Police: Ohio woman shoots self at gun range, dies

SHARONVILLE, Ohio — Police say a woman rented a handgun at an Ohio indoor shooting range, got some instructions on how to use it and then fatally shot herself.

Police in the Cincinnati suburb of Sharonville say they believe Ann Fukuyama committed suicide Sunday at Target World, a public range that sells and rents guns and has a dozen 25-yard target shooting lanes. They say the 46-year-old Cincinnati resident died at a local hospital.

Witnesses say the woman gave no warning or indication anything was wrong.

But police say she may have attempted suicide before and they believe she went to the target range to kill herself.

Target World manager Jeff Mann says the range is operating normally. He won't discuss the woman or the shooting.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gXG3317F-aRy9GzfiIXvqyUD8sMgD99N3A500

:(

they're traumatizing others? There's not much worse than dealing with a suicide, except perhaps dealing with a murder victim. It's a terrible thing for someone unaccustomed to the sight of death to have to deal with.

What a rotten thing to do. If you're going to kill yourself, row out to sea, hop over the side of the boat with a cinderblock round your waist, and shoot yourself in deep water, so people don't have to handle the carcass and clean up the blood.

Probably didn't own a gun. That's the attraction of shooting ranges for suicides. Rent a gun and check out. It's a fairly common occurrence.

the first time I think I've ever heard of such a thing.

who changed his rental policy to licensed CCWs only, the assumption being you likely have a gun at home. It's probably a hit on his business, but there isn't much else he can do. Here's a range that's had 6 instances since 1995, 7 if you go back to 1982:

http://www.theacorn.com/news/2006/0831/Front_Page/004.html

shot her son then shot herself. Sad & sick.

They have camera surveillance at every shooting position, and it showed the woman getting the man next to her to help her reload her gun, then she shot her son in the back of the head and then shot herself. The woman had mental problems and said she had to send her son to heaven. She had been barred from the range because she tried to kill herself there once before. Video below is the news clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vPnMbLr5nc

for LIFE for "creating a disturbance" (not for trying to kill herself) the first time she pulled that shit.

I can't believe they let her back in. That's outrageous. And someone that fucked up needs to be prevented from having access to weapons, even to target practice.

But thats like banning someone from a bar. Not every employee is going to recognize them on the spot.

But if they'd had some kind of biometric identifiers--for example, the old iris scan or the fingerprint scan--required to allow people access to the range, that might have kept her out of there. That way, the employees wouldn't all have to go through "face recognition refresher" and/or worry about if a hairstyle change and a pair of glasses lets someone slip through.

I feel bad for the poor employee who let her in and handed her the gun she used to kill her child and herself. That poor person is probably fucked up six ways to Sunday as a consequence of this.

Buy the rope to hang yourself with a credit card and make Wal-Mart eat the losses. lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l81W-jcOuj0

If she could rent a gun, she could buy a gun (who cares about the cost if you are killing yourself).

Ohio has no waiting period.
She could have bought the gun and killed herself at home.

I wonder why they (she and multiple others) choose to end it at the range?

It's federally mandated if you're buying, up to the state if you're renting. Maybe she couldn't legally purchase a gun.

I wouldn't discount cost, either. If you don't have money, a rental might be possible when a purchase isn't.

If you need to learn to use it I guess lessons are a good idea.

But unless you have no friends and family and bury yourself before you shoot...it will cause shock and pain to others. I hope she didn't have kids...
and sorry about her pain that led her to this.

Yes it is selfish but selfishness is hardly what moves most people to suicide. The despair is sometimes all they are feeling.

even worse if theirs pets in the house, binky your pet poodle isnt your friend after your dead im afraid.

My commuter train line experiences at least one suicide every three months.

Things have been picking up lately, though.

I dont think that suicides are "fairly common" at shooting ranges. A quick search does show that it does happen, but it would seem that the number of suicides at ranges compared to the number of people that use a range is minuscule, not "fairly common."

a gun unless you bring one in with you.

I wonder how many of them would rethink if they realized that they were being both rude and selfish? Probably not many, but you never know.

him/her for being "rude and selfish?" Good Goddess. Does it not occur to you that a person committing suicide is not, in most cases, exactly rational?

Matthew Arnold:

"For the world which seems to lie before us/so various, so beautiful,so new/hath really neither joy nor love nor light/nor certitude, nor peace, nor help for pain/ and we are here as on a darkling plain/where ignorant armies clash by night." (from memory, so I may not have it exact)

Try a little compassion, eh?

the whole "My family/The world will be better off when I'm gone" drama. It's almost boiler plate.

If someone demonstrated that in practical ways, that some people in the world would NOT be better off, and said "You selfish, rude bastard, if you 'go' your are going to permanently traumatize anywhere from one to ten people who have to deal with your fucked-up remains, and ruin their lives FOREVER along with killing yourself--is that your goal? To make life horrible for others on your way out?" I wonder if that wouldn't at least stall the action and get that person to put down the gun/get off the ledge/not take the pills, whatever. It sure beats the hell out of "Jump, JUMP, JUMP!!!" doesn't it?

It's not a lack of "compassion" either--it's simple pragmatism. What, you think it's "better" to say "Oh, poor you, boo hoo" while they put the gun in their mouth and pull the trigger? You get someone in that guilt laden/all my fault/life sucks frame of mind, the only thing that might stall them, if not stop them, is the knowledge that they're going to really fuck up someone else's life.

I'm no expert on these things, and don't care to be. However, I once knew a very polite suicide. He did his deed outside on the lawn so as not to ruin the furniture in the house and said as much in his GBCW note.

I wonder if it's an untapped angle, is all.

creepy

shirt!

I do, though, have friends who have had to deal with the aftermath of suicide, and I often wonder if the "tough love" approach would work on some of them.

My friend who had to cut his father down from the rafters is still fucked up forty years later.

See, that's "creepy."

I wonder - do you tell the impoverished to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" too? Persons suffering from PTSD to "straighten up and fly right?" Traumatized children to "stop feeling sorry for yourself?"

If what you wrote is what you call "compassion" there is simply no point talking to you.

expressing an opinion? How intolerant is that? Only your viewpoint is valid, here, is that it?

I said the situation was sad....and rude. And I went on to explain why. Read all my posts on this thread and you'll get a full sense of how and why I have the view I do.

You don't have to agree with me, but you don't have to be a scolding fucking asshole about it, either. How hard is it to say "My mileage varies" without being a didactic finger-wagging shithead on top of it all? Difficult, or impossible?

Pssst--I "get" that your mileage varies, ya? And it won't hurt my feelings in the slightest if you don't want to talk to me. You don't seem interested in doing that, anyway--you're much more comfortable talking "AT" me, it would appear.


You go on and have a nice day, now.

:hi:

I've had two friends kill themselves. i never even once considered that they might have been being "selfish", since one was having problems with the mother of his kid and the other, from a very conservative family, had just discovered he had HIV.

Each time, I had wished I had been there to help, especially since in the first case, there had been a "cry for help" (which may have actually been a ploy to get me or my roommate to discover his body, rather than a family member, which is what ended up happening).

After my mom quite literally kicked me out into the dark and the rain when she found out I'm gay, I seriously considered jumping off an overpass into an oncoming big rig. I guess I was just being "selfish".



A shoulder to cry on would have made me stop thinking about killing myself, but the repudiation of me came from the Ultimate Crying Shoulder itself. Eventually, I made my way to an acquaintance's home, because I couldn't even bear to face my own friends. This tangentially-known person talked me down from killing myself. Oh, and they did give me a shoulder to cry on.



Well, no, there's also direct and explicit expressions of compassion for their situation.



OBVIOUSLY. I sincerely hope you'd never try. You, my dear, would prompt their suicides with your incredible lack of compassion and empathy.

Oh, and just so you don't smirk and say something like, "well, you're here NOW, so you obviously got over it" or some other sanctimonious bullshit like that, I should inform you that a) I was afraid I might live in pain for the rest of my life if I didn't do it "right" and b) I (as it turns out, mistakenly) wanted to try to heal the sudden rift between myself and my family, and c) that selfsame pain hurts and haunts me 24/7 to this very day and has deeply affected my subsequent relations with others.

But so long as I wasn't "selfish", it's all good, RIGHT?

Thank God you (or someone with your attitude) weren't there that night. I would have killed myself. Guaranteed.

So, you would traumatize a complete stranger for life because of your unresolved personal problems, and after he squashed you like a bug and splattered your guts all over his rig, still never consider yourself "selfish"?

No, I'd call you an asshole. You would ruin a stranger's life in order to end your own.

Someone who gets what I'm saying!

I'm taking a boatload of shit, here, and being accused of all sorts of crap. This guy is telling me that because I find value in the "don't be selfish" approach, that that "must" mean I don't think the "shoulder to cry on" or "talk out your troubles" or any of the other techniques have any value.

Of course, I never said anything of the sort. He just extrapolated so he could yell at me. He's not the only one with reading issues, either.

mental anguish that makes the desire to stop the suffering blind you to anything other than to just make it stop.


Call me any fucking name you like- names are nothing in comparison. How can your superior compassion and empathy for others allow you to respond to a person who has shared their reality with you like this-- ??? please step back and think about your own effects towards others.

I hope you and your loved ones, never know what it feels like to be in that place- and i mean that sincerely, NOT sarcastic ly.

peace~

I know a thing or two of 'mental anguish'.

It is a battle I fight every waking moment of my life.


Never assume anything.

I'm sorry you are suffering. I still hope you nor anyone you love ever gets to the place where the only thing that matters is to make it stop permanently.

I'm not speaking without knowledge or experience.

May we all come to a place of peace and healing someday.

:hi:

of having deliberately been used as a murder machine, and having killed someone who used his vehicle to end his life. May the fireman never have to scrape up the chunks of the guy from the highway after the person has jumped. May all the other people who ran over dead Harry just "get over it," too.

This subthread isn't about calling people "fucking names," it's about a TACTIC. One tactic amongst many. A tactic that doesn't exclude other methodologies. A tactic that might keep Harry's bloodied remains off the big rig and off the middle lane of the highway.

I can't fathom people who say they'd do "everything they could" to save someone, but won't contemplate use of this tactic in the appropriate circumstance. Seems a bit rigid to me.

I couldn't really turn to anyone I knew because the person who pushed me to that point- my own mom- rejected me for being gay- for being a 'bad' person, for being, well, less.

If someone had told me that she was going to have her life ruined if I killed myself at that moment in time, I very likely would have jumped without hesitation. I didn't go to any friends because of that very fear- that they or their parents would lay blame all over me.

MADem quite clearly doesn't know what the receiving end of suicidal ideation is like.

every single suicidal person felt exactly like you, and will respond to the exact same cocktail of soothing comments to come down off the ledge?

See, the difference between you and me is that I'm trying to have a conversation, and you're very busy, along with others, condemning me for simply postulating a theory.


You clearly don't realize it, but you're proving my point just a bit. The standard crisis prevention tactic is to tell suicidal people that mom, family, etc., love them and care about them--but you're saying that if the counsellor said that to you, you'd be off the ledge and all over the sidewalk.

Interesting.

you wouldn't respond like this.

You need to think before responding.

Have you ever attempted suicide? Have you ever lost anyone you love to suicide? Are you in the helping profession?

Your words are not helpful.

I think you need to take the "personal" and the "scolding" out of this discussion and try to see what I am saying, uncolored by your prejudices and biases. And if you cannot do that, you need to stop tossing insults at me because you don't like the questions I'm asking.

My goal is not to "help." This is GD, not HEALTH or some other outreach forum. I was attempting to have a discussion on crisis response methodology, not play touchy-feely. I postulated a simple theory. Is it possible that this might work, I asked. In response, I get variations of "How DARE you" and "You're an ignorant asshole."

Sweet. Your words aren't "helpful" either--but I wasn't looking for "help," I was looking for discussion and feedback. You know, like normal people do, talking over an idea, turning it over, giving it a run for its money.

I'm not going to get that--because you and a few others have circled the wagons and shouted down any hope of discussion in a rather INTOLERANT way, while enthusiastically "characterizing" me.

Well done. Heckuva job, Brownie. Pat yourself on the back!

The "shoulder to cry on" isn't prohibited by my theory. Nor is the compassionate approach. It's all tools in the toolbox.

Just like the "How your actions affect others" strategy is.

Your thesis, though (which is completely false), is that I am saying that one method is "better" than the other, or my method rules out others. That's not what I am saying at all. If you read what I was saying, I never said "Eschew other theories, my way is the only way!" I didn't say anything even CLOSE to that.

But hey, you're focused on getting up in my face about my theory, aren't you-- you WANT to get all angry and huffy at me, you're making shit up about my POV (ASSuming), and you don't want to have an adult discussion on the topic. You just want to one-way transmit what an asshole you think I am, because doing that makes YOU feel like you're "better" than me.

That's your problem. I'm really not interested in getting into an overblown drama with you. I've postulated a sliver of an idea, in a measured fashion, and all the hectoring and "shoulda/woulda/how couldya" nonsense in the world isn't going to make me say "Ewww, how could I have DARED to suggest that calling some people in a specific frame of mind selfish might not pull one off the ledge?"

It is, however, going to make me say "Why can't you read what I write without prejudging, extrapolating, and thinking--no, pretending-- you know how I feel about other methods of working with people contemplating suicide?"

But no--that ruins your little finger wagging lecture, doesn't it? No fun to talk things out like adults! Way more fun to scream "You suck, I hate you, I hate your opinion, and oh--you're an asshole, too!!! An asshole with, with..no COMPASSION!!!!!" Telling me I might prompt people to suicide? That was a real slick comment, sport, though based entirely on facts not in evidence. Real "classy" on your part, too. Check yourself in the mirror, Mister Compassion!

I really do hope your yelling at me made you feel somehow "better," more compassionate, more knowing, superior, or what-have-you--I wouldn't want all that bloviating and false assumption to go completely to waste. Sounds like that's something you really need, too.

Have a nice day.

:hi:

edge of the abyss is NOT a worth trying.

Reinforcing the fact that you care about them, that you would miss them, that they are valued and loved even if they can't believe it or accept it right now can be helpful- but telling them they are screwing up lots of other lives???

you might as well just pull the trigger for them.

(in my experience- which sadly not limited)

Old Harry is still teetering on the ledge of the highway overpass, ready to jump. He doesn't want to hear about caring, valued, loved--any of the buttons you are pushing. In fact, he tells you to go fuck yourself, that's he's gonna do it.

A bunch of assholes are down below, yelling "Jump, jump, jump!!"

You don't think it's worth a roll of the dice, at that point, to try saying "Harry, if you jump, you're gonna fuck up one of those cars down there--and that car might belong to a single mother with kids who needs the car to get to work. Harry, do you really wanna be a selfish asshole and deny that woman her ride to work, fuck up her head, maybe kill her if you land on her car, maybe kill her kids?" Or, "Harry, you are going to traumatize the hell out of the poor guy who runs over you. You know how you're feeling? You're going to pass that on to at least one person, maybe ten, depending on how many people run your ass over. And how about the poor fireman who has to scoop you up off the pavement with a shovel? He'll be horrified for life, sickened. You really want to do that to some fireman who risks his life for people every day?"

You're assuming that Harry is going to respond to your goodness and mercy, because that's the way it "always" works. What if he doesn't respond? What if he snarls at you and rejects your 'shoulder to cry on' and 'compassion' and all that touchy-feely stuff? What if he jumps?

Can you say to yourself, if he does go SPLAT, in the quiet of the night, you really did "everything you could" when you didn't try that tack?

People actually do respond to guilt and shame. If they didn't, the Catholic Church wouldn't have any members. In fact, organized religions of all sorts would go "poof" overnight.

people who are going to make the choice no matter WHAT you say- no matter what you try and do to stop them.

Believe me. It's a fact.

We cannot make anyone choose to live. That's a very difficult thing to accept- but it's reality.

You need to understand that, if you ever hope to move on in the wake of suicide.

Say you lay your load of guilt on them, and they jump anyway? What will you say to yourself in the middle of the night when the question arises, "maybe I shouldn't have added to his sense of being overwhelmed- maybe that was the last straw".

The truth is, if someone is determined to die, they will. All the second guessing in the world won't bring them back, or ease the grief.

I understand your anger- I also understand what it is like to walk the line between life and death.

peace~

pushing their bullshit onto that big rig driver for the rest of HIS life, too.

I honestly think I "understand" a bit more than you do, actually.

I think we also have to consider the living, and those who want to keep on living, along with those who are determined to "off" themselves. Perhaps my compassion is a bit more pragmatic than yours?

If I "lay my load of guilt on them, and they jump anyways" I will be able to say--unlike you--that I did EVERYTHING I could possibly think of, that I left no stone unturned. I didn't stop with "Poor you, you're loved, you're valued, boo hoo, think of the children..."

I don't think you "understand my anger" at all, either. In fact, I know you don't.

See, I'm not at all "angry." Not in the slightest, in fact. For the life of me, though, I do not understand why people on the internet translate "Doesn't agree with me, ME, MEEEEEE" into "anger." You don't have to agree with me, see? No one does. I think it's pretty crass of people to do that "asparagus tossing" routine, though, when they don't like what people are saying. I'm not mean, I'm not angry, I'm not most of the things I've been charged with here--I'm simply holding a different opinion.

I'm trying (why I bother, I have no idea, really, judging by the quality of poutraged responses with no discussion I am getting) to have a rational discussion on an interesting aspect of the human condition, suicide, and the only person who's treating me with any dignity and respect, without the "how dare yous" and finger-wagging is the guy with acknowledged lifelong clinical depression who understands a thing or two about chronic "mental anguish." Everyone else is playing the "Shame on YOU for having those thoughts, thinking those ideas, holding those opinions," game. Like ideas are evil...on a progressive board?

It's a bit tiresome, but angry? No. Disappointed that there are so many close-minded people too busy scolding from their perches on their high horses to engage in real discussion?

Yes-- but that's life. And death.

Those are two things we will all have in common, one day.

have replied to you really are.

If all you are interested in is having people agree with you, then thanks for making that clear.

Some people have experiences that gives them knowledge about this issue that comes from a place of incredible pain. Their thoughts and opinions are as valid as yours. Even if they are completely opposite from yours.

I'm not "interested in having people agree with" me, and if you took that from my painfully precise remarks, you can't read for comprehension. I think that's a kind way of putting it.

I was interested in having a discussion, an exchange of views, devoid of comments like "You're bad, you're not compassionate, you're not nice, you're an asshole" simply because I hold a differing view.

I don't demand that anyone agree with me, I'd simply like to exchange ideas without stupid name-calling and "asparagus casting." That's what I said. It went right over your head.

"Some people" have the ability to read a sentence, even a paragraph, or an entire post, and understand it. Others don't.

You're in the latter category. I am sorry to say.

Have a nice day.

at the way you communicate with others. Maybe you don't hear the way you are coming across- If you think you entered into this OP without 'name-calling' I hope you'll really step back and do some honest re-thinking.

There are many kinds of intelligence MADem. I'm not going to call you names- I understand well enough what you are saying.

And I don't believe you when you say you are my "pal" or that you are sorry to call me ignorant.

despite that, I do sincerly wish you peace, because we all in this together, and i don't believe deep down in our very core, any of us want to be cruel or to make others miserable.

bye~

I never called you "ignorant"--someone called ME that on this very thread. I said you don't read--that's what I was sorry to say (but see, you proved my point--you extrapolated and "made up" something that wasn't there).

You have preformed biases that make conversation impossible. I'm postulating an admittedly uncomfortable theory, and rather than discuss it, I'm being shouted down and scolded for daring to color outside the lines.

Yes, we are all in this together, and as I said, the one thing we all have in common is life and death.

Have a nice life.

MADem:
"Some people" have the ability to read a sentence, even a paragraph, or an entire post, and understand it. Others don't.

You're in the latter category. I am sorry to say. "

MADem:
"I never called you "ignorant"--someone called ME that on this very thread. I said you don't read--that's what I was sorry to say (but see, you proved my point--you extrapolated and "made up" something that wasn't there)."

Wikipedia:
"Ignorance is the state in which one lacks knowledge, is unaware of something or chooses to subjectively ignore information."


:shrug:

But hey, stop complaining--you've WON. I'm done trying to discuss this topic here. You've successfully crushed the topic.

Happy? Go celebrate.

and i'm not so powerful that i have control over anyone other than myself (at best) so if you choose to end your participation in this thread, that is your decision to make and to live with.

No, i'm not "happy"- and i don't believe that you really 'hope' i am. I'm disapointed that you haven't seemed able to hear any of the voices which counter the "theory" you "postulate".
And as for bias- it's no different than assholes, we all have them. Sometimes we like to think we don't- but we do.
Which is a good thing, otherwise we'd all be full of shit.


:shrug:

You "seem" to think you know me, when you just don't. Here, let me take a shot at characterizing you: Perhaps you're the one with the guilt complex, and that's why my topic disturbed you? It "seems" that way to me, a bit.


Look, you shut the discussion down. You achieved your objective. Who in their right mind would wade into this shitstorm? It's very little signal, and lots of noise. It's doomed. I've given up.


No, I really don't care if you're "happy." That question was a bit ironic. Of course, you knew that. Have a nice life.

People choose to kill themselves in a public manner - jumping off of a building for example.

and the poor people who have to clean it up, if they'd do what they do--at least in the way they do it.

a public act and the mess. No way to change the emotions that drive some people.

Funny, though, how some folks wanna crawl up my ass for postulating a theory. Ain't the internet grand?

Had a friend years ago that killed himself in a very public way. I think knowing him and seeing how he went colors my perception.

If you look around, though, you'll see I'm taking it with both barrels, pardon the pun...!

honestly, it's 2009 and people don't know yet that clinical depression is a disease that affects the brain?????

the woman wasn't rude, she was ill, her brain was under the influence of a severe life-threatening disease, and she paid the ultimate price of being ill, she fucking died

sorry it's so fucking inconvenient for those who are lucky enough not to be ill

sheesh, people sometimes

and pardon my french, but depression/suicide are not rare and people should really be aware of this stuff by now

People with clinical depression are not immune to/inoculated from considering the commentary of others with regard to how their behavior will affect others. And if the commentary serves to stall their actions, why not try it?

You can be ill and rude. They're not mutually exclusive conditions.

it is clear that putting an additional burden on suicidal people and calling them rude hasn't worked for you and the gruesome suicides continued to happen

it's almost as if...when you're scolding and shaming someone for being ill, instead of fixing them...the shame just makes it worse and more difficult for them to get back on track????

have a brain disease or a brain injury and then come back and tell me how being shamed for it changes your behavior for the better...sorry, as your own experience shows, it doesn't

people who are sick and in pain sometimes behave badly, if you can't understand and forgive them, then what can i tell you? no wonder you can't get over your anger, at some point you are just going to have to accept that people who are sick and in pain don't have the same ability to manage themselves that you demand of them

your unrealistic expectations are not helping them and they seem to be hurting you


shame has never jolted anyone out of suicide, it has caused many to be more determined to complete their suicide though -- you simply haven't thought this thru in a sensible manner

It makes you look rather absurd when you finger wag at me and you haven't even comprehended what I wrote.

Where the hell did you get this pantload from? Can't you read? it is clear that putting an additional burden on suicidal people and calling them rude hasn't worked for you and the gruesome suicides continued to happen...

Uh, no--it's not "clear" at all that it "hasn't worked" for me, and if you read, rather than shoot off your keyboard like a blowhard know-it-all, you'd realize that this is simply a THEORY of mine, nothing that's been put into practice or even tried.

What's your idea? Come on--you've got Harry out on the ledge--he's about to jump. What do you say, expert? "Clearly," you're the know-it-all here, from your comments. What do you say? "Poor Harry. Don't do it, Harry. Life is worth living, Harry?" Amd then old Harry says "Fuck you" and jumps.

I'm simply suggesting (not declaring, suggesting) that if you tell Harry in graphic terms how his actions will impact others, maybe it will buy enough time for Fireman Dave to grab him off the ledge and get him to the locked ward and medicated. But see, I'm not "claiming" I know this for a fact--and that's where your ranting/scolding goes off the track. I am simply postulating a theory for discussion with mature adults who read posts fully.

I don't have "unrealistic expectations." I don't have any expectations. I was attempting to explore a theory, and you decided to be a didactic scold and crawl up my ass and tell me how I should feel/think--with blazingly inaccurate ASSumptions about what I said, to boot.

Shame does actually work in a lot of situations, at least short term, and a short term shaming might be enough to get our fictional Harry off the ledge. For you to say it doesn't ever work is another blazing inaccuracy. Have you tried to get Harry off the ledge that way? If you haven't, you don't know if it might work. Or not.

It's a "shame" you don't know how to read a post carefully and thoroughly before you mouth off at people, now, isn't it? Maybe we could have had an elucidative discussion about this rather interesting and complex subject matter, instead of you being a total shithead to me, and me telling you that you didn't read what I wrote.

And ya know what else? I'm not the one with the "anger" here--you're the one unloading on me in a rather rabid way...simply because you don't like a THEORY I postulated. How immature is that? You should take it down a few notches, ya know?

Try RTFP--reading the, er, FULL post--next time, before you post based on a sloppy and inaccurate reading of what people say, OK? That's the "sensible" thing to do.

Have a nice day.
:hi:

i won't wish you a nice day, i will wish that you learn something but not holding my breath

your theory was tried for hundreds, nay, thousands of years but apparently not enough people died to suit you so by all means...and maybe the world's flat too

Ok, you've done some more scolding--now point me to some evidence that my specific theory was tried and people died.

You're not reading what I've written, either. It's obvious.

Don't fall off that high horse!

How much more do you need? We recall quite clearly what we were feeling at the time. We know what would have pushed us over the edge.

As the one making the claim that this approach might work, it is incumbent upon you to show us the facts. Not the other way around.

As I said, you've already been told by people who have been there and who didn't kill themselves that this approach would not be helpful at all. You reject that, and you must have some reason for doing so.

Spill it, then.

I am NOT (read that word not--n-o-t, three letters, you do know the meaning of it, yes?) "making the claim" about anything. There's nothing to "spill." Making demands of me is counterproductive and does show you didn't read what I wrote, or you read it with so much bias that you were unable to understand what I was saying.

I postulated a theory. That's all it is, a theory. Doesn't anyone here remember using the scientific method in school, or is America full of morons who don't understand discussion and debate now?

I'm looking for input devoid of "I hate you, you're an asshole, you are ignorant, you have no clue" and other petulant comments. See, that's not discussion, that's scolding. It's also pretty closed-minded.

Frankly, no one has disproved my theory. They haven't proved it, but it hasn't been ruled out yet.

At least one person trying to smack me down demonstrated that the standard crisis management technique (your family loves you and cares about you) would have had the opposite effect.

So from that response, I guess the dynamic has to involve an individual knowledge of the person, and a clear understanding of what pushes/doesn't push, their buttons.

Why is it impossible to postulate that an altruistic worldview (caring about the semi driver, for example) might not "push the button" of a potential suicide?

I don't "reject" anything. I'm looking for discussion, and I'm plainly not getting it and pretty much ready to give up. I'm just getting comments that are just shy of "Fuck you, I hate your opinion, you're an ignorant asshole" in essence.

As I said, not terribly progressive. Who knew that ideas were verboten here?

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Way to go. Your MO is to go behind people's backs, I see.

Suggesting that I might be a sociopath, obliquely, but not having the guts to confront me directly.

That's the opposite of courageous conduct. "This person" has plenty of empathy, and I demonstrate it in my daily conduct--you don't know me at all. But do join the circle, and pile on! Be proud of yourself. Suppress all uncomfortable topics, crush any discussion that goes outside the carefully drawn parameters.

That's the progressive way--not.

You'll be happy to know I'm done with the topic. Too much to hope to find aficionados of social science on this forum, I guess. If it's not simplistic and repetitive Palin or Bachmann bashing, I guess it's too much of a challenge for some.

that they feel the only way to escape it is to kill themselves.

Don't talk about something that you know nothing about. Suicidal feelings are horrifying. You feel alone in the world, like no one else can save you. You cannot take into consideration the feelings of those around you because you are so out of your mind with anguish that you are completely introverted.

and you can break away from your "piling on" with the rest of the "HOW DARE YOU" crowd, I invite you to read the entire thread, slowly, carefully, and contextually.

I don't have a POV on this issue, I have a theory. I wasn't looking to provide solace to a suicide support group, I was looking for feedback and discussion of a theory.

Telling people "don't talk" is what Republicans do.

The exchange of ideas is how people learn.

FWIW, I'm not interested in discussing this topic anymore. You and others have made it quite clear that some topics are verboten on this so-called progressive forum. Alternate theories of sucide crisis management are apparently on the list.

"What a rotten thing to do. If you're going to kill yourself, row out to sea, hop over the side of the boat with a cinderblock round your waist, and shoot yourself in deep water, so people don't have to handle the carcass and clean up the blood."

Those are your words. That isn't a theory that you want to discuss with us. That's a statement of belief. And it's bullshit.

I'm more than willing to have a conversation on the subject. But I don't want to talk to someone who believes in something so insensitive and clueless.

You didn't read the whole thread, either.

You conveniently (deliberately?) missed quoting the "sad" bit in that first post of mine, which was the very first thing I said--I guess acknowledging that would fuck up your "insensitive and clueless and bullshit" theme, ya? Way easier to characterize me as the "Evil Other" (arrayed against you and the rest of the "us" of which you speak).

Since I'm apparently so "insensitive and clueless" it's quite impossible for the Much Better, Finer and Superior in All Respects You to have any sort of conversation with lowly, unworthy me.

Have a nice night.

:eyes:

I'm not going to search through this cluster fuck of posts to try and decipher what you meant by your original post.

Your OP was insensitive and completely uneducated. So what if you put the word "sad" in there? So what? Do you honestly think that makes up for the rest of the garbage?

Those were your words. The only question you had is: "Don't people realize that when they do that selfish shit, that they're traumatizing others?"

The answer is irrelevant. Suicidal people can barely handle their own emotions. How could they possibly think of anyone else? That isn't being selfish. That's being in a state of mental shutdown. So the rest of your beliefs- and that's what they are when you make a statement like that with no implied question- are completely wrong.

If you didn't mean it, or you were misinformed, it's okay to say so. It's okay to say that you were wrong.

But sweet attempt at playing the persecution complex on your part--no, I'm not "being mean to you." I'm telling it like it is.

Did you read the thread? I stated my case. You cherry pick what I say, and then get huffy when I take exception.

Now you're calling me "uneducated." While you (rather didactically) give me a boiler plate characterization of "suicidal people" that I rather doubt is accurate. Plenty of "suicidal people" know exactly what they're doing, and why, and are in control of their emotions. It depends on why they're killing themselves.

But of course, you know it all, so let me just step off.

Have a nice night, now--we have nothing more to say to each other. I'm "uneducated," and you know it all. We're quite done.

I, however, am not done.

I'd suggest that next time you speak a little more cautiously rather than suggest that suicidal people should throw themselves over board. I'm sure you are capable of posts that are a bit more reasonable.

There are people out there that attempt suicide or make it seem as though they are suicidal because they need attention. That doesn't seem to apply to someone who rents a handgun and with no warning, shoots themselves. That is someone who is determined to die. I'm sure that whatever reason why they wanted to die must have been horrible.

And yet all you can muster up is the suggestion that people kill themselves by strapping a cement block to their legs, sinking into the ocean and blowing their brains out so people don't have to witness it. Ugh...again how insensitive.

Your insisting that I speak as though it was is not "on." This is General Discussion on a political discussion board where news articles of a general nature are placed and discussed, not the Suicide Counselling Hotline. In fact, the admins are pretty adamant about people not offering medical advice on this board, so you're the one who might want to ratchet back your finger wagging and correct yourself.

And I never suggested "that suicidal people should throw themselves over board." See--you don't READ. You "interpret." And you interpret badly.

My remark was very conditional, painfully so--and it was that, if people are going to do it ANYWAY (terminally ill, for example), they may as well do it so that they don't traumatize the living. I guess you've never had to scoop brains off the pavement, or deal with limbs, torsos and heads scattered about, that's why you can afford to be so high-handed and superior about such things. In case you're unclear, it's not fun.

Further, to pull your 'interpretation' apart a bit more, that wasn't "all" I "could muster up." No one asked me for a laundry list, now, did they?

I'm sure you're capable of posts that are a bit more reasonable, too, that don't characterize people, that don't generalize, and that don't twist the intent of what people say.

Quite telling, how much you missed in what I had to say. But then--that's POV for ya. You definitely have one, and it clouds your ability to see anyone else's.

Either you misspoke, or you believe in some really fucked up shit. There was no hidden message notifying us your "conditions". You responded to an OP that dealt with someone who killed themselves at a shooting range. What would lead any of us to believe you were talking about terminally ill patients?

Even with a terminally ill patient, I would never suggest that someone strap a piece of concrete to themselves so they can blow their brains out after they've sunk into the ocean. That's just fucked up. There is no justifying such a stance.

There should be voluntary euthanasia for terminally ill patients. We shouldn't be encouraging them to die alone at the bottom of the ocean. Is this some sort of game to you? How could you honestly think that what you said was remotely reasonable?

For gods sake you called the body of a dead human being a fucking "carcass".

I don't understand how you could think that under any circumstance, what you said was okay. It blows my fucking mind. And yet you accuse me of being preachy? Jesus christ this is ridiculous.

You can take your 'fucked up shit' and do with it what you will. You can nitpick about words (news flash--carcasses aren't people--they're empty shells. You apparently place value of some odd sort on dead bodies--I don't). You can finger wag and scold until the cows come home, but it doesn't make you right. It just makes you rude, crude, didactic and unwilling to have a civil conversation (and that was apparent from the outset, with your first post).

Don't start in with the "there should be voluntary euthanasia" bullshit. There isn't any in this country. Wishing and hoping is not going to help the person with terminal illness TODAY. So stow that crap.

As I said, you have a POV, and it clouds your ability to listen to others. That's your issue. And it "blows my fucking mind" that you can be such a noxious, and yes, "preachy" know-it-all and make such incredible assumptions about others, and keep insisting that your view is the only "correct" one. How very lockstep of you. Jesus Christ, Allah, and Great Caesar's Ghost, this most certainly IS ridiculous, indeed.

Good night.

I'm saying that your view is the wrong way. Big difference.

I was extremely pissed off by your OP. I'm pissed off because I have experience with suicidal depression and a friend of mine just killed himself in May. I restrained myself because I don't like turning things into a shout fest. You apparently took my cool-headed posts as preachy. So now I'll let you know how I really feel.


What you said was stupid fucking bullshit. And you continue to justify your bullshit. If you are so fucking ignorant that you believe what you said to be true, god help the people around you. I really mean that. You have no fucking clue what you are talking about. Absolutely none. Anyone with any experience on this topic would never say such horrible things.

I call you out on your BS and you try to say that you were talking about something else. BULLSHIT. You got it wrong and you refuse to admit it. JUST FUCKING ADMIT. But no, you won't do that. That would require that you admit that you made a mistake.

And let's just assume for one moment that you were actually talking about terminally ill patients. Instead of agreeing to fight for someones right to die peacefully (and for your fucking information, assisted suicide/euthanasia is legal in certain parts of the US), you suggest a horrifying method so people don't have to deal with it. What you said boggles the mind.


Any one who believes that someone should kill themselves by sinking into the ocean and blowing their brains out is a FUCKING ASSHOLE. There is no excuse for what you said. Absolutely none.

My view is not "wrong"--it's simply not YOURS. And that's my 'sin.'

You need to, to quote you, "JUST FUCKING ADMIT" that you're being more than a bit of an ass at this point. You're being an offensive and personally insulting jerk.

And all the "fuckings" and the "bullshits" and the "fucking assholes" in the world aren't going to make me change my POV. Your attempt to scold-via-profanity has fallen flat, and your overblown, hyper-dramatic language should be a source of shame and embarrassment to you if you have even a shred of self-awareness.

You don't like my POV, fine. Calling me a "fucking asshole" isn't going to convince me that your view is better, or you have anything worthwhile to say. In fact, it convinces me that you don't have a good argument, so you resort to insulting me and swearing to cover for a lack of one. You show yourself with your own words to be incredibly shallow, petulant and intolerant.

There's no excuse for your conduct--none. The one who "got it wrong" is you.

I hope you are offended. I hope you think I'm a jerk. I'm a jerk to people who say such insulting, disgusting things. Maybe you'll take a moment to reflect on your stupid fucking OP.

It's not that I don't like your point of view. It's that what you believe is putrid shit. Yes, you are wrong. I already tried explaining to you why you are wrong. Now I'm just venting.

The only person who should be embarrassed here is you. You should be ashamed. And the fact that you aren't disturbs me greatly.

i'm sorry about your friend.
Thank you for the compassion you show for those who have left this world by means of suicide.
For not letting the pain that follows the loss turn into nothing but anger and rage.

I wish you comfort and peace-

This may be a "discussion board"- but behind the keyboards are real people. I think sometimes that gets forgotten.

blu~

"Stupid fucking op?" Look in the mirror.

"Putrid shit?" You clearly know a little about that.

You've got some serious growing up to do. You don't have the ability to "disturb" me, but I will say that overblown drama like yours give the place a bad name.

My second reaction was rude.

We'll let you do the clean up, though, since you apparently don't have a problem with doing that.

Tragic in many ways.

Day after day surrounded by guns and gun people? Not this cowboy.

most gun ranges I have been to are polite and professional. I personally would not choose gunshot as a method to kill myself. There are much less error prone methods out there if one had a terminal disease.

However this is an example of mental illness killing a person. Depression and other disorders can be fatal.

the range is operating normally

:nuke:

they dont shut down for a week. Or gas yourself in the garage at your condo, they still have to let people go tho their homes. Life goes on..

I wonder if this person had access to mental health care.

My friend worked at the mall and lost a week's pay.

Yes, life goes on.

With those multi-story atriums, they have a lot of practice mopping up the body and reopening for business.

That's the point in this story we are questioning.

Not due to mourning, but because the front lobby/atrium area was demolished. There was also a considerable legal problem. Management had no idea who actually attended the tea dance. Had a single person committed suicide in a room or the lobby for that matter I doubt Hyatt would have closed the hotel.

A quick search for kansas mall suicides shows nothing of the sort. Can you provide info on that claim? I only ask because of the several mall suicides I did find a story on, none were close for more than the day.

They probably mopped up the excess blood and started shooting again. Hell who knows they may have left the blood to excite some patrons.

It is just a strange line to put in a story.

What?

Nicotine poisoning works and nobody wants to ban nicotine, so use that instead.


Every time somebody is killed with a gun people come out of the woodwork to start banning guns.


People want tobacco to be available 440,000 dead per year. But they want to ban guns. This kind of thing doesn't help.

i could post pictures of a guy who blew half his face off to prove that, but i wont. Less painful, open casket. Suicide is a symptom of mental illness in a majority of cases.

would anyone want to find another way to kill themselves? It's one of the most painless ways to die. Why wouldn't you want as close to a painless end as possible if you were in pain for so much of life? Maybe CO2 poisoning with the car in the garage, but other than that, nothing would work better than what our great 2nd Amendment gives us the right to. I believe in a person's right to die as much as their right to live. People should be able to kill themselves if they want an end. I've had a friend kill himself. A lot of us have been there with the family and some of us have even probably seen the dead body. This affects people just as seeing a "naturally" dead body. The problem is the stigma that is attached to suicide. People don't like it for a number of reasons: they're being selfish, they are cowards, it was a temporary solution, they won't go to heaven, it's against my beliefs, because we simply can't explain it but try anyway by attaching labels and stigma, etc. It doesn't matter what the opinions are regarding suicide, because its going to happen. Besides, try to ban guns, it won't matter, so it's not even a real issue. A person who is dedicated to suicide will find a way to do it because it's what they want--much the same way that if people try to ban abortions, those who see no other way will attempt it.

Sad.

Back in the 1970s I bought a membership to the San Diego police range where I and a friend would go on the weekends. There was absolutely no handguns for rent: you brought your own.

I remember once someone asking me if they could come along with us if the range rented handguns, and I remember thinking, "Yeah, sure. The range is going to rent you a handgun. With requirements for I.D., waiting periods, background checks, and restrictions involved just to buy one, someone is going to rent you one! What a doofus!"

Most gun ranges that also have sales shops usually rent guns. For the business, it makes alot of sense - as it does for legitamite buyrs who want to compare how they perform but aren't made of money.

Most states don't have waiting periods, and with the advent of NICS don't really need one. Even so, because the guns are not being sold or taken off the property, no background check is needed in ohio to rent a gun. You simply must be of legal age to own that kind of firearm.

Given the nature of gun shops... I'm not sure rental legislation would have very meaningful impact on violent crime or suicide. I wouldn't consider it a wise source of criminal armament.

Buying a handgun based on how it looks in a show room case is kinda dumb.

Every gun store I have known has a no return policy. So how are you suppose to know the gun is a good fit? Guess? Keeping guessing until you get lucky?

many of the responses to the OP make.

How dare a fellow human being who saw no alternative short of death to ease their suffering dare disrupt the shooting range.
I mean really couldn't she have dug a hole lay down in it, and done the deed?
:shrug:

And why the fuck didn't she choose to continue to suffer? She had no right to seek relief, her selfish, desperate need to make everything stop was such a rude, messy, inconvenience to others. Why would she want to leave a world full of such compassion and positive connections?

:shrug:


.....

what a world, what a world

I'm sorry she felt she had to take her life, but she did it in incredibly selfish way. Those people will have to live with that image. And no, most people at ranges are target shooters, not dangerous gun psychos or whatever pet gun stereotype some have.

Why include other people if you're going to punch your own ticket? The height of self-centered behavior.

People should not be able to walk in off the street and get a gun in their hands so easily.

What kind of regulations do you want?

to show that the person has met all requirements to own or purchase a weapon according to state or local laws.

Because in most states that all you need. You do not need any specific license to purchase or own a handgun, long rifle, or shotgun.

If some states only require a simple background check, then even that would be better than no check at all.

So IF you get your way and all rentals require same NICS "instant background check" used for purchases and the number of suicides by gun ranges doesn't move or hell even increases will you just accept it.

so anything that would make that path more difficult should reduce it's use or give the person more chance to re-consider their actions.

She likely waited longer than that for a cashier if the range was busy.

However I wouldn't be opposed to NICS for firearm rentals I just don't think it will do a lot of good.

I wish her family well

me too.

:grouphug:

you are talkin' to a survivor...

almost forgot: :pals:

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that it was an accident. I don't see how it could be an accident, shooting yourself to death in a gun range, but they ruled it was an accident after 'watching the video (security) of the incident'.
dc

That's the End of her History.
You can't stop people killing themselves.

that range is only about 15 minutes from me. My brother has gone many times.