THE US INCARCERATES BY FAR THE LARGEST PROPORTION OF IT'S POPULATION OF ANY COUNTRY IN HISTORY

See how it works?

:puke:

There was a time when I affirmatively believed that women were the greatest of survivors of slavery.

Now, I think human beings are only as enslaved as ANY MASTER DICTATES.

Presently, I ask, "WHO are the 'masters' of any one's (my) suffering?"

It's a tough question everyone must negotiate for her/himself.

They might break in and steal our cheetohs!!!

:cry:

being put in place to ensure they remain full...all about profit and being able to ensure that certain people they don't like will be able to dissapear and all of it so called legal.

:eyes:

I know it's sad but true. I'm almost ready to give up on this sick ass country I've called home most of my life.

I began feeling that way when the great impostor was forced down our throats by the Scotus some 8 years ago. I thought I'd feel a little better when Obama stole the show, no pun intended, but I ain't feeling it just yet....

I mean I love the guy and his family, but some of us are still waiting for change.

I wish he'd just start kicking ass and taking names, fuck bi-partisanship.

are insanely jealous of your "freedom".

Also the great kick you get out of having capital punishment. Who can ever forget the count down on MSM the day you executed Timothy McVeigh? I guess the nation got "closure". Or something. The rest of the civilized world felt sick. Go figure.

what an astounding fact.

:shrug:

Mexico is more progressive than us as they've legalized possession of small amount of drugs.

And let's not forget this classic example involving kids! It's a national embarrassment!!
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/02/23/pennsylvania.corrupt.judges/index.html

Ciavarella, 58, along with Conahan, 56, corruptly and fraudulently "created the potential for an increased number of juvenile offenders to be sent to juvenile detention facilities," federal court documents alleged. Children would be placed in private detention centers, under contract with the court, to increase the head count. In exchange, the two judges would receive kickbacks.

The Juvenile Law Center said it plans to file a class-action lawsuit this week representing what they say are victims of corruption. Juvenile Law Center attorneys cite a few examples of harsh penalties Judge Ciavarella meted out for relatively petty offenses:

Ciavarvella sent 15-year-old Hillary Transue to a wilderness camp for mocking an assistant principal on a MySpace page.

He whisked 13-year-old Shane Bly, who was accused of trespassing in a vacant building, from his parents and confined him in a boot camp for two weekends.

He sentenced Kurt Kruger, 17, to detention and five months of boot camp for helping a friend steal DVDs from Wal-Mart.

Release non-violent drug offenders, then release low-risk property crime offenders. Eventually only leave real criminals in prisons (murderers, rapists, career,serial,dangerous offenders.)

What about the people who will lose their jobs over prison depopulation? Re-train and place them in new jobs.

They have thousands upon thousands of laws at their disposal that you don't even know exist. If the police show up, they will be able to arrest you for your pants, what's in your pocket, anything you say, being in the "wrong" place, sitting in the wrong place, standing in the wrong place, looking at somebody the wrong way.

It's been the game plan for a long time. Get you into the system and control you for the rest of your life.

They may not even be aware of the fact (or it's just denial) that they've created a police state, but they have.

Amazing and pitiful and disgusting at the very least.

and given that Stalin killed 20 million of his own folks (and one assumes some form of "sentence/imprisonment" was passed beforehand) that would probably be the world historical leader in prisoners.

Left out of the equation are the vast numbers of those who are held in America's far-flung detention centers. And then there are those who are imprisoned by US proxies. We could go on.

I've never seen a number higher than 710/100,000 attributed to Stalin. That number has been questioned but let's take it as it is. Awful yes but still not able to match. Nor was the Soviet propaganda system able to come close to the American managed media.



Interesting to see this thread get the unreccer's gander. Even simple statistics seem to unsettle some Homelanders I suppose.

You haven't been looking very hard. That 700K was in just two years, 1937-38 and many estimates put it 2-3 times higher, add another 100K in Mongolia, 250K in Poland, and hundreds of thousands of others spread out over the entire Soviet Block, oh why am I bothering. You think Soviet propaganda is nothing compared to the American media. A ridiculous claim. I'd suspect that a quick taste of Soviet Russia would have had you changing your tune.

From Wiki (which no doubt you find a propaganda site):

Historians working after the Soviet Union's dissolution have estimated victim totals ranging from approximately 4 million to nearly 10 million, not including those who died in famines.<77> Russian writer Vadim Erlikman, for example, makes the following estimates: executions, 1.5 million; gulags, 5 million; deportations, 1.7 million out of 7.5 million deported; and POWs and German civilians, 1 million – a total of about 9 million victims of repression.<78>

Some have also included deaths of 6 to 8 million people in the 1932–1933 famine as victims of Stalin's repression. This categorization is controversial however, as historians differ as to whether the famine was a deliberate part of the campaign of repression against kulaks and others,<53> or simply an unintended consequence of the struggle over forced collectivization.<48><79><80>

Accordingly, if famine victims are included, a minimum of around 10 million deaths — 6 million minimum from famine and 4 million minimum from other causes — are attributable to the regime,<81> with a number of recent historians suggesting a likely total of around 20 million, citing much higher victim totals from executions, gulags, deportations and other causes.<82> Adding 6–8 million famine victims to Erlikman's estimates above, for example, would yield a total of between 15 and 17 million victims. Researcher Robert Conquest, meanwhile, has revised his original estimate of up to 30 million victims down to 20 million.<83> Others maintain that their earlier higher victim total estimates are correct.<84><85>

You missed what I posted. The figure I posted was 710 per 100,000.

But again if you have more than speculation on this matter please cite specifics.

And BTW the Soviet apparatchiks were in awe of the US media as they knew the average Russian citizen was aware of the propagtanda whereas the manufactured consent that come from the propagandists at the NY Times, WaPo and other organs of the state is understood by most US citizens, especially the elite liberal class, to be an honest accounting of what is and has happened in the world.

In any case if you are trying to defend the US gulag system your argument fails but does bring to mind reactionary sentiments I've encountered from the "love it or leave it" crowd.

only responsible for 710 out of 100,000? 100,000 what? Deaths? Incarcerated? deaths per population?

He killed, directly through his orders, at least 2-3 million people. He killed through his targeted famines another 17 or so million people. He sent hundreds of thousands to Siberia or other political prisons in Poland, Mongolia, and other Bloc Nations. He purged loyal and innocent along with any possible disloyal folks. He was a monster equal if not greater to Hitler, but absolutely ridiculous folks like you want to make us into worse than that.

Like I said, you are deluded and you would last about ten minutes in a true Communist system. You sure as heck couldn't write anti-government messages on an internet chat board. Folks like you give leftists a bad name. Come back to reality if you can. You don't have to "love it," about 100 things wrong with America, just like any other country, but you certainly should embrace reality and not the delusions you appear to have.

Yes lol the NY Times is a propaganda arm of the state. Classic.

Is that some people actually defend Stalin and rest of the merry Red butchers.

"Like I said, you are deluded and you would last about ten minutes in a true Communist system. You sure as heck couldn't write anti-government messages on an internet chat board. Folks like you give leftists a bad name. Come back to reality if you can. You don't have to "love it," about 100 things wrong with America, just like any other country, but you certainly should embrace reality and not the delusions you appear to have."

Yep, we would all be lined up and shot for our words here in the Soviet system. It's crazy how deluded people are about the USSR.

Can you link to a single post or thread in the history of DU that defended Stalin? I never seen anything even close to that.

You are making that up and as to why one can only speculate.

Again please provide the link(s) where someone here on DU has defended or currently defends Stalin.

Thanks in advance.

Talk about the million dead in Iraq or the three miliion dead in Vietnam and they start talking about Stalin.

Talk about nationalizing the banks and they start talking about Stalin.

Talk about health care reform and they start talking about Stalin... or Pol Pot.

Tell 'em that it was the U.S. who supported Pol Pot and the commies who overthrew him, and they start talkin' about Stalin.

Talk about anything a bit out of the ordinary, and there is old Uncle Joe, fresh as ever... as if he hadn't been dead for 50 years.

They don't know shit, but they still talk about Stalin.

I'm startin' to think that the only way not to talk about Stalin is to say, "Let's talk about Stalin..."

"the bolsheviks, and lenin, and stalin all attempted to consolidate power by the liquification of their political enemies."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1994035&mesg_id=1996034

You got something bring it to the table otherwise desist with your conflations and false accusations.

No where in any of those links is anyone defending Stalin. What you just brought up was basically Indiana Green using rational discourse to dispute the numbers of deaths attributed to Stalin that are perpetuated through the very propaganda organs you seem to hold dear. That's an entirely different thing than actually suggesting Stalin was benevolent so perhaps your bias and desire to shift focus away from the reality of the OP is more the point than any discussion about Stalin which by the way is only useful if you are interested in hijacking the thread to avoid what was originally posted.

"You know, Stalin did have a couple of endearing qualities In addition to his opposition to the rabid nationalism that fractured Europe along ethnic and religious lines, he crushed the Religious Right in his country."


"Russians are far worse today than they were under the Soviets. For the first time since the Tsars, there is poverty and unemployment in Russia. Perhaps this is why the May Day celebrations which were reduced to a few hundred elderly marchers during Yeltsin era, now command tens of thousands of people from all ages.

Russians are longing for the safety and security of the Stalin years, just as we long for the days of Bill Clinton. Neither Stalin nor Clinton were perfect, and we had legitimate issues with them, but they are preferable to what we got now."


"Stalin didn't have a Religious Right problem like we do in America that's one very positive thing I can say about Uncle Joe's methodology of dealing with the fundie vermint."

"Of course he did more good than bad. Russians were better off in 1953 than 30 years before."

"Almost all will disagree, but indeed Stalin was better than Bush. Bush is a fascist and waging war against the people in a struggle to gain domination for US capital. Stalin rather successfully defended his country against fascism and led the Red Army in defeating fascism in Europe. His merits outweigh his demerits, in my opinion. But 99.9% of this forum disagrees, I realize."

"He had his good points, such as no Religious Right or fraking Evangelicals Adios Rick Warren, off to gulag with your sorry fat ass!"




Ok, I bring something to the table, you willing to eat it?

In Soviet Russia, everything was liquefied! The intelligentsia, the lower-level bureaucrats, the kulaks... all turned into class struggle smoothies!

If those are what you call a defense of Stalin you are in dire need of some phantasm to digress from the topic at hand.

So what do you think of the current US penal system?

How about the aggressive US foreign policy?

How about US domestic policy that brings such deep poverty which...

Stick to the topic at hand now.

Or that it was rude to call me a liar?

Once we move on from this, we can discuss other topics.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1454960#1455497

"Stalin helped liberate Europe.


He led the Soviet army in liberating Europe. Yes, innocent people were killed when everyone was on the watch for fascists and the Fifth Column, but only one country successfully turned back the German horde--the Soviet Union. Stalin can be criticized, but there is absolutely NO comparison between Stalin and Hitler. Stalin stood on the correct side of history with regard to fighting fascism, and that's why so many Russians still appreciate his leading role of the time."

He can be credited with more deaths than Hitlers Third Reich. Only Mao Ze-Dong and the Chinese revolution of the mid 20th century killed more people.

What a bunch of idiots.

It's like defending Hitler, I don't get it.

I could understand if someone simply wanted to describe the historical nature of Stalin or Hitler.


Both were extremely successful at what they did. Hitler could be considered one of the greatest leaders in human history.

But that doesn't make them nice guys. And I am in no way attempting to glorify them by declaring them good leaders.

Is that straight enough for you?

Unless your reading skills have completely collapsed the OP is pretty basic and factually accurate.

Here it is again and stick to the topic if possible:

"THE UNITED STATES INCARCERATES MORE PEOPLE PER CAPITA THAN ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN HISTORY?"

Agree or disagree?

it helps to keep the numbers down.

prisoners are part of what Marxist economists call "the reserve army of labor".

They are an available surplus that can hold down wages if necessary

Never thought of it that way.

and you get a very interesting number.

I've read that this explains why the US has a consistently lower unemployment rate than EU countries - we lock up our excess labor force and don't count them. EU countries have a lower incarceration rate, so count the same type of people as unemployed.

Fiscal conservatism is doing more to liberate people trapped in America's infernal penal system than any progressives could — nevermind Democrats who are always happy to increase funding for police.

Seems like conservatives are more often the ones who are "tough on crime" and against things like parole reform, "good time" and other alternatives to keeping people in prison.

That's a fucking laugh.

You are either extremely uninformed or extremely stupid. Of course, could be both.

that was spending like mad until your state is broke and then cutting any "service" you can.

I think it's time for bed.

The U.S. needs to keep the prison industry profits healthy, it's an adjunct to the anti-drug industry. Wouldn't want the CEO's and stockholders to suffer, now would we?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

But it really only makes me vacillate between fury and sadness.

Because one graphic from a chemtrails site isn't very convincing.

But citing chemtrail conspiracy sites is lame.

Stay focused here.



Hope the source is okay.

When one googles for a picture you find the darndest things.

Do you have worms?

capitalist while the Western countries we are being compared to are mainly socialist? Even communist China incarcerates less people than America...

Yes, our prisons are for profit...as our food, water, shelter, clothing, education, etc. Given the minimum wage has remained below the living wage need to live with any kind of comfort or stability in this country, is it any wonder more of our citizens would turn to criminal activity to survive, be it theft, abuse of illegal narcotics, crimes of violence and/or aggression?

The topic of the high number of prisons and percentage of inmates should not detract from the fact that prisons are not erected for nothing, nor were the inmates currently residing in prison there for nothing. What should be addressed is why do so many American citizens resort to crime, why do so many become repeat offenders...judging from the white-collar offenses well within the public eye, is there an impression given to American citizens that crime really does pay? Judging from the workings of our highest levels of government, is there an impression given to American citizens that education, honesty, and hard work doesn't really get you far at all, but looking for suckers, the quick-fix and focusing on short-term gains will eventually make your way?

The penal system and its inmates are a concrete, black-and-white reflection of our social and cultural conditions and values...

great post reply.

Watch this short video clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8019D0a4y5k#t=3m05s

drug war

...know I'm freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee la la la lal la

Another related discussion, read the links too...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6375845&mesg_id=6375845

Warning: Concentration of wealth in the hands of a few, a cornerstone of Republicanism, may have unintended consequences.