Need a good come back to the following statement

Another poster on another board posted this.

"People have forgotten that healthcare is not a right as ob has said in the debates, it is a luxury."

Thanks

IMSA

Just like with civil rights(kind of a stretch), we need to ensure it becomes a right.

And it's not a matter of if, but when.

liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I have the right to life. Medical care is life.

That statement is the last bastion of the complete asshole. "I got mine, fuck you. Rich people are more important than you. Fuck you." Then when you are done berating this fucking jerk ask him why politicians get free health care if it's a luxury and not a right.

Should government be giving me those things as well?

and the government DOES provide those things to people already.

Do I have any responsibilities? Or just rights?

Really? All I have to do is obey the law and I get stuff from the government for free?

That is a completely unjust arrangement. Food, clothing, shelter, and yes, health care do not miraculously appear out of thin air. They are products of people working. What "right" do I have to demand that other people work to provide the stuff that I need to live, without giving them something of equal value in return?

and we live in a society not a jungle. If someone can't provide those things for themself, we don't just let them die of hunger, starvation and frostbite in this country.

To the extent that private enterprise can provide these needs at a reasonable, fair cost on a universal basis, they may but ultimately when they abuse the privilege to provide those goods and services to the citizens then the government has an obligation to do so in their place.

"Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society." - Oliver Wendell Holmes.

"A Republican is someone born on third base who thinks they hit a triple". - Unknown

If I work more hours, am I entitled to more stuff? If I work harder than someone else, am I entitled to get a better car, a better food, a better house, gasp!--better health care? Or should we all live with exactly the same standard of living regardless of how much effort we put forth in life?

but yes - you are entitled to a better car, better food and a better house provided that "worse" food doesn't mean food that is bad for you.

That doesn't mean that people who can't work for some reason deserve to starve, live out doors and have no healthcare and no public transit.

Put down the Ayn Rand or find a new board.

Doug D.

Do THEY have an obligation to work? I ask for clarification because earlier you said that "no one" had and obligation to work. If you really meant that everyone who is able to work has an obligation to work, you and I are in complete agreement. I have no problem with society caring for those that cannot work.

People are NOT obligated to work - Lincoln freed the slaves.

People DO work however because they want to.

There are very very few people who voluntarily choose not to work who are not independently wealthy and to make such a miniscule exception the basis for denying people healthcare in this country is the very definition of right wing insanity.

Doug D.

People are NOT obligated to work - Lincoln freed the slaves.

Except for doctors apparently, who have an obligation to provide health care to other people. :eyes:

People should not be forced against their will to be charitable to those who do not deserve the charity?

When you were a child the police and military protected you from threats. Various government agencies protect your food, your drinking water and the air you breathes from toxins and contamanent. Your education was funded by tax payers. By the time you turn 18 you have probably collected $80,000 in public funds for your K-12 education, if you go to college in an in state school you probably collect another $30,000 in public funds and various grants.

Your whole life you have absorbed the benefits that other people have paid for. Now you balk at being asked to pay taxes to return on the investment other people have made in you.

I believe that paying taxes is my duty, and if I fail to pay taxes I loose my right to live in this society.

You seem to be using the moral values of individual freedom and reciprocation (good and bad). Being forced against your will to provide goods and services to people who aren't smart or hard working enough to earn them on their own seems to violate the moral code you are using in your argument.

A rebuttal to that is that the entire system is designed that way, which I explained in another post about education or various government agencies (SEC, FDA, CDC, military, police) which protect you from toxins in the environment, military threats, street crime and white collar crime. After absorbing the benefits other people have invested in you, you balk at being asked to return the favor and pay your own share. If you don't like paying your dues in a civilization, you shouldn't get the benefits. If you don't want to pay taxes, don't drive on the roads.

A more progressive frame is community and individual ability to achieve ones goals and contribute back because of the protection and opportunities offered by the community. Stephen Hawking is a great physicist, but had he not had health care provided to him he never could have come up with his ideas and shared them with the world. Everyone contributes and benefits from living in a collective society. You pay (if you were British) for Stephen Hawking's healthcare, and he is able to pursue his dreams of learning physics and contributing to our knowledge of the world. You pay for my education, and I contribute back by being a scientist. I pay for your healthcare and you contribute back by being a good parent.

I never said I don't like paying taxes. Read my post "Democrats are not Communists" (which has not post # for some odd reason...)

Next question.

So I have an obligation to work? Does everyone have an obligation to work, or just me?

I think you might be more comfortable at FR - you've got that self centered thing down pat.

Democrats are the party of "we" - Republicans are the party of "me".

Doug D.

We are the party of FDR, not Karl Marx. And what did FDR say?

"Taxes, are the dues that we pay for the privileges of membership in an organized society."

If you don't work and you don't pay taxes, you have no right to the privileges of an organized society.

Food shelter clothing and medicine are basic human rights - the UN charter on human rights says so and we are a signatory.

Privileges (like a driving license) have qualifications attached to them.

People are NOT obligated to work and there are many amongst us who simply are too old, too sick or too young to work.


You are quoting straight out of the libertarian Ayn Rand playbook...

and YES I work and probably make more than you do and pay more taxes than you by the way.

Doug D.

...also says that everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible. One of those "duties" that make the "full development of his personality is possible" is the paying of taxes. The reason the UN declaration of rights has a clause addressing the duties of a person is because the authors recognized that duties must be tied to rights. It is completely illogical to say on one hand that people have a right to health care while simultaneously insisting that nobody has an obligation to work to provide that health care. If nobody works, there is no health care. I'm sorry if that logic of the universe offends you, but that is simply the way things are.

Most people obviously will and do work - there is no obligation to work however. Suppose I am a trust fund baby who has inherited millions of dollars. By your rule, I should have to go to work regardless of the fact that there is no actual financial point my doing so.

Many people simply can NOT work - the sick, the old, children, the disabled - yet by your rule they have no value ahd society should discard them.

And by your rule if they aren't rich enough or smart enough to figure out how to make enough money to afford unaffordable health care again they should be discarded and they have no right to health care.

You are spouting off right wing libertarian crazy talking points which have no place on DU.

Go find a libertarian board and spout off there.

Most people obviously will and do work - there is no obligation to work however. Suppose I am a trust fund baby who has inherited millions of dollars. By your rule, I should have to go to work regardless of the fact that there is no actual financial point my doing so.

The world would be a far far better place if the Paris Hilton's and the George W Bush's of the world weren't allowed to live off the hard work of their parents and had to pull their own weight.


Oh, can you please stop with the obligatory "Get off this board comments" that end every one of your posts? DU rules clearly state:

"Do not publicly accuse another member of this message board of being a disruptor, conservative, Republican, FReeper, or troll, or do not otherwise imply they are not welcome on Democratic Underground. If you think someone is a disruptor, click the "Alert" link below their post to let the moderators know."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html

in one form or another.

And it is their duty and obligation to do so.

Read two of your posts:

Post 18: Other people's rights (such as healthcare) ARE your responsibility.

Post 23: No you don't have an obligation to work - nobody does.


How can you not see that these two statements completely contradict each other?

It has been so since the beginning of time. People banded together and spent their days hunting, building dwellings, guarding against predators, making clothes, cooking the hunted and gathered food, etc. Everyone contributed. Our society today is simply a more complicated version of that basic precept.

When people are sick and don't receive proper health care, they can't be productive and they can't work, which in turn brings in the taxes to pay for our roads, our schools (which educates kids so they won't become the criminals who breaks in to kill you in your sleep), fire department, postal service, etc. It's in everyone's interest to keep ALL people healthy and productive in order to achieve an advanced societal standard of living.

If it makes you feel better, don't think of healthcare as a right. Think of it as necessity instead.

Sometimes in my effort to point out the obvious to people I lose my compassion. The way you described things is much better.

:D

First we have duties, most of which can be swept under the "obeying the law" rug, but specifically include paying taxes, defending the country, serving on juries, and attending school. Some sources, like this one, include voting as a duty, rather than a responsibility, but we see how that works in practice.

Then we have responsibilities, which according to the judge above includes being informed about the government and one's own personal rights, participating in government, and respecting diversity and the rights of others. Entire books are written about each one of those things, and we theoretically are supposed to know all that, or deduce it, too.

But it's all crap. The only people who can be reliably trusted to know most of these things are those who actively seek citizenship. Our system of government actually relies heavily on non-participation, at the ballot box and in government itself. Those of us who do vote probably get the heebie jeebies at the thought of some ignorant fool canceling us out just because he has to vote. One-half of our two-party system has complete contempt for diversity and the rights of others, wants to remove as many personal rights as possible, and wants to move the burden of taxation entirely upon the shoulders of those who can least afford it--and they're ruthless, too.

The more one looks at the United States, the more one wonders how it runs at all, how its citizens can call themselves free when they can't define the word itself (hint: its in the first two paragraphs above), how any decent person can navigate the ceaseless corruption which underpins our government, and why we can't or don't wish to change it.

But then again, I'm in a bad mood today. Maybe tomorrow I'll start thinking about people like Smedley Butler and Medgar Evers and all the other Americans I like to call my own, instead of owning all the people I don't like.

Health care is like legal protection, you either need none or you need tons.

In the US we spend about 2.5 trillion a year on healthcare.

The sickest 1% use 22% of that money
The sickest 5% use 49% of that money
The sickest 20% use 80% of that money

On the other hand

The healthiest 80% use 20% of that money
The healthiest 50% use 3% of that money

So the sickest 1% of the country (3 million people) spend 7x more on healthcare than the healthiest 150 million people. That isn't how clothes, housing or a car are funded. Those are affordable payments that come down to several hundred a month.

As a result, the funding mechanism used to buy clothes, food or housing is not the same as the funding used to pay for healthcare or law enforcement.

You also need fuel. Electricity, heat in the winter. You want the government to stop regulating these so if you don't have the $7000 a month to cover your power bill you freeze to death?

If you think health care is a privilege that only the wealthy deserve then you are an asshole. Period.

Next.

you're speaking to a moron......................

Getting money when you're old and retired isn't a right either, but the government runs the Social Security program for everyone.

There is a difference. When somebody contributes to Social Security they are part of a social contract that basically assures that they will eventually benefit from the contributions of others, just as others benefit from their contributions. Many of us have parents who are collecting Social Security, so we can see the benefit. Those same parents may have paid taxes over the years that provided an education for their children and the children of other people. Societies decide the level of inter-generational participation in the common good. If one wants out of the contract, there are countries in Africa where there is no social contract infrastructure. One can live and die with the freedom of not having to participate in a social contract. Better yet, there are nearly unoccupied islands - islands onto themselves. If one doesn't want to be part of this society, one has options.

I know it's a little flowery, but it is catchy and you can recycle it for other teabagger remarks.

You're welcome.

"all men are created equal and are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that amongst these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."


The primary purpose of medical care is to preserve LIFE.

I would then also point them to the NINTH Amendment which reserves unenumerated rights in the Constitution to the people. Just because it doesn't say explicitly in the bill of rights that you have a right to health care doesn't mean that that right doesn't exist - it exists (like your right to privacy) in the 9th Amendment.

:P

you used to be able to get an M-1 rifle.

If you read the 2nd Amendment it says your right is "to keep and bear", it doesn't say you have a right to gov't provided arms but merely a right to keep and bear them for purposes of belonging to your state's militia (in modern terms the National Guard).

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


From Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preamble_to_the_United_States_Constitution

An example of the way courts utilize the Preamble is Ellis v. City of Grand Rapids, 257 F. Supp. 564 (W.D. Mich. 1966). Substantively, the case was about eminent domain. The City of Grand Rapids wanted to use eminent domain to force landowners to sell property in the city identified as "blighted," and convey the property to owners that would develop it in ostensibly beneficial ways: in this case, to St. Mary's Hospital, a Catholic organization. This area of substantive constitutional law is governed by the Fifth Amendment, which is understood to require that property acquired via eminent domain must be put to a "public use." In interpreting whether the proposed project constituted a "public use," the court pointed to the Preamble's reference to "promot(ing) the general Welfare" as evidence that "the health of the people was in the minds of our forefathers."(19) "The concerted effort for renewal and expansion of hospital and medical care centers as a part of our nation's system of hospitals, is as a public service and use within the highest meaning of such terms. Surely this is in accord with an objective of the United States Constitution: ‘* * * promote the general Welfare.’"(20)

values, or value community.

that cannot be guaranteed without the promise of healthcare. Shit like that makes me so fucking mad.

... assholes that think health care is a luxury get cancer and have to sell everything they own and spend every dime their kids might inherit for treatment.

What goes around comes around, and lots of people are building up some really nasty karma.

Is there more to this?

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

"People have forgotten that healthcare is not a right as ob has said in the debates, it is a luxury."
????????????????


Maybe you shouldn't smoke so much of that funny stuff...
:eyes:

What the hell happened to you, Doug?

:eyes:

it's NOT true that health care is a "privilege" - it is a basic human right.

a privilege. That is the nature and the reality of the goddamn complaint!!!!!!


Jeezus...we're not talking about classical definition here, we're discussing reality!!



:eyes:

One of us has the stupid tonight. Maybe both of us...arrrghhh

YOU are merely spouting right wing talking points and REFUSE to accept your right wing-nut premise.

Get off our board already.

Just someone sensible who realizes the health care does not appear out of thin air, it is a product of work.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

You don't think the United States is as good as other countries.

Sounds un-American to me.

Said with the most earnest of faces.

You're welcome.

Hopefully, the time when the poor don't have a right to health care will come to an end.

Then ask him why health care is a luxury but police protection is a right. Why is protection of your physical health from criminals a right but protection from disease is a luxury.

Ask him if a woman who works part time at walmart and makes $10,000 a year and pays barely any taxes is kidnapped, should the police spend $500,000 pursuing her kidnapper, rescuing her, arresting, trying and convicting her attacker and sentencing him to 30 years in prison? Or should they allow her kidnapper to take her and do what he wants because she earns too little money to be worth saving?

Then ask him if a woman who works part time at walmart and makes $10,000 a year develops a severe kidney infection and needs $500,000 of medical treatment in order to be healthy enough to survive and return to work should get it. Or should they allow her to die because she earns too little money to be worth saving?

Either he will

a) say police protection is a luxury, which makes him to radical to take seriously

b) say one is a right and the other a luxury, making him a hypocrite

clean air, clean water, safe food, law and order, and so on. It all depends on your person cutoff as to where tax dollars should be spent. Technically, the person is correct. Morally - well, that's something else.

Then it's a luxury we can choose to afford everybody. Keep in mind that nearly everybody (unless you have an astonishingly quick heart attack, a very mess car accident, or an unfortunate boating mishap) will need serious health care at some point in their lives. Since you don't know when, or where, or how much you'll need, it's in everybody's interest to have it.


Ask your friend this:

"Has everybody in your extended family had health coverage in the last 5 years? Parents, kids, cousings, aunts/uncles, nieces/nephews? You don't know, do you?

"You don't know because people like YOU don't want even your own family to have that kind of security! This is how you show love to your own family?

"Why don't you want to live in a world where the answer is an immediate and unconditional 'Yes, all of them!'"

...but it's a damn good idea, and has been demonstrated to be workable.

It's one of those infrastructure investments that let you call yourself an "advanced" country.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=6321930

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=6316475

Maybe the best thing for you is to avoid those boards entirely?

Most Americans can no longer afford it.

our water, because it's not really a commodity-- it's needed for life. It's not like selling a candy bar. You need it if you're going to live. It's part of the commons.

What would you like to see happen?

:P

:spray:

Both save lives. And that's the point.

when someone brings it up.

If it is not a right, how about if I'm too poor to afford the luxury of healthcare for my family, if one of us becomes critically ill, we take 'em out back and shoot 'em in the head like an old dog that we can't afford the vet bill for?

It's awful damn peculiar to me that we can whip out the public checkbook and write a hot check for a trillion dollars for an un-needed war in Iraq without blinking an eye but when it comes to taking care of sick people here in our own country we have damn near a civil war about what the right thing to do is.

disgusting :(