Man Outside Obama Rally with AR-15 & Handgun

A man, who decided not to give his name, was walking around the pro-health care reform rally at 3rd and Washington streets, with a pistol on his hip, and an AR-15 (a semi-automatic assault rifle) on a strap over his shoulder.

"Because I can do it," he said when asked why he was armed. "In Arizona, I still have some freedoms."

Two police officers were staying very close to the man.

"What he is doing is perfectly legal," Detective J. Oliver, of the Phoenix police department said. "We are here to keep the peace. If we need to intervene, we will intervene at that time."

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/08/17/20090817obama-scene.html

Pic at the link - wouldn't post correctly. Here's a twist - he's African-American.

Guarantee

With emotions running high at these meetings, something serious could happen before the police have time to "intervene."

Or did we not hear about it on the MSM?

in the first amendment zones. And I know we have liberal gun owners - I'm one - but I don't think that at least up to this point we felt the need to openly display it at a political rally or protest.

What about the freedom to assemble without having to worry about some dickless, brainless asshat toting weapons around? Some people bring their kids to these events. A large number of legal gun owners end up shooting innocent people. Fucking cowards.

but it would never occur to me to walk around with it at a health care rally. It is way heavier than my purse for one thing and way less useful especially at such a well guarded rally.

Blacks can have guns also.. Is there an impending race war in the works I wonder? :shrug:

What does a gun have to do with a health care rally?

The anti-Obama people are definitely trying to stir the violence pot, and it's catching on.

That guy is a walking arsenal for some nut case who decides to take matters into his own hands and snatch the rifle or handgun from the free-loving citizen. Since most of these guys tend to be white supremacists and the gun owner is black, guess who the first target will be?

"What's the point of carrying an unloaded gun?" is what the guy at Obama's first town hall told Tweety. It seems to me you could make your point without putting innocent lives at danger. I'm not against guns, just stupidity.

A ten year old would be more mature.




WAAAH!! No fair!!

a threat to the president.

that is even perceived by the Secret Service to be wrong, and they could end up dead.

and yes, they think that waving a gun around at a rally is a game.

The Secret Service uses force up to and including lethal force to protect the principle.

A homeowner uses force up to and including lethal force to protect the residence of his/her home.

Execute implies the intent is to intentionally kill someone.

We only execute those convicted of crimes that carry the death penalty. Often people are killed by those employing lethal force in defense of self or others but the intent is to stop the attack not execute.

"We only execute those convicted of crimes that carry the death penalty"

Correct, and threatening the safety of the president is a crime that carries the death penalty, usually without the pomp of a high-profile trial/conviction.

Lethal force can be used in defense but only as long as the person remains a threat.
Execution implies the intent is to end the life regardless of the change in situation.

There is no crime in which the Secret Service can be an executioner.

We are talking about President Obama and King Henry right?

But if one of these nuts point a gun at the president, he will likely find out that that is a de facto capital crime.

he would discover I have the right to use lethal force to protect myself and family.

There really is no difference. The President is more of a target so more precaution is taken however the actual authority that enables a Police Officer to shoot a suspect or a home owner to shoot a criminal in his/her house is the authority the SS uses to use lethal force to stop the attack.

If the attacker is disabled but living they can't "finish" the job because it isn't an execution it is lethal force.

I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying that is the law.
If I didn't let you in my house, I can shoot you. If you are banging on my door and won't go away, I can shoot you.

hope he sneezes. What a moron.

The SS should use laser sights like the old days. Then his moron pals can ask him what's that red light on his forehead.

Experience has shown that laser sights are more useful for people like homeowners than they are for police.

Problems with laser sights...

1: They wash out in daylight or on certain color clothing, so you can't rely on being able to see them.
2: In smokey or foggy conditions the beam can be traced back to the source, giving away your position.
3: If more than one officer has a laser it gets confusing very quickly; is "my" dot the one on the criminal, or the one on the hostage?

.. lasers shine straight, bullets fly in an arc. Scopes can be dialed for distance, windage, or elevation. Lasers not so much.

The whole 'lasers for snipers' thing is an artifact of hollywood for the most part.

One point I didn't make is that they do have some intimidation value. They just have a lot of tactical flaws that make them less useful for police than was originally thought.

You brought goddamn guns to a rally!!!!

Usually when someone (who isn't in law enforcement) is seen out in public with a gun (especially a semi-automatic), that means there is about to be a mass shooting; after all, we have lots mass shootings in this country. Since when is this acceptable -legally speaking? Sure, you can't take weapons into a school, but as long as its out in the open, its totally OK?

In VA you can open carry a pistol in a holster, brandishing requires drawing the weapon. I am not sure (doubt) open carry of loaded rifle is legal but then again I have never checked because it has never occurred for me to do so.

While the issue is about AZ, VA and AZ have similar open carry laws, thus both receive a gold status from opencarry.org

In VA a person who is not a prohibited person, and above the age of 18, may openly carry the rifle, pistol, or shotgun of their choice to areas which are legal to carry to. Those areas have few exceptions, with the notable ones being FEDERAL buildings, courthouses, jails (only the jail portion if it is at a police station), and K-12 schools. K-12 schools have a 1000 foot rule due to federal law that gives exception to those that have a CCW that does a background check (I don't know one that doesn't, but that's what the federal law saws). In the urban areas of VA, there is an additional restriction placed because localities cannot enact any ordinances about guns that do not pertain to discharge and hunting. That restriction is for those that do not posses a CCW may not carry a rifle or pistol "equipped with a magazine greater than 20 rounds" (known to mean the magazine in the gun), or a shotgun with a magazine greater than 7 shells. This restriction does not apply to those that have a CCW permit, however, as I would rather not show mine, I choose to open carry a Glock with a 19 or 20 round magazine with 23 or 20 round mags as back up, depending if I'm carrying a 9mm or a .40 respectively.



As for brandishing, that is taken to mean holding it in a way of intimidation, and has always meant in the terms of law to be in the actual hands of the subject, thus this does not include having it in a holster or on a sling. That is proper and legal carry of that firearm.

Why do you ask? An AR-15 makes a pretty good attack weapon in the hands of someone who knows how to use it. The lack of full auto isn't much of a limitation against an unarmed crowd, now, is it?

Besides, he's not planning to fire it, anyhow. The goal is simply intimidation, as it always is with morons who walk around protesters displaying arms. Intimidation. Saying, "I could kill you if I wanted to. Be grateful I don't want to right now."

In this situation, his two firearms offer no other message. The message is intimidation.

I love guys like this. I'd like to walk up and get in their face and give 'em the business. They'd just have to stand there and take it. They can't draw down on you with two cops standing next to them, now can they? So, you can explain why they are morons right to their face.

And don't mistake me for an anti-gun person. I'm not. In fact, I just recommended that if this continues, some Pro-Obama people need to do the same, but while carrying Pro-Obama signs. Turnabout is a good way to defuse morons.

Are you just talking about his rifle, or are you talking about his pistol as well?

Crazy people.

Given all the security surrounding any Presidential visit, this moron can't claim he's there armed to protect himself. He knows he's going to be accompanied by some sort of cop as long as he's there and also knows that any threatening behavior with his firearms is going to end badly for him.

But, there he is, making his worthless point. Yes, in Arizona, he can show up with his firearms and walk around with a couple of cops accompanying him. We saw the same thing in Montana. He's not a threat to the President, but he's certainly using up resources that are there to protect the President.

Who's he going to shoot? Who's going to attack him? Nobody cares about this guy enough to attack him in any way. Yet...he feels it necessary to display his dick analogs to prove that he's tough shit and has the "right" to do so.

Screw him. Ignore him and let the cops do their jobs. They'll deal with the moron.

I know about NH, just wondering if I missed anyone doing this in Montana?

"There were pockets of people on both sides of the health care debate walking around the city.

Elaine Gangbluff, 73, of Phoenix, was holding a sign that read: If you think healthcare is expensive now, wait till it's free.

"I'm strongly opposed to government running health-care, That should be between my doctor and myself."




Sad that a person can make it to 73 and still be so dense and uninformed.

and has probably taken advantage of it...the most flexible health insurance program there is. She goes to whatever doctor she wants, gets the treatment she needs without question and, if she has the usual supplement, pays not a dime for that treatment.

And it's a government-run program. Imagine that.

demonstrator showed up with his own pistol and AR-15, along with a nice big Pro-Obama sign...

Perhaps that's what's needed to demonstrate that not only the right wing morons keep and bear arms. I don't know.

that he wasn't pro Obama?

these days. They're sorta rare, so they get lots of attention from the wingers, who put them right out front to show that they aren't really the racists they actually are. If you're articulate, you get lots of television time, as the oddity that you are.

Being the only black conservative in a crowd means that you get heard and treated like royalty by the rest of the wingers, even if they wouldn't vote for you for anything.

"See...we're not racists. Some of our best friends are colored."

and may turn this lunacy into a career.

You might have something there.

Some of my... Being white some jerks assume that you're a racist shithead like them. I give them enough rope and then smack'em down!

Makes me wonder if they are in the same group.

These instances aren't about the right to bear arms and they aren't even about the rights of people in certain states to carry weapons in public.

These examples are about what kind of message someone is trying to send by bringing a gun to a presidential event, considering our (and other country's) history of assassination.

These people know what message they're sending. We all know.

Frankly, I couldn't tell from the article what his actual point of view is - 'still have some freedoms' suggests he feels most of them are being eroded, but then I see that attitude on DU frequently so I'm still not sure.

I'll say one thing, it sure seems like you have a hell of a lot more freedom when Obama comes to town than you did when Bush paid a visit.

That means in America, we have to let him be a tool. The police kept an eye on him, he's not a assassin or he wouldn't be talking to the press.

The more people scream about this the more it will make other people want to copy the behavior.

with those weapons in the presence of the President.

Yo don't seriously beleive he would have been allowed to have those weapons if that was a Bush or Cheney rally, do you?

And kept under constant watch. But if they made no illegal move, what should the SS and cops do? I think that would actually be less scary because I doubt fifty people would launch an attack, it would be more like a protest.

"Yo don't seriously beleive he would have been allowed to have those weapons if that was a Bush or Cheney rally, do you?"

No but that presidency was more willing to break the law and deny people their rights. If they weren't breaking any laws they should have been allowed to open-carry at a bush/cheney event.

One or fifty. If it's legal, and if they're behaving themselves, there's no call to stop them. Don't like it, get the law changed. And in places like NH, AZ or MT, good luck. One NH legislator tried to prohibit citizens from being armed in their State Capitol buildings, the proposal was utterly defeated, and she was subsequently turfed out of office by her own party (Dem).

As for the second bit, there was probably less perceived need to demonstrate their right to be armed given that the Bush/Cheney administration was not perceived as being against firearms, particularly evil black ones like the AR-15 series. The Democratic Party's policy website still has states the desire to ban them. No reason you can't protest multiple policies at one event, is there?

...because the infringements on his gun-toting rights?

Okay, well, it's really not all that terrible, anyway. What that guy is doing is singlehandedly splitting the issue of gun rights from the armed intimidation mobs which have fallen into the employ of the Republican Party.

There is a slight issue with the right-wing authoritarian support of gun rights. They support gun rights for white people. Anyone else carrying guns scares the poo straight out of 'em.

I would be curious to see how the SA responded to this one guy. My first guess is that they stayed well away.

and the cameras are put away, his ass will probably be racially profiled right into a jail cell for some nonsense like an upaid parking ticket. :rofl:

"Because I can do it."

doesn't mean it is smart to do. I have a 1st amendment right to wear a shirt that says "kick me in the jimmy!" but i don't.

There is little doubt his intention is to threaten. If he uses it, it wouldn't be in self defense. Is he really that weak that he feels threatened? So we have to assign police officers just to monitor one guy? What if everyone had a gun? This whole scene makes no sense to me whatsoever. Some old and tired amendment regarding a militia of citizens that has no pertinence to today's real world.

I don't care what anyone thinks, I don't like people walking around with guns. Especially American people.

Different laws?

Don

probably followed through the crosshairs by a USSS countersniper team.,

More likely they had more available manpower so they could spare a 2nd officer.

I imagine that would make a bit more nervous.

as I understand the situation.

I defer to local LEO and the SS on matters regarding the protection of the President. Its often possible to maintain civil liberties and security when people act reasonably and within the bounds of the law.

Repugs think it OK to walk around with guns then this is what happens. As usual, whatever a repug does backfires against them.

(Late update: CNN now reports that there were two men carrying assault rifles, reportedly AR-15s, outside President Obama's event in Phoenix.)

A man was seen carrying an assault rifle and a pistol outside the VFW Convention in Phoenix where President Obama spoke today, a local newspaper reports. (Click through for a photo.)

Local police said it's legal under Arizona law, but two officers kept close by him.

"If we need to intervene, we will intervene at that time," said Detective J. Oliver.

The man, who gave his name only as "Chris", was asked why he was armed. "Because I can do it," he said. "In Arizona, I still have some freedoms."

Here's video from ArizonaCentral.com (go to about 1:30). It looks like the man giving the interview was also carrying a pistol.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/2009/08/man-carrying-an-assault-rifle-and-pistol-outside-obama-event.php?ref=fpa

Video: http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/news/2009/08/video_at_least_one_man_shows_up_with_assault_rifle.php

Talk about delusions of grandeur! When the country was founded, we granted the government only the powers we wanted it to have, reserving the rest for ourselves. The First Amendment reinforces the point that as citizens we have reserved the rights of freedom of speech, religion and the press. We are free to speak because the founders knew the importance of open discussion to a democratic government. And this right doesn't depend on the actions of any one person or group of people. We are not "given" the right to speak by anyone, even those like me who have served in the military.