I really fear Obamacare will be Medicare Part D Part Deux

No employer mandate.

No tax on the wealthy to pay for it.

You are forced to buy the insurers' defective product.

No public option or a public option that is gutted of any advantages over private insurers.

At this point the best thing Obama can do is say: "I'm going to veto this bill and launch a campaign for Single Payer, rally support for it, and get more Democrats in the Congress that are committed to fixing Health care once and for all at a price we can afford."

The only thing good about the bill are the new regulations to rein in some of the most egregious abuses from the insurance industry. But what will the insurers do? Is Wall Street going to accept a lower return on capital? If you believe that I have some mortgage back securities to sell you. No, the insurers will "innovate" -- dream up new ways to screw you over. And it will take Congress 20 years to address these "innovations". While Congress plays slow speed whack a mole with the insurers millions of hard working Americans will go into bankruptcy or be murdered by spreadsheet.

Private Insurers are the enemy. They are the cause of our problem. They created a broken system and they rigged our government to ensure it stays broken. They killed the public option. The only way to win this battle is with a knock out punch. And that punch is HR-676. The people must demand THIS BILL. We can't leave it to the bought-off Congress to create their own bill because we know it will be filled with loopholes and whatever else the insurers pay for.

Single Payer is the only thing that will slay the beast. We need Medicare For All. We can't afford anything less.

It would be great if Obama would lead. I don't think he will and so it up to US TO LEAD. We have the power. It's time we use it.

and that ain't us. Besides, we have only hints at what "it" is... and no idea what will come out of the the resulting "conference bill" that hasn't even been started yet.

As for single payer, yes... that is what almost all progressives want. Probably what most people want when they aren't scared to death by the lies told by the other side. But I don't think we are going to get it. Not at this point.

It's refered to as ROMNEYCARE in Mass, ok? It's the model for what's going on in D.C. What would you have me call it? BAUCUSCARE? Is that better? Does this not offend our dear leader?

Just b/c right wingers use OBAMACARE as a slur b/c they hate Obama doesn't mean that they own that term.

We know that OBAMA does not mention public option anymore and has said he's open to either the public option of the co-op cop out.

Reform that leaves profit-maximizing middlemen in charge of our healthcare system is NOT reform. It's political expediency and in the long term its going to be bad politics for the Democrats as was NAFTA, Welfare reform, etc.

We need to stop sacrificing our values on the alter of centrism and bipartisanship.

Unless you are a party insider brainwashed by the trickledown DLC groupthink, the concept is pretty clear.

And they are the ones that promote it. Along with the "dear leader" crap.

President Obama doesn't call it "health care reform" anymore, he calls it "health INSURANCE reform"... which it too bad. But you have seen what the blue dogs and the GOP (the red version of blue dogs apparently) have done to any notion of real health care reform. I'm not hanging this failure on President Obama. I hope when it comes out of conference that it does SOMETHING good for us, and doesn't reward the corporations too much in the process. I've signed all the petitions, written to congress critters and Senators, and voted in every online poll that comes along. I did the Thom Hartmann campaign.

Until we either destroy all corporations or limit their ability to contribute money (or the ability of their stock holders and employees) we are screwed at real representation.

But "Obamacare" is a derogatory term used by the wing nut conservatives.

There are far too many people here willing to hand Obama the rope to hang himself with.

The individual mandate is the big story and nobody wants to talk about it. We're all distracted by the bright shiny public option, which is at best a shadow of the original proposal.

What do you think Independents and Moderates are going to think about the prospect of being fined for not buying the insurers defective product?

This might be Obama's downfall but not for the reasons the Republicans imagine.

The people want healthcare they don't want mandates.

So it does beg the question...Why are you using the term Obamacare?

And ignore that the outlines of the bill are all well known. You ignore the fact that it leaves the insurers free to undermine and evade the consquences of whatever good parts of the bill remain.

So yeah, I'm the enemy for using "Obamacare".

It will be Obamacare when he signs it.

I bet you he regrets getting on board with this process. He knows single payer is the solution. His donors and handlers told him...no no no...we need to build on what works (TM).

It's total b.s. The same people who oppose single payer oppose OBAMA-BAUCUS-"AMERICARE" whatever you want to call it, so why not fight for the best solution? Because the people who run the Democratic party with thier $4,600 checks are all in bed with corporate power. We all know it. Obama had to kiss their rings to get elected. It's time for him to break with them and stand up for real reform. That's called leadership.

you are supposed to just assume a solution for the health care crisis will be enacted soon. If it turns out to be great for the working class, the President should get all the credit. If it turns out to be nothing more than status quo, blame it all on Blue Dogs and Republicons.

But whatever you do, don't you ever call it Obamacare! Try to keep your focus on what is most important in all this: Barack Obama's image.

See you reminded me what's most important and you didn't even have to be rude, cast aspersions, or violate the DU TOS! Bravo to you! The DU centrism-apologist brigade could learn from you!

No thanks. We are the government, the fact that we have been shut out of this debate is all the proof needed that the result of this debacle will be worse than nothing.

The only thing stopping a HR676 type of plan is the collusion of politicians and corporate parasites (and the large overlap of the two) preventing us from participating in the process. "Wait and see" only results in seeing what has been done to you after the fact.

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" - Benjamin Franklin

Use the same tactic Bush used to get his tax cuts passed. All you need is 50 senators + biden as tie breaker. Doing that you can get a strong public option, no exclusions for pre existing conditions or recissions, tax hikes on the wealthy, employer mandates and penalties for violation, etc.

If we get a system where we are forced to buy private insurance that still finds ways to rescind and exclude the sick, then it will be proof our democracy is a plutocracy. Obama said in 2003 'we have to win the house, senate and the white house' to get single payer. We gave the dems super majorities and clear victories in all 3. If all they can give us is corporate welfare and universal healthcare that not only fails to control costs (by not giving us a more efficient and cheaper public option), but also forces 50 million americans to buy defective private insurance, then there will be a massive backlash.

On the good side, it could empower the public to become more civic. Bush was great for waking the public up and making them less apathetic. If the healthcare bill is proof that we are a corporate plutocracy, that could do the same thing. It could increase voter turnout, public education, small donations, etc. and 5-10 years down the road we could see grassroots changes that never would've happened had it not been so obvious that we have descended into plutocracy.

I'm such an optimist.

What's the purpose of the Finance committee doing its little temper trantrum and gutting out everything good that came out of the house? Is it just cover for bluedog incumbents?

And there are a ton of problems with the Public Option. To call what's coming out of the House "robust" is an out and out lie. Look at the history of the Public Option proposal. It's come a long way baby! In the wrong direction.

As long as we let private insurers live they will continue to manipulate congress into undermining what ever survives the process in D.C.

If the glass is half full we might win this battle. I want to end the war. We have to go nuclear on the Private Insurers and destroy them before they have time to regroup and rearm.

Sadly the Democratic leadership in D.C can't think past 2010.

Senate first. Two different bills have to pass the House and Senate first. Obama's entire plan is to fix it in the conference committee but you have to get it there first and you have to have what you want included in at least one of the Bills.

Bush's medicare RX bill was initially passed by a bipartisan group in the Senate which included Ted Kennedy - then they totally changed the Bill in the conference between the House and Senate and Kennedy and the Dems fought it.

No - he could NOT end it tomorrow. He doesn't have a friggin magic wand he can wave over the Capitol and make everything work the way he wants.

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Do you care about getting a bill done, any bill so that you can say you got Health care done in 2010?

Or do you care about doing it right so that the whole effort doesn't come back and bite you in the ass, embolden the very interests that prevent reform and foul up the system, and make healthcare worse?

And nice way to insinuate I'm some right-wing freeper over here supporting single payer. Suprised you didn't all me a "purist".

Funny how the same old characters pop up to question the motives of anybody who doesn't drink the Centrist coolaid. You can count them on one hand and they never seem to raise the ire of the moderators even when they violate the TOS.

They got away with things like NAFTA and the Telecom bill because people didn't see a direct impact on their lives.

But this is totally different.

The best they can hope for is to scrub any 'mandates' and give people an election cycle or two to figure out they didn't get single payer after all.

and make their voices and their wants known to their reps during the recess. he was a long-time community organizer- maybe he's applying some societal psychology to it...and maybe he wants to gauge the level of public discontent to determine how hard to push in which direction...? :shrug:

nah.

we're going to get another corporacrat legislative fuck the citizens special.

and that really really REALLY sucks.

dammit.

Or at least THAT should have been the starting point in negotiations with the crazies who want to keep the status quo.

Maintaining the obscene health-care denial industry can not result in anything other than more needless death and suffering, period.
:kick: & R

:evilgrin: