Racism between white men and black women

I'm a white female and although I don't think I'm racist, I didn't really understand racism until I saw it through the eyes of a black woman who was my friend. Let me share two examples.

1. My friend had trained as a pastry chef at a professional school in New York city and ran a catering business out of her home. She catered all kinds of events, but the pastries were her specialty, and she had many recipes that were her own. Her business did well, but she was always looking for more. One day we were talking about the pastries in the coffee shop and she said hers were better! I suggested she talk to the manager, and eventually she brought something in. A national manager heard about it and was sent a sample, and after a few months there was a face to face meeting between the white male national manager and my friend at one of their restaurants.

During the meeting he talked about hiring her as a pastry consultant. He flattered her for having made something of herself. He said of course she'd have to write down all of her recipes for the chain if she wanted the job. There was a long moment that passed between them when neither said a word. He had just told her to give to him for free all of the recipes she'd spent years developing on her own. She said thank you for meeting with me, shook his hand, and walked out. She felt totally patronized. In her mind there was no doubt it was racism.

2. She applied for a job as a pastry chef at several fancy restaurants. The application usually consisted of not only a paper resume, but several samples, which are expensive to make. She was sure the restaurants even sold the samples and made money off them! On several occasions after tasting her pastries she was called in for an interview. She said there was always that huge look of disappointment when they saw her - the "Oh, you're black" look. Sometimes they like to bring the pastry chef out from the kitchen with the pastry cart... they didn't want to bring a black woman out from the kitchen. And why not, I wondered. Was it less impressive to white men on their dates? She tried for several of these jobs but was never hired. They wanted her pastries, but they didn't want her. If I hadn't seen it myself I wouldn't have believed it.

And if you're outside of it you can attribute other reasons, but when you are on the receiving end, you see it for what it is.

When I first meet them - not just based on race. You never know who you're dealing with, and treating the sloppy looking guy wearing sweats nicely may pay off big later on.

Of course, once I get to know them, find out who they are, and discover they're assholes, then I know who to avoid. :)

RackJite (something like Bartcop except not as... Bartcop'ish) has an interesting story here:

http://rackjite.com/true_stories.htm

Under, "Racism, What Does it Get You?" that is apropos to my way of thinking.

TlalocW

I'm not sure if number one is racism at all, sounds like a typical slimy business move. It's actually a common thing for a company to try to steal your work and pass it off as their own.

The second may be we all have seen "that look" but how do you prove it?

She was a very talented black woman. Her attempts to network within the black community in met with success- she was treated like the professional and never had experiences like these. She catered the deserts for a reception for 1000 people out of her 2 bedroom apartment.

Everyone who knew her believed she could do something bigger than this but she needed connections. And things like applying for jobs as a pastry chef would always start out with a great response and then end in disappointment. Expensive restaurants in big cities are selling a certain image that she didn't fit.

The white male who asked her to write down recipes grossly underestimated her intelligence and professionalism- it could be arrogance, it could be sexism, it could be a combination of racism and sexism, who knows? But its hard for a black woman with a few experiences like these to keep being told to "forgive" white men who don't seem to think racism exists- especially if they are able to disguise it as something else.

I have no doubt that's a case of sexism and racism mixed with arrogance. It's insulting to think she would turn over her work for him with nothing more than the "possibility" of a job. So she just said "thank you" and walked out? Heh I wonder how he reacted to that.

with a white woman or white male, or suppose she had brought a white male attorney with her. I have no doubt the guy was just trying to see if she was foolish enough to fall for his flattery and hand over the goods. She was wary. But she was so disappointed, and all of her friends were disappointed.

I think it was a real lesson in racism for a lot us.

would be to say sure, I'll write up a non-disclosure agreement you can sign and we'll review my work. That would depend on two factors I would think, first, if she felt it was worth it or if the guy was a lost cause. Second, even with a non-disclosure agreement unless you have a fancy lawyer good luck suing if they break the agreement (and people do that all the time).

Seen it quite a few times. Talk to them on the phone, they think I'm white. They finally see me, and it's the "Oh, she's black" look.

and there was nothing in her name or her voice or her address that was a "giveaway". And I'm sure there are still plenty of people who deny it... but I've seen it through a friends eyes, and I believe it.
I guess its called "applying for a job while black".

I get that all the time!

It's incredible.

:eyes:

white men would make comments like 'we prefer you West Indian women' with the arrogant assumption that I'd share their view. I told off more than a few of them back in the days.

:hi:

She was doing a job where she answered immigration questions over the phone and helped people process claims and fill out forms. Someone told her what a relief it was that they got her, becuase they had "called earlier and got some black person that I could barely understand".

The whole time, shes just sitting there laughing her ass off, thinking, guess what, you're talking to one now!

Black dental hygienists can't get jobs, I've read. The feeling is that white people don't want black people's hands in their mouths.

On the other hand... I'm a middle-aged white guy, not particularly handsome, but very tall and in much better physical shape than 99% of 46 year old white guys. And even though I'm married I'll often engage in a little minor flirting with women when I'm out in public by myself. Not that I'm looking to pursue anything outside my marriage, because I'm not. It's just because, well, you know. Flirting makes life worth living. Anyway, my point: if I look at a woman, smiling a little, to see if she maintains eye contact and smiles back at me, African-American women almost invariably lock eyes and smile back. White women... maybe 25% of the time. I find this data fascinating, black women appear to love me...

Although my male ego wants me to believe it's because I'm hot -- which I'm really not -- my best guess is that this is just a 'good manners' thing, possibly going back to Southern culture. (I live in the rust belt.)

Comments?

I'm probably not a flirt, middle aged, average looking, white mother.

Black men flirt with me all the time. It is so damned charming I can't tell you. It is a finely honed skill. It is flattering without being overtly sexual, makes me feel like they think I'm the most interesting person in the room.

And when I had red hair? Black and white men flirted with me. As a blond? Nope, not so much.

I want to say in general that black people are warm and perhaps that is why your smile is returned, but I know this is an over-generalization. But as a black woman speaking for herself, if anyone smiles at me, I will most likely smile back out of kindness regardless of gender or skin color.

However, your story makes me think white men may historically interpreted such overtures from black women as an opening for something more, especially since you mention your flirtatiousness. Basically, I can interpret your post as saying black women are more open to your flirtatiousness than white women, which brings up a whole host of issues. However, I think on the black woman's part, it is more about 'good manners' as you mention in your post than anything else. These types of situation do say something about the power relationships built in society, with black women always being the lowest on the totem pole just below black men.

I find your post interesting. It makes me think about the Duke case, which I know is way off topic, but since it is all over the media of late, it makes me wonder. From my dealings with white men with my clothes on, I am quite sure having them half off in a provocative situation would be quite a situation. I'm just sayin.

A social scientist really should study this effect to see if my anecdotal experiences hold up over large numbers of people -- this is something that's definitely testable, and quantifiable.

And, yes, it would definitely affect a whole host of issues. If I really was on the prowl -- and it's not in my personality to prowl BTW -- but if I was, it would be hard not to interpret this simple politeness as something more than it is, potentially leading to unhappiness all around.

This brings up another angle of it though- the "I'm not racist, but my customers are" attitude.

The white male restauranteur or dentist can hire a black man or woman even if its not what his customers/ patients/ patrons expect and let them take ownership of their own racism/discomfort.

If somebody doesn't like having a black dental hygenist, they can take their dirty teeth elsewhere.

1. A black person

2. with a sharp instrument

3. STANDING OVER YOU while you sit still, and

4. He/she has the potential to hurt/harm (sometimes you get a rough hygenist)


Pretty sad, but that's probably it...I'm sure that would make any racist cringe

First, virtually every affair starts with "innocent" flirtation. Just saying.

Second, I had an Asian girlfriend in high school who wouldn't date anyone other than white guys. She got mad at me when I called her racist. Later in life I felt sorry for her beautiful white/asian daughter... who would get makeup tips from her mother so she would look "less asian".

Sometimes I think Randi Rhodes is right; we should all intermingle to the degree that we all look the same so we can put an end to this bullshit.

I don't know if you mean all white men but there are a lot of DUers who generalize about white men. I don't deserve to be lumped into a group like that and it doesn't exist.

it happens so often, across the board, that it is often difficult to remember there are a few white men in the world who aren't racists.

You only think that way because the bad ones stand out more, get more press, etc. Sweeping generalizations like that are no better then if I were to say "it's difficult to remember there are a few young black men that aren't gang bangers and criminals"

Stereo-typing goes both ways.

Racism (and sexism) is abolutely ingrained within the power structure of the white male society. The higher up one goes the worse it gets.

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who never become part of the white male power structure in spite of being just as white and just as male as those who are. There's nothing I like better as a part time janitor than to lord it over the building manager, who's a woman, the city manager, who's hispanic, the assistant city manager, who's female, the head of human resources, who's female, the head of the sanitation department, who's black, or the head of animal control, who's black. I just laugh when I think of how the whole power structure in this world is white and male. We get every job we apply for and businesses never try to take advantage of us.

it is not restricted to males, the higher up one goes the more prevalent it is, and half of the ruling class are women.

I know far more non-racist white men than I know racist. Perhaps that's because I choose not to hang with racists. Still, sweeping generalizations about people are never, ever correct.

do you really think there is a level playing field in this country? Do you really think the fact that 30% if black males in this country have lost their voting rights, and the fact so few of the leadership in the fortune 500, or in the upper most levels of state governments are minorities isn't directly related to ingrained racism in the power structure of this country? How many of the most upper level of the federal government are minorties? How many of the most upper level of the military are minorities?

If it has nothing to do with racism then how to you explain it?

I'd honestly like to know what you think.

Things have gotten better in my city, in my town, in my neighborhood. I don't live in some bubble either. I saw the Watts riots when I was a little girl; I lived six blocks from the DMV that was burned down in the 1992 LA riots. Looters ran down my street. Check out the racial mix at my kids' schools... Jackie Robinson Acadamy... Poly High... Check out the Wrigley neighborhood in Long Beach, CA. I lived less than half a mile from where Snoop Dogg walked on top of the record store on Anaheim. I'm not ignorant. I'm not stupid. I'm not racist. I know the world is not perfect, don't give me that crap! I'm saying it's better. I'm saying there are a lot of white people who are not racist. I'm saying I'm sick and tired of being called a fucking racist because I choose to acknowledge the good that has come to light in recent time and I choose to think in terms of building from that. You can't just spew stupid statistics and expect any good to come from that. Why have 30% of black males in this country lost their voting rights? Is it felony records? Have they been unfairly accused of crimes? I see nearly a black man a month being freed after years of imprisonment on a bad rap, and seeing DNA evidence setting them free. And I'm angry as hell about this! How is it going to help anyone by merely spewing statistics? It's time to dig deeper... find an issue and hammer away at it.


Why are there so few Fortune 500 companies with black leadership? It's been my experience in corporate America, and actually working for a Fortune 500 company, that there are very few highly educated blacks from which to choose executives. Don't blame the company for looking out for it's best interest! Blame the college system, the the high schools system for not turning out enough kids (of any color at the moment) who are truly college worthy! Blame the scholarship system. Blame the elementary school system. I do know that there are black executives, college graduates, etc. That tells me that it is possible. We should be examining how these precious few made it happen and expand on that success.

Light a candle instead of cursing the darkness!!

Has the highest incarceration rate in the world, I get virtually no responses at all.

I'm about as white as it's possible to get and yet I find this a pressing issue, possibly even the most pressing issue of our time.

But nobody wants to talk about it.

It's time to take the individual issues and hammer away at them until we make it better. If we cannot disect and analyze the situation, we cannot change it.

Interesting, because you just insulted many people I know.

I could give you many examples of times where people I know did the right thing. Let's see:

A new black male had only been with the company for 2 weeks. One day he doesn't show up to work. We finally receive a call at 3:30 in the afternoon that he was in jail because he was black. The next day when he came into work, we apologized for the racist cops and told him he didn't have to worry about a thing. He wasn't going to lose a days pay and he wasn't going to be punished for not calling in earlier. His reaction was one of immense relief and thanked us.

So, does that make us racist? I don't think so. I have many similar tales like this.

As someone else said, I think it depends upon whether you like to hang out with racist people or not. I choose not to.

On edit: According to your statement does that makes Bill Clinton and John Kerry and many other powerful white Democrats racist? I think not.

I have hired two black women twice, at two different companies... I had one black woman recommend me for the position I hold right now, and I've hired a Latina and a Philipina... and I'm still called a racist here, even if I'm just asking a question.

You see, I am not a black woman, so many have told me I simply cannot empathize with them. That makes me a sociopath, right? I get in trouble here all the time because I want to treat people equally. Silly me. I thought that was what JFK and MLK were telling me to do when I was a little girl. And I swear that's what they were talking about when I read what they had said when I became an adult looking for edification. I guess it depends on what the definition of equal is?

I'm definitely not calling you racist. I just think its amusing that you keep track of these things. You don't have anybody to impress.....

Out of the 20 or so receptionists and administrative assistants I've hired over the past 18 years and three companies, I can think of maybe 6 white people I've hired. I generally have them do writing tests, spelling tests, computer, word processing, etc. Then I take the best scores, interview for speech, presentation and manners. Ask them how they would handle several hypothetical problematic situations, and then make a decision. That's how I was taught to treat this process by an EVP of HR at a major financial institution and I've always stuck with it.


I've had people of all color, sex, age and religion follow me from job to job. But here at DU, I'm called a racist... told I'm "blind, deaf and dumb" because I don't see racism much in my daily life anymore, even though I live and work in one of the biggest cities in the world.

throughout the globe oppresses the darker people, and is perpetuated largely by white men. on the other hand, three of my favorite children are white men . i make it a point to not subscribe. we all be one race: human.

Well said. Stereotypes are born all the time... there are no tender, loving, live and let live type white males in the world. None. Well, that's what some would have you believe. If you say anything even slightly negative about all black men, you are a racist. So what does that make someone who says negative things about all white men? Apparently most of DU will say you are a racist for even asking the question. Ooops... said too much again.

So don't worry about your attitude of white men.

..... I'm a middle aged white guy, so claim absolutely NO expertise here, except for these first hand observations. I'm a naturally friendly, upbeat, happy guy, particularly when I interact with people one on one. The following happens almost all the time I interact with a black woman whom I've never met. The encounter almost always starts with a ..... mmmmm ..... I'll call it a "professional standoffishness". It might be bank teller or store clerk, or, frankly, even the woman who is now my doctor. I try to be sensitive to this and just simply be friendly and respectful. Almost always, that wins out and I've made a new friend. People who we would never expect to remember us remember me, even months after the first (and only) encounter.

My wife postulates its because I'm a clown. Maybe so.

My point here is that I see what you're saying because I seem to encounter it (on the mirror side) a great deal. No rudeness. Just a sort of defensiveness clearly built up over years of subtle, but no less real, racism.

Just as you have assumed that this is a build up of confronting racism, that this is a result of someone's racism against white men? Can't that defensiveness go both ways? I mean, a person could be defensive because of their experience with racism levied against them, or perhaps its their own racism as a result of the same experience, or having come from a family where they heard racist things?

I just find it difficult to read all these assumptions about what other people are thinking or feeling without anything other than an assumption.

If it were more isolated, then yeah ..... any guessing at the reason would be speculation and black-against-white racism would seem a reasonable conclusion. But my experience is far too common for that to be the case. As I said, these people have become friends - or at least friendly - and in the aftermath I have never even sniffed racism on their part.

So, while it is possible and while my conclusion could be all wet, I just don't think I'm that wrong ... if wrong at all.

You could very well be helping to turn a mind around... ya clown;)

We should all make it a practice to push that envelope with confronted with that defensiveness.

I remember seeing that same defensive posturing while in London. The moment a shopkeep heard the American accent, they bristled and braced as if to hold fast against the coming tirade! I became soft-spoken, lowered my gaze to look sheepishly through my lashes like a shy little girl, said a lot of I'm sorries, pleases and thank yous... by the end of the conversation, I was being thanked and asked to come again while in town.

Maybe we should just all practice being nice to all people. Maybe it's a general lack of grace and etiquette that leaves want for getting along.

Edited for typos galore! :p

The real racists see shit like this, cry "reverse racism", and it only re-enforces their sick views.

only an acknowledgement that there is not, nor will there be any time soon, a level playing field. I am not saying all white men are racists. I am simply acknowledging that the power structure in America is predominantly white males and that power structure has seen fit to deny 30% of black men their voting rights, and has found a way to, with only a fewest of exceptions, keep minorities out of the uppermost reaches of most of corporate America, high levels of government, law enforcement etc. This is a reality. If you don't think it is because of racism then I'd like to know why you think this fact exists.

A genuine discussion about why minorities and women are so seldom able to reach the top levels of the power brokers in this country is welcome.

"Unfortunately

it happens so often, across the board, that it is often difficult to remember there are a few white men in the world who aren't racists. "

Comments like this are why I am angry. Yes there is racism out there. You just showed some. How would you react if I said "Unfortunately it happens so often, across the board, that it is often difficult to remember there are a few black men in the world who aren't criminals." I think everyone on this board wants to see a day when there is an even playing field for all races and genders. To label a good portion of the board and/or our friends and family as something they are not based on skin color IS racist. There are many people on this board who use stereotypes that would never be allowed towards nationalities other then white. I'm raising two young white males. They are good kids. I hope they will be able to go to college. I have raised them to judge others by their character and not their appearance. Some people on this thread will never see them as anything but closet racists in denial.

Judgements like that are WRONG.... no matter who is saying it.

You cannot overcome hatred and bigotry with more hatred and bigotry. Can't you see that?

Very well said.

You can't raise the standards of one group by pushing another group down. It didn't work for the white man and it sure as hell won't work for the black man either.

If you want people to be treated equally, you have to be willing to treat everyone equally your own self. If you don't want people saying almost all blacks are such and such, you can't be saying the same bullshit about whites.

People are becoming what they profess to hate and I'm finding it quite disgusting. Take the damn log out of your eye before you tell me about the sliver in mine!

That is a very, very broad brush indeed!

You can't blame corporate America for the lack of highly educated blacks from which to hire. You need to peel the onion at get at the root causes instead of spewing your hate and erroneous bullshit.

I hate to tell you this, but your own bigotry is showing. Seems you are becoming what you profess to hate.

I'd like to know.

I know from personal experience that there are more than a "few" white males who are not racist. Generalizations make you look foolish, friend.

And honestly, I'd really like to know how stating the power elite in this country are mostly white males, and that those while males have clearly, successfully, with only a few exceptions, kept minorities out of their ranks is a generalization.

Nowhere in any of my posts have I claimed ALL WHITE MEN are racists. Clearly there are some that aren't. But racism is so ingrained in the power structure of this country, and faced every day by so many minorities, that it is often difficult for the people affected by it to remember it's not EVERYONE.

I really would like to know how I am off the mark here. In all honesty I really would.

First of all, you didn't start out by stating that the power elite are mostly whites, you said: it is often difficult to remember there are a few white men in the world who aren't racists.

Look, i'm not going to argue with you.. there is obviously racism in our world. However, the fact that the elite class suffers from such ignorance is not representative of all white men. You made an absurd generalization, no doubt about it. Now you are rewording your stance, and rightfully so. My point is simply that there are MORE than a "few" white men who aren't racists. If it offers you any hope, i'd especially like to point out that in my age group (i'm a college kid, on long island) I see more people defend equality than I do spewing bigotry.

that from the receiving end of constant day to day racism, mostly from white men, can make it difficult for the people on the receiving end to remember that not every white man is like that?


I was originally responding to this, which was in turn directed at the OP.

Sapere aude (1000+ posts) Thu Apr-12-07 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
8. Maybe you should have said, this particular black women and a couple of white men."
I don't know if you mean all white men but there are a lot of DUers who generalize about white men. I don't deserve to be lumped into a group like that and it doesn't exist.

In my over 50 years I've lived in 4 states in different parts of the country, about an equal number of years. Without exception, my community has had a general distrust of white men. My husband is white, I am black. The dear man has weathered a lot of crap, generally, from the black community and so have I. Mainly because of the general way white men are viewed as racists - and by marrying one I have betrayed my own race. So in this, I can understand why the person described in the OP would find it difficult to trust white men in general. I will say that here in metro Atlanta people have been much more open and accepting in more recent years.

And for the record. My intent was never to reword or backoff my statement, but to clarify why I made the statement I did. I stand by it. I appreciate that fact that you disagree with me because your life experience has been different. Thank goodness. Let us hope the college kids in 30 years won't have to "defend equality" anymore. :)


Edit to add that I see this as a conversation not an argument. :)

I simply was disagreeing with the terminology you used to get your point across. :hi:
If you truly feel that way, then that sentiment represents a disturbing mentality in our society..

Just try. It's about the racism and sexism black women face. Couldn't you please just let someone else's issues be addressed?

He just doesn't know his place. :shrug:

and it ain't Black women. Yes it is about me. And I'm sure you don't believe it but I have been discriminated against also but I'm not going to make a big old generalization post about it.

Take it off and get on with your business.

And I'm okay with that.

If you ain't a racist misogynist, then you have nothing to fear.

my niece married a Black man and they have a beautiful bi-racial girl named Madison. My dad could not accept that. He was a factory worker and the only way these guys could feel good about their class situation was to place themselves higher than someone else. My dad was a poor white racist misogynist man. I never wanted to be like him and there are more like me than there are like my dad.

Unfortunately, it's the white racist misogynists that make the most noise in our culture, and thereby get most of the attention.

I just hope that someday everyone (I mean everyone) who is not racist, misogynist, ageist, religionist will raise up their voices to drown out those who are.

published in the best academic journals.

Both were summarized in WaPo:

Talking the Walk;
Richard Morin. The Washington Post. Washington, D.C.: Aug 28, 2005. pg. B.05

To test the extent of discrimination, Princeton University sociologist Devah Pager and her colleague Lincoln Quillian of Northwestern University conducted a hiring "audit" and followup telephone survey at 199 randomly selected businesses in the greater Milwaukee area. They first sent out pairs of black and white testers to apply for entry-level and unskilled jobs advertised in the local newspaper. Half of the faux job seekers told employers that they had criminal records and half said they did not.

Pager and Quillian then surveyed these same employers about their willingness to hire ex-offenders. They also read descriptions of a potential applicant to employers, and then asked how likely the employers were to hire the person they described. They were careful to match the characteristics of the hypothetical job seeker with the characteristics of the applicants in the earlier audit, even down to the specific crimes the applicants said they had committed.

"Employers who indicated a greater likelihood of hiring ex- offenders in the survey were no more likely to hire an ex-offender in practice," they wrote in the latest issue of the American Sociological Review. "Furthermore, although the survey results indicated no difference in the likelihood of hiring black versus white ex-offenders, audit results show large differences by race."

snip

***

Hire That Name;
Richard Morin. The Washington Post. Washington, D.C.: Aug 3, 2003. pg. B.05

Two Chicago women respond by letter to the same newspaper ad for a job as a sales clerk. They have exactly the same qualifications and write similar letters. One is named Emily. The other is named Lakisa.

Two Boston men see an ad in the local paper for a sales manager's job. They have identical qualifications and send similar application letters. One is named Brad. The other is named Leroy.

Guess who was more likely to get a favorable reply from a potential employer? Sadly, you probably guessed it: Emily and Brad were 50 percent more likely to get a callback than Lakisa and Leroy - - a huge disparity that surprised even the two economists who conducted this test of labor market discrimination.

Marianne Bertrand of the University of Chicago School of Business and Sendhil Mullainathan of MIT sent 5,000 fake resumes in response to 1,300 help-wanted ads that ran in newspapers in Boston and Chicago.

snip

How many times was the person making the decision a woman. Secondly, I have 12 people in my family history database named Leroy Loomis, and they are all white, and only 4 with some variation of Brad (Bradley, Bradford, Bradner) 5 Leroy Upsons and no Brads. It seems to me that a white person is as likely to be named Leroy as they are Brad. The 1930 census shows me plenty of black people named Brad. When did one name become white and the other black? Perhaps Brad is a power name and Leroy is a redneck name. 1930 census shows alot of black girls named Emily too, and Lakisa seems like a cool name to this white guy.

factually, you are not correct about the name statistics. The authors very carefully pre-tested the names. And, by the way, not too many job-seekers in 2000 or later were around for the 1930 census. You will also find your other questions answered. You can find the studies in your public or university library; the WaPo summaries provided the names of the authors and the journals. That's how I found them.

Further, this is a systemic problem. Whether any one individual behaves in a bigoted way is not the issue and if you are a white male, you have enjoyed many privileges of being in that group whether you make hiring decisions or not. For example, you may have gotten an offer over a better qualified person because of it. These studies demonstrate that racism is frequently a factor in hiring, and that it disadvantages minorities, even though in one particular instance, it may not be. That's why researchers use sampling and statistics. Don't fall victim to the "flat earth" problem: "Gee, I looked out in my back yard this morning and it was flat, so therefore the earth is flat."

it's counter-examples. First, I have not gotten most of the jobs I applied for. Second, in three cases I got passed over in favor of candidates who were less qualified and they were two women, one hispanic, and two blacks. But the two blacks looked more qualified on paper, but they both ended up stealing from their employer and doing inferior work.
1930 census, by the way, is a source I am familiar with, and the most current census available to me directly.

Can you tell me how steep the odds were? Were 80% of all Brads white and 80% of all Leroys black, or was it 90% or 70%? Did they run the test pitting Emily against Brad, and Leroy against Lakisa? How about comparing two black names, say Leroy and Trevor? Or two white names Brad and Larry? Or what about two neutral names - Jim and Tom? I would like to see a larger control group to see if name preference is larger than race preference.

The bottom line is that it is not fair to blame whites and make them all racists when many are just passive beneficiaries (or less) of the system, not in a position to control it.

you'd be surprised at who is a racist. My mom's friend is the sweetest lady in the entire world but she spews some really hateful stuff about Muslims. She's a Bengali Hindu so maybe some of it is from the genocide in Bangladesh during the war.

I highly doubt anyone deserves to be lumped in with anyone else for any reason. You are unique, just like everyone else. ;-)

my college friend invited me to her home for a barbeque. Her first big party...(we felt like such grownups since we were both working..were newly married and were in our first homes)...

She is black, her husband is white.

My husband and I along with some of her husband's family were already there...

So her husband's boss arrives...and she and I are standing in the living room talking about a poster she had framed and hung on the wall....

Her husband is escorting the boss into the living room...and the guy automatically comes up to me..and says.."so nice to finally meet you Mrs. X"...when she corrected him and said..."oh no...I am Mrs. X"...her husband's boss's face fell...the man and his wife did not stay long after they ate ...and I had the weird feeling that he did not approve of their marriage.

This same friend had been passed over multiple times for jobs and I am quite sure that it was due to race because she is a very smart hardworking individual.

At one point she languished in the same position for four years...hoping that all her hard work would pay off but she kept being passed up by white people she trained instead of being promoted herself...and you know what she never wanted to think it was because of her race...she blamed it on other stuff..it was heartwrenching.

And it's sometimes difficult to separate an individual's racism from institutional racism which that individual may be unknowingly perpetuating.

so I can't comment on what your friend experienced. However, the thing about "give us your work for free," I've experienced that myself. It's not racism, it's corporate dickishness. They'll dick you whether you're black or white. They're equal opportunity assholes.

No way to know for sure about the stories in the OP but I dis think when reading it that it just might be an asshole being an asshole. I work in IT and people always try and get something for nothing. Whether it's tech support endlessly for free for acquaintances or bosses feeling free to ask for a website to be developed for their personal interests people are always trying to get something for nothing. I am a white female so maybe I am experiencing sexism but maybe this is just the way many people do business. Greed makes people suck.

But with her training , experience, and documented yummy skills I can't see why the woman described in the OP can't get any job. And to see "that look" repeatedly after meeting face to face? Pretty suspicious. That really sucks.

That's great I am writing that one down lmao!

offensive things come from other guys (and women) regarding black women. I've had a few black girlfriends and they were just treated differently than other women by the people we met out in public. If I noticed it in those brief windows of time, I've no doubt they had stacks of such experiences saved up.

One thing people seemed to assume was that black women are somehow more aggressive or less feminine. I have no idea where that shit comes from, but I'm not going to sit here and tell you your friend is exaggerating, because I saw it with my own eyes.

Still, I certainly wish your friend luck and I hope she sticks with it. There are alot of people who *aren't* racist assholes.

Not because she was black.

She went through a divorce, lost her health insurance... being self employed she had none. Had some symptoms, ignored them for a while. By the time she went in and was diagnosed she had stage 4 ovarian cancer. She died 2 months later, age 42. Very sad.

She was my first, my only close black friend. I learned so much from her. I saw the world through her eyes. She wasn't one to see everything as racism or sexism. But when the same thing happens over and over, everyone sees it. And the thing about racism is, a lot of the things that really get to you aren't the in your face things like name calling but the things that you aren't sure about- did I not get this job because I'm not good enough or because I'm black?

she was still with us. So it made finding this out suprisingly hard to hear.

And I hear you about your point of the doubting.

Sounds like she was something special.

You would be suprised (well, from what you've said, probably not) how often that gets asked.

And people do regard them differently. Plus, its hilarious to watch people who you know are racist to suddenly change.

Used to hear racist jokes all the time being told by other family members. They don't tell them around me any more. I've heard from others that these kind of things are usually preceeded by a glance over the shoulder.

When I was in college I was the victim of an attempted assault but I was rescued. I went to court and helped put the person in prison for 2 other assaults- 5 to 15 for each. My attacker, all victims, all attorneys, the whole jury, everybody involved, was white.

Over the years, when I've mentioned to someone that I was the victim of an attempted assault, the first question some people ask is "Was he black?". Until I worked with a Rape Victim Advocacy group I honestly had no idea why people asked me this; I had no idea that there was a stereotype of black men as oversexed and raping white women. It freaked me out. Statistically, 99% of sexual assault is within one's own race. But the idea is out there.

So, the answer is "No, he was a redneck white guy".

to someone who is open to the numbers/statistics. The base of information is well established. But some people do not change their minds even when they hear the numbers.

I used to know a guy from high school & college who was pretty WASPy and his idea of dating an "exotic" woman is somebody that is or Italian or Greek descent. So, he'd be the type that would ask a question like that.

I even had another guy compare to me Captain Kirk (who slept with just about every woman that came along, alien or human, green skin or white) because I dated women of so many different ethnic backgrounds. (Like, a woman from India or Africa is an alien, I guess?)

But, ever since I started dating, I've tended to place a higher priority on a woman's personality and intelligence than on her ethnicity.

So, I've also gotten questions like yours, "what's it like with a black girl?" But, that could also have been "Asian" or "Hispanic" (or "latina" or "Puerto Rican") etc, etc. and, what I've found is that it differs from woman to woman, regardless of ethnicity.

I've definitely noticed, however, more people turning their heads when I've been out with black women. (Except when I was in China with my Chinese wife where it seemed more rare when heads didn't turn!) And, I've only noticed comments twice when I've been out on dates - once with a black woman (from - separately, a group of whites, and later some black men) and once with a Filipino woman (from some white women)

But, my dating days are gone now that I'm married. I still, however do tend to notice inter-racial couples and it definitely is more common and more accepted now than it was 10-15-20 years ago when I was on the dating scene.

Interestingly - my family never really warmed up to my white now ex-wife, even though she was also Catholic and I have some pretty devout Catholics on my mom's side. However, they have all really liked my non-religious Chinese wife from the start.

And had their IDs carefully scrutinized when using a check or credit card. I rarely ever get asked for an ID. I don't think I've ever been followed in a store. I've never not gotten a cab.

unaware about it (I am white) and it is sickening. These women are attractive, smart professionals. In contrast, I often go into stores, in my sloppy sweats, after playing tennis for two hours and while no one is really interested in trying to sell me anything as I clearly am not a fashion forward frequent shopper, the security personnel do not follow me around.

and stop in front of me. I refused to get in, saying "that man was hailing you". But they would rather keep going. Its illegal, and it happens all the time.

I once got into a cab on the north side of Chicago - had an Arab driver - told him I wanted to go to the south side. He said he would pray to Allah about it. He prayed to Allah, and Allah helped him find a black cab driver to take me to the south side of Chicago!

Or I don't care to see such things, because when my friends and I go out, we never experience that crap. Color me lucky?

I lived in LA at the time of the riots, too. (The Rodney King ones). After that people seemed to go out of their way to go out to restaurants, etc., with their friends of other races.

If I go to a non-Chinese restaurant with my (Chinese) wife and some white friends, I have noticed we get clearly better service than if we go to a non-Chinese restaurant and I'm the only white person in the group of Chinese.

The same would happen if there was one black person in our group of whites, compared to if I was the only white person out with several black people. The majority white group would get better service. And, yes there were a few times I would go out with a group of black guys when I was in college - some of the jocks that came from out of state didn't have the ability to go home every weekend, so I'd end up hanging out with them.

Yeah, that helps solidify your credibility.

:popcorn:

Some of the usual suspects have already shown up on this thread to inform us of the brutal oppression that the poor widdle white menz are facing every day. :eyes:

I know my heart bleeds for their thin ivory skin...haha...not.
Racists are like roaches. You think you're some place they couldn't possibly be but there they are.
Lee

and how it is ironic that both stories are side-by-side in the national news right now, but it was a no-go here. Sad.

I feel like there are some issues of racism that tie both cases together that deserve discussion. Oh well.

I just posted on this thread and the issues the OP raised and the Duke case and Imus all kind of run through my mind.

I'm just sayin, the OP makes me think that some white men may interpret the frequent smiles they get from black women as opposed to white women as an opening for thinking black women are more willing to give them something more. And if this is interpreted from just as much as a smile, what about in a situation where the black women are in a provocative situation as the strippers put themselves in in the Duke case. And then how Imus just blurted out that racially inappropriate shit that I don't feel like repeating to a bunch of beautiful, college educated black women who reached the zenith of their college athletic careers and I'm thinking, can black folks get a break?

Mightly tolerant of you.

Lighten up! It's just joking 'kay? Run along now, we're talking about REAL issues here.

At the event, people of all races and colors come together to eat dinner and discuss racism. Time after time, I have heard people of color tell personal stories about their individual experiences with racism, such as being followed around at stores by security, being overlooked in restaurants, and so on. I confess that when I was younger I believed that racism was not so much of a problem and that we lived in a more equitable society, but the reality of these individual's experiences and the power that was in their telling of these stories has convinced me.

My best friend is in the field I just left a few years back. As a black woman, she has to be that much better than everyone else. I have seen her ideas stolen and represented as someone else's, though not always a racial thing, until someone says, "there is no way she could have come up with that idea!", despite the fact she graduated at the top of her class and is very intelligent. When money came up missing, guess who was called in first? However, this type of behavior is common against many minorities, and if you fall into one of those, seeing how others from a group to which do not belong is treated makes it much easier to understand their plight. It is also interesting to watch people fall all over themselves trying to act as if they understand, instead of simply asking.

Cultural sensitivity is lacking in many people. It may not be intentional racism, but ignorance shouldn't be an excuse.

I have a theory that racism is variable depending on both the geographic location and the local racial situation, and the particular industry. Those places that have had a long history of segregated racial relations and stagnant economies have generally the worst relations.

(full disclosure: I am a white man married to a black women, who works as a high-level professional.)

I know of a black woman sales representative that got the look when she showed up on sales calls in Central California, as she "didn't sound black on the phone". She thought it made her job just about impossible.

On the other hand, my wife works on a level where she is almost always the only person of color, and often the only woman. Her current job entails managing a group of white men about a decade older than she is. Some problems, but not many. She is just very good.

She had good business connections within the black community in Chicago. The interactions with these white employers were isolated incidents with very high end restaurants- I guess they'd be looking for a little white gay man named Pierre to be their pastry chef. The coffee shop chain was S*ar*ucks, and I've always had a bad taste in my mouth about them since this happened.

She never let these experiences make her the least bit bitter.

She died of ovarian cancer at age 42 in 2001. :cry:

Many of the older industrial cities do. I'm from Detroit, after all.

I am sorry to hear about the loss of your friend.

But living in Wisconsin, I meet lots of whites who are scared to death of black people. I grew up in the Chicago suburbs when the real estate industry kept blacks away. The neighborhood where I lived in Chicago for 19 years (Hyde Park) had the highest rate of interracial marriage in the country, so I probably had a skewed perspective.

Asking for ownership of her recipes is pretty much standard. That said, she needn't have given them anything she didn't want to, but surely anything she developed while in their employ would be theirs.

Some companies allow the developer of recipes, ideas, gadgets, processes, whatever, to hold half the rights. Some do not. That company does not.

A good friend of mine (a white woman) developed the recipe and production processes for one of the products they sell already bottled. She did most of the development on it before she went to work for them. To her personal detriment, she **assumed** she had the rights to her intellectual property. She learned in court she didn't. This wasn't racsism or even sexism. It was just 'business'.

When I worked in research labs I had to sign something that said anything which was patented or developed as a result of my work and its resulting profits belonged to the company. Understood. I signed it and walked in the door on their dime, and they paid my salary and provided everything except my labor.

But in this case, she had developed the recipes on her own time, and they were going to make a lot of money making the pastries and selling them over and over again. She should have gone to some other baker and tried to sell it to them instead; alternatively, she might have tried to start her own bakery and mass produce her pastries and sell them at grocery stores.

Giving away the recipes and taking a low paying title as their pastry consultant really wouldn't do much for her career.

...is to watch the way your black/native/Latino/Asian friends are treated in stores, restaurants, etc. etc. ad nauseum.

What? Don't have many friends of color? (Hmmm...now there's an issue...at least if you live in my neck of the woods. It's pretty diverse out here in Sacramento, so if you don't have any friends who are of another race than you--there might be a reason.)

ANYWAY...I have seen, over and over, how my African American friends and colleagues are treated differently in the same situations in which I'm treated acceptably. They've been followed through stores, given crappy service at restaurants, been denied housing and jobs for the most implausible reasons you can imagine...and those things don't tend to happen to me. (Although I have, on several occasions, had really crappy restaurant service when I'm the only white person in a group...I suspect my white skin privilege has been temporarily rescinded by virtue of the company I keep.)

I've also had the experience--because the nick-name I use for business is non-gender specific--of constantly having business contacts express "surprise" that I'm a woman (usually after a long and productive email relationship). Sometimes it's funny--they can't even hide their disappointment: "Oh, I thought you were a man!"

I can only imaging what women of color endure in terms of the "double whammy."

Go for a ride with a black friend, especially if he's a man, and just drive through your local Mc Mansion neighborhood. If you're white, you should recline the seat or leave the tinted window up, see how many seconds it takes to get pulled over. Of course, you should pay the ticket as your tuition.

which is a totally different thing.

There is a real lack of racial diversity here, and a palpable racism. Even the people who are politically liberal are less comfortable with racial diversity than everyone I knew when I lived back in Chicago. To really break down barriers people need to live in the same neighborhoods, work in the same workplaces, and inter-marry... if that isn't happening the barriers stay up.

asset this woman would be to anyone. I scream at stuff like this. May the best man/woman have the job. I am sick of this cancer on our world.

The city, and the public schools, are very integrated places. My kids readily make friends with white, black, Hmong kids. It's the only school district in the state that narrowed the gap in math achievement test scores between black and white kids last year. House prices aren't declining the way they would have in the bad old 'white flight' days. It's nice...

I know what you mean about the general trend among most white adults in the region, though. It can be depressing...

I campaigned for Bryan Kennedy last year, drove all over the place, and went to some of Sensenbrenner's town hall meetings. The one in Hartland was really scary. Rich white people telling Sensenbrenner how wonderful he was on the immigration issue- and complaining about high school being taught in Spanish over in Waukesha. Didn't have any real problems in Hartland to complain about.

A friend of mine in Madison has her child in a school where there are mostly Hmong kids- she really likes it too.

When I first moved to New England, my antennae were up for racism against me. I grew up in a conservative town where I got slammed a lot because of my race. So I get to Maine and go into this sandwich shop. The girl behind the counter ignores me for the longest time, even though I'm standing RIGHT THERE at the cash register. Finally she gets around to waiting on me, and she's downright nasty. I mean, just out and out rude. I pick up my sandwich, thinking: "This is racism, no doubt about it." Then I heard her wait on the next person in line, a white guy. And hell, if she isn't just as nasty and rude to him!

Moral of the story: sometimes it's not racism. Sometimes it's just a rude person.

Good post.

But living in the South, I would never approach a strange guy that I found attractive who was White unless they came and spoke to me first. I wouldn't know how they would react. They could be interested and we could strike up a great conversation. But there is always the possibility that they had racist beliefs and would say something very hurtful. I hate that, but I can never tell.

I know of a black woman in Alabama that met her white husband that way. She claims they have no problems as an interracial couple in the South, though as a northernor I have trouble believing it.

...a friend of mine met her husband through a dating site specifically for interracial couples. Can't help who you're attracted to, you know? :hi: Good advice, kwassa!

I'm a white female and she soaked me for a bunch of free time, supplies and I could go on and on...she used me, threw me out like an old shoe and then took credit for most of my ideas and hard work (this was also supposedly a *friend* which made the whole thing even more galling)

It wasn't a race thing...it was a she was an asshole thing.

I found out later that she had pulled the same crap on another one of her *good friends* before she brought me into her web and her other good friend was black (she got used as well needless to say)

I have found that it's the exception, not the rule, to be treated fairly by employers of all colors--they all want something for free if they think they can get away with it!

But thats just my thing. I've worked for black and white, male and female. I've found race doesn't matter, but I'd rather work for a man. Of course, stay in the workforce long enough and there are exceptions to every rule.

Just remember: No employer or potential employer or former employer ever tells you the REAL reason for anything.

Since I am one lol

I have had really great bosses and really hideous ones--I believe some people are nice and some really mean.

might be the time.

you will be very hard pressed to be able to actually prove racism or sexism or just about any other bias used to discriminate when hiring. Its just a tough case to prove, because employers are basically free to hire or refuse anyone for any reason (whether or not that is consistant with the spirit of the law doesn't matter, any reason can be shown). Although a employers real reason for refusing may be "I don't hire homosexuals", "I don't hire women", "I don't hire blacks", whatever, they can always use case-by-case defenses to find other excuses such as "She didn't interview well" or "He didn't meet the qualities we were looking for", even something like "we interviewed and refused many candidates who were just as qualified".

Sadly, when many talented people apply for a position, only a few can be chosen. And in most cases, it will come down to some personal identifier the interviewer has with the applicant. It can go any direction, whites who prefer to hire whites, blacks who prefer to hire blacks, hispanics who prefer to hire hispanics, men who prefer to hire men, women who prefer to hire women, whatever the case. There is always going to be some underlying prejudice. Sometimes it goes beyond race, to instances of hiring people from the interviewer's hometown, High School, University, or fraternity. Again, the real bitch of this is that there is no concrete way to prove it.

Closest thing I have ever seen was done in both emplyment and even housing, when applicants of different races and class were given nearly identical qualifications and sent out to apply for the same job or apartment or whatever.

This sort of thing is the reason Affirmative Action was proposed, but unfortuantely there are still loopholes. Until we as a society can overcome these and get around these roadblocks, until people stop seeing artificial barriers such as this, then things unfortunately aren't going to change much.

The trick, though, is figuring out how to bring about these changes.

People know what the rules are. They know what questions they can and can't ask. I'm going through job interviews right now, and its funny how people will try to get you to volunteer information about things they can't ask you about.

When people lose their jobs they often suspect its because of certain reasons- but the real reasons are never spoken. If the real reason is age, or your health habits are costing us too much, or you are married to a muslim and we don't like it, no one is ever going to say those things. Inevitably you will hear that "your skill set was no longer needed". Its needed one day and suddenly not needed the next. And the people who deliver the message, the idiots in Human Resources, actually believe this crap.

But just because it can't be proven, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Sometimes there will be mistakes, and people will think they see discrimination where it truly doesn't exist. But I think those of us who care about justice have to keep exposing it and standing up for the people who are being discriminated against, knowing we are all in this together.

Both are so anecdotal in nature and there is NOTHING substantial or legitimate in either to qualify them as acts of racism. Number 1 is actually amazingly silly in premise and number 2 is kinda grey but a simple 'look' left up to personal perception is not nearly enough to judge racism. Sorry.

:)

is the most oppressed category we have here at DU... :rofl:

...I'm still w/in my editing time. Why waste my time, energy and remarks.
:hi: undeterred.

I just thought better of writing what I previously wrote. I understand that you have a right to say whatever you'd like, even if I interpret it as dismissive, mean or lacking in empathy.

As far as racism is concerned, as stated previously I saw zero reason to acknowledge such premise. But if you want to now change the subject to empathy instead; of course I feel bad for the woman involved. It sounds like she's quite talented and has some great recipes, and I sincerely wish her well and hope she finds job where she can show off her tasty treats.

Until I see the paperwork that states you were born in minority skin, or an admission that you are gay, bi, transgendered, a woman, all of the above, or something else that would show that you know what it feels like...I choose not to accept such definitions from you.

This is part of why I chose to change my earlier response. Again, you are free to say whatever you like and dismiss the opinions of those that experience such things daily, based on living in minority skin. But, you'll have to excuse me as I choose not to give any credence to your opinion about it.

But I expect you'll continue posting in every single thread about minority issues on DU, sharing your uninformed opinion on what does or does not dictate a "racist, homophobic or sexist" experience. It is your prerogative, and it is certainly your pattern. Forgive me for recognizing that and bowing out early.

:)

To put forth a premise that one does not have the ability to judge or perceive racism if they are white is one of the most bigoted and ignorant premises I can imagine. You don't have to be a minority to deduce that in example 1 there was no existence of factors that would give any credibility to an assertion of racism. It was something that could happen on any given day to any given person regardless of skin color. It also doesn't take a minority to be able to deduce that a charge of racism, which is a pretty heavy charge in and of itself, should rely upon more than just simply a person's perception of what a certain 'look' meant. No, ya don't need to be a minority to say such things accurately. It's quite simply obvious logic.

The INARGUABLE fact is that there is almost ZERO circumstance lending credence to the charge in the first example and EXTREMELY flimsy circumstance lending credence to the charge in the second. That really isn't up for debate in my opinion, since that is what it is and I'd find it to be a pretty hard bar for you to reach to show that a look alone is enough to determine racism. But even with a complete lack of or existence of extremely flimsy evidence one can still choose to have the opinion of racism, as you do. That is your right. But don't come at me with this absolute weak and bigoted argument that my opinion and deduction of the situation bears no weight simply because I'm white. That's absurd and illogical on its face and you should be able to better than using such tactics.

I also find your charges absurd of posting in every minority blah blah blah thread. Obviously that's an extreme exaggeration. But I absolutely will comment with my opinion, as is my right and inherent attribute of this website, when I feel the need to offer rebuttal. These are not uninformed opinions whatsoever regardless of your assertion. They are for the most part carefully thought out and logically deduced opinions that are generally spot on in their premise. The only thing I will add in closing is that it is an amazingly flawed and narrow minded sentiment to put forth that only one who is gay can recognize homophobia, only a woman can recognize sexism, or only a minority can recognize racism. That's just quite simply false on its face.

Oh, yeah, don't want to forget the smilie. :)

Do you even bother to read other's posts, or do you just reach for your patented responses to them, "...that's a seriously weak argument", "You're in violation of civility rules", etc, etc. Either way, predictable and expected. (sigh)

Just so you know, I'm not arguing with you. I'm not seeking a debate here. I made an assertion. There's a difference. I'm making a choice. I choose not to allow some guy lacking in minority status to tell me (or anyone else) what constitutes racism, sexism homophobia or any other -ism. Perhaps you should re-read my post so you know that.

Or is it completely foreign to you to have YOUR opinions dismissed? :rofl:

You're almost funny, you're the only guy on this board that without fail finds a way to argue with the unarguable. I'm sure you'll write yet another monologue defending that which I didn't attack. Whatever blows your hair back, dude. lol. Have fun with it.

You can play semantics all night if you want but you put forth a premise that my opinion has no bearing because I'm not a minority.

As far as having my opinions dismissed, so what? We all post here repeatedly and of course don't expect our opinions to be agreed upon by all. Who would think such hogwash?

As far as arguing the inarguable, that's your opinion. I found every reply I've made to be legitimately stated towards a premise that was undoubtedly arguable and in some cases blatantly flawed. So you can reduce your argument, assertions, premises, words, sentences, letters with punctuation, or whatever it is you want to call your replies, to nothing more than simple personal mockery but that doesn't do much to rebut any of the points I've made. Yeah, points I've made. Remember them? Cause you haven't really debated any of my points or given any refutation to them. You haven't responded to context but instead have only stooped to personal criticism. Well if that was all that you set out to do to begin with; making this personal instead of debating intellectually, then yay for you. But unless you can give strong reason as to why my points are wrong, flawed, illogical or otherwise, then your criticisms are without merit since my points still stand.

I made a simple and logical statement that the examples shown in the OP do not come close to containing enough evidence to reach a bar of racism when presented with those details alone. I do have a right to such opinion and would love to see you offer intellectual reasoning, as opposed to a weak reply of simply 'cause you're white', as to why that statement above is wrong or flawed. If you can't ya can't. But trying would be a bit more respectful then stooping to personal criticism just for sake of doing so.

So if you choose to reply with some mature and well intentioned reasons for your disagreement with my statement, I'm open to hearing them. But if you're just going to continue this no-need-to-exist personal battle with no attention to premise or context, then I say goodnight to you now. :hi:

"hogwash."

:rofl:

...DUDE! You're SO there! I shouldn't say it's just those though--I get the sense You're ALWAYS here. But...

Whatever the issue is if it relates to anyone that ISN'T YOU, you're there. :rofl:

Any and every thread where someone is saying something isn't fair based on race, sexuality, gender, sexual orientation (or anything else)there YOU are to tell EVERYONE how their arguments are ridiculous, weak, silly, unfounded. Dude it's your schtick.

On and on you go where you stop, no one knows!

:rofl:
It's like you have a radar and some alarm goes off when a minority thread is posted.....BEEP....BEEEEP...Angry person of color....BEEP....BEEP....angry gay person...BEEP...woman pissed off about rape...BEEP!

Then of course, you show up cape flapping behind you--to inevitably tell them ALL to stop being so damned sensitive.
Good for you, keeping the darkies, gays, women and other oppressed people in their place--You must be so proud!

:rofl:

It's almost cute how predictable you are. ;)

Threads with legitimate premise and intellectual logic are safe. But if I find an assertion put forth on any topic that is rooted in ignorance, falseness, or accusations towards innocents, then I do feel a need sometimes to counter with logic. Sorry that irks you so. The fact remains that you have only been able to offer flawed and meaningless personal criticism instead of actual intellectual rebuttal of my opinion. There is no value in doing so and I find it a shame that is all you were able to put forth. Fact is, my points were sound and legitimate. You didn't like that, so in absence of being able to refute them you could only resort to the simplistic personal criticisms you offered instead. Oh well. :hi:

LOL! You're there to comfort your sense of self. Nothing more or less. You've probably said, thought or done any number of the things that you jump into those threads to defend. Or you've been a silent bystander while someone you know did such things. You are merely comforting yourself by defending such disgusting acts the way you do.

The only person you're fooling with that argument is yourself. Every person on this board you've been dismissive of knows that. Any person on this board that you've told to stop being so sensitive see's through what you are saying in those threads. They've had a lifetime to recognize people like you. The ones that NEED to tell them they are being too sensitive and it's not so bad.

Yes, of course--the poor endangered species that they are, the heterosexual, white, male, needs your voice to defend them against those horrible minorities clamoring for rights when they have SO MUCH already. :eyes: :nopity:

Good one, though. That gave me a great laugh! :rofl:

It's all you've offered thus far so you really haven't said anything. When you're ready to actually address context or refute anything without resorting to simplistic personal attack, let me know.

...your other favorite quote, the "unfounded personal attack." Dude, no one is attacking you. But I know you seem to enjoy playing the victim which is REALLY funny (and ironic) for one that is so freuquently dismissive of the feelings and concerns of others. I guess this is where I should tell you to "not be so sensitive." ;)

Anyone reading this thread will see, I bowed out of this. You invited me to tell you my thoughts. When I did, you tried to turn it into a debate and an argument, attacking and baiting--I chose to not participate. Now you're playing the "poor me, you're attacking me with your unfounded personal attacks" game. I've merely called you on your patterns of behavior and actions, in regard to minorities on this board.

Honestly I would be surprised if you fell to your knees saying,"Yes...yes...It's all true...!" Of course you're going to deny it. But anyone with eyes that can read, that has seen your posts knows the truth.

I've given a logical and of sound reasoning opinion on the OP premise. I've described the reasons for such opinion. You took issue with the fact that gosh, I just wouldn't forsake all that is logical,reasonable and rational and declare instead "you're right! Those racist bastards" based on a complete lack of supporting evidence. So instead of supporting the other side of the argument; that these were true displays of racism; you instead went straight down the path of engaging in ad hominem attack. You say I attacked and baited. Rilly? Where? All I see is you baiting me, yet me responding with logical rebuttal each time. You say I'm playing a poor me card. Again, oh rilly? Cause I'll be damned if these ad hominem attacks do any more than make me laugh out loud while reading them. Here's a piece of reality for ya: Responding to an ad hominem attack with intellect, reasoning and logic does not make one sensitive nor angry nor affected. Did you really think for a second that I'm sitting here hurt by the silly words of some anonymous poster who has yet to provide any sound reasoning or judgment in rebuttal to my opinion? Really? :rofl:

And what behavior have you called me out in relation to my "patterns of behavior and actions, in regard to minorities on this board."? This is where you and others on this board REPEATEDLY cross the line with other posters; by implying they're racists, homophobes, sexists or god knows what else merely because they don't default to whatever premise was floated. I have never ONCE here held any inappropriate argument or opinion that would put me even remotely in the camp of being a racist, homophobe, sexist or otherwise. In fact, I have huge personal convictions of integrity, fairness, honesty and tolerance towards all. I'm 100% without flaw against racism, bigotry, sexism and homophobia. So I therefore can only conclude from your statement above that my patterns are merely patterns of calling out silly indefensible premise, as always. Well I'm proud of that pattern since it needs to be done. Flawed premises should always be challenged, lest we all end up ignorant.

So you've had your fun attacking me for the night and trying to smear my character into something that ain't so, merely because I chose to require more evidence that racism occurred than simply a guy asking for recipes and someone else giving someone a look they didn't like. Yeah, that makes me so horrible. What a pattern. :rofl:

So enough of this 'let's attack OMC because he speaks strongly and wisely cause we need to ruin his character' banter. I'm tired and this has been a pointless exercise with you. But please, don't think for a second my calling you out on your lack of rebuttal or anything of merit means I'm sensitive or affected by the nonsense. It simply means I'm gonna say it like it is, like always. :hi:

...repeating the same thing you already said, but labeling it "logical" somehow gives it more weight.

Anybody that identifies with being a minority reading your posts see's how completely clueless you are regarding such issues. I'm not the only one. I've seen you do this more times than I can count. You NEED to argue, debate and diminish.

It has nothing to do with logic. Hatred isn't logical. Bigotry isn't reasonable.

>>Both are so anecdotal in nature and there is NOTHING substantial or legitimate in either to qualify them as acts of racism. Number 1 is actually amazingly silly in premise and number 2 is kinda grey but a simple 'look' left up to personal perception is not nearly enough to judge racism. Sorry.<<

If I were to say "Abortion is murder" and leave it at that, people would demand why I would have that opinion; people would want some reasons.

The only legitimate reason you gave was that both were anecdotal in nature. My contention is that their anecdotal nature is irrelevant because the OPs friend, being a black person, would have life experiences of racism and discrimination, and therefore has credibility on the subject when making a judgment call. This is also what bliss_eternal was getting at.

You then went on to say that there is nothing "substantial or legitimate in either to qualify them as acts of racism", but you failed to explain why. Simply stating that number 1 is silly in premise does not make it so. Give some reason why you think number 1 is silly in premise. As for number 2, I and bliss_eternal have already addressed why the OP's friend has credibility in her personal perception of racism.

Now you must rebut.

"If I were to say "Abortion is murder" and leave it at that, people would demand why I would have that opinion; people would want some reasons."

I gave reasons. Pretty weak analogy too.

"The only legitimate reason you gave was that both were anecdotal in nature."

You're wrong. Reason for number 1: There was nothing racial detailed in the anecdote whatsoever. Therefore, there was nothing else for me to be able to rebut than simply saying so. I also stated that the circumstance presented could happen on any day to any person regardless of race or otherwise, and may in fact have even been perfectly legitimate. Do you know for certain she wouldn't have gotten the job? Reason for number 2: A look alone is nowhere near the level necessary to legitimately achieve an accusation of racism. Because the only avenue for determining such is personal perception, regardless of experience, there aren't nearly enough indicators to accuse such. Do you disagree? Why?

"My contention is that their anecdotal nature is irrelevant because the OPs friend, being a black person, would have life experiences of racism and discrimination, and therefore has credibility on the subject when making a judgment call."

Disagree completely. Her life experiences could also contaminate her thinking and cloud her judgment in ways that she now immediately defaults to accusations of racism any time she gets a look from anybody. In fact, such clouded perception would probably be more likely from her experiences then an enhanced ability at predicting racism. So it's really a double edged sword in that way. Someone gave her a look. Based on that alone you truly think that ANYONE, regardless of past experience, can use that and that alone to determine one was acting racially? You don't think such an accusation would be extremely dangerous in premise and narrow in reasoning? So be it. But I would. To accuse someone as being racist, which is a heavy charge, one should be able to present a bit more than simply "well, they looked at me weird". That applies no matter how much a minority one is.

"This is also what bliss_eternal was getting at."

Bliss eternal did nothing more than engage in personal criticism based on a narrow premise that someone who is white cannot possibly deduce or understand racism. Sorry, but such a premise is amazingly flawed.

"You then went on to say that there is nothing "substantial or legitimate in either to qualify them as acts of racism", but you failed to explain why."

How do you explain nothing? Nothing is nothing. I've explained it above. Asking to see the recipes prior to landing the job does not constitute racism. I don't care how much you would want to say it does, but it doesn't. Therefore, there is NOTHING else in the anecdote to consider as giving credence to the concept. There is nothing further to explain. The same applies to number 2. Though a bit more grey, getting a 'look' from someone also does not constitute racism. There needs to be additional insight to make that judgment call. In the absence of such additional details, an accusation of racism based on that alone is quite simply foolish and narrow. It just is. Since there's nothing else to discuss from the second anecdote, there is nothing further to be explained for that one either.

"Simply stating that number 1 is silly in premise does not make it so. Give some reason why you think number 1 is silly in premise. As for number 2, I and bliss_eternal have already addressed why the OP's friend has credibility in her personal perception of racism."

I've repeated issued reasons. Furthermore, being a minority does not make one an authority on determining racism. In fact, as stated previously, it can make one far less objective in determine such circumstance. Someone who truly is objective and uses experience as a component, would not be foolish enough to declare racism based solely on a look. I don't care how much a minority one is or how much they've been exposed previously; a look can NEVER be enough to base a charge of racism on.

"Now you must rebut."

Gladly. But all this still boils down to two simple things: 1. A guy asking for the recipes does not equal him being a racist. I don't care how much one tries to say so. It just doesn't and never could. That doesn't mean he isn't or couldn't be racist, but there's no way to accurately determine that based on that alone. 2. Someone giving someone a look also does not equal them being a racist. That also doesn't mean they aren't or couldn't be, but once again there is no way to determine such based on that alone. Now if you want to think otherwise that's fine. But I'm pretty sure I have logic, objectivity, rationality and sound reasoning on my side here.

Goodnight.

Quote:
Bliss eternal did nothing more than engage in personal criticism based on a narrow premise that someone who is white cannot possibly deduce or understand racism. Sorry, but such a premise is amazingly flawed.


...re-read my posts. I never said,"...someone who is white cannot possibly deduce or understand racism." You inferred that. Kindly don't misquote me. That wasn't stated by me at all. In fact, I didn't bring up the heterosexual, white male until you spoke did.

I did state that it is my opinion that "YOU" don't understand racism. I went on to say without racial, sexual, gender identity credentials of your own, your arguments don't fly with me. I refuse to allow someone that posts the way that you do, to define for me what racism, sexism, homophobia or (what any other form of discrimination is) or what it looks like.

That is what I said, and I stand by it. :)

"Until I see the paperwork that states you were born in minority skin, or an admission that you are gay, bi, transgendered, a woman, all of the above, or something else that would show that you know what it feels like...I choose not to accept such definitions from you."

Now if you don't find it reasonable and logical to translate that into "unless you're not white, are glbt or female, you do not have what it takes to accurately deduce or understand those things", then I just don't know what to tell ya.

Those are your words and that is what they mean. You can try and change that meaning now that you've been called on it and probably now realize how absurd the premise in fact was, but the words are still there and their intention obvious. You said in part that only if I were born in minority skin would you then give my opinion any merit. Your words. Your premise. Deny all you want but the statement was blatant.

This has wasted enough of my time tonight. Goodnight and god bless.

because that is what you NEED to believe this is about. You can't consider the possibility that you are clueless on issues of discrimination and that you don't know everything. That's ok. You're entitled to your personal beliefs and perception.

But again, my issue isn't white males.
There are some white men that totally get discrimination and how horrible it is. Such men would never dare to write the kinds of things you do in response to people expressing pain over incidences of discrimination. They get it and don't need to BE a minority to get it. You are dismissive and defensive in threads about minority issues because you don't get it. It is my humble opinion that you need a lifetime in minority skin to get it, because at present, you don't. Because you so clearly DON'T get it, I won't give credence to your opinions about discrimination.

I see your responses as callous and dismissive of the feelings of minorities. I also see you arguing over semantics because you can't face the truth and would rather play word games than do so. That is your choice. You do it quite frequently, so apparently you aren't capable of doing anything else.

OPERATIONMINDCRIME
"The same applies to number 2. Though a bit more grey, getting a 'look' from someone also does not constitute racism. There needs to be additional insight to make that judgment call. In the absence of such additional details, an accusation of racism based on that alone is quite simply foolish and narrow. It just is. Since there's nothing else to discuss from the second anecdote, there is nothing further to be explained for that one either."

Let's look at this situation.

You make the assertion that there was no racism because no racism was proven. That in itself is utterly false; there may well be racism that can't be proven. That does not mean that there was no racism, simply that, to you, it is unproven. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, however.

First, you completely discount the life experience of this woman, and her long interaction with whites from the position of being in the minority.

If she walks into a room full of people, and they all instantly react in a negative fashion without even talking to her, it is probably true that they can ONLY be reacting to something external about her, as there is no other information for them to come to a judgment. What is that information likely to be? That she is a woman? They know that already. That she might be gay? They would have no way knowing that, at this time. What else could they be reacting against?

But I'm not a brain surgeon, so I guess I could be mistaken. My car is running like crap, but since I'm not a mechanic, I can't tell you for certain that there is anything wrong with it. There's water all over the kitchen floor, but I'm not a plumber, so what I think is a broken pipe might be something completely different. I'm just a dumb white bitch, so I can't possibly know what those tears in that little black girls eyes mean.

OMC, I've had a few disagreements with you in my time. But I believe ideas and people should be judged on individual circumstances.

You are spot on here and I appreciate your well thought out and well stated opinions.

...um, hope it's ok...I pm'd you.

Why is number 1 silly in premise and why is number 2 grey?

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OPERATIONMINDCRIME:
"Both are so anecdotal in nature and there is NOTHING substantial or legitimate in either to qualify them as acts of racism. Number 1 is actually amazingly silly in premise and number 2 is kinda grey but a simple 'look' left up to personal perception is not nearly enough to judge racism. Sorry."

1) Being anecdotal in nature is irrelevant. Most stories of racism are anecdotal, as they happen on a personal level between two people.

2) I think the second anecdote quite substantial; one can tell a great deal about how one is judged by how people look at you. Black people experience quite often; as a white person, you will never experience it and know nothing about it, and are therefore in no position to judge it. Your assessment is therefore of little value.

3) The first anecdote is the grey one, and could be based on race, or shady business practices.

I don't believe that you have no ability to judge racism, but you have a LIMITED ability based on your inherent inability to ever be in a black person's position. It is a life experience you can never have.

Maybe I'd have to know where it was, but I can't imagine that kind of thing being the case here. The customers can be black, too, and brown and everything in between, so how could something like that be happening - is this some remote part of the South, or more likely, in Idaho or Utah?

The first sounds much more like sexism and I have been on the receiving end of such things, or the like, but I see it as an annoyance to overcome, otherwise, what else can be do about it? As time goes on and more and more women get wise to the business world, the opportunist's opportunities to take advantage of the inexperienced will be limited to youngsters just starting out.

My black roommate in college described some of this kind of stuff. It sure would be annoying, I would grant you that. But then there are times you can't be sure it isn't something else. If someone is a jerk to you, they can be having a bad day, and it helps your self esteem to put it in those terms, or considering other possibilities, rather than jumpting at racism or sexism right away as the first and only possibility, and letting that slide you into depression.

...how on earth would you know for sure? Seriously? I mean no disrespect, but posts like yours seem so dismissive to those that live with that reality every day.

For someone like you, it's a theory--something you can think about and shoot down as a possible falsehood. For someone that wears their minority status on their skin they are privy to knowledge and feelings you aren't because they have to deal with that every day--they can't take off their skin. A gay person can't change being gay. I'll never understand why so many here can't allow for the possibility they don't get it, because they haven't experienced it and never will.

Btw, kitchens as workplaces are VERY sexist AND racist. I've read and spoke with women pastry chefs that have shared similar stories. :eyes: I was a server for many years. The things you hear men say in kitchens should never be heard or repeated. Completely disgusting. If a man challenges what they say, they call him the f word--so they are also homophobic in many cases. :(

Men are used to being the top of the kitchen hierarchy as chefs, etc. Kitchens are hotbeds for racist, sexist slurs--but they think they are jokes. :eyes: For them, giving women pastry chef jobs are just another way to entertain themselves. To see "hot women" in compromising positions while they prepare pastries. Really sick, disturbing stuff. I can personally attest to it.

they will always leave you doubting yourself. Yes, maybe you didn't measure up in some way. Maybe there was some other reason. If you are isolated from the experiences of others and think you are the only one, then you might see the things that happen in terms of your own weakness instead of the society around you.

But, believe me, discrimination still happens- and there are plenty of people who can tell you better than I. The other side of it is seeing white males promoted who aren't qualified at all and everyone can see it, but you have to smile and pretend the emperor has a fine suit of clothes if you want to keep your job. I've actually HEARD a human resources manager say to someone "be sure to interview a few minorities and women for this one". The "good old boys" club exists in most organizations and its not going to concede power easily.

Sounds like you and your friend are reading a lot of nothing into a common business situation.

the concept of what constitutes "dismissiveness" IS completely foreign to you. That's really interesting.

i.e. someone trying to steal someones elses work. I suspect that guy would steal from anyone regardless of color. Thieves are generally equal opportunity stealers.

#2 is almost certainly racism.

great minds think alike! :evilgrin:

I can never remember the exact definition of irony.

First a chain wanted to get a recipe from your friend for free. That's a rotten business practice but where is the racism. You're assuming a hell of a lot. And she wasn't hired for work, maybe because of her skin color. All of a sudden white men are racist. "All blacks are criminals because I was mugged twice by black guys". Racist when talking about black people and same goes for you.