The public option is DOA... trust me on this

the latest polls show that MORE people are against it than for it. This is EXACTLY what the industry wanted and now got. This is why they needed this month to fiddle and do nothing.

And why this country is now circling the drain.

Now to all of you who THINK you are free...

This is the same way they sell you what you eat. You don't choose, they do.

This is how they sell you the car you drive, you don't choose, they do.

This is how they sell you the house you are at. you don't choose, they do.

I could go on.

It is time to wake up from this, and take the damn blue pill. The powers that be, whether this is the corporates or the state, control every thing you do. They just give you the illusion.

Yes, you want public option, take the blue pill and time to go demonstrate in front of the federal building. Oh and voting time, time to break from the well, what am I gonna vote for? A republican? No, fuck no. Democrat? This does not pass, I fear mickey mouse, or any progressive challenger to them. Why? They are all the same. Oh and fuck it, this will have the republicans elected.... so? Your point? Charlie Brown you want to continue having the ball taken away at the last second every time? By all means, continue to play the game.

Free... you kid me right?

And yes, I have told my reps just about this by now. I am tired of having Lucy pulling the ball every time. None of the two parties will do what they promise to their base. THey have figured out just how much they have to do to keep people sedate... but major reforms on their "signature promises" when they have true majorities? You kid me right?

So go on... thinking they really care about you. I am done.

:-(

:thumbsup:

call your reps and rise up.

This is why they released this wonderful death panels to the world. You kid me? You think that was coincidence? It is time to break from the usual.

Any bill they come up with including these revolting co-op ideas is going to be WORSE then the current situation; and it looks like the public option was just a diversion from their desire to give insurance companies even more power over our lives. Classic bait and switch tactic.

the bus too.

No, he is an observer like me. When I saw the results this mornign I went, it is not "polling well,' which is the cover they need to do the deed.

your own importance again. Howard Dean is an expert on the subject. YOU are not. Howard Dean is an ex-gov who implemented innovative healthcare coverage. YOU weren't and didn't. Howard Dean is an M.D. You aren't. Howard Dean was DNC chair. You weren't.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

They cannot face The Truth.

They don't want to KNOW The Truth.

They cannot face reality.

It is so much easier to attack anyone who dares to shed light on the lie, and then keep living the lie, than actually face the hard reality, and then accept it, and figure out what to do.

And this is how it is.

The Wars will continue, unabated.

The Banksters, Wall Street, and Corporate Parasites will continue to loot the country and it's citizens for everything they have left.

And Americans, for the most part, will continue to worship this false left/right paradigm, this faux political system, and believe there is a difference.

And Those in control will continue to play us all against each other, while advancing their agendas which have absolutely NOTHING to do with We The People.

And We The People?

We will, for the most part, keep buying it.

For no other fact than the abusive spouse we favor is so much better than the OTHER abusive spouse, or so we perceive.

temporarily is now completely gone

Hugs

American Democracy... RIP

1789-2000

It is now official.

And sadly, for the most part, We are. :(

and it saddens me.

Mission accomplised

Are you an insider?

or anything.

But at the end of the day if it survives I will be shocked.

It is "not polling well," which is the cover they need in DC.

Oh and here is a pattern for you.

Abortion is wrong, the RNC had the white house, and both houses (and the Supreme Court), tell me is Roe V Wade overturned or something and I missed it? Isn't that a signature issue for the family values crowd?

We need to reform health care... but they never gave single payer the time of day and now are turning on public option. Can you see the pattern?

Here you go Charlie Brown...

negativity.

call to actual real honest civil disobedience is too radical for most people in this country.

The propaganda has worked.

predictions is a riot. She's so wrong so often, it's remarkable.

"This is how they sell you the car you drive, you don't choose, they do."

My 11 year-old Hinda Civic would disagree.

"This is how they sell you the house you are at. you don't choose, they do."

Well..that's sure news to me since I've been in it for 20 years after inheriting it.

And you sure know how developments are sold to original owners.

This is the truth... it is all about MARKETING and creating a need for a certain brand

which addresses just that! bbc 4 part available on google video

I have been readying recently just on the food industry and how they create ahem, desire.

seem to know a lot of folks, hope you can spread it around too. it explains why it is so hard to 'change' things, especially if you read john taylor gatto's online book about the history of us education....
we really have an uphill slog.....
'

my list of people I know is limited but sent it already.

It is scary though because it also fits with the things we knew from marketing, or the marketing class (the single one) I took in another country.

What I love is the balance between the unrealized brute that has to be told what they want, or the rational actor that knows what she\he\it is doing.

The former seems to have won in the US... and the way people are manipulated by the use of fear is just down right scary (health care reform)... or to consume the greatest, and latest food product or new car...

I believe humans are rational actors, but at times I fear they might right. Most are truly irrational waiting to be told what to do. If this is true, then democracy is a fantasy.

I hope you're wrong, because if you're not...

had more people against it than for it.

You know how things work in DC... translate this to this is the cover they need to vote against it. I mean, it is NOT polling well.

Now this could turn around with quite a bit of CPR... but I am not counting on it.

Oh and the industry knows this. Why they rallied yesterday at WS when everybody else didn't do too well.

I have NEVER seen you give up. And you won't now. You're just a little down. All the negativity here has gotten to you. Well, don't LET it get to you. Don't give the folks who would like us to quit that much power over you. Your life has been an amazing one thus far. Don't stop now.

no more money, work or chiefly a vote from me.

If there is a third party candidate of the lefty persuasion they get my vote. If there isn't, I will leave that blank.

I will not vote for the republicans, or the democrats at this point.

When either has the majority they don't do what they promise their base... and throw the base under the buss. Well I am done playing this game.

Trust me, for me, local politics, and since my mayoral office is NOT party... well if I advocate for the green to run for my LOCAL office, I'd have a good chance of NOT knowing either. Nor would I bring that LOCAL race to this board. After all this board does not want to hear about local politics either.

Get a clue, I am done voting for them, period. And I have told them as much. This is the only VALID protest I have left in this corrupt system. Don't worry, my vote will be replaced by two or three idiots who still believe Lucy will not take the ball away from them. Perhaps even my donations, or work.

I know.

I understand.

I will not advocate against them, but I will not vote for them, unless it is a primary challenger who agrees with my politics after I do a lot of research of them to make sure it is not just empty promises... otherwise, I will not vote for the status quo. Hell I am this close to just NOT VOTING.

Clear enough for you?

Have a nice day.

I also know that saying no more playing in the system is very radical. I understand that.

One of the fears out there is that general tax revenues will be used to pay for part of the public option and that it will not be fully paid for by its member's premium payments.

If is was carefully explained that it would be funded entirely from its members premiums, that would help a lot.

That's the most fair and progressive thing to do.

:dem:

-Laelth

You can't have a combination of a public health care supported by taxes along with private insurance supported by premiums.

and we both know that.

This system looks like the system in Mexico, multiple tiered, and though coverage is better down there, and there are some islands of magnificent care, even in the public sector... overall it is failing precisely because of this.

Not a lot of employees with health plans from their employers who want that.

what are your qualifications and source of information? You may be right - but only because guessing is right 50% of the time

but this morning poll numbers should be a wake up call. They won't. It does not matter what happens, or how many let downs, the American people only care about their TEAM... and do not realize just how manipulated they are.

It is time to organize, it is time to demonstrate, it is well past time for some civil disobedience,

It won't happen. This is too radical... SNARF... and they know it. The power structure knows it.

quick, how did labor get the 40 hour week? They fought for it. It wasn't the dems, it was labor.

Why were unions legalized? Labor fought for it and they were legalized when the Dems needed to save their skin.

These days you are waiting for the crumbs and not willing to fight for the whole piece of bread.

That is way, WAAAYYYYY too radical.

Quick, when was the last SUCCESSFUL national strike? 1952

Why is that?

You want me to be wrong, and lord knows I want to be wrong, what are you willing to do?

full of hyperbole, on a message board.

you're obviously no slave, as you're here posting away.

And would you participate in a national strike?

For the record I participated in the three unsuccessful ones during the bush years... shocked that there were some?

I also participated in plenty of marches.

But this is getting to the point that we, the people, need to do something radical.

You figure this out.

70% want meaningful reform, we have majorities in both houses and the WH and they are saying they don't have the votes in the SENATE for the public option... 41 as of last night according to the story that KO ran.

Tell me, what is wrong with that picture?

And if you want to keep hiding your head in the sand and calling this reality a tanter trantrum, you are welcome to that too.

not sure on the strike.. perhaps.

we taking responsibility of our own options and doing a little old fashioned civil disobedience

Has anyone in this thread called it a "tanter trantum?"

You have an opinion. Some share it. Some don't.

When people post their opinion on a topic you start and it is different from yours, it's not an attack. It's other people using their good sense and reaching a different conclusion. When you go off on everyone who disagrees with you, it only increases the perception that a "trantum" might be involved, however.

there is no reason on god's little green acre to come up with a 'reform' and a 'plan' this fuckin complex.

the fact that it is that long, cobbled, and hobbled and everything in it but the kitchen sink has doom written all over it

I don't drive a car.

I buy my food from local farmers direct.

There is a solution. Consumerism is not nearly as gratifying as it cracked up to be. You can change your life drastically through your own decisions.

time for people to STOP playing the game

And as to health care, people need to realize, they want it, they will have to FIGHT for it.

Hell I buy my morning coffee from a LOCAL coffee shop... locally owned and all. I could go to Starbucks, but why?

car, that is terrific. do you realize how unique this is?

...as many of us said. It was dead when the administration refused to lay out any specifics of what it would require of a plan, so that "Obamacare" was not left wide open to any interpretation by the media or to wild speculation.

And it was dead probably before the 2008 election, with a corporate owned Washington, and corporates owned media, and the most political ill-informed public in history....

I just wish we could move on and fail on other issues now, I'm getting tired of failing on this one. It's like to fail at something new now.

those were both Edwards and HRC...

So what they are doing is what they said they wanted to do from word go.

Still Lucy and Charlie Brown come to mind.

the campaign, somehow its okay?

A public option is the minimum compromise one can have and still have meaningful health care reform. Whether someone said that during the campaign or not doesn't matter to me at all.

and if you believe in collusion in DC... that is exactly what is going on.

What does that remind you in classic Poli Sci definition?

Yes I sent a letter to the WH AGAIN, not that it will make a whit of a difference... this is no longer a democracy.

After that... it just isn't health care reform anymore.

A premium funded, self-sustaining Public Option fire-walled from most Americans, such that it will only have 10 million people in a decade, is a negligable "public distraction" that will not introduce new competition or offer real choice to the majority of the people. In fact, it is merely a tool to make the masses accept a band-aid solution to an extremists right wing health care system.

Single-payer, the socialization of insurance, is the centrist compromise between the free-market circus and socialized health care delivery. It still allows profit in delivery and private practicioners, yet fixes the ills of the insurance industry in one fell swoop.

in congress.

However, what you are saying is exaggerated, which is why corporate sponsored congressional representatives oppose it so strongly. They don't oppose it because it works for them - they oppose it because it doesn't.

But the country has slid so far to the right, they don't know where the real center is. The right wing (where many elected Democrats stand) won't give up a shred.


40 years ago it was Nixon proposing mandated private insurance, and Ted Kennedy suggesting single-payer as an alternative. The country has sure changed, and not for the better.


If you look at all possible healthcare systems, it is single-payer in the center. Unfortunately, America is still fucked up from the brown acid it took at Woodstock.

I understand the point you are making.

It depends.

Had Sebelius herself not walked back the Sunday comments, I'd agree with you. You had "administration officials" walking it back Sunday night, but that was clearly not enough.

The outrage was too great for them to throw it under the bus, at least right now.

If Obama comes out and states emphatically "I will only sign a bill with a public option" the public option is fully recovered.

IF not, the prognosis is still doubtful.

add to that the polls...

They got the cover they need.

Sebelius said that.

HE said that it was just a part of reform, not all of reform.

And could you give me a link to the poll you're citing?

as to the poll, MSNBC has been quoting it all morning, the CBS poll

I did not imagine that.

I also sent yet another, useless, email to the WH

I'm glad you're done. This kind of bullshit is toxic.

It took labor more than just a year or two to get the forty hour week.

You want health care reform? YOU WILL HAVE TO FIGHT FOR IT, CHARLIE BROWN. Lucy, no matter how many times she promises you that she will not take the ball away, will keep doing it until you decide to fight for it.

I know, this is a "mixed message" and quite radical. Oh and of course toxic. This is the way we try to sidestep the real issue and the real issue is that neither party will do what they promise to their base. If they did... then those issues would be gone and their base would stay at home.

Amazing people keep voting for these clowns. Next year, I promise... when we control the Congress, when we get a supermajority in the Senate. What is next, the super, duper, absolute majority?

And this idiotic Lucy/Charlie Brown crap... what's your target audience for this? 12-year-olds?

Do you really think everyone else is an idiot, and YOU'RE one of the FEW who realize that most politicians are corrupt? I got news for ya... we know. If you want to make an argument as to why we need to fight from within or without the system to change it, have at it... but this OP is useless... and because of the super-shitty subject line, yeah... it's toxic.

Fucking hell... whatever... go on with your bad self... maybe this kind of unhinged rant actually helps someone. I really seriously doubt that's the case, though.

Look it up in the dictionary, but this exactly the game BOTH parties are playing with their bases.

Since bases look at their leaders as TEAMS, well they never see this with their team, but it is clear as day with the other side. Well, it is BOTH sides that do it.

They can't do (insert issue here that is important to bases) when they have both houses and the WH... and that goes for both sides. Whether it is abortion... (2002) or now health care.

Are you really that dense? I GET IT ALREADY! Christ!

There is no "they"... there are corporatist Dems and better ones... you're just ranting like a lunatic... offering no solutions other than to go demonstrate for something you already said was DOA.

What utter crap.

demonstrating for something that is dead this legislative cycle is not dumb. It is the long view,

The kind of LONG VIEW gone in the United States, since it is seen as VERY RADICAL.

Are you willing to fight for something? I mean beyond trying to convince your legislators that when 70% of the population wants health reform, we should get one? If all you think you need to do is call congress and the WH... the corporations already won.

you can give a 10% commission to me for the tip.

enough to believe?

And how and what were the questions framed in these "polls"...Get real...It's nowhere near dead -

"Peace, if you want it!"

from co-ops and they keep saying that the public option is not that important.

Okie dokie

There is no public option I am done.

Because last time I looked industrial control over what we consume is a global phenomenon, and most political systems limit your (realistic) choice between outcomes in some way.

partly because their populations have a far better developed sense of what is civic action and will pick out and demonstrate, even paralyze their countries to drive their point home

The US may be in the upper limit, or beyond the upper limit of a representative democracy. But when you have 70% who want meaningful reform and you are not getting it, there is a problem.

At this point if this does not pass, I will be left with one conclusion, the US is no-longer a democracy. (Granted it died in 2000), but this is the point where it is more clear even... that it is no longer a democracy.

and expecting different results. It is like Charlie Brown and Lucy.

it will be different.

Partly more radical action has been deemed too radical.

Why I keep asking people, when was the last successful national strike? 1952

This is not a coincidence.

and never use prepared foodstuffs? Who knew? They chose that I bought a used suburu? Wow. they chose that I built a small energy efficient house using wood from a friend's woodlot and recycle materials?

Yes, I think I'm pretty damn free. And much of it is due to choices I made.

As to your other point, that the public option is likely dead, I agree and yes the stupid public was manipulated. But freedom is more than you seem to grasp.

That's just what THEY want you to think.

They put a radio in your head and tell you what to buy. They can make your saliva drool for a taco or two in a mall, and YOU CAN'T STOP IT!! You are a robot, and you don't have free will. You think you're choosing to eat healthy, organic food, but they own you.

they they they they they

They're everywhere! They're everywhere!

(I don't do smilies, so for those who need a cue about sarcasm, this is it.)

Maybe the public option is dead and maybe it isn't. No one knows yet. It's a little early to light one's hair afire and run around screaming "the sky is falling!"

Somebody fetch the smelling salts!

What a bunch of fucking whiners we have here!

Quit sniveling and call your Congresscritters already!

I will not be working for them, I will not donating money to them, I will not be voting for them.


They are dems.

Next... the WH

More people will wake up to what you are saying as time goes on. Kucinich says the public option is dead and I tend to believe him. I am waking up to the utter futility of trying to do anything within this system. We are not represented, and our voices do not matter. Money owns everything, including the media and the public discourse.

We need to start over, with something new.