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floridablue Donating Member (996 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 06:21 PM
Original message
Why so much conversation about windmills and solar whenever
the new economy is brought up. Isn't there anything else out there ?
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ParkieDem Donating Member (417 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. I wish people would really start talking about nuclear
because it's the only emission-free source that we could bring on-line in a short period of time. The technology is there and used extensively throughout the world (see France).

Solar and wind are great, but no matter how much we invest, it will be a long, long time before we could get truly reliable systems online. With nuclear, we already have the know-how and capability. People have (somewhat justified) fears about waste, but those concerns pale in comparison to CO2 emissions, in my view.
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damonm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Amen.
The ignorant have been scared silly by nuclear power for FAR too long.
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Chemisse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. I will remain scared silly until they find a safe way to get rid of the waste
They can build safer plants, but we are still stuck with nuclear waste that nobody wants and that will exist and be dangerous for many thousands of years.

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izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. Underground nuke plants
There is no waste problem if you build the plant where it can be decommissioned in place, like half a mile underground. When it has reached the end of its useful life, unplug it, backfill a couple of holes, and you're done.
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Chemisse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. I never heard of that idea - intriguing nt
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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. are you serious? why do you think there's such a problem with places like Yucca mountain?
where do you think the the megatons of nuclear waste are going to be disposed of there?

jesus
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izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Yucca is bad geology
It was more of a political decision to keep the Nevada Test Site going. WIPP on the other hand, is suitable geology. East of the Rockies, there are lots of suitable geological formations. On the leading edge of the continent, west of the Rockies, not so many.
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lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Have you done a cost estimate?
What about plant decommissioning? Leave the reactors and containment vessels in place? Will any of them last long enough for the radioactive byproducts to decay into "harmless" isotopes? What are the chances that it will break and leak hazardous material into the ground water at, say, 50 years, 100 years, 500 years, etc.

Has mankind EVER built anything that lasted 1000s of years (hint, we have, but it's not a useful comparison).

Additionally, Nuclear power plants consume enormous amounts of water, for your underground plant, what will be the source of that water, and, after it has been turned to steam, what do you propose to do with it?

And, finally, why haven't we (or some other nation) already done this... if it's such a safe alternative to what we and others have done till now? Surely someone would have thought this out as an option in the 1970s. They weren't completely ignorant of the dangers and challenges of operating nuclear power plants then.
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izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Below the ground water
Heat transfer mechanisms could use the earth itself. Half a mile down, the earth is around 70-80F depending on latitude.

"Somebody would have thought this out....." No, I don't think they have. The idea came to me when I was standing at the edge of a pit at the Hanford reservation, looking at half a nuclear submarine sitting in a big ditch. The previous week, I had been underground in New Mexico, half a mile down, looking at a room just as big, meant to receive barrels of nuclear waste. In the 1970s, nobody had a clue what to do with the waste, other than stick it in a 55 gallon drum and let someone else worry about it. They really were ignorant about what to do with the waste and other byproducts.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
24. CS Monitor has a good article on nuclear energy
Nuclear power’s new debate: cost


“You want to talk about bailouts – the next generation of new nuclear power would be Fannie Mae in spades,” says Mark Cooper, senior fellow at Vermont Law School’s Institute for Energy and the Environment. Dr. Cooper is among several economic analysts who contend that – waste and safety issues aside – nuclear energy is too costly.

“Funding nuclear power on anything like the scale of 100 plants over the next 20 years would involve an intolerable level of risk for taxpayers because that level of new nuclear reactors would require just massive federal loan guarantees,” says Peter Bradford, a former member of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission and former chairman of the New York State Public Service Commission.

Even if no loans were defaulted on, nuclear would be too expensive, Cooper says. The multitrillion-dollar cost eclipses most energy sources, such as wind power, which also has a sizable up-front capital cost. But wind’s lifetime cost is roughly one-third less than current estimates for nuclear, Cooper’s and others studies show. So who would want to invest in such costly electricity? Not Wall Street – at least not without loan guarantees.

<snip>
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Tikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Talking about nuclear is a waste....
Not somewhat justified...Completely justified...



Tikki
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Sebastian Doyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
21. Wow.....
15 posts, no profile, and a big fan of the nuclear industry.

Now I wouldn't want to imply anything here, but.... if this were a baseball game........
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
22. We'll put the waste in your back yard, 'kay? (NT)
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NightWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
26. Solar is clean, Wind is clean. Nuclear...not so much
Unless you want the waste housed in your back yard, let's not create a problem that the next several generations will have to deal with.
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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
27. You do know that the government has to INSURE
nuclear energy plants because NO INSURANCE company is stupid enough to cover them right?
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obliviously Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
29. No truer words were ever spoken! nt
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
4. Because the "new economy" is as bogus as solar panels & windmills.
We're still mired in the 1950's models for heath care, energy, and transportation. What's "new" about this economy? iPods?

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Chemisse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
6. I had hoped some of the stimulus money
Would be used to install solar panels on homes, thereby reducing the need for electricity produced by power plants.
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LaPera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
7. Give it time-republican have trashed the financing, gutted bills & gave tax breaks to every other
source including nuclear, except, clean renewable energy for decades after decades since 1981 (Reagan).
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abumbyanyothername Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
8. Geothermal, current and tides.
Biomass ethanol also has its backers, but unfortunately the corn lobby in the US might be even more powerful than oil or health.

Amory Lovins is also a big fan of the "negawatt" -- energy that you don't use. If we made our cars out of plastics instead of steel, we could save enormous amounts of energy. If we designed buildings smarter we could save on lighting and air conditioning. Taking this idea further on a personal level, many people are exploring the downsized life. Including this guy (http://sites.google.com/site/livingwithoutmoney/) who takes it to the absolute extreme.

One of my favorite ideas for the new economy is the profitless, growthless, economy (google, technocracy). Instead of stressing and straining to produce more and more, bigger, better, shinier and above all more profitable, we refocus our productive activities on doing more with less, or getting by on less. We simply cannot afford profit anymore so we just focus on producing what people need and then want to consume. As a society we value the solutions, not those that lead to the greatest profit, but those that provide the most benefit (or otherwise stated, are most desired) with the least inputs.
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Lagomorph Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
9. There's always....
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Does it open cans too?
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
10. Everyone's economic model is unrealistic fantasy
I would get this country started again by employing the workforce to tear up all roads, buildings, power lines and infrastructure. Then I would initiate the second phase of the economic transition by converting to an agrarian society. Thereafter, via sweat shops and slavery, we would have an industrialized revolution that would spawn the largest investment in infrastructure the world has seen. Then when the bubble burst, we would tear it all up again. Eventually the agrarian society would just grow pot and no one would give a fuck again.
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Lagomorph Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Who would invade first?
Canada or Mexico?

Wait!!!! Cuba!!!
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Screw that. How about South Dakota?
Annex them to Sri Lanka and then invade their ass. Limited casualties, with a good amount of rewards, and the population would greet us with flowers. People need to think outside the box to get this economy back on track.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
19. Here is a recent, widely accepted analysis ranking alternatives
http://www.rsc.org/publishing/journals/EE/article.asp?doi=b809990c

Energy Environ. Sci., 2009, 2, 148 - 173, DOI: 10.1039/b809990c
Review of solutions to global warming, air pollution, and energy security

Mark Z. Jacobson

This paper reviews and ranks major proposed energy-related solutions to global warming, air pollution mortality, and energy security while considering other impacts of the proposed solutions, such as on water supply, land use, wildlife, resource availability, thermal pollution, water chemical pollution, nuclear proliferation, and undernutrition.

Nine electric power sources and two liquid fuel options are considered. The electricity sources include solar-photovoltaics (PV), concentrated solar power (CSP), wind, geothermal, hydroelectric, wave, tidal, nuclear, and coal with carbon capture and storage (CCS) technology. The liquid fuel options include corn-ethanol (E85) and cellulosic-E85. To place the electric and liquid fuel sources on an equal footing, we examine their comparative abilities to address the problems mentioned by powering new-technology vehicles, including battery-electric vehicles (BEVs), hydrogen fuel cell vehicles (HFCVs), and flex-fuel vehicles run on E85.

Twelve combinations of energy source-vehicle type are considered. Upon ranking and weighting each combination with respect to each of 11 impact categories, four clear divisions of ranking, or tiers, emerge.

Tier 1 (highest-ranked) includes wind-BEVs and wind-HFCVs.
Tier 2 includes CSP-BEVs, geothermal-BEVs, PV-BEVs, tidal-BEVs, and wave-BEVs.
Tier 3 includes hydro-BEVs, nuclear-BEVs, and CCS-BEVs.
Tier 4 includes corn- and cellulosic-E85.

Wind-BEVs ranked first in seven out of 11 categories, including the two most important, mortality and climate damage reduction. Although HFCVs are much less efficient than BEVs, wind-HFCVs are still very clean and were ranked second among all combinations.

Tier 2 options provide significant benefits and are recommended.

Tier 3 options are less desirable. However, hydroelectricity, which was ranked ahead of coal-CCS and nuclear with respect to climate and health, is an excellent load balancer, thus recommended.

The Tier 4 combinations (cellulosic- and corn-E85) were ranked lowest overall and with respect to climate, air pollution, land use, wildlife damage, and chemical waste. Cellulosic-E85 ranked lower than corn-E85 overall, primarily due to its potentially larger land footprint based on new data and its higher upstream air pollution emissions than corn-E85.

Whereas cellulosic-E85 may cause the greatest average human mortality, nuclear-BEVs cause the greatest upper-limit mortality risk due to the expansion of plutonium separation and uranium enrichment in nuclear energy facilities worldwide. Wind-BEVs and CSP-BEVs cause the least mortality.

The footprint area of wind-BEVs is 2–6 orders of magnitude less than that of any other option. Because of their low footprint and pollution, wind-BEVs cause the least wildlife loss.

The largest consumer of water is corn-E85. The smallest are wind-, tidal-, and wave-BEVs.

The US could theoretically replace all 2007 onroad vehicles with BEVs powered by 73000–144000 5 MW wind turbines, less than the 300000 airplanes the US produced during World War II, reducing US CO2 by 32.5–32.7% and nearly eliminating 15000/yr vehicle-related air pollution deaths in 2020.

In sum, use of wind, CSP, geothermal, tidal, PV, wave, and hydro to provide electricity for BEVs and HFCVs and, by extension, electricity for the residential, industrial, and commercial sectors, will result in the most benefit among the options considered. The combination of these technologies should be advanced as a solution to global warming, air pollution, and energy security. Coal-CCS and nuclear offer less benefit thus represent an opportunity cost loss, and the biofuel options provide no certain benefit and the greatest negative impacts.


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Sebastian Doyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
23. Because we can never be truly "energy independent"
Until we can get our energy from something that does NOT have to be plundered from the ground (often someone else's ground).

Corporations hate the idea though, since it's impossible to own the sun or the wind.
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floridablue Donating Member (996 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-20-09 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #23
30. Hubert Humphry once said
The only reason we do not have solar power is that Exxon has not found a way to bottle the sun.
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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
25. I'll tell you what I want to see.
America at the dawn of the 21st Century reminds me a lot of the state of military affairs in the last quarter of the 18th Century.

At that time, the state of military affairs was surprisingly static. British soldiers were still carrying the Brown Bess muskets used by their great-grandfathers. Supply trains and artillery still used horse-and-wagon. Roads were improving, but not all that much.

What broke open military affairs in the 1770s was a breakthrough in ideas, the idea of subdividing an army and marching it by parallel roads, for example. The idea of marching an army in a formation from which it can instantly spring into action, instead of taking time to deploy.

Those were innovations in organization and method, and those are the same innovations which are going to save America's bacon, if anything does.

I'm pretty sure that one of those ideas will be to compete with the large corporations through small, employee-owned corporations which share their profits more equitably, reign in director-level salaries (because they will be employee-approved), and focus heavily on the first three things that the bloodsuckers on the traditional Board of Directors routinely sacrifice for pocket money: speed, quality, and customer service. They won't have the clout to lobby Congress for their biggest profits (tax breaks and subsidies), so they'll have to earn it through delivering a better product faster and with a smile.

I further suspect that the people who are going to do it are reading this right now. They're in their forties, fifties and sixties, having put in decades of labor to unthankful corporations that have recently dumped them to hire unqualified kids and to skimp on benefit payouts. They have, collectively, more institutional and practical experience than the corporations for which they once worked. They have their Rolodexes. They now also have the ability to plan and commiserate over infinite distance for negligible cost. And they're pissed.

So when they're ready, they'll be able to call up the best and the brightest, whom they already know, and tease them away from the corporate maw with the promise of equitably shared profits, unbeatable benefits, more autonomy and authority, and the flexibility of an association of like-minded people rather than the dour environment of the competitive (but collectively doomed) workplace. I sure hope someone calls me when that happens.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
28. Education, Healthcare, Housing and Transportation would be nice for Uncle Sam to invest in.
That's how they do it in Europe and Asia.
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