Who Would Jesus Deny Healthcare For? -- Obama Evokes Religious Leaders To Support HCR

Yes, I was wondering why all the religious right / Evangelicals were silent on the HCR issue. And it appears Obama has wondered at their silence as well. Obama is calling them to live up to their religious dogma and bring about support for the Healthcare Reform Bill.

From http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/20/us/politics/20obama.html?_r=2



These religious leaders are going to have a hard time refusing this call for help. Check out this stance on healthcare reform from an Evangelical church's website: http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/Social-Issues/Social-Statements/Health-and-Healthcare.aspx


Sounds like a bunch of socialists... but wait, there's more:


It sure sounds like these people can't be very happy with their Republican representatives!

I'm glad Obama is calling on them to speak up and advocate for reform. If they speak up loud enough, their Republican (and Blue Dog) representatives will not be able to ignore them.

What a way to fight guns and mobs: using the voice of morality and the teachings of the Prince of Peace.

Other than that....

:yoiks:

He asked God to forgive them.

I watched him say it last night...

He asked what would Jesus say, and his answer was Jesus would be for single payer insurance for all.

I love that story. The centurion, a hard-bitten, combat hardened man, accustomed to command, and a man of power in the most powerful military force in history, said simply "I believe that if you say he is healed, it will be so."

Although it says this nowhere in the Gospels, I believe that this centurion is the man who ordered that Jesus be given a drink of wine to relieve his thirst on the cross.

Jesus was a christian conservative, just ask one.

And the Dems are going without the Republicans. Stay with current events, please.

HR3200 has a Public Option in it. It's the current bill (along with the SHELP bill in committee) being debated. You can read the text of the bill yourself. I'm assuming you know how to search for it.

Obama stands by public option (26 minutes ago): http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hITfom2rwHxvzXH9fMrN4pOUGrqQD9A6O9C03

Democratic lawmakers prepare to go alone on Healthcare (3 hours ago): http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5gPjYuPQv-40nC_wyKl9rWpivXLPA

... and at times even from sources i have some trust/respect for.

In fact, Jesus said that healing her would be like taking the bread out of the mouths of children and throwing it to the dogs.

The worst modern-day HMO has nothing on Jesus.

Not that I put any stock in the writings of some scribe 2000 years ago.

Sort of like dealing with an HMO...

The little fantasy world that is Christianity can't stand up to even a surface examination of the facts on the ground? What?

I calls 'em like I sees 'em. Deal with it.

Jesus healed one man and then bolted off leaving a multitude of diseased and lame folk to race and try to be the "first" in the water after an angel stirs it up with healing power - only the first in the pool was lucky enough to be healed though. So if you were REALLY sick, you were pretty much fucked.

Which is crueler - Jesus healing one person and leaving scores of others behind unhealed or an angel making a bunch of sick people literally race to be the ONE that gets healed?

I'm not being a smartass - the verse is very clear in it's description of the event.......

:shrug:

The Woman's daughter was vexed with the devil and he *did* heal her. He also refused to turn her away when his disciples thought he should.

Second, even if you were a real person, you can't be slandered after you're dead. In a slander case, the injured person can bring a lawsuit against the person who made the false statement. How do you do that if you're dead?

Third, read Matthew 15. Jesus first says he won't heal her and gives as a reason for not healing her that which I cited above. Here's the verses from Matthew:

15:22 "And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil."

You're right that it was her daughter, but Jesus said in other verses that illnesses were caused by devils. So, her daughter was ill and needed to be healed. Next:

15:23 "But he answered her not a word."

So his initial response to her was silence, the cold shoulder. Nice empathy there, godman. Continuing:

"And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us."

You're right again. The disciples asked that he send her away.

15:24 "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Oops. Her daughter had a pre-existing condition, ie: she wasn't Jewish.

15:25 "Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me."

So, she worshipped him and asked for help. Jesus' response?

15:26 "But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs."

No he didn't! He just said he wouldn't treat her kid and that her kid was a dog.

15:27 "And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table."

Now, she's really groveling, lowering herself to the level of a dog sitting at the feet of her human master, agreeing that Jesus' description of her daughter as a dog is "Truth, Lord."

15:28 "Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour."

So, the prescription for Jesus deigning to heal you if you aren't a Jew is that you accept his description of you being a dog (and we all know what that connotation means in the ME), ie: that you aren't even human (you don't even rate as a human slave), that you accept that the person who calls you a dog is your master, and that this self-debasement made while pleading for the health of your child is considered by Jesus to be "great faith."

Fuck that shit!

And what if the woman had not insisted and had allowed herself to be put off by Jesus' initial silence and subsequent verbal refusals/excuses (two of them, BTW) to help her daughter? Her daughter dies and Jesus goes his merry way? That was a distinct possibility, wasn't it?

Jesus sucks.

truth verses another

So you can rush in and look like a numpty?

Tommy Douglas, a Baptist minister, and his whole philosophy was based on that very premise, that it's the "Christian" thing to do to have a Universal, all inclusive, non-profit health system.

says so here :D

he'd be backing single payer, not looking for a way to protect the insurance companies.

with it as he drove people and animals from the Temple:

Have you ever considered why the money changers (not lenders) were there in the first place? It had to do with the Temple not accepting Roman and other non-Jewish-approved coins for offerings. It had to do with the REQUIREMENT that every Jewish male offer a burnt offering to Yahweh once a year.

The Temple money changers were providing a much-needed service to the Jews in Jerusalem. They could be assured of a fair exchange rate on coinage they needed converted to something acceptable for donation to the Temple. Do you really think Jews would get a better deal from the Roman coin changers than they would from their own people?

They could be assured that the animal they purchased for a burnt offering at the Temple had been pre-approved by the rabbis. Imagine the relief that was for a person who traveled many miles to make their sacrifice at the Temple in Jerusalem - they could have brought an animal from home, fed it the whole trip, only to have the rabbis reject it as unclean for sacrifice. Having the option of buying a bird or lamb on site was a good thing for these people.

And what did Jesus do? Well, a modern equivalent would be to overturn the merchandise at the hospital florist shop. People are dying, and you're making money selling their family and friends flowers. The nerve!

Den of thieves? Hardly.

There's always two sides to the stories about Jesus.

slack. In the case of Jesus, it's worse. The assumption made is that everything he said and did was just wunnerful and hunky dory, and that if something he said or did seems vile or odd to us, then it must be because we humans just don't have the spiritual or intellectual depth to understand why what Jesus said was wonderful.

That's BS. The fact is that we as a species are smarter, more compassionate and more honest than Jesus ever was or could be, considering the era he supposedly lived in. We no longer accept slavery - Jesus did. We no longer champion the despotic government enshrined in the kingdom model to be something that people should emulate and aspire to. We no longer accept the caste system as being the way of things. We in the civilized world promote equality among all people, a concept that Jesus and his kingdom-oriented philosophy could never tolerate, let alone promote.

I don't protest too much. I simply protest at the level that is demanded to counter the loathsome teachings of religion in general and Jesus in particular.

If you choose to see Jesus as a historic man, it's to be expected that he accepted slavery & monarchy. So did Plato & Aristotle. In some ways, mankind has evolved. There's also the matter of four different authors of gospels plus the misogynist St.Paul who frequently contradict one another.

coming out of those books. Paul is a real piece of work. Present-day Xianity is actually Paulism.

As far Plato & Aristotle, they didn't claim to be eternal gods. Jesus did. There's a difference.

So apparently he didn't deny anyone his healing powers. I believe every time someone dies, who didn't need to, for lack of health care, that their Reps and Senators who voted against a national plan be charged with manslaughter or at least negligent homicide for their death. Maybe that will get their attention.

He healed one and left a sick crowd behind to play "first in the pool gets healed".......

The Bible doesn't explicitly say what happened to the others in the pool. But your making a conclusion about what happened anyway. Not to mention that you got the story wrong. Jesus didn't heal the first person. He healed someone who asked him because the old man didn't make it into the pool.

That's not what KJV says. Jesus approached the sick man, asked him if he wanted to be healed and then healed him. It says nothing of him healing the other "multitude" of sick folks before "Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in that place".

I suppose the point of the whole narrative was Jesus saying FU to the Jews who thought he shouldn't do Dad's work on the Sabbath. MY POINT is he could have made a much stronger point to the Jews by healing ALL the sick that were there and chose NOT to. Why?

And you are right - the Bible doesn't explicitly say that Jesus didn't heal the others in the pool. Since it doesn't say he didn't heal them I should infer that he did?

John 5

1After this there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

2Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.

3In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water.

4For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.

5And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years.

6When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?

7The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me.

8Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.

9And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.

10The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.

11He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk.

12Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk?

13And he that was healed wist not who it was: for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in that place.

14Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

15The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.

16And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

17But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

18Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

19Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

"thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee."

In other words, he'll get even sicker if he sins. That means that his long-time illness must have been the result of sin.

See, to Jesus - who was god and and was, according to John, from the beginning - who made everything in the universe, illnesses came from sinning. They didn't come from microbes or what have you. Yep. Jesus said that illnesses were caused by demons and by sinning.

The nonsense about an angel coming down to stir the waters isn't even worthy of discussion.

"no sinning" advice pretty sensible.

On the other hand, it says he was impotent. Why would Jesus cure a guy of impotence if he didn't expect him to get out there and live a little?

called it sinning. Unless you are a scholar and read the original Greek or Aramaic, whichever it was, who knows what the original word was that was used. I don't mind you doing some funning but please leave the straw men at home. You are making up that impotent thing to. Stick to the subject.

If you want to stick to the subject, let's stick to the subject.

Ever heard of midrash?

(We need catch phrases.)

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Go to church much? Do you really know what Jesus said? If you did, you would know that he told us all to give away our stuff and serve others.

How's that for your holy water? Burning a little?

no one really knows what Jesus said. Not even the 4 Gospels are in agreement, and that's with Matthew and Luke copying heavily from Mark.

You know what bothers me a lot about Jesus? Not once in the Bible do you read the words, "Jesus laughed," or even, "Jesus smiled."

He comes off as a putz.

Check out the Gospel of Judas. Jesus laughed a lot in that gospel, but, my oh my, that one didn't make it in the Bible.

:popcorn:

and could make some very strong arguments against the nonsense you're spouting. But I know you won't listen, so I'm just going to tell you to please go back to freerepublic and stop bothering people with brains. It only irritates us.

Here's hoping you a good pizza!

2. Social Security and Medicare are not disasters. So what comparable disasters are you talking about?

3. Why do you want people to die?

4. It is NET income, not GROSS.

5. Most small business owners do not net $250K a year. And even then the tax increase is only on the net OVER $250k. So they still pay the same taxes on their net up to that. How is taking slightly more taxes AFTER the first 250K such a burden?

6. Small businesses making up the majority (forget 90%) of our economy was recently exposed as a long-standing myth. The vast majority of the economoy is due to large businesses.

7. Neither Congress nor the President are exempt from taxes.

8. You're an idiot.

9. I wish the mods would expose your profile so we can see the tombstone.

10. Seriously. You are an idiot.

differing opinions. Because they have no valid counter argument.

SS, MediCare, MediCaid and the Post office are disasters because the run tens of billions each in the red every year.

Oh, since your are so curious, I opened my profile for all to see, just for you. There is not much to see.

Social Security is NOT operating in the red. Despite the huge hit by the recession, it is still operating in the black. Provide a link ot get lost.

You have made NUMEROUS statements that are factually and blatantly FALSE. I and other posters have provided credible links to show you are WRONG.

Hurry up and provide some links to back up your crazy assertions because our pizza delivery will be arriving soon.

Say that your a proud member of a few groups republican's love to smear.

If it talks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck then Graywarrior probably has it duct taped to a wall somewhere.

Jesus relied on his followers to give him and his disciples alms to support them. It seems like he did a lot of "piggy-backing" of his own. He also said unless you did stuff like feeding, clothing the poor and helping the sick referring to them as the "least of those", you would not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

for man cannot enter the Kingdom from works alone, but must confess his sins and accept Jesus as his savior. I can look up an exact verse if you wish.

If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

2And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

3If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast,* but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant

5or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;

6it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth.

7It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end.

9For we know only in part, and we prophesy only in part;

10but when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end.

11When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became an adult, I put an end to childish ways.

12For now we see in a mirror, dimly,* but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known.

13And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

Most Christians today have no love evident in anything they do. They are nothing.

Face it, they all gave up their jobs and left their families to follow this guy. What did they do for money and food? I'm guessing there were plenty of towns that rolled up the sidewalks when they saw the 13 hungry mouths hanging out at the city limits. Can you imagine, "Feed me and my buds, or you're going straight to hell!"

Their families were left to fend for themselves. When Jesus' family showed up to see him in Mark's Gospel, he disrespected them.

The doubling over with laughter is starting to attract attention from those who live with me. :D

I try to keep it entertaining.

I wanted to thank you for it. :)

BS. Fewer than 9% of all small business owners have income over $250,000, and only a fraction of those actually fall into the affected top tax brackets.

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=2697

Some critics of the President’s budget charge that his proposals to roll back tax breaks for taxpayers with incomes over $250,000 would harm small businesses. In fact, only 8.9 percent of people with any small business income have incomes of over $250,000 and, thus, would even potentially be affected by these provisions. (See Figure 1.) And that figure substantially overstates the percentage of people with small business income who would actually be affected by these provisions; for example, only 1.9 percent of people with such income currently are in a tax bracket with a rate higher than 28 percent. As a result, the percentage of people with small business income who would be affected by proposals to increase the top two tax rates or limit the value of itemized deductions to 28 percent of deductable expenses would be extremely small.

It is easier for a Camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. (Note that the eye of a needle was a small door inset into a gate at the time so it was possible just very very hard) And really wealth in this country does not equal success. There are plenty of fortune heirs running around to disprove you.

And guess what Jesus's stance on taxes? "Give to Ceaser what is Ceaser's". He was pro-Tax!

And with your splurge on self reliance which I don't remember any bible passages about, have you read the Sermon on the mount? Blessed are the meek for they will inherit the earth? Blessed are the peacemakers?

Jesus was not a republican and if he were around today he would not be a republican.

Thankfully, our Constitution was written by real men with real principles. Not some dude in a robe who claimed to have super powers.