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If there IS no public option, is there any reform at ALL?

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Curtland1015 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 09:05 AM
Original message
If there IS no public option, is there any reform at ALL?
If the public option is shot down (never mind SINGLE PAYER...) is there any reform at all? What is the point of passing any bill if there's no public option?

I'm not being flip, I'm actually unsure here.

Will they still try to regulate drug prices? What about forcing insurance companies to pay for pre-existing conditions?

I'm just confused about what they WILL try to put in even if public and single payer don't make it...
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
1. Without a public option, it's just a giveaway to the insurance companies
MAndated coverage and nothing to stop them from chargin you out the ass for it.
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Exactly....
...no public option ~~ forget it.

JMHO
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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. And the republicans STILL wont vote for it
It is time to cut them out of the picture and exercise the nuclear option.
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JaneQPublic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. Bingo
And as Rachel pointed out in her exchanges on MTP with Dick Armey, not only do they want to destroy Health Care Reform, they would also like to do away with Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.

...Oh, yeah, and shrink all of Government down to a size where they can drown in it a bathtub.

Bipartisanship is all well and good provided the other side is operating in good faith. But when the best negotiator on the Repuke side that Obama can name is Chuck Grassley, who then promotes the "Death Panel" hysteria, the White House needs to stop trying to court the conservatives and dance with the ones who brought them -- the liberals -- and work like the devil for the Public Option plan Obama promised in the election.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Thinkin we won't see workers getting raises so they can purchase insurance either.
just set more of the burden on the shoulders already carrying the load, that is what no public option but mandate to get insurance would also accomplish.
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t0dd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
4. No, and progressives in the House need to block such a bill from passing. nt
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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
6. No, Lawton Chiles tried to help small business in the 1990 with
affordable health care for the employees. Jeb Bush dismantled the mechanism when he was elected.

Any legislation that is passed to curb the excesses of the insurance industry can be undone by the next Congress. Undoing the Public Option, that would be near impossible.

That is why lobbyists like CNN and Fox News are fighting against it.
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DefenseLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
7. The government will pay the insurance companies
Edited on Mon Aug-17-09 09:15 AM by DefenseLawyer
an enormous sum to insure those that they couldn't insure for a profit (the sick) and those that hadn't been forced into the protection racket on their own (the young). Insurance companies make a killing and politicians can say "everyone is insured. Problem solved."
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abluelady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
8. No
As long as the insurance companies "run" the agenda, there will be no reform. Or at least not enough reform that most Americans will see a difference.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
10. Treating this issue as a business issue instead of a human right and human necessity
insured that reform would only be cosmetic and meaningless. The 900 pound gorilla is still in the room, the for profit industry who brought us this crisis to begin with.
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Kalun D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
11. SOLD OUT
We've been sold out by the corporate Dems

the bush boy got stuff passed with either slim majorities or no majorities

Obama can't get something passed with a veto proof majority.

Sort of seems like he doesn't want it. He's sure not fighting for it like he did the Dem nomination or the presidency, his argument for it seems weak and disconnected. Like he's laying down on purpose.

We know key Dems in the house and senate have sold out, but has Obama sold out also?
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #11
24. Not a matter of 'selling out,' but of playing out the script as initially crafted
... which, since this is America, of course entails serving vested interests which = continually fucking us over. Any politician or candidate who is deemed "electable" by corporate America WILL ALWAYS, ALWAYS take this route.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
12. Without public option, there is still a HUGE amount of reform, but not enough
Edited on Mon Aug-17-09 09:24 AM by HamdenRice
I'll put it this way. Without a public option, there is a huge amount of reform for people who have insurance. For example, insurance companies will have to insure people with previously existing conditions, at the same price as others. They have to take anyone who applies. There won't be price discrimination against self-employed, free-lancers and others who don't get insurance at work. They won't be able to drop people for alleged fraud just because they get sick, or because they made a mistake on their initial application forms. There will be no caps, and lower deductibles, so people with insurance won't be going bankrupt from medical expenses.

Most of the abuses in Michael Moore's, "Sicko" will no longer be allowed (although, remember, "Sicko" was mainly about people who already had insurance).

That said, I see no reason they can't pass public option and will be pissed off if they don't. Having been screwed over by health insurance more times than I can remember, I don't want to ever pay a dime to those bastards ever again.
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yodermon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #12
21. Here's a brainstorm:
make medicaid part of unemployment benefits.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #21
31. That's actually a great idea! Just as we pay into UI, we could pay into Medicaid prepay insurance
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Sheepshank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
13. Public Option is a must
If legislation is passed to guarantee coverage by eliminating preexisting conditions, and eliminating lifetime caps, premiums will go through the roof. Without a Public Option, there will be NO incentive for insurance companies to hold back on cost for premiums.

If Public Option doesn't pass, and the rest of the bill does, rates WILL go up...you know who will get the blame? Yeah, the Dems. The repukes will pounce on that and demolish the Dems and will likely have a very strong foothold in 2012. What do you think will be the first thing they eliminate if they win POTUS office? You got it, preexisting conditions and lifetime caps.

Besides offering a truly competitive option for the public, if millions upon millions of people sign up and are customers of the Public Option....what are the chances that any future Republican President can and would be willing to pull the plug on that? I'd hazard a guess and say no chance at all.
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soryang Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
14. Health insurance is a part of the bloated corrupt finance sector
It needs to be cut down not enlarged. The enlargement of the finance sector is a fraudulent compensation for the loss of manufacturing capacity in the US. The globalists can't admit their "free trade" nonsense was enormous and catastrophic failure, so they overcompensate with one gimmick after another. Anything but real reform. This country is going to go down the hard way.
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yodermon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
15. Is there any regulation of these Insurance compaines?
If the law enforces the following

* no denial of coverage for preexisting conditions
* no dropping of coverage while you're sick
* no lifetime "max benefit payable"
* no dropping of coverage when you lose job

then at least that's not *nothing*.
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Sheepshank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #15
28. But that very list
will ensure that insurance companies raise their premiums through the roof. They have explained that those are the things that keep costs down! There are no caps on costs and profits for Insurance and there is not incentive to keeps costs down without the competition of Public option.

If insurers are forced to implement that list, the the premiums and deductables go up dramatically....who do you think will catch the fall out of the angry financially strapped/broken population?
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yodermon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. so there are no cost control measures in any of the bills to go along w/ reform?
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Sheepshank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. not that I have heard.
I have read about subsidies for premiums etc for rhe insured....but nothing that actually addresses caps for fees insurance companies can implement.

Your question regarding "cost control methods" is NOT the same as capping actual premiums and deductibles etc. Cost control methods simply ensure larger profit margins for corporate execs.
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frazzled Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
16. Yes, according to Paul Krugman today
Finally, the third route to universal coverage relies on private insurance companies, using a combination of regulation and subsidies to ensure that everyone is covered. Switzerland offers the clearest example: everyone is required to buy insurance, insurers can’t discriminate based on medical history or pre-existing conditions, and lower-income citizens get government help in paying for their policies.

In this country, the Massachusetts health reform more or less follows the Swiss model; costs are running higher than expected, but the reform has greatly reduced the number of uninsured. And the most common form of health insurance in America, employment-based coverage, actually has some “Swiss” aspects: to avoid making benefits taxable, employers have to follow rules that effectively rule out discrimination based on medical history and subsidize care for lower-wage workers.

So where does Obamacare fit into all this? Basically, it’s a plan to Swissify America, using regulation and subsidies to ensure universal coverage.If we were starting from scratch we probably wouldn’t have chosen this route. True “socialized medicine” would undoubtedly cost less, and a straightforward extension of Medicare-type coverage to all Americans would probably be cheaper than a Swiss-style system. That’s why I and others believe that a true public option competing with private insurers is extremely important: otherwise, rising costs could all too easily undermine the whole effort.

But a Swiss-style system of universal coverage would be a vast improvement on what we have now. And we already know that such systems work.

So we can do this. At this point, all that stands in the way of universal health care in America are the greed of the medical-industrial complex, the lies of the right-wing propaganda machine, and the gullibility of voters who believe those lies.


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/17/opinion/17krugman.html?_r=1&ref=opinion
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. Center/Right newspaper shills for insurance industry; nobody surprised. nt
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dawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
17. Sorry, you guys are just wrong ...
I would love to see a public option, and I'm still hoping for one. But even without it, we can put an end to "pre-existing" conditions and all of the other abusive practices the insurance companies use to deny people coverage or to deny them the benefits they have already paid for. I have insurance, but both my children have "pre-existing" conditions that are not covered. Sometimes, it seems like I'm paying my premiums for nothing, since all my medical costs have to be paid out of pocket anyway. Reform would fix this, even without the public option. And it is worth doing.
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. Yes!
The miniature horse is not the enemy of the pony. We must ensure that more people can get more coverage more affordably. Single-payer is ideal, but we can be pleased by a robust public option as well as by a reduction in preexisting-condition drops.
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #17
27. And if you can't afford it what difference does it make if they remove the "pre-existing"
conditions clause? People will still end up going without health care because it is the insurance companies that get between you and your doctor.

Not to mention, the removal of the pre-existing conditions refusals, and removing the abusive practices does nothing if you cannot afford to buy it at all and there are millions of people who are in exactly that position and this doesn't get them to a doctor. Without a public option (which is bullshit anyway as we need a single payer system which as implemented would make these practices moot in the first place) this is nothing more than a giveaway to the insurance companies and we, who cannot afford to pay them as it is, will be the once footing the bill.

It's called getting screwed.
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frazzled Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. The bill will still have subsidies for people who can't afford premiums
Jeebus, the ignorance around here is starting to compare to the birthers/deathers.

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Sheepshank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #27
32. yes!!!!
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pschoeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
18. Combination of mandates and no public option is criminal
Obama ran against mandates during his campaign so for him to support them now is pure crap, but typical.

There is no reform on pre-existing conditions, group insurance policies could never discriminate or not cover pre-existing conditions(unless someone was uninsured for 6 months, and then there could be a one year wait for coverage), only private individual policies could. But if there is a mandate to get insurance, there is in effect no voluntary individual policies. So the laws that are in place for group policies would be in effect, and I think courts would decide such, even if this wasn't in the bill, that mandated individual policies count as a group and so are subject to group policy laws. Since no one can now, because of mandates, not have insurance, the 6 month no-coverage one year wait, is also gone without any law change. Also group policy law already doesn't allow rescissions, like private individual policies do, so this is not really reform either.

So The insurance companies lose nothing by "giving in" to pre-existing conditions or rescission, they would by definition, even if the law was a simple one sentence mandate to buy insurance. So they get mandates which they love love love, and the only requirements are "reforms" that the courts would probably force on them anyway.

The big pharma deal will amount to a 2% discount at best, and since it means you can't get drugs from Canada, which are considerably cheaper than a 2% savings, Americans are adversely effected.
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panader0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
19. In my mind, the PO is the only thing that keeps the insurance companies honest
Would they self regulate? NOT!
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
22. W/o a Public Option, this is just a MASSIVE subsidy to insurance companies.
Wall Street got their bailout. Now the insurance industry demands the same. :shrug:
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subcomhd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
25. pre-existing conditions
a bill that barred this practice and did nothing else would be real reform.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
26. No single payer health care = no reform. You think the homeless can afford the public option?
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