How many people here think tobacco should be outlawed?

It has no positive use at all. It addicts people. It kills the users. It kills people near the users. It is a monstrous drain on our health resources, and resources in general.
It is actually poison.

I've seen Jonesing smokers paw through the garbage at 3 AM looking for a smokeable butt. It's not pretty.

Banning addictive substances never works no matter how much we don't like them.

Setting out rules for their use works a lot better.

uses, it just need to be made LESS potent, I've read that it is too strong to use as an anti-cancer med BUT scientists are trying to make a synthetic version. I think elements of the herb could be used as an appetite suppressant, like opium/morphine/codeine, tobacco has many threads in it that may be helpful, not just to Humans but to the rest of Life.

Flowering tobacco is quite beautiful, it opens in the evening, is native to America & feeds native bumble bees & other beneficial insects.

fast food does not pollute other people's air with foul, annoying, and toxic fumes.

You havent been around me after eating at Taco Bell.

And those foul, annoying and toxic fumes even come from cars being driven by self-appointed tobacco monitors. :eyes:

10x worse than a diesel

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/12481.php

"Three filter cigarettes were then lit up sequentially, and left smouldering for a further 30 minutes. The nicotine and tar content of each cigarette was 1 mg and 11.2 mg, respectively."

A. Cigarettes do not "smolder" for 30 minutes.
B. The garage was aired out for 30 minutes for the car, but not for the cigarettes.

Not very accurate science.

:rofl:

Gawd -- some people never got over the fact that they weren't made hall monitors in grade school... :rofl: :rofl:

:crazy:

What was the ratio -- 200 to one? :rofl:

Toxic waste, in fact, if you've ever seen the grease dumpster out back like I have.

Then there are issues with the factory farms that supply their food and the associated pollution.

soda, fast food - all those "fragrances" from Glade, Fabreeze, detergents that smell like a combination of PineSol and cheap perfume, dryer sheets, and most household cleaning products.

There's so much shit out there advertised as making our lives better - when in reality it makes us sick.

Only kidding

tobacco is also considered sacred in many Native American religions.

This idea is among some of the most stupid I've ever seen on this board...

Nicotine is more addictive than heroin....loved ones and friends who smoke will do anything to get cigarettes.

This country will get very fucking ugly very quickly.

The cravings are worse with Tobacco

The withdrawals are worse with Opiates (incl. Heroin)

Make of that what you will.

Let's step back from the idea that prohibition just makes matters worse - what gives the government the right to make this illegal?

I don't smoke, but posts like this make me want to smoke just to blow it into your face.

While we're at it lets ban ammonia, chlorine, lye, and any chemicals that can't be guzzled by a 3 year old...

Jeez...

:eyes:

ON EDIT: THIS is why the Unrec feature was invented!

:rofl:

...I'm thinking that this post is him proving a point about the whole "nanny state" ideal as it applies to other things that certain folks around here would very much approve of banning. I'll let Tim speak for himself on this, of course, as I could be wrong.

don't they have some abortion provider they need to protest, too?

It's fucking insane what people who call themselves "liberal" or "progressive" can allow into their skulls.

:puke:

You do know that the "nanny state" concept is pure right-wing propaganda, right?

Are you a "libertarian," by any chance?

Pro Freedom

Pro Socialism

Pro Drugs

Pro Social Liberties

Anti Fascist

Pro Gun

Pro Education

Pro Tax

Pro Ficient!

Oh, and seriously - now that healthcare is on the horizion (which is awesome) there are also those who would rather ban things than pay the costs to treat any maladies that accompany that choice.

I'm all in favor of health care for smokers, obese, etc. How any "progressive" could want to deny those groups health care is beyond me.

At the same time, as a smoker myself, I recognize what a nasty, addictive, worthless drug tobacco really is. I can't see any reason it needs to be legal, especially when something FAR less harmful such as pot is illegal. It's craziness to me.

How is that prohibition going?

Oh and there's this REALLY dangerous chemical that's in EVERYTHING - Hydrogen Dioxide - its in everything INCLUDING OUR FOOD!!! And one breath of that will kill you!

And smoke and smoke until their whole family dies along with all of their acquaintances.

Because the reason I think it should is because I'm too fucking undisciplined to quit on my own.

Even though I agree with you on the dangers/costs, if you make tobacco a black-market product, it'll just cause more harm. We just have to keep making folks aware of the dangers and let them make their own decisions.

The results would've been edifying.

and private apartment balconies. My neighbor above me smokes on his balcony, polluting the air I breathe in my own apartment with foul, annoying, and toxic smoke. Total bullshit.

I have to say... fuck that.

Misread the post.

Anything done by consenting adults on private property should not be bound by laws. This is known as 'freedom' - and that includes the right to make poor decisions. What is permitted/banned in public should be handled on the municipal level.

:toast:

Sugar as well should be outlawed. It too, is at the core of most health problems. There are better natural non/low glycemic sugar subs, but the sugar industry has squashed the option for more choices. It's always , always about corporations and what THEY want!!!!

Cigarettes, sugar, pornography, alcohol, not nec. in that order...destroys health, lives, marriages, the list goes on.

BUT>>> if our gov. can clean up our air quality, or at least make a dent in it as the Clean Air Act did, then there is a ray of hope!

We can all live in San Angeles and give mellow greetings and have joy-joy days!

I would prefer legal but if they all were illegal it wouldn't be any skin off my nose, I can easily do without all three.

Oh, wait...

I'm fairly sure I did.

We *already* have prohibition with all its concomitant problems.. It just means I can't have my particular recreational drug of choice without breaking the law.

Perhaps if some of the tobacco addicts and boozers were to share the pain they might get a fucking clue.

Its not as though we've learned anything from history...

I'm not sure most of them could learn anything from direct consequences.

The one who can learn by reading.

The few who can learn from the experience of others.

The rest of us have to whizz on the electric fence for ourselves.

I think it was Will Rogers who said that but I'm not sure.

And, Bubble wrap.

self-destructive.

Smoking in enclosed, public spaces where other people are forced to breathe it in, that's another story.

But outlawed? That's idiocy. What we need is an across the board acknowledgment that sometimes people make choices we may not agree with, but we should all worry about our own behavior instead of obsessing over running our neighbors' lives.

Legalize and tax pot, de-scale the $40 Billion a yr. drug war.. if people drive drunk, neglect their kids, endanger the health of others, then their behavior becomes a collective problem. If they're only hurting themselves, it's not your business.

Two useless amendments to the Constitution, Al Capone, Bugs Moran and the rise of Organized Crime, and look at the company you'll have...



Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition_in_the_United_States

:wtf:

You just wanted to whack the hive with a stick and watch all the bees fly out.

If there are policy or legislative ways to keep kids from smoking, that's what should be explored. Almost all addicted smokers started as children, and did so to fit in to a social group. As much anti-smoking info as there is out there, it pales next to the resources of Big Tobacco. Kids are stupid enough to start, but as adults their smarts don't equal their habit.

Edit to fix a typo and to add that tobacco, unlike food or alcohol, cannot be used in a safe way. That's what gives the lie to the hyperbole about "banning ________ while you're at it."

(especially Pixie sticks. Those things are crack for 8 year olds).:-)

I can't even begin to count how many pennies I spent on the stuff as a kid


:scared:

to me. Having a hard time trying to kick for 1,397 time.

I'm more one of those "let's legalize everything" people.

:smoke:

Just like any other banned substance ~~ there becomes an underground for it and we have enough shit like that already.

JMHO

I wonder just how many of them drink alcohol, or smoke pot, or drive cars? Or all three?

Some people need to stop obsessing over what other people do. :shrug:

or both?

But I guess you like organized crime, narco states, and the obvious thing to follow: an enhanced police state.

You don't have to outlaw the growing, curing, sale and use of tobacco in small amounts (less than 100 pounds?) by individuals.

Without the industrial-scale manufacture by corporations, use of tobacco would be greatly decreased. Most of the benefits of reduced consumption could be achieved by shutting down the large scale cigarette factories.

Small scale production and trading of tobacco by individuals may be an attractive cottage industry that many people can earn supplementary income from.

No fan of tobacco, but the 'war on drugs' is quite bad enough as it is.

But smoke nazis make my teeth itch.

Smokers pay a shitload of taxes.

So does alcohol. So does sex. So do guns. So do cars. So do planes. So do trains.
We need to allow people to make their own choices, despite some of the negative effects.
I am not in support of outlawing tobacco.

i'm a smoker and am fine with the smoking ban in my state, i'm fine with having to be a certain distance from the entrance of a business or public building.

i don't smoke around kids, i don't smoke in my car if i've got a nonsmoker in there with me, but tell me where the damage is if i want to smoke in my car, my front porch or the smoking lounge at the airport.

obesity is a drain on our resources. fast food, soda and junk food has absolutely no positive use, neither do suvs or other gas guzzling vehicles.

(Oy vay)

There are some things we just can't handle.
Tobacco is one of them.

and we know that worked out really well.

The vast majority of the posts here are directly opposed to the idea of a tobacco ban, in spite of it serving little purpose besides harming the user.

I think I'm going to need to bookmark this thread, as it should serve as a useful tool in the future. :)

For the record, I also agree with the majority here, and I have a feeling Tim does as well, though I'll not speak for him.

It's thought that they might be self medicating and that nicotine may be helpful in allaying the symptoms of schizophrenia..

This is why more ADHD folks smoke than non-ADHD folks...

From the Center for Disease Control

"The conclusion that secondhand smoke exposure causes SIDS is supported both by biological studies in animals and epidemiological studies in humans.1"

http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/secondhand_smoke/health_effects/sids/

It's about the only way I'll actually quit!

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-161715942.html

"He said 19 people lived in the two apartments."

We just love to blame objects...

They should have to pay for health insurance out of their own pocket without the option of joining a public government plan. Everyone shouldn't have to pay for their preventable and inevitable lung and heart problems.

jocks, stage-divers, skydivers, bungee jumpers, etc...

In fact, only perfectly healthy people should be allowed to get that insurance! :eyes:

And, of course, you will ALSO ban anyone who has ever smoked pot, or drank an alcoholic beverage in THEIR LIFETIME, right?

I shouldn't have to pay for the frigging idiot who drives down the road putting on their make-up, causing an auto accident.

I shouldn't have to pay because some asshole's teenager decides to skateboard down the rail of stone steps, breaking his arm in 3 places, and causing a concussion.

I shouldn't have to pay because somebody decides they are too fat and starves themselves to the point of needing an intervention with hospitalization.

But guess what -- we ALL pay for everyone else's stupidity. Personally, I don't want to have to pay for the cancer treatments that are brought on by women taking birth control pills for a couple of decades. I can cite sources that state that many of the cancers happening to these women now are caused by *their choice* to take the meds. How many women will you be willing to tell *go get your own insurance, because what you did caused your problem and I refuse to pay for it* -- you brave enough to do that? Or is it in actuality just mean-spirited and petty?

Gawd -- it's an embarrassment how many childish, petty mean-spirited people we have in this country. I guess we can really say we're number one in something. It's certainly not something to be proud of, is it? :sarcasm:

Price of a carton in Montreal: $64.00 USD
24 cartons to a case = $1,536 per case
10 cases = $15,360

Sell in NYC for $20 a pack.
Total street value in NYC = $48,000

$32,640 profit for one trip to Montreal.

But, of course, nobody would ever do that!

let's outlaw them all! no, tobacco is a choice.

Tobacco really is awfully bad stuff. People are buying an addictive poison that kills lots of people, innocent, and not innocent.

And almost every single person here considers it acceptable.

About 443,000 deaths per year in the U.S. because people want to use a drug that only does harm.

It isn't even good for anything at all.

http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/tables/health/attrdeaths/index.htm

Tobacco is used primarily because it is addictive.

Trust me, I am a smoker of almost 20 years. I have quit numerous times. Many smokers do not "want" to use tobacco at all. It is an extremely addictive substance, and addiction severely limits choice.

And that is why I, as a smoker, want tobacco banned.

You can buy cigarettes in the most oppressive countries on earth.

Is legal tobacco in China their price of freedom?

We've pumped so many toxins into it, we will end up dying by breathing it!

My personal stand: Tobacco is foul, nasty and bad to your health. But if you want to kill yourself slowly and stink to high hell, that's your choice. It's your body, you do what you want to it. However I choose NOT to consume tobacco, including that smoke. So no smoking around me - please. (Same goes for my kids until they're old enough to say no themselves).

Therefore tobacco should not be outlawed because of what it does - but certainly highly discouraged, and educated. The present laws are fine for tobacco.

Plus banning it will drive things underground, plus what will it do to the NC farming economy? Sure, it's not the only crop, but it's the major one around here. Could soybeans replace all that tobacco income? The tobacco would instead be grown where it's legal and smuggled in after it's processed. DEA have enough to do with the other drugs that definitely do more harm.

Mark.

Everybody feels the same about assault weapons as they do tobacco, right?

I'm still a little shocked everybody says tobacco should not be outlawed.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=242621&mesg_id=242621

Tobacco has no positive qualities. It is addictive, and addiction means that people don't have a drastically reduced level of choice about whether to continue using it or not. Many people (like myself) will continue smoking as long as it is available, due to the powerful addiction.

The product should be removed from store shelves entirely. There is absolutely no good reason it should remain available.

A total ban would just create a powerful black market for it and I don't feel like increasing the coffers of gangs and criminals.

Of course not - but I would support legislation to regulate how it can be produced to limit the chemical additives in it.

The sale of tobacco could be banned without criminalizing possession. I wouldn't support jailing people for smoking. That's crazy. But I'd love to see tobacco taken out of stores.

n/t

:popcorn:

Let's ban it, too!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=222&topic_id=65884&mesg_id=65884

:sarcasm:

The only drawback is, it stinks so terribly bad. :shrug:

Since when is social Darwinism a Democratic value?

most people become addicted to nicotine before they are old enough to understand the consequences of their actions.
Tobacco companies use this fact to their advantage. Tobacco companies are currently, right now, GIVING AWAY cigarettes in developing countries, to kids. Grooming their next batch of smokers.Knowing full well what tobacco will do to those countries.

It isn't really fair to blame teenagers for being inexperienced. You know, we are kind of supposed to help protect them from themselves until they are old enough to make adult decisions. Choosing to become an addict is an adult decision.

- and if you outlaw one the rest will follow.

Many would rather take their chances than be under the thumb of the nanny state. Left wing authoritarians are the most scary group of people on earth. One hands gives a lift up and the other goes up the ass to start the puppet show.

give it up - it isn't going to happen.

How utterly stupid.

What a DUMB IDEA!

Pure tobacco as in hand-rolled cigars, smoked in moderation, isn't harmful.


Smoking 20+ cigarettes made from tobacco with god only knows what additives, warpped in toxic processed paper is not smart at all.

Good lord. Prohibition of social drugs does not work, and only encourages a large criminal class.

I hate tobacco products and the people who peddle them. In my personal version of Dante's Inferno there is a very special place in Hell for Big Tobacco and their pet advertising firms. I do not hate the addicts -- too many people in my family have really suffered trying to kick the habit.

What I would like to see, rather than a ban on tobacco, is a ban on advertising, including product placement in movies and tv. Let the stuff be promoted word of mouth only. Usage would go way down, especially among the youngsters who of necessity make up the vast majority of new smokers.

Hekate

...and now that I think of it, the last "occasionally" was maybe three years ago, so I'm not exactly an addict.

Hell, no! As others have pointed out, have you completely forgotten about Prohibition and the War on (some) Drugs (used by some people)?

And about it beng a monstrous drain on our health resources... why don't you think that through? What other things are "monsterous drains" that could also be banned? And how many of those are things you practice? And if not you, other members of your family, your friends, etc.?

Absolutist things like this blow out in unexpected directions. We've seen this repeatedly in history. How many repressive farces do we need?

Well they would have...probably....

the inverse relationship between smoking and Parkinson's disease. (The longer you smoke and the more you smoke the lower the chance you develop the disease. There have been many, many retrospective studies including with twins and twin findings just replicate the many huge retrospective studies...that is the result finds


The same is found in prospective studies as well
Cigarette smoking and the incidence of Parkinson's disease in two prospective studies.


Oh and also the protective effect nicotine has on the brain overall. The neuroprotective effect has been known for some time, it is only the mechanism still being figured out.
For instance A POSSIBLE EXPLANATION FOR NICOTINE’S NEUROPROTECTIVE EFFECT


There are other theories as well that google to point you to if you are interested in how nicotine is protective of the brain, particularly the aging brain. Guess we have nicotinic receptors for a reason

Nicotine is also beneficial to disorders as varied as
ulcerative colitis to
Impact of Smoking on Clinical and Angiographic Restenosis After Percutaneous Coronary Intervention
(Restenosis is the re-narrowing of a coronary artery after it has been treated)

I could also show studies that show it seems to hale resistant forms of tuberculosis and certain forms of skin cancer, a particular form of asthma. Even
breast cancer


I could name another dozen disorders shown to be alleviated by nicotine. Still I know what you mean. Smoking stinks and it is the cause of many health problems. It isn't nearly as expensive to society as obesity plus smokers pay a huge amount of money TO society through taxes and of course the tobacco company paid billions for damages to states...although sadly very little of that was set aside to help people quit smoking or to offset health costs ahead.

Part of why smoking isn't as bad for society as obesity is because the health problems it might cause come generally come in older age, after retirement. Obesity starts causing problems during peoples working years
A lot more could be said about that too. Wonder what has spiked the obesity rate so much. (Though that just increases societal cost. On individual basis the cost (of healthcare, medicine, lost work) is greater for obesity in any case.

Imagine smoking wouldn't be so fatal if we didn't chose to use the cheapest fertilizer to grow it that adds the infamous http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&num=30&newwindow=1&q=smoking+tobacco+fertilizer+polonium&btnG=Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=">polonium 210 to the cigarette. As the
1977 Phillip Morris report on Polonium in Fertilize said

Obviously there are ways to get nicotine without so many bad effects. This is really really reminding me of the native americans who smoked the pipe on occasion, not 30 times a day.

I have a lot of reading to do. Thanks for all the info. I'm kind of blown away.

since it is most effective either semi-constant low dose or intermittent high dose. I don't want to give you more reading but studies found the patch effective in things like Tourette's, age related memory impairment, attention disorders and other things. They think these benefits are because nicotine functions like acetylcholine and also increases the level of other neurotransmitters

I started looking into this over a decade ago when I noticed a clear difference in some clients and it turned out they had started smoking (or returned to it). I was amazed by what I found. It made me so much slower to judge smokers...maybe our bodies have some wisdom. Don't get me wrong, not saying people should smoke or that all smokers are doing something good for themselves. Just that I know I don't know

I could write just as long about this issue with the fertilizer used. Researchers have petitioned the FDA the last 25 years but get no reaction. The super phosphate fertilizers do get radioactive elements in other foods too but it's far far safer because it washes away, just exits the body but it clings to the sticky tobacco flower and smoking it is a worst way to bring it into the body... anyway the researchers estimate 90 to 95% of the lung cancer is due to the fertilizer used. Crazy. I don't know anyone who has had lung cancer but it is wrenching that we might be doing it to them. I won't get into all that research! But that crappy fertilizer should be banned. Even if it is safer in foods radioactivity does not belong there. The European Union is facing looking at regulating this.

In the meantime I wish we did what Sweden and Norway do. A tobacco product called
snus It's a smokeless tobacco (in tiny tea bags, no spitting). We have that here but the US does not control or force companies to even report the amount of tobacco-specific nitrosamine (TSNA), a carcinogen tied to oral cancer. Their snus, which is not fermented, is under 2.8 parts per mil compared to 128 parts per mil in American brands. Studies have shown snus is not tied to oral cancer.

Some are against encouraging snus use because we should just say no, not encourage any use. But it is so, so much healthier than smoking as extensive studies bear out. And God knows it is safer for the non tobacco users. No second hand smoke. If even for them we should really push it as an alternative. Public health people should welcome it. (I love a smoker and ordered them the snus from Sweden myself)

Because like I said...cigarettes stink and I don't like them either.
When it comes to health this and statin drugs/coenzyme Q-10 can set me off on rants. There are just big issues around them... so pardon me!

Thanks for replying so I know my post was seen.

People should be able to smoke all they wish, just not in Public. why should the Public have to suffer through their filth?

should be filled with small time cigarette smokers and peddlers.