It's OK to blow up a plane with over 250 people onboard.

You'll be released on "compassionate leave", so no worries.

I cannot believe this travesty.

Edit to change Americans to PEOPLE for the nitpickers.

If you blew up Cubana full of Caribbean students heading to University or athletes returning from competitions, you are protected by Jeb and his friends in Florida and never even go on trial let alone receive a sentence.

By the way the US government is not in charge of Scottish law or justice.

Terrorists should be punished, period.

until you're dying? I call it punishment.

I suppose you call it Club Med.

I'm perfectly fine with letting a dying man who is in no shape to be a threat to anyone go home. I am thinking more of his family than of him.

A man like him deserves absolutely no consideration , period. There shouldn't even be a discussion about this. What consideration did the passengers of that plane, or their families back home have? This guy is a fucking terrorist, out to kill innocents. Fuck him and his family forever.

there is no place for justice, let alone compassion, for too many here.

Just look at how many are still trying to justify the murder of well over a million innocents and the devastation of two countries over 9/11.

Good Christians, all.

:sarcasm:

My post only reflects my outrage.

I have a British citizenship too, so I am even more outraged...if that is possible.

the betrayal the families of the victims are feeling.

Compassion? For this murderous fuck?

Scotland fucked up. Fuck Scotland.................................

Beyond angry.

Obviously terrorism is not something that will be seriously punished.

We are fair game.

How much compassion did that fucker show the people on the plane?

Compassion?

I'd like to know what Scotland's getting - or not getting - in exchange for this deal.

It stinks, in every possible way. It just stinks.

And I wonder why he was allowed to hide his face as he boarded that ever-so-luxurious plane that was sent to bring him back to Libya.

And I wonder if he's really terminally ill.

And I wonder how any of those families of the survivors can possibly go on after a day like today. My heart breaks for them............

What compassion did he show?

And I heard (was at work, so didn't see a TV) that he was greeted as a hero upon his return to Libya. What a knife to the heart that must have been for the families of the victims.

Compassion is not selective - over matters justice and compassion I'll side with the Europeans and English law over the US in these times.

You may know I lost a friend on Cubana. As I posted earlier today I had dinner with her aging parents and one of her sisters last Saturday. They miss their child but they aren't as bitter and vengeance-loving as those Lockerbie victims' relatives. So what if he goes home to die -how does making him die in prison help them with their loss?

All of them lost loved ones and at least there was a trial for the Pan Am victims. The Cubana bombers still walk free. When I asked my friend's mother how she felt about the bombers walking free, her response was that no matter what happens, it won't bring back the last 33 years of their daughter's life.

are better people than I am.

That this Lockerbie murderer should be allowed the comfort of seeing the sky, breathing fresh air, enjoying a meal, savoring the embrace of his loved ones galls me, because he willfully and maliciously made sure all those people on that plane would never have those experiences again. I don't think he should have anything that he took away from innocents.

I didn't know that you lost anyone in the Cubana matter, sis, and I am so sorry for you. Another venomous crime, and it is beyond hateful that those monsters are walking free.

You and that mother and father are generous and loving and far more evolved than I am, and I salute you all for that. I cannot, I simply cannot accept this man's release...............................

I heard one of the Lockerbie relatives make a similar statement. I respect their feelings. Many of the others do not feel that way.

But it goes beyond that.

There should be NO RELEASE for those who terrorize, no matter their nationality.

cal04 (1000+ posts) Sun Aug-28-05 01:06 AM
Original message

Police chief- Lockerbie evidence was faked

Edited on Sun Aug-28-05 01:09 AM by cal04
A FORMER Scottish police chief has given lawyers a signed statement claiming that key evidence in the Lockerbie bombing trial was fabricated. The retired officer - of assistant chief constable rank or higher - has testified that the CIA planted the tiny fragment of circuit board crucial in convicting a Libyan for the 1989 mass murder of 270 people.

The police chief, whose identity has not yet been revealed, gave the statement to lawyers representing Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed Al Megrahi, currently serving a life sentence in Greenock Prison. The evidence will form a crucial part of Megrahi's attempt to have a retrial ordered by the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission (SCCRC). The claims pose a potentially devastating threat to the reputation of the entire Scottish legal system.

The officer, who was a member of the Association of Chief Police Officers Scotland, is supporting earlier claims by a former CIA agent that his bosses "wrote the script" to incriminate Libya. Last night, George Esson, who was Chief Constable of Dumfries and Galloway when Megrahi was indicted for mass murder, confirmed he was aware of the development.


The insider said: "He said he believed he had crucial information. A meeting was set up and he gave a statement that supported the long-standing rumours that the key piece of evidence, a fragment of circuit board from a timing device that implicated Libya, had been planted by US agents. "Asked why he had not come forward before, he admitted he'd been wary of breaking ranks, afraid of being vilified. "He also said that at the time he became aware of the matter, no one really believed there would ever be a trial. When it did come about, he believed both accused would be acquitted. When Megrahi was convicted, he told himself he'd be cleared at appeal." The source added: "When that also failed, he explained he felt he had to come forward. "He has confirmed that parts of the case were fabricated and that evidence was planted. At first he requested anonymity, but has backed down and will be identified if and when the case returns to the appeal court."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1732385

:hi:

what's happened since? Is this part of the appeal he had to drop in order to get released?

Because, if that's the case, Scotland is nothing but the CIA's bitch...................

They let this revelation blow over for a couple of years, then released an innocent man using the false pretext of a "compassionate release" because he's sick...

That's just *my* opinion though.. YMMV...


Peace,

Ghost

flight who are GLAD he is being shown compassion, and have grave doubts about his guilt.

We here in the US seem to forget that other people exist. I'm humbled by the actions that Scotland has taken, and applaud them for showing mercy to a dying man. He won't be any less dead soon, and his family, who are victims as much as any of the victims family are, can at least say good-bye. Denying them that right, by keeping him in prison when there is no hope of possible recovery, and when he was unlikely to live to see his appeal go to trial would be nothing but spiteful and cruel to his family.

I disagree with Pres. O and many other people i admire and respect on this issue- but we MUST be the change we hope to see in this world.

Scotland did the right thing on this issue i believe.

And my heart goes out to everyone who has suffered, and continue to suffer as a result of this tragic flight.


(you may want to look into some of the evidence used against him- and at his statements about the incident)


peace~

:applause:

i just wish we could get past this way of living.

Life is hard enough.

peace~

Apparently, Scotland gives aid and comfort to terrorists. This is beyond appalling. The bastard should have died in prison.

A cowardly and vindictive people who not only built and maintain the world's largest prison system (where they eagerly put juveniles for life- since they can no longer execute them) -but had very little problem crossing the line into torture, for which they held almost no one to account.

Right-wing psychopathy at it's finest.

CIA/Team B, anyone?

just DUgoogle ''Lockerbie CIA''

tin foil hat optional

you think it's impossible?

lookit the names involved....

I feel much better now.

Sheesh.

couldn't pull something like that off?

did you read any of the material surrounding this?

do you know anything about the movie that came out in 1994, detailing what probably happened? do you know the name of it? do you know why the US government fought so HARD to keep it away from the US? to this day, it's never been screened here

and don't bring up the Libyan financing BS, btw

else is one to interpret it, oh, supreme master of total and constant bullshit?

pretty tough choice....but it's interesting to see all the authoritarianist-swallowing legions swarming about these days

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6352446&mesg_id=6354969

since he/she/it knows everything, I'm certain that Swire can learn something about it from our self-acknowledged expert on all topics under the sun and moon

Why don't the idiots here know about this simple aspect of this case?

But yes, this decision to release this terrorist does indeed demonstrate right wing psychopathy...I would only say, however, at its WORST.

any possibility of error.

It's a HELL of a lot easier to respond to pain and loss with anger and vengeance- to demand that someone "pay" for the suffering that results from something like this, it takes compassion, forgiveness and mercy to NOT want to "stick it to them" and then some in response.

Was Gandhi a right wing psychopath? MLK jr? if so, then let me be one too.

The O/P is a single corpuscle who doesn't even care that the man may have been framed, never mind the other issues you brought up.

just blinded by anger. I understand it, but can't endorse her perspective.

life can be so painful- we can't control others, but we do have a chance at controling ourselves.

:hi:

:shrug:

her outrage. But life has shown me how futile, and self defeating that can end up being. Not saying i'm superior, or that i've stopped learning what i need to learn, just saying we all get mixed up, and respond in ways we later come to believe are mistakes. It is good to be patient with each other whenever possible.

I don't agree with the OP, but she's still every bit as 'worthy' as me. (not a corpuscle)


i know i'm really weird- but that's ok-

peace~

to all of us.

:grouphug:

There are days when I recognize that somebody is just having a bad day, but I'm not familiar enough with the original poster of this thread to know if this is the case here.

This is obscene.

He should have masturbated more when he was younger. That's his problem.

there is no hard evidence that he is sick and guess what? Her husband was diagnosed with prostate cancer 10 years ago, still alive and kicking.

There is nothing wrong with this guy.

It was a deal.

It makes me want to vomit.

Snip:

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/2009/08/22/megrahi-welcome-scenes-in-libya-prompt-furious-calls-to-launch-scotland-boycott-86908-21615376/

quote from paper:
But yesterday one Libyan newspaper, the Tripoli Post, said onlookers had been shocked at the state of his health.

They claimed not enough had been done for him at Greenock prison and his case could be viewed as"premeditated murder" on the part of the prison authorities.

It is understood his cancer has now spread to his lungs.

One source said: "He is very sick indeed and has not got long to go. Despite him looking rosy-cheeked when he jetted out on Thursday, it is misleading, this is a dying man."

because M$Greedia forgot to tell us this little piece of information

https://twitter.com/SenJohnMcCain


And here:

John McCain Praises Libyan Leader Gaddafi

Sen. John McCain, visiting Libya this past week, praised Muammar Gaddafi for his peacemaking efforts in Africa. In addition, McCain called for the U.S. Congress to expand ties with Gaddafi's government, according to Libya's state news agency.

McCain had a face-to-face meeting with Gaddafi, which he detailed on his Twitter page with the following message:

Late evening with Col. Qadhafi at his "ranch" in Libya -- interesting meeting with an interesting man.

After once being designated a state sponsor of terrorism in the wake of the Pan Am bombing over Lockerbie, Scotland, Libya has seen its diplomatic ties fully restored under the Bush Administration in return for dismantling its nascent nuclear program. Since then, Libya has been instrumental in securing peace deals between warring factions in Africa.

More:
http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/08/17/john-mccain-praises-libyan-leader-gaddafi/

:hi:

if he goes on to live a long life, that Scottish guy is going to feel really stupid.

I do not believe he is even sick.

This was a deal.

270 Americans fell from the sky. Who cares?

If we had any of the 9/11 terrorists alive, would they get out on compassionate leave too?

Is it only "Americans" you value?

NO ONE here has said that the bombing wasn't terrible... except you, sarcasticly.


:shrug:

What should I call them?

OK, over 250 people fell from the sky. 11 Scots died on the ground.

You are deliberately being an ass. You are quite good at it too.

hatred.

It's a downward spiral that humans have been trapped in since the begining of time.

And American lives are no more precious than any other life- if you believe they are, then i truly pity you.


May you know comfort and peace~

This guy is getting what he deserved.

but I don't think he'll go on to live a long life, either.

One of the curious things we found out about that sort of thing was when my MIL was placed in hospice. I don't know about other states, but in Mass the patient has to have a six months or less survival prognosis in order to qualify for hospice.

What often happens is that, because of the more personalized and better care, patients often end up surviving a bit beyond the original prognosis, requiring another qualifying prognosis from the doctor.

I don't know if this guy will get hospice care, but any care he gets at home will more than likely be better than he'd get in prison. And then there's the psychological factor as well.

So he may, or may not, end up living past his prognosis. If he does, it doesn't mean the doctors were wrong, and people shouldn't suspect anything dishonest or underhanded on the part of the doctors...

:)

Furthermore, the deaths of 250 "Americans" counts as no more outrage-worthy than the deaths of any other human beings on this planet.

Considering that our country has been responsible for the deaths of at least a thousand times more other human beings elsewhere in the world, we ought to acknowledge that we've gotten off easy.

I don't give a fuck about this one guy. Even if he did have some hand in that particular event -- which is in no way certain -- he is far less culpable for the misery visited upon innocent people than our own government.

He will die. Can the same be said for our imperialist foreign policy establishment that orchestrates and oversees the deaths of millions over the past 6 decades?

sw

:applause:

He will die. Can the same be said for our imperialist foreign policy establishment that orchestrates and oversees the deaths of millions over the past 6 decades?
----------
How are the American deaths in Iraq any different?

or any other nationality.

But terrorists should be punished, not released on "compassionate" grounds.

Amazing.

So if some asshole terrorist takes YOU out, you'll be smiling all the way down because you are a terrible American right?

yeah, sure.:puke:

question about this persons actual guilt-

there is NO question that the US is responsible for the murder of countless innocent Iraqi's and Afghani's.

it sucks- i despise the truth of it, but you can't deny what "we've" done, or at least not stopped our government from doing.

about the guy not being sick is backed up by no evidence. My grandfather died of Prostrate cancer and it was a horrible painful death, this guy got his karmic payback.

He could have died just as easily in prison.

THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!

it was 180 Americans, according to the Wikipedia account. This doesn't diminish what has occurred I know........

Not that it matters how many people, but this wiki account CLEARLY says 243 passengers and 16 crew members, not to mention the 11 on the ground!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103

I'm referring to the headline of the post. Out of all the dead, 180 were American.

god, this is amazing to me.

Americans, Indians, French, British, Iraqi...they are all HUMAN BEINGS that were BLOWN out of the sky, for crying out loud!

The fucking criminal is being eaten alive by cancer - he is not like he is going on vacation in the bahamas.

Shit. What would God do? This seems to be the new thing around here, re - animating God and asking his opinion.

It's disgusting!

I wondered why I saw nothing about this on DU all day. Now I know.

I am amazed at DUers tonight.

Bookmarking so I can see if any of these apologists dare to be outraged at the next terrorist attack. Surely they will not be...and I guess 9/11 meant nothing to them.

Poor misunderstood, maligned terrorists.

Good Christ, I have got to sign off or my head will explode.

Thank you again.

of the responses!

This a travesty of justice.

If I am wrong, tear up my lib card now.

I hope the fucker rots to death!

like someone down below pointed out.

It's NOT OK that this guy blew over 200 lives out of the sky, and nobody ever said so, and nobody is defending the guy for doing it.


The point you are missing is that civilized people are often able to find it in their hearts to exercise a little compassion...if not toward the criminal, then toward his family. Exercising compassion doesn't mean forgiveness, although unless you had a friend or relative on that flight, you are not in a position to grant or deny forgiveness.

I dare say that I've seen some extremely brave and civilized people whose loved ones were murdered be able to grant forgiveness to the person who did the crime.

Forgiveness isn't FOR the person being forgiven. It's for the person doing the forgiving.


So imagine that...people who have been hurt to the very cores of their souls...forgiving...extending compassion.

While some people carry on with self-justified rage over something that didn't even affect them.

There's something wrong when people who haven't been personally touched by a tragedy go into unruly mob mode while people whose lives are changed forever can act more civilized.

Yeah, you would.

family hostage one day.

Let us know how that works out for you, OK?

In fact, if people are mean and vengeful enough, it'll stop all crime and bring back the victims.

What ever happened to loving thine enemies?

I have mixed feelings about it all.

What he did was reprehensible. I understand the rage and disgust of the families of the victims.

But maybe the compassion isn't so much for him as for his family, who, after all, are innocent of the crime. Perhaps he doesn't deserve to spend the last few months of his life in the bosom of his family, but geez...don't THEY deserve to have him for the last few months of his life?

Why should they be punished for his crimes? Even scumbags have people who care about them...

:shrug:

because they have families that care about them.

OK.

Right.

Don't twist what I wrote, thanks very much.


What I said is that he DESERVES to be in prison.

I said I have mixed feelings on this. Because not everything in life is black and white.


If the people who run the prison system feel it's compassionate to allow dying prisoners to return to their families, then perhaps the compassion isn't so much about the prisoner, it's about the family.


I think people don't know how to put themselves in another person's shoes. OK, so let's say you have a family member who's been imprisoned for some crime. Maybe it's not even murder. Maybe it's something less heinous, but still a rather hefty sentence...like a couple of years...and this person gets a terminal illness.

Someone compassionately thinks of you...your family...and allows this person out to die at home.

You're seriously going to tell me that you wouldn't jump at the chance to have your loved one home? Especially if, like most family members, you refused to believe the person was guilty.

OOOOOkay!

:+

It's just that that particular poster is enraged over this topic for whatever reason and is lashing out at anyone who sees things differently.

There's another thread around someplace in which I have asked her if her rage and disgust toward what she calls "terrorist apologists" (or whatever the term was) is a result of having lost friends or family in a similar fashion.

If that's the case, then fine...I can understand her rage and the really snarky comments.

If not, then I honestly don't see how someone who hasn't been personally affected by something like this can sit around accusing people of all manner of things just because they think compassion is civilized.

WTF....

This man was lawfully convicted of the crime of mass-murder. The consequence was that he was sentenced to live the rest of his life in prison - probably a better fate than that of the poor people on that plane. He didn't give them the chance to die a natural death at home surrounded by their family. He commited a crime for which the sentence was life in prison, and life should mean just that - life. I don't think it's unreasonable to feel that there should be severe consequences for this type of crime. If that makes me vindictive, so be it.

Oh, and if the doctors are wrong there's going to be a lot of explaining to do.

I hit "recommended" and nothing is registering. With all the outrage on this thread, I can't believe there isn't one "recommended". WTH???

and balanced against the rec's.

not sure, but that's my understanding.

well not seems, I actually have heard many american citizens saying how bombings in the middle east where "thousands more woman, children and innocent mens lives are lost" are acceptable to them, no worries, no love lost since to them they are nothing more than numbers.....


war is hell any way you look at it, and anywhere you look at it apparently in his country he was and is considered a hero, strange huh?



Now how in the world can people be idolized and be considered heroic for being the person responsible of the death of innocent lives?






what a strange world we live in....:shrug:

And that may be why they let him go back to die with his wife and 5 kids.

Browse the stories and tell me you don't start smelling something rotten.

The evidence is described by some who were there as circumstantial.

The Libyans sent two guys over to be tried. One was acquitted. One was charged. I think the Libyans thought both would be acquitted. Why? Because they knew that they didn't do it.

But someone had to pay.

Methinks that Lockerbie is going to be one of those deals where we will never know what actually happened.

Why are you all so sure he's guilty?

I thought you were talking about Iran Air flight 655 that the US shot down with 290 passengers...

We only kill civilians in the name of truth, justice, and the American corporations, so it's clearly a completely different matter.
:eyes:

even if they are fucking mass murdering scum.

Fuck all the terrorists bastards and their supporters - let them all rot in prison.

The main criticism I have of Scotland is that they should have executed that motherfucker and televised it in Lybia.



mark

I just saw your response this morning.

:thumbsup: :hi:

He still did the jail term. If you think he should die in jail, say so, but what is the point of exaggerating to the point of losing credibility? No one ever said it was "OK" to carry out the crime.

If he only has a couple weeks left to live - it might be an unpopular view but I think it shows "we" are able to show compassion to someone who had none.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

-whose unquenchable thirst for a pound of flesh made it comparatively easy to turn them into a nation full of torturers.

:thumbsup:

khadafi is the mastermind, not this bozo/terrorist