Employee of the NHS here (Scotland)

One or two things:

Publically funded universal health care, is, as far as I'm concerned, a defining characteristic of civilised societies. It's a decider for me, and would prevent me from wanting to move to the States (which I did consider, once).

I have no idea what to make of the right wing's attitude in your country, none. If the right over here in the UK so much as whispers opposition to the health service, they'll lose their seat come election. They know this. It's as untouchable over here as the military is over on your side of the pond.

I don't understand the logic that the right is following. I can understand the logic that the insurance companies are following certainly, but not the right. It should simply be a losing position.

Why aren't they attempting to capitalise on the whopping 70ish% that want reform? I CANNOT understand it. It can't possibly simply be their bizarre mental allergy to "socialism", they can't possibly think the UK is a "socialist" country!

How on EARTH did people's thinking about health get so screwed up that they allowed the expenses incurred in treating disease fall under the influence of insurance companies?

Insurance is for accidents, for catastrophes, for the *unexpected*. I's ridiculous to take good health for granted as a sort of God-given state of being. I know of no one person in my life that hasn't required medical treatment, it's not an unexpected event, it's not even simply a "possibility" it's a certainty. I've a nasty feeling that some Americans think being sick is sort of unnatural and wrong, like being poor, and don't want to think about it. It's not unnatural, decay is the way of nature. ALL biological systems develop faults. ALL of them, there is not one part of the human body that hasn't a bloody bible of diseases and cures specific to it. If you are human, you are going to get old and get sick and DIE. This is not in question. The least a nation can ask of its people is to pay a small amount of money to prepare for and ameliorate the utterly inevitable biological problems that will face its populace. This being the case it is utterly immoral to allow insurance companies ANY influence over the treatment of the sick. AT. ALL.

That's the central idea I'm trying to get across here. There should be no profiteer involvement in healthcare, not because it's preferential to the rich but because it's founded on stupid assumptions about reality. It's no different from some con man putting on a uniform and standing at the gates of a cemetery demanding entrance fees at funerals. Yes! My views are that "extreme"! Not even the RICH should be charged!

The NHS has a lot of problems (and I mean a LOT, There's no point beating around the bush, it's far from being a perfect system. It's slow, unwieldy, difficult to manage and slow to adapt to change), but there is no way in heaven hell or earth that I'm going to allow my politicians to swap it for a private system. That would be like handing the police over to McDonald's or something.

I was about seventeen when I found out that America didn't have a fully comprehensive public health service funded by the taxpayer. I didn't believe the person who told me. I mean for days. I didn't believe it until my parents (both doctors) confirmed it.

Your politicians are no different from ours and never have been, they don't give a shit about you. The only way you can get them to do what you want is to FORCE them to do what you want. Don't "support" them! Force THEM to support YOU! That's what they're for!

I apologise if this is preaching to the choir, but I've been reading this site for a while now without posting and seeing a lot of people essentially giving up in despair - you must understand this - you CANNOT give up in despair - that just makes things worse, and faster than the rate at which they're getting worse already!

So, anyway. I'm sure a lot of you feel very patronised now. Sorry.

Yours,

a (very) concerned non-American.

Whatever Democrats are proposing, they're against it even though they stand to benefit from it.

Think of them as football hooligans. That's exactly the depth and breadth of their reasoning process.

This must seem awfully odd to you, our battling right now over something that should seem to be an obvious human right. I think it's because we have allowed corporate interests to frame the debate -- and spread all kinds of lies. It reminds me of the civil rights struggles of the '50's and '60's.

Another concerned non-American here!

Health care is a basic human right, as far as I'm concerned.

For that matter, Canada is looking tempting too.

Thanks for your post. k&r

:dem:

-Laelth

So tempting, in fact, that a few of us lifelong Georgians are loading up the truck like a bunch of 21st century Clampetts and heading north in 2010. :-)

Lol just kidding but I'm glad to know I'm not alone in wanting to move elsewhere, at least for a little while.

We are out of work, out of unemployment and basically broke. If it were not for my elderly mother, we would be homeless and starving. My husband is diabetic and the best we can come up with for his care is the "free" VA system. Yeah right, we just got a bill for $72.00 from them for prescriptions. That doesn't even count the $4.00 prescriptions that we get from WM or the ones that VA won't cover. Right now, my husband has his foot bandaged and bloody from a blister on it. We are trying to decide if we go to the local doctor and pay $45.00 for an office call or drive 70 miles to VA for an office call and spend the money in gasoline. What a country!

...with cabins where all my expat liberal pals can come to stay. :-)

I , myself, am in the process of gathering all the necessary paperwork in order to gain Irish citizenship by descent....my paternal grandfather came to the U.S. in 1895.....

Slainte!!! (that's to your health in Irish Gaelis)

who also have enjoyed national health care for decades.
I have relatives in both countries.

and they don't pay for insurance unless they just want to purchase ti.

Not just because of the NHS. It's green and beautiful. That driving on the left side is a bit weird, though.

Which is another reason it is very tempting to leave America. The only thing holding us here is my elderly mother. There are no jobs here and doesn't seem to even be possibility of jobs. At least he could return to England (or Scotland) and get the health care he needs.

I love it there and can't wait to go back for my next visit. The people are the greatest (except for one nasty, grumpy old shopkeeper somewhere in the north of Aberdeenshire).

I'm getting pretty fucking sick of "my" country.

We have a government of the corporations, for the corporations, and by the corporations. Only dollars count, never people. The rich get everything they want while the bottom 98% suffer. We are stuffed to overflowing with ignorant, uneducated, ill-informed, hyper-religious people who listen only to voices like that of Glenn Beck and take every paranoid rant as absolute truth, screaming down reforms that would benefit them and their families. Everyone cheats; laws are broken routinely at every level. People here text while they drive, for God's sake!

We have become a nation of fat, lazy idiots. If it weren't for my ties to friends and family, I would have been out long ago. It just doesn't feel like home the way it used to. It is extremely sad to watch what is happening.

Thanks for your insight - and welcome to DU! :toast:

There is logic behind the opposition to stymie a national health care system in America. In short, it's all about wealth -- that is, preserving the private insurance companies wealth, the pharma corp's wealth, preserving Wall St. wealth...

Corporate America has a lot of people working for it which can concoct sophisticated, elaborate public relations schemes at a moment's notice (coordinating angry mobs to storm town hall meetings, for example). For the most part, Wall St/corporations control both the mainstream media and key U.S. politicians. Therefore, wealthy corporate interests control American public policy.

:thumbsup:

well done

Capt. Hilts, a direct descendant of Robert the Bruce.

Welcome aboard!

It's nice to hear now and then from someone who lives in a sane country.
I should say, "refreshing."

We did, and we're not better than you.

I think the left's enemies in the States are powerful and numerous, but not as numerous as the left. Just a bit more to go and the right in the States could perish completely.

their are certainly some in america, well-read, with open minds who would be considered politically left leaning anywhere but most who vote for democrats are much more politically in the center than they are to the left.
many democrats are embarrassed by politically left positions and arguments and work tirelessly to demonize and marginalize the left.
the word "liberal" has become an epithet. rather than defend liberals democrats became progressives.
it would be nice if republicans or conservatives would disavow the extreme reactionaries who populate their party.
wait! some-thing's amiss! liberals are supposed to be the inclusive ones?
who knows? maybe there are many americans who are politically left leaning. but for the most part they are hiding if they exist.

the reactionary Right in this country needs a wake-up call - they aren't capable to listening to us, but they can be successfully smacked-down by those who live in countries that have had universal health coverage for decades

Recent comments from them about my place of work have not gone down well with me.

had a discussion with my rabid right wing neighbor about health care reform. After a convoluted discussion it finally came out that he just regards people who do not have insurance as losers who he does not want to help because in effect they are stealing money from people who are not such losers. He wants to limit his help for others to the people he selects from his church.
this is the logic of a retired superintendent of schools.

But here is my question to you. He just returned from a trip to Ireland where the bus driver told him the tax rate for Irish citizens is 45% plus the taxes on gasoline and other goods. Being Irish myself it was all I could do not to ask if he gave the guy a big tip.

Is the income tax rate (45%) that high for Ireland or Scotland?
Thank you

It's 20% for anything under £35,000 and 40% or thereabouts for above 35,000, I think.

that is high but the 20% is similar to ours. The wealthy here are offered numerous tax breaks to keep their percentage quite low to nearly nothing.

Regarding your anger (in a previous post) about comments made about NHS by the RW - that is their method. People who do not accept their view are personally smeared, ridiculed and otherwise trashed. They live in a mental state of war against their fellow citizens. Now they have gone international.

I'd probably be out of a job.

If they could reach across the pond and destroy the NHS, they would. It just scalds their asses that the rest of the world has "socialized medicine". I've never gotten a wing-nut to explain to me if those countries had it so bad, why they didn't cast off their system and adopt ours. Their eyes glaze over just pondering the question.

And it's difficult not to suspect influence from overseas in that, though I've no knowledge of it.

Her and Saint Ronnie Reagan shared an ideological kinship and we have a talk show host (Thom Hartmann) who often mentions Thatcher and Reagan sharing certain ideological goals for governing.

Very dangerous for NHS, that time. We won out, though, which is amazing, given how much else she managed to kick over.

They'd have to take on the other 26 EU countries. :) Over here socialized healthcare isn't even a conversation topic, we all have it.

That's what they're in bidness for.

are taxes + health care costs?

That is the comparison.

Is paying the insurance companies so much better than paying the government?

the man I was talking with has Medicare!

They use the foreign tax rate to scare people because the idiots are not factoring their health care costs being replaced by anything but rather added to.

I live in Slovenia where our total tax burden is some 51%. Hell, even when I type that number, I scare myself. Now... let's see what that covers:
- free healthcare for my family
- the above includes dental, eye care, all medicines, hospital stays, preexisting conditions....
- if someone in my family has no regular income, he's listed as my "dependent". I get a tax break and he's covered by my health insurance
- free college education for my kids (yes, free.)
- pension insurance (US stock-based pension funds are as shocking to us as private healthcare)
- unemployment benefits (for a period of 1-2 years after losing a regular job)
- 1 year maternity leave
- 3 week paternity leave
- paid sick leave
- 23-30 paid holiday (5 weeks) per year

Surely there's thousands of other benefits I can't think of right now, but that's the basic idea. Sure, taxation can be higher, and we end up with less money in the pocket, but we're snug and secure. We know for sure that we'll never be denied healthcare, all our kids can go to college even if we're low on money, we won't be hungry in a month even if our company collapses, and nobody can rob us of our pension. It's a sense of security I gladly pay taxes for.


Edit: I went to look at some of the other benefits, and it's a fairly stunning list. In the interest of brevity, I'll only list the ones that apply to parenthood:
- 1 full year paid maternity (salary matched to salary held before birth, capped at 2.5x average salary)
- 3 weeks paternity leave in the first 6 months
- shorter working hours for 1 parent until the child is 3 years old (employing company compensated by the national budget)
- 4-child families - national budget permanently pays a parent an average salary if he chooses to stay home to care for kids full time
- parenthood assistance - a lump sum payment at birth of a child to cover purchases of baby care necessities (some 500 usd)
- child care assistance - if the family income is below the national average (even by 1%), one parent receives a monthly payout by the govt (I think it's around $200) per underage child
- large family assistance - annual payment for families with 3+ kids under 18 (or under 26 if attending school)- $600
- special needs child assistance - $150 to $300 monthly for children with special care needs, depending on severity
- special needs salary compensation - salary comp for a parent who has to care full-time for a special needs child.


The above is just related to kids, there's lists like that for retirement, unemployment, education, and god knows what else. :)

when comparing the different tax rates I think here in the US it is just broken down so it doesn't feel or look like it's that much but when we take into account the following things coming out of our paycheck (I'll use my tax bracket and my state of Maine as an example):
-Social Security (6.20%)
-Medicare (1.45%)
-State Income Tax (Maine: $1,033 plus 8.5% of excess over $20,150)
-Federal Income Tax (25% on the income between $33,950 and $82,250; plus $4,675)

And then of course for those of us who have it:
-Health Ins
-Dental Ins

I would not think it is outlandish to say that we pay close, if not the same in taxes.

It is always enlightening to see how the land of freedom that supposedly stands for "Family Values" and "loves" children (OK, I really meant fetuses; once they're born, children are regarded only as future consumers) actually measures up against other industrialized or industrializing countries.
If we took our basic tax rates and added in our health insurance premium payments, supplemental and co-payments and the balance of health care costs that we pay out of pocket, I am sure the total would amount to much much more than 51% of our respective incomes. In the meantime, it is the insurance companies who profit and we remain screwed.
But we're "free."
HA!

I make over that amount here and I pay about 30% in taxes, but I also spend another 25% on my families health insurance policies (as a small business owner I get screwed and have to pay over 1200 a month for catastrophic care which doesn't even cover the 200 a month for my presecription medications, etc)

So after my taxes and health care I'm paying well over 50% if you include them in.

... in most states you end up with a tax rate similar to a lot of European countries. On top of that you have to add health care costs, etc. So basically you end up paying more money for the same services.

Salaries are higher here though, and sales tax lower. So if material stuff is your thing, the USA is still the place to be.

Here, people pay Fed and State Income taxes, plus Social Security taxes. Added to that they pay Insurance premiums which range from around $300 (which means they will be under-insured and have to pay many of their own med. bills) to, for a family around $12,000. Average rates are probably around $5,000 a year. Most plans include very little for dental care or eye care, and if someone gets really sick, they may end up losing their job, and their healthcare, and eventually everything. That is why most bankruptcies are caused by sickness. Our system is inhumane and a disgrace. Over 22,000 people die, probably more, each year as a result of not having healtcare.

When the Right talks about taxes being high in Europe, they never include those premiums and other medical bills, co-pays etc. that Americans pay. Those premiums should be called 'healthcare taxes'. If we were to go to a single payer system, those premiums would go away. So even if taxes were raised a little, we would probably still be paying less. It makes NO sense not to have a single payer system.

As for why the rightwing is fighting against healthcare reform? They use Socialism as a scare tactic, but it's about money. Most of our Congressmembers take money from the Healthcare industry, sadly even our presidential candidates were pretty much bought and paid for. And that is why they are working for them rather than the American people. We don't have enough money to bribe them.

considering what you get, it's small.

welcome to DU. :hi:

:hi:

You summed up the situation brilliantly, and I thank you for it.

I envy you for living in a sane country that has the decency enough to provide the most basic of human RIGHTS, health care. The problem here in the US is that people are so god damn gullible and easily controlled/manipulated by the status quo (insurance companies). What's sad is that a system like the one you have over there in Scotland isn't even on the table, the solution is so obvious and yet it's not even considered.

I don't blame you for not moving here, this country isn't any "greater" than any other of the industrialized nations imo and in a lot of areas it's worse. Unless of course it's our military but big deal! The right in this country seems to have an obsession over it though, they're almost barbaric.

I have no doubt we will win the health care battle here but by that time it will be long over due. But that seems to be common here in the US, we always do the right thing last. Anyways thanks for your input.

Over here, sometimes you start to wonder if you yourself aren't really the crazy one - everyone else seems to be so much opposed to reform. And then you read this. Thanks. Oddly, I feel better (even though nothing has changed a whit - at least I know I'm not crazy.)

where vast resources, both human and natural, are exploited for the enrichment of a few.
the attitude that this model sponsors is wasteful and not sustainable. its not designed to be.
capitalism, as it is practiced in the united states, pits citizens against each other for too few scraps thrown our direction.
we have been taught to scorn and hate poor people. so successfully that even poor people hate poor people.
the poor are always poor due to bad choices they made or negative personal characteristics.
it is foolish to help the poor because you will encourage their laziness.
if all americans enjoyed single payer health care it would blur the lines between the "at least i'm not that bad offs" and the merely "bad offs" and we would discover we are all in bad shape.
if the uber-class wants to keep those with marginal existence content there has to be a fate worse for them to fear.

Here is the e mail he sent me, answering all my questions:

Hi Pat,
Re your questions about the NHS - a few answers below - but Im no expert.


Is there really a long waiting list for elective surgery (say hip and knee replacements, etc.)

It seems to vary with where you live ( each area has its own NHS Trust that decides how funding is used) - Generally I think its about 3 to 12 months

Can you get private insurance to eliminate the need to go on the waiting list for your elective procedure?

Private Ins is widely available - I am enclosing a newspaper ad. with Jacks funeral program ( By airmail) with various costs. You can 'supplement' NHS with private insurance at a lower cost - eg routine illness covered by NHS and more urgent by Insurance

If so, is the private insurance really expensive? see above

Is there a shortage of specialists, which contributes to the waiting time?
To the best of my knowledge there is not a shortage eg. When I had a heart problem - referral and treatment was immediate

Does the NHS cover preventitive screening such as colonoscopies, etc.?
Preventative screening has recently been given a priority and is now fairly common

The vast majority of people are in favour if the NHS and regard it as one of the better elements of our social service

http://www.performance.doh.gov.uk/waitingtimes/index.htm

The link "Historical Time Series" (.xls file) gives you a spreadsheet of waiting times, going back to 1987 with the number who were waiting more than a given number of weeks.

Waiting times used to be a problem; but it became a political problem, so governments (both Tory and Labour) started measuring hospitals on it, and giving them some more money, and the times have come down a lot as a result.

So, for instance, in 1987, 826,000 were on an inpatient waiting list, and 207,000 had been on it for more than 12 months. That slowly started getting better around 1989. By the time Labour got in in 1997, the total waiting list was 1,190,000; over 12 months 47,000. By June 2003, the TWL was 993,000, and over 12 months just 220; by April 2006 it seems no-one had a waiting time of more than 9 months, and the total waiting list is now under 600,000.

Or you can look at the median and mean waiting times:
1988 21.7 45.3
1993 13.8 19.6
1998 14.8 20.0
2003 11.9 15.6
2008 4.5 5.6

There are similar figures for times between a GP refering someone for an outpatient appointment, and them being seen; Sept 2008 the median wait time was 2.6 weeks, mean 3.2 weeks; in 2004 (1st time the published median and mean), it was 5.2 and 5.9 weeks. At the worst, in Sept 1999, over 512,000 people had been waiting for an outpatient appointment more than 13 weeks; that figure is now just 686.

and most people in the US have no idea that there are at least 30 industrialized countries
with national health care and that they are the norm, we are the odd.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR POSTING THIS OP>

That's all you need to know. They're not very bright and they believe what they're told, and a lot of money is being spent telling them what to believe.

They don't care and choose to dismiss the facts. Bottom line, they think poor people should be punished. Most of my discussions lead back to their hatred of poor people - even the less fortunate among the republicans.

That's the kicker. Check this guy in the second video - "I need medicine, I need teeth, but I don't need more taxes!" (paraphrased quote from memory, about to watch it again)

http://hotairpundit.blogspot.com/2009/08/protesters-come-out-for-obamas-visit-to.html

them being poor and suffering but refuse to believe anything other than the garbage their being spoon fed by their party.

And i think your advice is spot on. And we should not ever give up.
But i had a thought when I read this....In some ways the UK is fortunate in that they have a long history of kings ruling them. And the thing is that a king is a visible ruler....Here in the states we are also ruled by kings but they are not the visible ones and so we are in the dark about how that power is used.

the Repubs would be on the chopping block if they ever tried to get rid of Social Security or Medicare, and the axe men would be their own "right wing" constituents. If universal health care was amongst these other socialized government programs we already have, you can bet your bottom dollar that you'd have to pry it from the cold dead hands of the same kind of people that are now protesting reform.
The true battle is just getting the damn thing in the first place. Once we get it, we'd (America) be square.
You guys in Britain were lucky, sort of, having been ravished by WWII head on. After the war, having suffered a direct brunt of the conflict, you guys clamored for the cradle to grave welfare system and the government was willing to give it. Over here, we were spared the horrors, bombings, and destruction of the war and everything, for the most part "boomed" afterward making something like universal health care the last thing on Americans minds; Truman learned that the hard way. And in that time since, the monster that is the big insurance companies have taken over, turning health care into a profit based business instead of a public service like the post office or sanitation.

If we don't get reform done now, I fear only the absolute ruin of this country (possibly a Great Depression 2) will convince the reactionaries to sign onto actual damn health care reform.

But I think in some ways you might be selling your nation's politics short. I've always thought of Americans as idealists first and foremost.

Here's a pretty twisted thought: probably the ideal time to instigate universal health care was after 9/11...? Dunno if it holds water.

tricked you into thinking we had ideals or ethics.
its one of the reasons the uber-class here wants us poor and without life's basic needs.
ideals and ethics are out the window for those clinging to the margins of society.
besides idealistic people might get in the way of populating our vast prison labor camps.

Then when I was older and studied abroad in England and saw the system I did a research paper on nationalized health. I was suprised to see the U.S., one of the "superpower" countries, has one of the worst healthcare systems. It stuns me that some in this nation agree with millions of uninsured citizens, many of whom are children.

Thank you for a clear,concise and informative post.

Education! If you think our health care system is bad, our educational system is a total disaster. Believe it or not, many of our citizens don't know whom we fought in the Revolutionary War! Our soldiers are dying in Iraq, and many more Americans could not find Iraq on a map! A tv entertainer pointed to our flag outside on a pole and asked a woman "how many stars are on the flag," and she replied, "I don't know, its flapping too much to tell."

Why do our people do so many things that are against their best interest? Lack of education, which means they get all their "information" from phony news programs, tabloid newspapers, and their circle of friends. Absolutely pathetic. And it won't get any better because the powers that be like it this way. Just like the health care.

Our country is in serious trouble.

But thank you for your concern. It's good to know that there is still intelligent life out there.

and thanks for the help.

It is shocking isnt' it?

I was surprised that most developed countries HAD national health care
and that WE were the exception.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Americans need to hear this.

It's a service provided for all citizens. It is, as you rightly say, "a defining characteristic of civilised societies".

they pull it off effectively for far less money.

but we're Americans and you see, other countries are only used as examples of things that are done worse than we do them.

the ignorance combined with hubris here is simply stunning.

if this keeps us from universal health care then we are not the greatest country in the world (i hate when people act like one place could be such a superlative but it's commonplace to say that here). nevertheless, if we kill health reform, then we are not as great as they say we are, no way.

People on the right are amazing creatures. You can present facts to them but it is nearly impossible to get them to accept any of it into their brains.

If I ask them why we are ranked #50 for life expectancy if our health care system is so great, they say that it is due to gang violence or some other use of minorities as a scapegoat.

Of course, presenting the World Health Organization's list which has us ranked as #37 for health care around the world rarely warrants a response, but when it does, it is always a claim that the WHO has a librul bias.

People don't think - what you have found here on DU (thinking, intelligent, sane, rational people) is not representative of the country at large.

K*R!!

thx. :)

Thanks for your extremely clear analysis. I have recently realized that the insurance industry should, if they understand business, be supporting Pres. Obama's bill. The one now before congress is H.R. 3200, and it essentially leaves the health insurance industry in place, but with a lot of new restrictions. They would have to behave like moral entities, but they would get to keep on doing business. Under H.R. 676, or "Medicare for all," insurance companies are mostly out of business, since they can only cover procedures that our National Health wouldn't cover. It would surely be much worse for the insurance industry if 676 passed than if 3200 passed. Therefore, I reason, attempting doggedly to be logical, the insurance industry should be very happy with 3200. But they're not.

Why, I ask myself? Aside from the fact that their profit margin would shrink under 3200, the act does not surgically remove insurance from the concept of health care. So why is the industry fighting it tooth and nail? Well, when you consider the thinking of the American right, you have your choice of a number of crude and cruel irrationalities. But I think that the right is fighting as hard as it is so that no form of reform will pass at all. If the present disastrous health care situation were to improve even slightly, that would happen on the watch of an already popular Democratic president, and could help to seal the political doom of the Republican party. If they were to lose this battle, they could lose the war for a long time, and they can't afford that. If more Democrats get hold of the country, they might, (shudder), deemphasize the military. They might restore some sanity to our economic life, ensuring a lively economy with enough jobs. The horrors that might happen if the Democrats win big are awful to contemplate if you're a Republican.

You make an important point. As much as I loathe compromise on HR676, I do understand and agree with what you've said. I guess there could be a silver lining to 3200 passing after all.

The majority of people in this country are middle aged white workin' stiffs for a big company and get health insurance provided by their employer. Most are healthy and have not had to use the insurance and find out how worthless it can be and for the most part being a part of a group plan is not quite as worthless as having an individual plan that self-employed people have to get or people that don't have employer provided coverage. They also have no earthly idea what it costs because they never get the bill. To them it might as well be single payer insurance.

So voters just don't understand what the big to-do is all about. They're sympathetic to the have-nots but they don't come in contact with many have-nots that have been a victim of the system.

You wrote: "The NHS has a lot of problems (and I mean a LOT, There's no point beating around the bush, it's far from being a perfect system. It's slow, unwieldy, difficult to manage and slow to adapt to change)"
Well, the republican fear mongers couldn't have said it better. To someone who has employer provided coverage and never had to use it, this sounds really really scary.

To make matters worse, we are a very conservative, uber religious, mostly right wing country that believes the scare tactics and believes silliness like there will be funding for abortions which is real big controversy here. Killing adults is ok but killing fertilized eggs not ok.

1. Our government is deeply corrupt. The past few years have demonstrated beyond all doubt who really controls this country, whether the Republicans or Democrats are in office: the major corporations. Reagan let them in the door, and now they're blatantly in charge, running the country through their bought-and-paid-for officials and their wholly-owned media

2. Before the requirements for passports to visit Canada and Mexico, only 11% of Americans owned a passport. Unlike Europeans, Australians, or even Japanese, Americans do not travel overseas much. You can tell most of them any old lie about another country, and they'll believe it, especially if it makes the U.S. look good in comparison to other countries. They have a chauvinism born of ignorance.

I had opportunities to emigrate to more intelligent countries when I was younger, but I had no idea it would ever get this bad.

is that 23% (the R base) of our country is quite literally brain dead.

:shrug:

hope you stay awhile...

worships capitalism. The only thing they care about is protecting corporations.

Americans are stupid. That is a fact. And Americans in the South are much more stupid than Americans in other parts of the country (sorry southerners). It's not that they are inherently stupid, but history has caused them to be stupid.

After the Civil War, Northerners sent teachers to the South to teach the freed slaves. Southerners hated this. After Reconstruction ended, the Southern elites decided that in order to keep African Americans uneducated, they would simply starve their entire education systems.

In other words, one of the untold stories of the South is that instead of elevating living standards of blacks to those of whites, southern elites lowered living standards of poor whites to those of blacks. The South became a bastion of ignorance, superstition, hyper religion and bigotry.

Right wing opposition to every positive social change in America has been vested primarily in the South. Southerners can be led to believe that any positive change is a giveaway to blacks, and they will faithfully oppose it. It is primarily southern nuts in Congress who are the talking heads against health care reform.

healthcare reform are greed, lies, and gullibility. We've got more of that in the US than critical thinking, that's for sure.

and they have it down to a science.

How on EARTH did people's thinking about health get so screwed up that they allowed the expenses incurred in treating disease fall under the influence of insurance companies?

Those people who believe this are people who are addicted to fear and incapable of mature, reasoned thought. They do not think for themselves. They required to be told what they think by those who a. are eager to take advantage of their stupidity or b. have something to gain by misleading gullible people.

Unfortunately, most of them consider it a badge of honor to be severely deficient in education and the ability and desire to educate themselves. They love being stupid because that means they are not responsible for the consequences--they can always blame someone else for what they choose to know or believe.

Welcome to DU.

I would very much like to cleave some of our dip-shits here in twain.

"I've a nasty feeling that some Americans think being sick is sort of unnatural and wrong, like being poor, and don't want to think about it."

All too many Americans believe that they will somehow be exempt from health problems, that they have good genes, that they have good habits, etc. I've even talked to DUers who are convinced it's not fair for them to pay anything in taxes for health care (even if they could afford it), because they don't need it.

:toast:

The right does not have a lock on opposition to an NHS plan. Most, if not all, of our politicians of both parties, are in the back pockets of corporations and thus will not jeopardize their bread & butter. I don't claim to know how the UK political system works but I do believe that grillions of pounds are not wasted on re-election campaigns as is the case here. I think that bribery is somehow overlooked when discussing obstacles to achieving a health care system comparable to that of France, Germany, Canada, etal.

Because unless you have paid attention to how we got here, where are doesn't make sense in terms of the America we love to imagine, the America our corporate media polishes and holds up on a stick, the America we were last time you were paying attention.

It's been done very quietly, over the course of more than three decades.

First they made us ignorant.

Then they made us scared.

And ignorant, scared people will do irrational things.

Like, going to town hall meetings and yelping about "socialism" because our Congress is finally, oh-so-reluctantly, being prodded and shoved into doing something that might benefit ordinary people.

No, I don't feel patronized. I feel CONNECTED. To someone who has some of the same notions about civilization that I have, and who wishes me well in this mess. Thank you.

appreciatively,
Bright

but, meanwhile, there is the insanity of "socialism" fears --

Evidently, they think that the UK, France, Canada are forcing women to have abortions?

Forcing old people to accept euthanasia?

In other words, they are people who don't think for themselves and who trust the GOP!!!!

How insane can you be?

by corporations in our elections --

Campaign finance BRIBERY --

"Pre-ownership" of candidates/elected officials by corporatiosn --

and I have no doubt this fascism will expand into co-opting more of public health systems

in other nations IF they win here!!!

So, in a sense, we are all in this together -- !!!

Corporatism is deadly for us all -- !!!

:)

We have corporate government. It is as simple as that. And our media pushes the corporate mandate every time, even on our public broadcasting stations.

We could correct this with the proper legislation. But, if you thought the nutters came out to protest health care reform you would not believe how they would act if someone seriously suggested publicly financed elections.

not what will happen to every one of us. I agree; it's a lapse in the reality of inevitable sickness and death. We are still an adolescent country, and it may take a catastrophe to make us finally grow up.

I LOVE you!!

Oh, and I hope you plan to stick around DU for a very long time.:toast:

I'm a British ex-pat dual citizen, I've lived here nearly 30 years and honestly, it's getting worse and worse trying to justify why we stay here.
The politicians are totally in the pockets of the corporations, much more than would be possible in the UK, and I think that's the real reason we'll never get change here.

Hit pretty much all the major points IMO.

You are most kind

:D

Nice to know there are some sane people out there. ;)

Welcome, BTW! :toast:

The bottom line of any corporation is, in general, to make money. The more the better. Now put that in an area where human life should be the most important thing and you have our form of care. Where the HMO or PPO board of directors or their corporate owners have worked out what the doctors can give you or not in the area of medical treatment. From drugs to surgery they have the numbers to tell them what costs more in relation to your life. "Your money or you life" doesn't apply in this case. It is the relative cost of your life measured against their profit margins. The bottom line isn't yours or my life. When you figure that out then you see that Simon Lagree is alive and well and living in the dark souls of those whose god is Mammon and will gladly put you and your babies into the Carthaginian furnaces of Moloch to make that bonus limit in the next quarter profits. With a (low end) average of 273 dying every day from lack of healthcare, you get the idea that many Murray buildings are exploding and multiple twin towers are going down constantly but the numbers of the Death Care Industry's victims are going unremarked and unannounced all of the time. The silence of the preventable deaths should be deafening but it is not reported in the context that would bring it to the fore of everyone's consciousness. And with so many millions now unemployed or poorly employed, somewhere in the 9 million mark, the fewer people alive, the better it is for the plutocrats of our oligarchs that want to rule without any restraint.

The strangulation of the news industry directly aids those of the corporatist persuasion in many ways including in the health industry. The fewer reporters, of those a very small amount of dedicated ones, are pared back and reduced numbers to "save cost" and closing down news rooms and making the total control of the airwaves monochromatic as the 5 conglomerates consolidate a greater hold on 90% or more of the available information outlets.

President Obama is doing his job to make sure that whatever is passed it won't do us any real good. Forcing us all into Gingrich care at the point of a gun isn't good for us. But perfect for the Death Care Insurance companies! Any who can't pay will be paid for with our tax money from "our" gov't. Fascism all over again. Corporations get their blood money one way or the other. Consider President Obama a hostile witness and treat him accordingly

Now why would they in their evil right minds turn that down? If you are a normal person you should be appalled at it. If you are actually informed. Otherwise you are a psychopath or a wannabe who loves the present situation and will kill to keep it. Once you understand that it will make sense.

over our country? You see, we aren't allowed to hear about anything other than the fact that WE HAVE THE GREATEST HEALTHCARE IN THE WORLD!!!

Maybe you could smuggle in some crystal radio sets so that we can all huddle in our basements at night and listen to Radio Free America. You can beam us upbeat healthcare stories that end with "and little Edmund's appendectomy was completely free" and the like. It will be just like science fiction to us.