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Trying to re-educate my (newly) RW younger sister. My reply is in blocks.

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DCKit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 08:42 PM
Original message
Trying to re-educate my (newly) RW younger sister. My reply is in blocks.
I honestly do see where you're coming from, but I don't want the government dictating my healthcare choices. The pharmaceutical companies purposely keep us sick to keep the healthcare machine going. The side effects are not known for years. I can't believe the lists of medications most of our patients are on and they tell them there are no side effects. The meds are working against each other. It's very rare to have a patient over 65 that is only on one or two medications. If I could get out of healthcare, I would. The only times we use our insurance is to have surgery.

Of course you don't want the government deciding your health care options. But what's the alternative? The insurance companies make their money by denying care, canceling policies and/or shifting the expensive patients to Medicare and Medicaid - and then, quite often after it's too damn late to make a difference in the outcome. At least 20,000 die every year after their claims are denied or their surgery is deemed unneccessary or "experimental". "Medicare for All" may not be much better than "Corporate Care", but it couldn't possibly be any worse. If you have a better option, I'd love to hear it. As for the drug companies, have you heard of "Fossjaw"? Fosamax kills bone tissue in 4% of the women who take it for osteoporosis, most often in the jaw and hip. Then there's the news that Paxil and Prozac are implicated for causing birth defects.

You are correct, if they ever came up with a cure for any disease, they'd bury it. Maintenance of disease is far more profitable. And we continue to allow them to get away with it with an FDA (and other regulatory agencies) run by the very people who they're supposed to be regulating. Ask yourself, why is the AMA defending the health insurance industry when 72% of physicians approve of "Medicare for All" (a.k.a. "Single Payer")? That 30% difference between what Medicare/Medicaid and the insurance companies pay for services is the administrative cost of billing the insurance companies - and the AMA has an apparent interest in keeping that segment of doctors/hospital services alive, so who are the doctors who own those medical billing companies, and how much are they paying the AMA to keep their businesses alive and profitable? It's clearly not the rank and file being represented by the AMA, or they'd be hollering for a public option.


The corporations are in bed with the government and they do not have our best interests in mind. The stimulus package is NOT going to the ones that need it. Only the rich and CEO's are benefiting. We still have many people out of work and homeless. I have patients asking me if I know anyone that's hiring. Your niece has been looking for months - there are no jobs available. You're lucky if you're working. And what's with the Onward Christian Soldier comment? We all know Blackwater has been doing some pretty nasty things over there. They will look the other way if their guys are able to get their rocks off and do the job.

Erik Prince, the owner of Blackwater, now Xe (get it? Christ-y?) is a rabid Dominionist. The type that believes God gave man dominion over the earth to exploit it, not to cherish and care for it. He has also stated it is his mission (from God) to wipe out the Muslims. The comment was not leveled at you.

Blackwater/Xe employees are kidnapping, imprisoning and using children for their sexual gratification (not that it would be any better if it were adults) and the backlash from the Muslim world is going to last for decades. Blackwater/Xe, by it's very presence, is making our soldiers less safe, keeping Iraq in a state of turmoil and endangering our national security. Yet we're dropping money on them to the tune of $20 million a pop - to put us at risk. It makes my head hurt.


So far you've called me racist and a war monger. I am not either of these things, neither am I against change. I believe in self reliance and the community looking out for each other. There are local programs that pick up the slack. Our hospital wipes out bills for patients based on income. There is also assistance with mortgages, utilities and food. That's another thing - global warming is a hoax. The cap and trade bill will require you to have a government inspection and update your home if it doesn't meet their "green" requirements. If you can't do it, you can't sell. It will also drive up the cost of utilities to cover the costs of their program. Taxes won't be increased with these new bills? Bull!!

I did not call you a racist. I was simply hoping to point out that organizers and sponsors of this domestic terrorism are using what are called "dog whistles" to rile up the racist, nationalistic, willfully ignorant, religiously insane and terminally angry segments of our society, as in "ACORN" = "Scary Black People". They are fearmongers preying on the uninformed and willfully ignorant and using racist and religious code words to do so. As for Rush and others calling the (D)s Nazis, you have to be pretty ignorant of history to ignore the parallels between these town hall disruptors, their organizers and Hitlers Brownshirts - it's exactly the same tactic the Nazis used to gain power.

Further, what Rush (especially Rush) does is called "projection" - blaming your opposition for acts you, yourself engage in. Another key tactic lifted directly from the Nazi playbook. How long do you think Obama would retain any degree of popularity if he were to begin putting RW protesters in "Free Speech Zones" or requiring I.D. and loyalty oaths for all who entered his speaking engagements? The media pundits would be screaming 24/7 if the (D) leadership even approached the tactics that Bush used from 1999-2008 to stifle opposition, but where were they THEN? Laughing at the "libruls" behind the wire fences, that's where.

I don't know where you got your information on Cap and Trade, but wow. Just wow. However, if that is what you believe, just be glad you live in a small, newer house and think about all the jobs that will be created for the government inspectors, the factory workers (who make insulation and energy efficient equipment) and the installers. As far as the cost of utilities, they're making record profits - as are the people who play the commodities markets and drive up the prices of oil, natural gas, coal and grain - which not only impact the cost of energy, but the cost at the grocery store, as well, and doubly so - higher cost of wheat, corn and rice + higher cost to farm and transport those items. Deregulation of business, banking and Wall St. was demanded by the Republican majority and assented to by the corporate owned Democrats (a.k.a. "Blue Dogs" and "DLC") and those regulations and laws that remained on the books were not enforced. Now we get to pay for it.

If you want to see the price at the pump reduced, demand that your Congressmen and Senator introduce legislation to keep Goldman Sachs (and all the others) from using OUR money to manipulate the commodities markets just so they can screw us AGAIN as well as the reregulation of commodities trading, banking, corporations and Wall St.. A year into the bailout and they're all posting record profits again. It couldn't possibly stink any worse.


I just don't like the speed with which this administration is pushing these agendas. Congress and the senate need to read the bills before they sign them and at least let the public have a say in them - that's their job. The constitution and bill of rights restricted the federal govenment for a reason. They have gotten way out of hand and much too large.

Every member of Congress has a (often bloated and incredibly expensive) staff to read these bills and provide a synopsis. The (D) majority has rarely (in direct contrast to the (R) dominated Congress of 1994-2006) "rammed" anything through. If they say they haven't read it, you can bet either: a) a staffer read it and passed on it or b) they just don't give a shit. Given that much of our legislation seems to be written by corporate interests to benefit corporate interests, and that much of Congress is owned by those same corporate interests.... well, you know where I'm going.


The pork projects have become ridiculous and our taxpayer money is going to crap that shouldn't be funded. I agree that Medicare and VA are seriously underfunded. Medicaid should be scrapped and start over. Children defnitely should be covered, but I see people who are covered and can't figure out why. They are able bodied adults and a lot of them work - there is so much abuse of the system. Our medicaid patients are the most demanding and actually come in and demand we give them narcotic medications because the goverment has given them the impression they are entitled to whatever they want. Most of the drugs are then abused or sold on the street. There are people on disability simply because someone diagnosed them with an easily treatable "disease". I'm so sick of suppporting these slugs. I'm also for congress, senate and the pres having to pay for their own healthcare and stop the lifetime salary for doing their job. They can get their own retirement plan. I think they would really read the bills if they applied also to them.

Sure there are lots of things that shouldn't be funded that are - $1 billion every three days for Iraq and Afghanistan comes to mind quite readily - along with a military budget that exceeds the military cost of every other nation in the world, combined as well as the fabled "War on Drugs", which exists solely to continue funding for the DEA (and supplemental funding to others), eliminate hemp from our public lands (not the same as marijuana, but 90% of the "catch") and to keep the privately owned prisons profitably full of non-violent offenders. Get rid of those and we'd be able to pay for health care, K-Doctorate education for all and invest in infrastructure and energy independence - while also paying off our national debt.

Additionally, if we'd simply closed our borders (by actually paying attention) to people that shouldn't be here in the first place (or even reinforced the flimsy cockpit doors), 9/11 couldn't have happened. But the Military/Industrial/Congressional Complex doesn't make any money without conflict. 9/11 was a happy "accident" just begging to be exploited, so the cracks in the system were ignored and remained open. Read "The Shock Doctrine" by Naomi Klein. Seriously, how many FBI/CIA agents and citizens should it take the get the message out that they were here and an attack was imminent? Not to mention the fact that BushCo quashed any investigations into Saudi funding of the 9/11 hijackers - the actual villains of 9/11 - a fact that went almost completely unreported by the corporate mass media.

Bin Laden didn't hate the U.S. (he's very dead, by the way), he hated our support of the government of Saudi Arabia where he wished to establish an Islamic state - and, coincidentally, control the oil wealth of that country himself. And anyone who believes the TSA screenings at the airport, harassing grandmothers (and large breasted women) and putting toddlers on the "No-Fly" list is keeping us safe from terrorism is seriously underestimating the dedication of terrorists. It's window dressing. Very expensive window dressing.

Everything BushCo* did "to make us safe" either increased the size and control of the Federal government, or funneled money directly into private coffers - trillions of dollars of our money. But we didn't hear a peep about the cost then. What was different when Bush and his cohorts were doubling the national debt, increasing the power of the federal government, trashing the Constitution and Bill of Rights and raiding the treasury to the benefit of private corporations? I mean aside from having a black man in the WH, Democrats in the majority and a program to benefit the people on the agenda?

The threat to corporate profits and power, that's what. And when the corporations run government, it's fascism.
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katanalori Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. Great job!
Hope she is a reader and that her mind is not closed.
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joecool65 Donating Member (262 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Osama bin Laden...
...hates health care for all!
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DCKit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Jeebus. You scared the shit out of me.
I saw your header and immediately hit the "Edit" button for fear I'd inadvertently written "Obama Bin Laden."

Thanks for the heart attack.
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Hawkeye-X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
3. Also Erik Prince has been implicated for murder...
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Historic NY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
5. I guess she is for higher state & local taxes along with an increase in fees...
I believe in self reliance and the community looking out for each other. There are local programs that pick up the slack. Our hospital wipes out bills for patients based on income. There is also assistance with mortgages, utilities and food. That's another thing - global warming is a hoax. The cap and trade bill will require you to have a government inspection and update your home if it doesn't meet their "green" requirements. If you can't do it, you can't sell. It will also drive up the cost of utilities to cover the costs of their program. Taxes won't be increased with these new bills? Bull!!


Self-reliance...where she living Little house on the Prairie. It obvious she doesn't believe all these costs are just pass along to her. Without a plan the cost will continue to escalate & we will continue to pay more & more for less & less.

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snake in the grass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-11-09 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. Self-reliance and rugged individualism are...
...bogus arguments anyway. I'm sure Rush gets wood when he imagines all those rugged men in the wilderness, sweating and shirtless as they toil away at carving out their existence, but the truth of the matter is, no one living within a community is self-reliant. We use the common roads, we need the fire departments and the police, we are dependent upon energy supplied to us by others, and the list continues. Self-reliance is living like the Unabomber. Furthermore, the more wealthy one is, the more dependent one is upon others. The canard of self-reliance is facepalm stupidity at its worst.
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geckosfeet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
6. She seems more libertarian than RW. What does she suggest for millions of people
Edited on Mon Aug-10-09 09:21 PM by geckosfeet
without any health care, and no means of obtaining it?

What does she expect a middle aged employed couple who get sick, lose their jobs, lose their insurance and have tens if not hundreds of thousands of currency units in health care expenses to do?

No one is suggesting anything near dictating peoples health care choices - except your sister and her friends. They are telling the folks I mentioned above that they don't deserve health care. I'd say that's dictating.

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DCKit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Her apparent hatred of the people she treats was our first argument.
The wingers don't want the unworthy to get health care on their dime, even if it means doing without or paying far more. It's really, really sad.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
8. You lost me here
"You are correct, if they ever came up with a cure for any disease, they'd bury it. Maintenance of disease is far more profitable. And we continue to allow them to get away with it with an FDA (and other regulatory agencies) run by the very people who they're supposed to be regulating."

For gawd's sake, take off that tinfoil hat! The universities, working on NIH grants, are indeed looking for better treatments and cures all the time. The FDA isn't preventing any of them from getting to market unless testing shows they're worse than the disease and/or kill people. The problem with the FDA, especially under the last rotten administration, is that it facilitated hiding adverse effects to medicine so that the drug companies could milk the profits a little bit longer.

The problem with Fosamax is well known and related either to high dose infusions given to cancer patients or to a specific gene in some patients. It's hardly like it's big news to any healthcare professionals and it's ridiculous to sensationalize it. Remember, 96% of patients with osteoporosis have their bone loss stopped, and that's damned good odds.

Your comment on the 30% overhead was right on the money, but that overhead also includes multimillion dollar salaries for executives, profits to stockholders, and platoons of office workers whose jobs it is to deny coverage, deny care, and rescind policies to save the company money.

And that's where the 20,000 deaths a year come from, along with a lot of bankruptcies among people who weren't ready to die yet.
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DCKit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. The Universities working off those grants aren't Corporate Drug Companies.
And, granted, 4% isn't huge, but the company declined to post the risk on their packaging, so doctors didn't know what to look for among the adverse reactions.

As to the rest, thanks for the compliment. I think.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-11-09 02:32 AM
Response to Original message
11. sorry- but i couldn't get past this line...
"You are correct, if they ever came up with a cure for any disease, they'd bury it."

complete horseshit.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-11-09 07:02 AM
Response to Original message
12. Your sister doesn't seem right wing at all -- just confused, but with good sentiments
Most people I know in health care come to have a *ahem* jaundiced attitude toward patients. You see a lot, you see people at their worst and you see all types. There is a lot of abuse in the system, and she is right about the drug companies and the way they use elderly people as profit centers.

Try to be sympathetic, and help her channel her anger at the real causes of abuse. Don't accuse her or make her defensive. She seems like the type who could be reasoned with to support health care overhaul so long as you allay her fears.

Help her turn her anger at the corporations in health care -- the drug companies and insurance companies -- which she obviously hates, to support for reform.
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