Reason vs. emotion

Spent the weekend camping with several other families, and one of the dads was conservative - and we got to talking about health care reform. He and his wife didn't go to college; he's of the middle class to lower middle class demographic that you have showing up at these protests.

And what he said was: Why do I have to be responsible for all these people who don't have health care? I have my own kids, my own family, my own situation to take care of; I've worked hard to get what I have (which includes health insurance provided through his wife's employer); why should I surrender any of it to help the "less fortunate" - who, in his mind, are comprised mostly of slackers, people who haven't worked as hard as he has and sacrificed as much as he has.

That's a key ingredient in this debate, the perception that government is looking to reward layabouts (who, needless to say, are often black or Latino, in his view). And it's mostly an emotional reaction - fanned by the likes of Rush and Fox News.

Because when you say, look, health care reform is essential for other reasons - such as encouraging entrepreneurialism, as people often decide they can't break away from their employer and start their own business because they couldn't afford the higher premiums - they grow quiet. They really haven't thought about that aspect of the debate; it has all been very black and white for them. And I think they resent, and reject, any evidence that the situation ISN'T black and white. You can't reason with emotion - as anyone who has ever tried to talk a buddy out of dumping a girl that's no good for him can attest.

So we liberals, with our reason, are wasting our time trying to "enlighten" such folks. They are not going to BE enlightened, they are not going to suddenly "see" what we're talking about, they have their (mis)perceptions and goddammit, how dare you even challenge that. That is the attitude. It can only be steamrolled.

I'd say "patriotism" is part of the problem. Liberal patriotism usually focuses on exposing mistakes and problems and pushing to correct them. Conservative patriotism is one of conformity and belief that USA is #1 in all it does.

When you're #1, and everyone who does things differently is weird and/or worse, there's no reason to change the status quo. Most disturbingly, challenging the status quo challenges the #1 concept as a whole, and with that, a large share of their social identity. This is why the 1st reaction is one of aggressive rejection and defensive ignorance.

It requires contributions to education, even if people have no children to educate. A well educated country is of benefit to everyone in the country

The same goes for health care. A healthy population benefits the country as a whole

Aiming for greatness is fine, but I'd much rather live in a place that's working on being just a little bit better tomorrow than it was yesterday. :)

at least per this version, blue-collars had to be seriously bullied into helping themselves.

Their choices boiled down to, one feudal lord to whom you are mere fodder vs. another who kinda cares but who could be shafted at any moment by nexts-in-command who either don't care or aren't as competent.

(I of course pick (b).)

One of Mamet's lines worth quoting, re- the unionized: "They'd rather some people die for your mistake, than that they lived, but that they lacked a leader."

Certainly, being denied doctor recommended health care by an insurance company is an emotional issue. How about being denied coverage due to a pre-existing condition or premiums that sky rocket when you do get sick? We should be using the emotional issues as well.

and they don't want to "help" anyone else, especially the brown ones. some of these people would be willing to lose what they have to make sure no one else benefits. it's a truly sad commentary.

And how do we reason with people that lack perspective and do not wish to have it?

Lack of perspective, lack of rational thought, and lack of any sense of history has created this. The dumbing down of America has created a portion of the populace who no longer recognizes what America stands for. Unity. UNITED States.

Ignorance and repression brought on the Dark Ages, killing of all the healers and lack of cleanliness with the food brought on the plague. But to adequately understand this one would have to have a sense of history.

These people cannot see past their own noses, without government oversight there would be anarchy, since in the human population there are people who cannot govern themselves without endangering others.

And most of all, who does not understand the word OPTION, it means you can say no to it and make other choices. This level of ignorance is like a virus that has infected our once rational and educated society.

I know everyone has a right to a seat at the bargaining table, a right to representation, but first we have to reeducate the ignorant people. They are holding up progress, and we do not have time for this bullshit.

Some wear it like a badge of honor i.e. any intellectual curiosity as to what's actually behind this bought and sold, mass marketed BS is relegated as "weak."

How does one change that?

Good luck.

Everybody's got a grandma who used herbs or foods as medicine, or some other familiarity with homespun ways to stay/get healthy. Their intellectual curiosity may only go so far (they might enjoy the old yarn about Nutrasweet and Rummy) yet the human bond may be enough to cut through the chatter?

:happy: :think: I meant to type think and typed happy, somehow and I'm leavin it!! B-)

and many of my friends are Conservatives as well. Good hearted people who refuse to accept the fact that some people need need help. They don't believe that we live in an interconnected society not to mention an interconnected world. I really do believe it boils down to a matter of maturity. "It's not fair! Why should I have to take care of anyone else but myself! No one helped me when I needed help! So to hell with them! It's just not fair that I should have to pay one cent for anybody but those who I care about!" Growing up with a conservative father, I have heard it all before. Grow up, life isn't fair.

I have learned not to argue. How can you change someone's deep seated emotions? It's a waste of time. We need to just leave them behind and not look back. To me it's very simple, health care is a human right and when individuals in a society do better, WE ALL DO BETTER!

"And what he said was: Why do I have to be responsible for all these people who don't have health care? I have my own kids, my own family, my own situation to take care of; I've worked hard to get what I have (which includes health insurance provided through his wife's employer); why should I surrender any of it to help the "less fortunate" - who, in his mind, are comprised mostly of slackers, people who haven't worked as hard as he has and sacrificed as much as he has.

That's a key ingredient in this debate, the perception that government is looking to reward layabouts (who, needless to say, are often black or Latino, in his view). And it's mostly an emotional reaction - fanned by the likes of Rush and Fox News.

"Because when you say, look, health care reform is essential for other reasons - such as encouraging entrepreneurialism, as people often decide they can't break away from their employer and start their own business because they couldn't afford the higher premiums - they grow quiet. They really haven't thought about that aspect of the debate; it has all been very black and white for them. And I think they resent, and reject, any evidence that the situation ISN'T black and white. You can't reason with emotion - as anyone who has ever tried to talk a buddy out of dumping a girl that's no good for him can attest."

I believe the key is to find the logic that forms the basis of their emotion, and reason from that point of view; to empathize with them, the conversation in your O.P. seems to have at least some degree done just that.

"I believe the key is to find the logic that forms the basis of their emotion, and reason from that point of view;"

That is the problem there is no logic involved, only emotion. The difference conservative health care opponents have is totally emotional. It's a matter of ideology, a matter of principal. Anyone who didn't earn it doesn't deserve it, no matter how much nationally backed health care would save money or lives. If they didn't earn it they don't deserve it.
I've logically debated loved ones into submission, but have never been successful in changing one mind that didn't want to be changed.

Don't get me wrong, we should speak out when necessary but we need to also know when someone is "open" and when someone is not. Many times debate just makes people grasp tighter to their conditioned beliefs. Life is too short to waste our time.

survival of the fittest.

"That is the problem there is no logic involved, only emotion. The difference conservative health care opponents have is totally emotional. It's a matter of ideology, a matter of principal. Anyone who didn't earn it doesn't deserve it, no matter how much nationally backed health care would save money or lives. If they didn't earn it they don't deserve it.

"I've logically debated loved ones into submission, but have never been successful in changing one mind that didn't want to be changed."

Debating them in to submission is only the beginning, we have to transcend seeking submission with the primary goal of obtaining what I would call psychological fellowship, only from that position can real change come about.

I agree with you, they must want to change but I believe you can't push someone to alter their point of view so much as walk along side them pointing out the benefits of different paths.

Like some wise person; it might have been Newton, once said "For every action there is a reaction" therefor I believe for maximum effect our actions should be minimally invasive to the subject with the continuous thought of reaction's; direction.