Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Thoughts on how a "Conscience Clause" will affect the rights of women and others to medical care.

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 12:32 AM
Original message
Thoughts on how a "Conscience Clause" will affect the rights of women and others to medical care.
Actually not just women. There are some who want to pass such conscience bills that will make it possible for doctors and pharmacists to refuse care to gays and to those with HIV.

The Pharmacists for Life group appears to have led the way on this issue, especially on women's reproductive health care. This is a Media Matters discussion on Karen Brauer, the rather arrogant and pious president in 2005. I don't know if she still is in that position.

Pharmacists for Life president fired for refusing to fill birth control prescription and for also lying to the patient.

Though CNN apparently considered Pharmacists for Life a significant enough organization to invite its president to appear on American Morning unopposed, the organization is rather obscure. Pharmacists for Life's most recent IRS filings indicate that the organization has no paid employees and raised and spent less than $30,000 in 2003 (the most recent year for which figures are available), with more than half going for "VIT, GLOVES, SUPPLIES."

Pharmacists for Life president Karen Brauer was fired by a Kmart pharmacy in Ohio for refusing to fill birth control prescriptions. As Brauer acknowledged during an April 16, 2001, appearance on Fox News' The O'Reilly Factor, Brauer didn't merely refuse to fill a patient's prescription, she lied to the patient, as well:

O'REILLY: I got you. Now, when the customer complained, what happened there? Did you refer that customer to somewhere else?

BRAUER: I asked -- I -- she did not complain to me. OK? What happened is, she came in for a refill. I informed her that we did not carry the drug at the time. And I offered to call a copy of her prescription to the pharmacy of her choice.

O'REILLY: And then she complained. But did you -- how -- why would she complain about that, if you didn't have the drug on hand?

BRAUER: Somehow she found out that this pharmacy actually did have the drug at the time.

O'REILLY: So you lied to her.


BRAUER: Yes, I did.


A conscience about giving a woman her prescription, no conscience about lying to that woman?

Most of these events occurred circa 2005, but I don't imagine things are much better now.

An event from Wisconsin:

Pharmacist refused to fill, refer, or give prescription back to patient

When a Wisconsin pharmacist was presented with a prescription for birth control pills, he not only refused to dispense the script or refer it to another pharmacy, he refused to give it back to the patient based on his religious beliefs. He is now facing a disciplinary hearing brought by the state board of pharmacy.


More from other states:

Last February, an Eckerd pharmacist in Denton, Texas, refused to dispense emergency contraception to a woman identified as a rape victim. The pharmacist was fired.

Last spring, a Raleigh man complained to the North Carolina pharmacy board that a pharmacist refused to dispense an emergency contraceptive to his wife and lectured her on religion. The pharmacist was reportedly fired.

In March, a CVS pharmacist in North Richland Hills, Texas, refused to refill a prescription for birth control pills because the drug violates her personal beliefs. CVS declined to comment on whether the pharmacist was fired.

The refusal of the CVS pharmacist to dispense birth control pills was a wake-up call to the Planned Parenthood Federation of America, which had been focusing on protecting abortion rights, not women's access to birth control pills. President Gloria Feldt fired off an angry letter to CVS, demanding that the drugstore chain's CEO personally promise that such a "completely inexcusable" incident would never happen again. Suddenly, Americans are waking up to the fact that women are being confronted at the counter by pharmacists asserting a religious or moral right to refuse to dispense hormonal contraceptives or emergency contraceptives. An estimated 12 million American women use hormonal contraceptives for birth control. But the drugs can also be prescribed for many other indications, including acne, fibroids, endometriosis, and to regulate menstrual periods.


This "Conscience Clause" carries over to other areas which are based on religious views. Laws are being passed based on the beliefs of the religious right.

From RHReality Check, July 2009

State-level Anti-Choice Efforts Target Pharmacies and Provider Conscience Laws

Last week, Louisiana’s legislature passed what is known as a “conscience” bill, allowing medical professionals to refuse certain procedures if they violate religious or other beliefs. Often, conscience bills, like the midnight regulation passed in the final days of the Bush administration (Obama is expected to rescind the rule), specifically target abortion and contraception. Louisiana’s bill includes abortion and some types of emergency contraception, along with stem cell research and euthanasia. Gov. Bobby Jindal, who is anti-choice, is expected to sign the bill. But Louisiana isn’t alone in proposing such a measure; 12 other states have introduced such bills this legislative session, the most active of which were in Louisiana and Arizona.

...Esman, who testified before the state legislature three times on behalf of changing, said that the ACLU called the bill “discriminatory medicine.” The more sinister potential of the original bill could have expanded far beyond reproductive services, Esman said. “If you were anti-gay, you didn’t have to treat gay people. If you were a white supremacist and worked at a doctor’s office you could refuse to make appointments for people who are non-white.” It was by raising concerns of broader threats of the legislation that the ACLU was able to build a diverse coalition to work on the bill.

.....Still, conscience clauses are becoming an increasingly popular mode of anti-choice legislation, and not all states will result in the kind of compromise reached in Louisiana. Arizona’s bill combines a conscience clause, allowing pharmacists to refuse to dispense emergency contraception, with a 24-hour waiting period for abortions. The bill also increases penalties (from one year of prison to two years) for physicians that perform the already-illegal late abortion procedures erroneously and misleadingly termed "partial-birth abortions."


Good for the ACLU for watching out for discriminations in bills like this.

More on the topic from Feministing.

Michigan law “doesn't ban discrimination based on a person's sexual orientation.” The legislation prohibits racial
discrimination.

According to ProudParenting.com, the conscience clause laws that pharmacists have been using to deny women birth control and emergency contraception prescriptions could also be used by doctors to refuse treatment to gay and lesbian patients. Looks like these laws are just chock full of discrimination. Jeez.

The ProudParenting piece specifically discusses Michigan’s law, which Rep. Chris Kolb (D-Ann Arbor) notes “doesn't ban discrimination based on a person's sexual orientation.” The legislation prohibits racial discrimination.


Here is an article from the WP in 2005. I don't think much has changed.

Pharmacists' Rights at Front Of New Debate

An increasing number of clashes are occurring in drugstores across the country. Pharmacists often risk dismissal or other disciplinary action to stand up for their beliefs, while shaken teenage girls and women desperately call their doctors, frequently late at night, after being turned away by sometimes-lecturing men and women in white coats.

"There are pharmacists who will only give birth control pills to a woman if she's married. There are pharmacists who mistakenly believe contraception is a form of abortion and refuse to prescribe it to anyone," said Adam Sonfield of the Alan Guttmacher Institute in New York, which tracks reproductive issues. "There are even cases of pharmacists holding prescriptions hostage, where they won't even transfer it to another pharmacy when time is of the essence."

That is what happened to Kathleen Pulz and her husband, who panicked when the condom they were using broke. Their fear really spiked when the Walgreens pharmacy down the street from their home in Milwaukee refused to fill an emergency prescription for the morning-after pill.

"I couldn't believe it," said Pulz, 44, who with her husband had long ago decided they could not afford a fifth child. "How can they make that decision for us? I was outraged. At the same time, I was sad that we had to do this. But I was scared. I didn't know what we were going to do."


The religious right never lets up on its demands that doctors and pharmacists follow their religious beliefs first and their oaths come second. I believe President Obama did rescind or was going to rescind the extreme conscience clause put in by President Bush as he was leaving the White House. Here is an interview in which Obama promises another robust conscience clause.

President Obama Promises a "Robust Conscience Clause"

President Obama went a little farther today in saying that conscience clause protections on abortion coming from his White House will be strong and 'robust". He made the comments to Catholic reporters while discussing his upcoming meeting with the Pope next week in Italy. The Brody File has transcript. Read his comments below.

Q Many of the people who are providing aid through the church, both domestically and internationally, are very concerned about possible restrictions on churches' moral teachings in their work going away -- through the conscience clause -- I didn't articulate that very well. But they're very concerned about the conscience clauses that protect their ability to refuse to do certain kinds of services going away. And it's been a little unclear what direction this administration is going with some of those restrictions.

Can you talk a little bit about where you see the boundary lines between what -- how much the government can limit what happens according to people's consciences?

THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think that the only reason that my position may appear unclear is because it came in the wake of a last-minute, 11th-hour change in conscience clause provisions that were pushed forward by the previous administration that we chose to reverse. But my underlying position has always been consistent, which is I'm a believer in conscience clauses. I was a supporter of a robust conscience clause in Illinois for Catholic hospitals and health care providers. I discussed this with Cardinal George when he was here in the Oval Office, and I reiterated my support for an effective conscience clause in my speech at Notre Dame.

So I think that there have been some who keep on anticipating the worst from us, and it's not based on anything I've said or done, but is rather just a perception somehow that we have some hard-line agenda that we're seeking to push.


I tend to agree with this poster at Obsidian Wings....it is the state which issues licenses, not the church.

Medical Refusniks

Let me start with an explanation of why I stand where I do on this issue: Doctors and pharmacists in the US are given a license to practice their profession by the state. They do not have the right to practice without a state-issued license (in other words, their church cannot issue them a license). Our constitutionally mandated separation of church and state therefore extends to that license IMO. Few people would hesitate to call it wholly unacceptable discrimination if a doctor or pharmacist's beliefs led them to refuse to treat a person because of their religion or race or gender, no matter how sincerely they felt their religion insisted that treating such people was repugnant.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
1. Against This Absolutely, Ma'am
They do the job or find another trade. Th
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. Thanks, me too.
It's about control.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
2. "Conscience" Clauses: This is yet another means used to try to control women in the US
Edited on Sat Aug-22-09 12:38 AM by Triana
ie: The American Taliban. :grr:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MountainLaurel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #2
24. Not just women
I could totally see one of these pharmacists refusing to fill a prescription for HIV treatment drugs because they consider the disease to be a punishment from God.

I grew up in a church that taught that mental illness really didn't exist and was just a sign of selfishness and lack of faith. A doctor or school nurse might see a depressed or even schizophrenic individual and tell them to go talk to their pastor rather than treating them with drugs or encouraging them to see a counselor.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 12:39 AM
Response to Original message
3. The only time a pharmacist has any business questioning what a doctor has prescribed
is when the pharmacist realizes the drug will interact badly with another prescription the patient is taking. Otherwise, s/he should be fired for practicing medicine without a license.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. Good point about the interaction of drugs.
Once when hubby and I were doing my mom's medicines before she died, the druggist called me about an error on a drug. The drug subscribed by a specialist was the wrong dosage and could have been harmful.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 12:41 AM
Response to Original message
4. DO let us know who wants these SPECIFICALLY. Then we'll chat. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. If I said the sky was blue, would you say it wasn't?
I think my post was very clear.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. You are getting unrec's. I'm the only one to even call you on this.
Edited on Sat Aug-22-09 01:04 AM by babylonsister
But you keep butting it up. As I just did. I disagree.

More info needed before you get people to get angry.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. I have been getting unrecs all day. I posted about Hoyer, got at least 8
I really am not too concerned that you unrecced it, that's not the point.

The point is that the policy was meant to be used on posts that were not sensible.

This one is, even though you disagree as usual.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. You are not alone. I get them, too, and so what?
Edited on Sat Aug-22-09 01:14 AM by babylonsister
The substance of your post is what I was talking about, as usual.

I don't have to agree with you to respect you.

I'm leaving it there.

And no more responses, as this isn't a rec'd to me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Do you think the substance is deserving of being marked down?
Or just having someone disagree.

I don't worry about respect much here anymore. There is none.

I just post what I think.

I think the unrecs are being used in a personal way now, and it hurts the whole forum. Not just me, today they were rampant.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Heh. That works for me, too. I'm fairly opinionated.
Yes, depending on who's reading it, it's personal. Or the content might anger people. Here's one from Nate Silver, that went down...

People love him til they hate him, just like us.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=6363693

Nate Silver: Are Progressives on Tilt?

:fistbump:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. More info? What about the post is not clear? "call me" on what?
Edited on Sat Aug-22-09 01:10 AM by madfloridian
On posting my opinion?

What are you calling me on?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
53. What are you objecting to? You think there are reasons for licensed professionals to refuse to do
their jobs, under certain circumstances? What would those be?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
7. Sometimes I think the unrecs are overboard. No need to rec, but why unrec?
Unless you support a conscience clause. I think many at DU do support it now, just as they support charter schools and merit pay where before many didn't.

I have seen so many unrecs today for not just me, but for many people.

It cuts down on real discussion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Delete.
Edited on Sat Aug-22-09 01:47 AM by madfloridian
,
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TicketyBoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 12:56 AM
Response to Original message
9. If I were in this position…
I'd ask the pharmacist if he/she were willing to pay for the prenatal visits, delivery of the child, any complications arising from the pregnancy and/or birth, and then adopt the baby when I was forced to have a child because of his/her beliefs. Anyone who thinks he/she can tell a woman whether or not to bring a child into this world should (at the very least) be compelled to raise a houseful of adopted children. Period. It is pure myth that there are plenty of good homes out there. Children are abused and neglected every day. I'd absolutely hate to have an abortion myself, but I could more easily do that, I believe, than give a child up for adoption and wonder for the rest of my life how that child was being treated. On second thought, I'd tell that pharmacist that denying me a prescription for birth control means that it's quite likely I'll have to resort to having an abortion. These people who are so staunchly anti-abortion should be on the front line in doing what can be done to limit the practice instead of making it more likely to occur.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 01:08 AM
Response to Original message
13. Wow is all I can say.
My post about Hoyer had at least 8 unrecs.

Inserting religious views into government and life issues that affect others' lives...used to be considered at least controversial here. Times have changed.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
snake in the grass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
15. How many vegans work in an abattoir?
That's exactly what these people are. If you can't do the job because of some moral objection, find another profession. Period.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 02:15 AM
Response to Original message
19. "Conscience Clause" is discriminaiton
If they don't want to do the job, they should seek out another occupation that does not conflict with their duties.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 02:20 AM
Response to Original message
20. "The Conscience Clause" need be part of training/certification. Do you want to be Med. Professionial
OR NOT?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eShirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. exactly
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. Exactly.
BTW your journal is very good. Was just reading some of it. :hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Zackly
What other profession plays these BS mindgames?




Thanks MF, much obliged. And your work is much appreciated. :yourock:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SheWhoMustBeObeyed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 02:53 AM
Response to Original message
21. I remember the WI case quite clearly
It led to Blagojevich signing an "emergency rule" that required IL pharmacists to fill prescriptions for Plan B. (That, and the "All Kids" state healthcare program, were two of the good things he did in office.) But pharmacy owners keep challenging it and getting favorable rulings.

Anyone who wants to argue with you about - well, I can't even figure out what - may not be aware that every victory the Christian Right wins is just one small part of a much larger plan for a theocratic takeover of our country. I recognize the distinction the President is making between Catholic hospitals and secular institutions. But they don't. They are all about setting precedents, legal precedents, that will allow them to expand their power incrementally. Every win is a major win because it contributes to the whole. That is what Pat Robertson's American Center for Law and Justice was expressly set up to accomplish. That's why Liberty "University" fed so many grads into the Bush administration. They have a plan, and they have the people and the money to put their plan into action.

So yes, they will eventually try to make the case for discriminating against "immoral" patients and diseases. And that will probably set yet another precedent for who-knows-what further diminishing of the separation between church and state. And no, I don't understand why that would not alarm the people who read this site.

But then I don't really follow this site anymore, so that may explain why I don't understand.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. Those two law schools permeated the DOJ under Bush. Great post.
Their folks are actively working to bring more religion into government, and as far as I can see our Democrats seem unaware of the danger.

Remember Monica Goodling?

How Pat Robertson's law school is changing America.

Monica Goodling has a problem. As senior counsel to Attorney General Alberto Gonzales and Justice Department liaison to the White House, Goodling no longer seems to know what the truth is. She must also be increasingly unclear about who her superiors are. This didn't used to be a problem for Goodling, now on indefinite leave from the DoJ. Everything was once very certain: Her boss's truth was always the same as God's truth. Her boss was always either God or one of His staffers.

..... A 1995 graduate of an evangelical Christian school, Messiah College, and a 1999 graduate of Pat Robertson's Regent University School of Law..., Goodling's chief claim to professional fame appears to have been loyalty to the president and to the process of reshaping the Justice Department in his image (and thus, His image). A former career official there told the Washington Post that Goodling "forced many very talented, career people out of main Justice so she could replace them with junior people that were either loyal to the administration or would score her some points." And as she rose at Justice, according to a former classmate, Goodling "developed a very positive reputation for people coming from Christian schools into Washington looking for employment in government."


And then there's Liberty University Law School

The legal program at the reverend's university represents the latest effort by the religious right to change American society.

The school is not the first to approach the law from a Christian perspective, nor is it the only such institution to emerge in recent years. Legal organizations backed by evangelical Christians have been waging court battles over the last two decades.

But it represents the latest effort by the religious right to transform American society - on everything from the division between church and state to such social issues as abortion and same-sex marriage - from the inside out. And it's an indication of the alienation that many conservative Christians feel amid the larger secular culture.

"Christians are just now coming around to see the importance of law and legal institutions in terms of judges and government," said Michael P. Schutt, director of the Institute for Christian Legal Studies at Regent University in Virginia Beach, Va., whose law school takes a similar approach to Liberty's. "So Christians have begun to think about how we can influence these important perspectives."

It's a direction that has raised eyebrows among some civil libertarians and constitutional law scholars who fear that schools like Liberty are designed to preach, not teach.

"I don't believe that the understanding of Jerry Falwell about the history of America and of the American Constitution is remotely accurate, nor is it ethically responsibly," said the Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State and a longtime critic of Falwell. "It is designed to turn America into his view of a Christian nation&. When you get these insular institutions who believe they are right and fighting the entire world, you get extremists coming out as graduates."


Thanks for the post.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Many of our Democrats are part of the religious intrusions/problems . . .
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #26
49. Yes, too many of them.
It's like they decided if you can't scream louder then just join them. :shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
28. If the Christo-Fascists don't want to do their job they need to get a new one.
That simple.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
29. for my own story, I pretty much did the same thing
except I was the owner. I had my own store and this guy ordered a book. One I had never heard of. For some reason I read the back cover to see what the book was about. It was about a man who made his wife a slave by having her kidnapped and then trained to be a slave. At the end of the book she learns to be a slave and she likes it. The book concludes with the man saying "I love you" and his wife/slave saying "I love you too".

Pretty sick and demented stuff if you ask me. I refused to sell it. But coward that I am, I did not confront the customer about it. Instead, I lied, and said I was unable to find the book.

Of course, the book is still available at Amazon, so I did not stop the guy from getting it, but he was not gonna get it from me.

I appreciate people who will take a stand instead of taking the easy way. They are standing up for their principles. I think their principles are a little bit screwy, but I still think it's neat when people stand up for their principles.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. I much admire your stance. But....
I admire your not selling the book, it sounds awful.

Health care is different though. It should not be determined that way.

Religion should not determine a choice affecting lives and the future.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
katandmoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. What an incredibly shitty comparison. So not selling a BOOK you considered objectionable is the
same as a state-licensed pharmacist not filling a medically prescribed legal drug?

Your comparison of these two situations is sick and misogynistic.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Since hfojvt stated the reason for not wanting to sell the book
how odd you would hurl "misogynistic."

Misguided? Not sick, certainly. The desire may be there, for a business owner or employee to limit choices for customers based on personal attitudes. A private bookseller has that right.

As you say, someone licensed to fill a medical prescription does not have that right. They have a professional obligation to serve the public and dispense prescriptions as written.

The notion of these people that they can pick and choose in this way shows a very UnChristian and unethical attitude.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
katandmoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. His ugly post speaks for itself
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. "shitty" "ugly" "shitty" "ugly"
Maybe the post is a bit off.
Maybe your interpretation of it is a bit off.
Maybe it's not QUITE what you think.

:hug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #34
46. You're assuming the person who used "misogynistic" knows what it means.
And it's hurled here all the time.

It's become a buzzword to laugh at.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. If you laugh at it
you are one :thumbsdown: or else you don't know what it means.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #48
50. Oh, the "I know you are but what am I?" type of argument.
LOL. Give it up.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. No: If you don't understand the definition and you mock the reality of it,
Edited on Sun Aug-23-09 12:31 PM by omega minimo
you are part of the problem, not the solution.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #32
45. self-delete. posted in wrong place
Edited on Sat Aug-22-09 06:20 PM by dem629
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
704wipes Donating Member (966 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. but it was not like the book was a medical necessity to that
particular consumer, and could not become a medical emergency if he did not buy it at that moment.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
katandmoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Nope! And refusing to sell it was in NO WAY comparable to a druggist refusing to fill
a birth control prescription for a woman whose doctor had prescribed it.

IN NO WAY.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #37
52. except for how the bookseller felt about it, which seemed to be what hfojvt was saying
:shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
31. One court ruling...pharmacists can't deny Plan B, the emergency contraception pill.
Not the end of the story, but at least slowed them down a bit.

Pharmacists can't refuse Plan B pill, appeals court says

This is good but will be appealed again. This affects a woman's future, her family's future.

Pharmacists are obliged to dispense the Plan B pill, even if they are personally opposed to the "morning after" contraceptive on religious grounds, a federal appeals court ruled Wednesday.

In a case that could affect policy across the Western states, a supermarket pharmacy owner in Olympia, Wash., failed in a bid to block 2007 changes to pharmacy regulations that required all Washington pharmacies to stock and dispense the contraceptive.

Family-owned Ralph's Thriftway and two women employed at other pharmacies sued Washington state officials over the requirement. The plaintiffs asserted that their Christian beliefs prevented them from dispensing the pills, which can prevent implantation of a recently fertilized egg. They said that the new regulations would force them to choose between keeping their jobs and heeding their religious objections to a medication they regard as a form of abortion.

Ralph's owners, Stormans Inc., and pharmacists Rhonda Mesler and Margo Thelen sought protection under the 1st Amendment right to free exercise of religion and won a temporary injunction from the U.S. District Court in Seattle pending trial on the constitutionality of the regulations. That order prevented state officials from penalizing pharmacists who refused to dispense Plan B as long as they referred consumers to a nearby pharmacy where they could get it.

On Wednesday, a three-judge panel of the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals lifted the injunction, saying the district court was wrong in issuing it based on an erroneous finding that the rules violate the Free Exercise Clause of the Constitution. Other constitutional challenges are pending with the district court, which had been waiting for the 9th Circuit ruling on the injunction, said Chad Allred, a Seattle lawyer whose firm represents the Stormans and the pharmacists. In anticipation of the injunction being vacated, Stormans and the two pharmacists secured an agreement with the state that it would not pursue sanctions against them until the other issues were decided at trial, Allred said.


They will never stop fighting to control the issues that face women. They want to base women's health care on their religious views.

We need to fight back and be aware constantly.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #31
39. It's been a hard battle in Washington state
I give credit to Governor Gregoire for taking her strong stand on this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUV9uhz9HNc

And I'm glad we have the 9th Circuit still making sound rulings.

Seattle Weekly had a fascinating article about Judge Fletcher this week. I wonder if she was on that panel.
http://www.seattleweekly.com/2009-08-19/news/judge-betty-s-revenge/
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU GrovelBot  Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
33. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##



This week is our third quarter 2009 fund drive. Democratic Underground is
a completely independent website. We depend on donations from our members
to cover our costs. Please take a moment to donate! Thank you!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DonCoquixote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
38. Pressure needs to be applied to the Pharmacy chain
Because the only language they speak is money.

For example endometriosis is a potentially fatal disease, because women can bleed to death. What I say is, find one case where a patient was denied medicine, then fly in the aclu and the nastiest lawyers in the land. After all, the religous right cannot demonize the woman, since she was treating a diseases that would,in fact leave her unable to breed if untreated (and this is what they care about anyway.) Then, onve the big fat lawsuits come in, then CVS wand Walgreens will tuck their tail between their legs.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tooeyeten Donating Member (441 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
41. But rightwingers don't have consciences.
I'm absolutely sure of it, and this proves it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KakistocracyHater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
42. like the twisting of words & meanings that got us into Iraq, the Right is now
lying again. Where everyone assumes they mean abortion/abortion they DO NOT. They mean ALL birth control, EVERY SINGLE METHOD. Look at talk2action, or their own 'ladies against feminism', listen to the wife of the president of the Baptist conglomerate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
chasitynola Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
43. Walgreen's company
refused to fill my birth control. It is humiliating. My gyno called in a special pack as a morning after type treatment and they tried to stall until my window of opportunity closed. Ridiculous.

These people say they want less abortions, but the actions they take in their pharmacies only drive women to the next step...abortion if they cannot prevent the unwanted pregnancy in the first place.

I have never used Walgreens again. I was outraged and told them so...not that they care.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hansel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
44. Why is this not practicing medicine without a license?
A pharmacist is in no position to know why the doctor wrote the prescription and has no business making a change to a diagnostic and treatment course determined by a doctor.

Also, lecturing a customer about their medication in full ear shot of other customers is a violation of the patient's right to confidentiality. If a pharmacist ever pulled this on me the manager and I would be having a very loud conversation.

I cannot see how the government in any way can pass a law telling pharmacists that they can override a treatment course determined by a doctor who far more information about the patient's circumstances and needs. If they object to dispensing certain medications, then the churches should open their own pharmacies and post their rules about what medicines they will dispense.



Someone should ask these folks what they would think if someone refused to sell them a gun or ammunition because they believe in gun control because Jesus didn't believe in violence.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. Sounds like it to me.
It does sound like they are denying medical care...overriding the doctor's orders.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Apr 30th 2024, 03:15 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC