to get a chance to bat.

Giving blacks the ok to use racial slurs against whites? That is the topic of conversation in the OP.

You can't make one group "more equal" by making another group "less equal".

The point is that it doesn't hurt white people to be called slurs the same way it hurts black people because overall in our society the power is with us.

Affirmative action is about leveling the playing field. The myth is that without it, there is equality. The truth is that without affirmative action, in this country we have a very definite negative action, otherwise known as "last hired, first fired".

If you give black people the ok to hurl slurs to others, you are only hurting the black people.

No one should ever call another a name, slur or otherwise. It's childish.

I never said one word about affirmative action. Your strawman argument has no bearing to a conversation about racial slurs.

what we're saying is that it doesn't hurt us as much because the society power we have isn't behind those slurs.

You don't have a right to say how much something would hurt others. And you have no right to say it's ok for one group to call another names, white to black or black to white. It's wrong. Period. It's childish and stupid to call people names. Period.

and wrong. In either case.

But there is no way, no matter how much it hurts you, that it hurts you to be called "whitey" or whatever as much as it hurts black people to be called "the n word".

I've had many, many black children in my life and I've treated them every bit as well as I have my own children. Whether it was when I was Cub Master, or when I was tutoring, or babysitting, all in a neighborhood where I was the fucking minority!!!! It would rip my fucking heart out and you have no right to even judge what my feelings would be!!!

you have no idea what power that word has - so much that in polite society it isn't even written out or spoken.

And you're playing the martyr. Doesn't make anything so.

You have no idea what my feelings are. No idea whatsoever.

I have yet to see a study in which all other factors are identical--that is, with black and white children growing up in the same environments, speaking the same dialects, with the same parental attitudes, etc., etc. As it stands, the studies suggest institutional racism may be a problem. They may also suggest other, more cultural factors (one of which--the disconnect between Standard American English and African-American Vernacular English--I spent considerable time studying) may be a problem.

In a society which was a long history of racism we are not going to get all other factors identical because our society is not equal and blacks don't start out with the same privileges whites do.

You're suggesting that poor whites are intrinsically more advantaged than upper-class blacks? I've got a arm's length of studies that would disagree with you there.

You're not going to get all other factors identical in any study large enough to be useful, yes. So what you're saying, then, is that you cannot prove that it is skin color that is the principal issue, and not cultural factors.

I believe the primary reason African-American children do poorly in high school is that they simply do not give a fuck, to put it bluntly. Their attitudes towards education (and their participation in extracurriculars) is measurably worse than their white peers, and that alone can account for the discrepancy. The difference is a full standard deviation, by the way.

I believe that attitude is cultivated as far back as Kindergarten, when they're first introduced to schooling. Black kids, speaking AAVE, do far worse on early-childhood language assessments: a full standard deviation worse. Due to syntactic differences between the dialects, they are less likely to be able to fully participate in classroom. Teachers give more attention to students who they see performing better; this is provable. Teacher attention directly impacts early-childhood academic attitude and performance; this is provable. Kindergarten success carries directly into fourth-grade success; this is provable. Middle-school success translates into middle-school attitudes towards education, which carries into high school.

Is this the whole story? Of course not. And it's a somewhat tenuous link at best; more studies linking AAVE (regardless of race) to academic performance would be necessary. But it's a bit of the story, IMO, and one that has nothing to do with institutionalized white power.

Blacks are far more likely to live in poverty than whites, that is a fact that has been proven many times over. I have a degree in Sociology, I have studied these issues thoroughly. I don't think you will find very many black people who will dispute what I am saying. There is racism in this society, and to deny it will not make it go away.

Try re-reading what I wrote. And let's not compare degrees. I have a degree in linguistics with a specialization in sociolinguistics, and I'm in grad school now; I'm not uneducated on the matter.

In your subject line you called me a racist and then you said blacks "simply do not give a fuck" about education. I don't care what your degree is in, that type of statement is not an educated opinion.

But:
1. Claiming that a black kid from an upper-class background is less likely to succeed than a poor white kid is both racist and incorrect.

2. African-American high-school attitudes towards education are demonstrably worse than Caucasian high-school attitudes towards education. If you want to hold to studies, you gotta take the pleasant with the unpleasant. Here, for your enjoyment:

Lisella, Linda N. “Extracurricular participation and academic achievement in minority students in urban schools.” The Urban Review, Vol. 28, No. 1, pp. 63-80

Ford, Donna Y. “Perceptions and Attitudes of Black Students toward School Achievement, and Other Educational Variables.” Child Development, Vol. 67, No. 3, pp. 1141-1152.

If you refuse to acknowledge facts that you find unpleasant, you're not doing your degree justice.

"1. Claiming that a black kid from an upper-class background is less likely to succeed than a poor white kid is both racist and incorrect."

Where did I suggest otherwise? You pulled that out of thin air, I was talking about statistics between whites and blacks, and you just threw the words "upper-class" and "poor" in on your own. You claimed I said something that I never said and then you called me a racist.

And for your information I have read about education and minorities, and I will tell you that the reasons blacks don't tend to perform as well in schools is a lot more complicated than simply that they "don't give a fuck". I highly doubt those studies you cite would say otherwise.

it's only one small piece of the problem--but, at the same time, a very real piece of the problem. You may find the language I used appallingly harsh, and I'm sorry if I offended you. However, I stand by my statement. African-American kids have far more negative attitudes towards education than white kids do, and that is extremely important.

And you did indeed claim that it would be impossible to put blacks and whites on equal footings (skin color aside), which is indeed racist. It's quite possible, and happens all the time.

I suggested that in order to do a valid study you can not create equal footing where there is none. As a result of centuries of racism blacks in general do not start out with the same opportunities that whites do. They do not tend to have as good of an economic situation, they do not tend to have as good of schools, they do not tend to have as high of a quality of healthcare, and they are viewed with suspicion by many in our society. That is why they can not do a study where all else is equal, because our society is not equal.

Don't call me a racist.

it would not be impossible to create a valid study with equal footing. There are numerous middle-class black families in America. Comparing their children's performance with the average performance of their neighbors (at the same schools) would be entirely possible. (I haven't seen such a study, so if you've come across one, please PM me; I'd honestly love to read one.) If you're claiming that there are insurmountable intrinsic differences between individual blacks and whites, then that is indeed racist. If not, then we have misunderstood each other.

That is key, the differences I brought up in all of my posts are differences in the way people are treated by society. If we did not have a racist society we would not see these differences I don't think, but because of racism there are major differences in the opportunities offered to black than there are in the opportunities offered to whites.

Valid study after valid study has shown that black people don't get the same opportunities.

The EXACT same job application with an African American name is less likely to be accepted than a white sounding name.

A black kid in the same school, in the same class, with the same teacher is more likely to be punished harshly for the same behaviour as a white kid. Regardless of economic status.

But I'm sure it exists. Coming from a poor white family in a poor mixed race neighborhood; I was hassled by the cops on more than one occasion; just like my black friends.

Now I made it out, and got a degree (I'm still paying every dime for college because I was not eligible for most aid being a white male despite good grades and high SAT scores) and I have a good job.

I got an entry level job working with guess who, four black folks and I was passed over for a promotion three times (in favor of my well deserving black colleagues) before I left for a new job elsewhere.

Ten years and countless 13 hour days later, I make 6 times what my parents ever did raising three of us in rural NC. I am helping them out now to be sure. but I'll be honest, my boss is an African American and SHE earns double what I do.

Being in IT, most of my colleagues are Indian or Chinese, and they earn what I do. Maybe it's the nature of my business that my workplace is more diverse than average america.

BTW, I think that it's not about race anymore, it's more about income level and socio-economic status. Sure a lot of whites have better positions in this ladder, but to be honest coming from the bottom portion of it, I have no doubt that poor whites whose parents have little education have no more privilege in this world that poor blacks.

My well off friends got jobs out of college making twice what I did by getting jobs through their parents friends. I didn't have that privilege, and had to start out lower on the scale and wait for my chance, but it was worth every moment to get to where I am today.

but it is NOT defined by the epithets available to either side.

Hatred based on race is ugly and wrong, no matter who exhibits it.

Do you think it's wise to give any group the ok to do something prohibited to the other groups?

I believe in equality. We can't have equality until all people are treated equally... today. Not 100 years ago... not 40 years ago... today.

is "giving/allowing" black people "the OK" to run amok throughout the land doing something whites are prohibited from doing? N.B. My question to you is WHO, not WHAT.

"reverse racism" Seriously, when did that term come around?

Sounds like a right wing MAJOR talking point to this white male.

I cannot believe the crap I am reading on DU about this today.

Race relations are tense all around, and blacks can be just as racist as whites.

Don't even try to pretend that blacks are incapable of being racist.

I don't think it is a RW term. It is pretty established as a description for the situation when the minority discriminates against the majority. It happens. Human nature is human nature.

I personally belong to a couple of minorities and I'm guilty of it as well.

sexist, racist jerks -- just couldn't STAND there being true equality, so once minorities and women started edging up closer to equality, they freaked and started the ridiculous notion that THEIR equality was being diminished by the super-equality of women and minorities.

Big lotta shit.

And if you are a member of a couple of minorities, I'd strongly suggest you educate yourself better on the matter of racism -- and sexism.

and I'll just have to say I never heard of it in a negative sort of way. Here's a good link (Have no idea what the source is...seems like it is a public school, maybe a website for a social studies class) that mirrors what my impression has always been.

http://www.howard-winn.k12.ia.us/projects/ind_stdy05/honors2/diversity/racial.html


As for educating myself on racism and sexism, everyone can use education. I've encountered plenty of the former in my six decades.. and maybe more of my share of the latter.

Thanks for replying.

Rather than discriminating against individuals based on race, it was giving them benefits that they, as individuals, didn't deserve regardless of race. Giving women the right to enter a door first, giving jobs to (discriminated against race) because they were that race rather than because they were best for the job. I know of white women who dated black men exclusively so they could prove they weren't racist. That is what I thought reverse racism was. Still racism, still prejudging people.

I learned another usage of the term today.

That on a progressive site there are truly some who just don't get it. Blacks have no power to cause us harm. We do have power and we do cause and have caused, great harm to black people and others of color. WE wield the power. There is an unequal field to start with. Why is that complicated.
Lee

By saying that Blacks have no power, you are, in fact, putting them in their place. "White guilt" helps make Whites feel better about their belief that Black are inferior and have no power.

And that applies to your posts upthread as well. BULLSHIT rightwing talking points which IMO have NO place at DU.

otherwise your pity is of no interest to me. I don't need it or want it so tell the owners to ban me to the "right-wing" websites if you want. I believe in equality and I sure as hell don't want anything from guilty Whites.

hide their racism behind it.

I see a lot of racism here at DU (and sexism and homophobia and classism), but I'm not used to seeing quite so many ultra-racist rightwing talking points strewn about as if they have any validity.

How insightful of you...<sarcasm> If you are white and you don't see this as true, maybe Ann Coulter's site would be more to your liking.
White people have a lot to feel guilty about. Ask a black person.
Lee

Seriously. What have I done?

we are all responsible for the mess that was left after centuries of inequity...white. black, brown, yellow, red and everything in between. that's what mainstream american culture shirks from: responsibility. if katrina didn't prove that, i don't know what will.

it's about recognizing that in some ways we are privileged in our society simply for being white.

No one should feel guilty for something they didn't do. This "white guilt" is a cover for racism imo.

I've never met anyone who felt guilty for being white.

So a couple days ago, while I was standing around waiting for the red line to come, a black guy walked right through me, muttering "outta my way, white boy." When can I smite him with my white-man magic power? Do I grow into it? Or can I get it at my local country club? I mean, you say that I've caused great harm to all black people, but, hell, I couldn't even smite one rude jackass on the CTA. Am I a failure as a white male?

You want to wallow in guilt and shame instead of trying to help someone.

That's sad... really, really sad.

You really think you are better than blacks, don't you! Until you and others like you start thinking in terms of equality, we will never advance as a society.

I think you're speaking on a larger scale systematic form of racism Madspirit,and you're right.I think others might be seeing this on a more one on one personal level,and on that level reverse racism would be just as bad.

It seems like you're both talking about the same thing but from different angles. :shrug:

Many own businesses, work as bosses, own record companies, etc and so on.

People with power can and do use it wrongly at times towards others - based on any number of reasons (skin color, weight, gender, and so on).

You have power in daily transactions - to wit, the local UDF where I shop (not much longer, moving in a week) is staffed by mostly black people and a few of them simply don't like white people. And yeah, I know that first hand as my niece worked there and was treated poorly until she left (the mgr then hired her black friend who hung out there a lot). My niece is a kick ass worker - but when she heard the mgr lady say 'this is a black store in a black hood and whites should be working in Dublin' she had had enough. Ironically, my niece moved up near dublin and now works at a gas station there.

My brother still goes in there once a week and one lady will be talking up a storm to many customers but won't even look at him, say hello, etc. She grabs things scans em, slams in a bag and does not even say thank you but stares at him waiting on him to leave.

Me - I got no problems there myself and know most all the employees on a first name basis (night crew 2nd/3rd). I did ask one of the girls one night about the whole situation when she asked me how my niece was doing, and she simply said 'mgr X don't like white folks cause her boyfriend left her for a blonde' (I go there at night mostly so don't see the same people my brother does as much).

Now here we have people with power over daily transactions who can make you feel welcome in their store, or not.

Either way - it is wrong to judge and treat people based on a great number of things, and any group can be racist towards another group if they hold power over a situation you find yourself in.

Is it a bigger problem on a larger scale for blacks than whites? Yep. But saying it cannot happen either direction is wrong because power is not a solid block owned by any one group - especially on a local level.

:shrug:

I think all of them are offensive.

This guy needs to re-examine the basis of his thesis. I understand completely what he's saying about power and who has it, but it's no excuse to be rude.

He's saying those words don't have the same level of offense as racist words directed towards blacks.

When a group of people has little or no power over you institutionally, they don’t get to define the terms of your existence, they can’t limit your opportunities, and you needn’t worry much about the use of a slur to describe you and yours, since, in all likelihood, the slur is as far as it’s going to go. What are they going to do next: deny you a bank loan? Yeah, right.

That's precisely true, but it doesn't follow that discrimination can't happen against a group that's a power majority in society at large. We don't exist entirely in society-at-large, we exist in many sub-societies, and there can be (and are) instances where a power minority has power in a sub-society and subsequently does act to limit the opportunity of a person outside the dominant group. These cases are no where near as common as conservatives like to claim, and affirmative action doesn't meet the definition, but they nonetheless exist.

A lot of people, even at DU, don't get it. This lays it out so clearly.

Edit to add: Aww dammit. I just went back and read the comments since I posted this. My faith in people was apparently misplaced.

cause a group of black kids called her cracker or honky??? NO YOU SAY...THE WORDS THEREFOR ARE INEFFECTUAL!

for the same reason. I grew up in a mixed-race neighborhood in the south suburbs of Chicago. If you're going to claim that "cracker" isn't a slur, that's a bad argument.

...and I gather you didn't actually read the article.
...and stop yelling.
Lee

Thank you for your very good information and wise words about this on DU today.

"you can't put white people in their place when they own the place to begin with"...and white people STILL own it.

Taking the pups for a walk now, breathing deeply.

All of his articles and essays hit the nail on the head and usually make people who can't deal with their racism very very uncomfortable.

His book is outstanding as well: "White Like Me"

:thumbsup:

Racist Economics

The economy consists of an elite and everyone else. At times 'everyone else' has been stronger relative to the elite, at times weaker. The elite by definition has power over the rest. But the economy is not so simple-- there are some who are more elite and have more power, some who are less. Economic power is a combination of wealth, income, status and occupation, access to education and health care, connections, and geographic and social mobility. These in turn translate into political power, organization, access to media, business and government. A great deal of the damage done by racism is done through the economic system. People of colour are denied economic power, here and in many places in the world.

Having economic power or elite status is being in an exclusive club. How important is race in deciding who gets into this club? Some examples: blacks search for work longer and often more aggressively than whites and are 36-44% less likely to be hired for jobs in mostly white suburbs even when they are just as qualified. White males with a high school diploma are as likely to have a job and earn as much as black males with college degrees. When controlling for age, experience, and other relative factors, blacks are paid at least 10% less than whites. (Alice O' Connor, Chris Tilly and Lawrence Bobo, eds. 1999. The Multi-City Study of Urban Inequality, "Urban Inequality: Evidence from Four Cities." NY: Russell Sage Foundation.) 2% of lawyers and less than 1% of partners in law firms were black, according to a 1987 survey in the National Law Journal. A 1988 survey of Public Advocates, Inc. showed that fewer than 0.25% of partners in the US's biggest accounting firms were black (37 out of 20 000 surveyed). (cited in Farai Chideya, 1995. Don't Believe the Hype. New York: Penguin Books). On average, African Americans have only one-tenth the net worth that white Americans do. (also in Chideya, 1995).

People with power do not give it away out of morality or a sense of justice. Instead they use the means at their disposal to maintain and extend their power. They hand out jobs and positions in society, and so have the power to discriminate based on race (and sex) and create the kind of pyramid they want. The consequences for the economy are these: not only does racism cause the economy to be stratified as it is, and place people of colour at the bottom of the economic pyramid in terms of occupation, empowerment, income, and wealth. Racism also splits the 'everyone else' into racial groups with different interests, and helps elites maintain their economic power against a divided opposition.

We have a society divided by class: what I would call two classes of winners (owners and managers) and one class of losers (workers, including the unemployed)-- others might cut this finer, others rougher. Most of the winners are white, but most white people aren't winners, at least in the economy. But what we also have is a society divided by race-- where the upper caste is white, and all whites are racial winners-- even those who are economic losers. This scheme of things suits white economic elites-- who create and maintain the scheme by discrimination-- just fine. Racial privilege, in terms of status, prestige, and separation, is much cheaper for them to give out than economic justice, full employment at empowering work, and equality.

http://www.zmag.org/racewatch/znet_race_instructional3.htm

one cultivated and perpetuated by the usual suspects. that it has become a rally cry of sorts is really not surprising. one thing the reverse racism myth did effectively was to stifle and trivialize the national dialogue on institutional racism.

It's a way that people can do the same things and pretend they're all enlightened. As is "color blind".

So, in Japan (historically and today) the acts perpetrated against Koreans, Chinese, Indonesians, Filipinos was that racism or not or something else?

The Janjaweed in Sudan are killing black Africans (including muslims) are they racist?

Turkish treatment of Greeks, Slavs and other groups under their control for 600 or so years?


Also what is a white person? Can you classify a person white by the way they look or does it have to be genetic? If it turns out that Thomas Jefferson has middle eastern heritage was he white? And was he a racist for having slaves?

<More on Jefferson> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6332545.stm

described the division between northern and southern italy as recism. he also said we needed a better (perhaps less loaded) word to describe the thing itself. he suggested "dominant cultural paradigm."

they hinted at the whole mythology of the southern italians being more brutal people and less refined. of course they were obstensibly talking of the cuisine, it was at a party. ....

good to see you, noir! hope things are good for you.

when i was at the american university of rome. the north/south division was a big deal back then...the late 70's.
nice to see you...i am doing well. thanks for asking :hi:

I was thinking about you earlier this week. Can't recall the conversation which made me think of you and wonder how you were doing. Then I clicked a "Milestone" post in Lounge (geez, I rarely go to the lounge, let alone look at that post) - and there it was - you had crossed 15K - so I knew that while I don't think that we have crossed paths or posts in probably a couple of years... that you were still posting. So natch, I had to do a search and find you.

I hope that you are still reading this thread and see this post.

:loveya: and thinking about you!

Hope all is well with you.

salin

gosh...i forgot how many wonderful friends i have here :hi:
it's been a tough couple of years with sis and dad passing within fours month of each other, but we just got thru the 1st year anniversary of sis' death, and things are starting to feel ok again.
still it's been hard...
heard from teena...is she still here?
i need to hang out here more often :7
thanks for thinking of me.
:loveya:

How hard-hitting two significant losses within four months. :cry:

Glad to hear that the period after the anniversary is heralding a touch of "okayness" for you.

I spoke with Teena this weekend. I know that she would really enjoy to connect with you. She is not still here at DU. Though in spirit, she continues to be here.

How cool is that - that our conversations that happened several years ago - still resonate and sit in the memory (along with fondness of the poster - on an anonymous message board no less.) Let me warn you that this place is as maddening as it always has been, but there are still some incredible and memorable people here to cross paths with.

For what it is worth, your words (as all we have on a message board) have made an impression on me, and stayed with me *for years*. I hope that we cross paths again, and more frequently.

Glad to see you tonight,

salin

:loveya:

no doubt about that. i'll drop you a pm this week so i can get in touch with teena. i am off to the "second-chance" prom...a benefit for the AIDS ride. i didn't go to my prom, so this should be interesting :loveya: great to see you.
and thanks for the condolences.

is more like differences in America between North and South. Northern Italy has always been industrialized, whereas southern Italy was largely rural and poor. Also, there are dialect and language differences. As I'm sure you are aware, Italy hasn't been a unified country all that long historically.

In the UK there is all sorts of different ideas on Scottland, Ireland, and Wales. Some of them border on prejudice, some of them somewhat true. Scottish/Irish culture is usually considered to be crude/strong by the English, hence you get things like "Irish Breakfast Tea", which refers more to the strength/character of the tea more than the exact origin, and you can see the trend carried out in just about everything from pipe tobacco to jam.

The worst reverse racism slur is "whitey". That is when black kids call other black kids whitey when they get good grades and accomplish something. You know, all those things that Martin Luther King wanted them to do ... integrate into American society.

what society are they a part of now?

Are you an expert on Martin Luther King and what he wanted? Please read this: http://www.tolerance.org/news/article_tol.jsp?id=687

Look, I grew up in South Holland, IL and went to Thornwood high school. We were over 75% black, and yeah, the more academically-oriented kids were indeed occasionally derided for "acting white." That's harmful black-perpetuated racism, and any discussion of minority education ought to include harmful attitudes among both the white and black community.

Was King a counter-culture rebel? Or was he an advocate for holding your head up high, dressing right, talking right and demanding the rights that come with those things? Martin Luther King was NOT a Black Panther. I can respect that point of view as well. But yeah, I really DO think that King was an advocate cultural integration in American Society in the same sense that the various European ethnicities (Irish, Italian, etc..) integrated.

I don't think King would care much for the calling women hos. I don't think he would approve of using the word nigger as a respectful salutation. I don't think he would be for the popular harassment of black children who achieved in their schoolwork. I don't believe that Dr. King would approve of the harassment of kids for using good diction that is easily understood and hence makes it easier for them to land jobs.

I believe that King would in general be for those things that would advance the well being of Black Americans. And I believe that he would be 100% AGAINST the destructive gangster culture that has emerged in the past few decades.

no one who is interested in educating herself is going to be deterred by some ignoramus. do white people have this "problem" too?

edited for grammar :blush:

and was exposed to a host of peer pressure. family is the key, and positive forms of peer pressure.

I wish all children were lucky enough to have the positive family pressure that you and I have enjoyed. It really means everything to a child's future.

It's an American thing. I am a blue-eyed (augmented) blonde, and as I was growing up in a nearly all-white suburb (we had ONE black family), the kids who were really smart and let it show were only one step above the special education students in social acceptability. The other students didn't tell us we were "acting white" (we were white) but we had to deal with "Oh, you're so SMAAAART" said in a sneering tone, not being invited to parties, being the butts of practical jokes, that kind of thing. I knew kids who purposely played dumb to fit in.

It's one of America's greatest flaws, and it afflicts all races.

Anti-intellectualism is an American thing, certainly, and the nation pays the price for it every day we haven't issued pollution standards or increased stem-cell funding. And, unfortunately, anti-educational attitudes are even more prevalent among the African-American student body than among the Caucasian student body (I linked to two peer-reviewed studies demonstrating this in a subthread above). This, of course, is most likely due to a number of factors--many of which are undeniably out of the students' hands--but it is a very real phenomenon.

This is true. Disparagement of academic achievement is by no means unique to black folk. But I will note that smart white kids are called "nerds". They aren't re-assigned to membership in another race of people. This is not a criticism so much as it is an observation when it comes to "reverse racism".

If you were a guy when I went to school, it wasn't bad at all to be a white nerd kid. Even the jocks or preps liked you if you were nice enough. You didn't necessarily get invited to parties, but I don't recall anybody teasing me for being in honors classes, and I had a few friends that weren't nerds.

1. It ignores the prevalent problem of white kids who ridicule smart white kids. It's always seemed to me that poor and minority families put higher value on education.

2. Worse, it blames the victim. The reason black schools are failing is because they tease each other, apparently.

It's right up there with blaming black men for being bad fathers.

and i, for two, am sick of hearing it repeated as gospel.

that poor urban families place a higher value on education than suburbanites, you are flying in the face of every single study ever conducted on educational attitudes.

was an affluent suburb.

Suburbanites value *schooling* as a road to job security. They don't value *education* in the sense of loving learning.


In any case, you could say the same thing about poor rural whites as about inner city blacks. Rural Oregon is the land of "our kids don't need to know all that stuff." It's the culture of poverty, not the culture of race.