HELP! my brother did cash-for-clunkers and now the dealer wants more money.HELP!

http://www.cars.gov/

I suspect a ripoff in the works.

According to the website,my brother qualifies if the new vehicle gets 10 MPG better than his old vehicle.
old car;1988 Buick Century,2.8L V6 3-sp. auto
new car;Nissan Versa BASE model 1.6L 5-sp. manual.
We spent hours at the dealership Thurs. evening while they did all the paperwork.
Since my brother lives with our older sister and gives her rides/helps out in general,she put up $5000 cash.
brother put up Buick for C-for-C program,which they accept,and they tell him he qualifies for the full $4500 credit,not the $3500 he originally thought,and puts the rest on his credit card so it's paid for in fulll.
NOW they call him up and say they want more money.
AAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:
:argh: :argh: :argh: :argh:

Need more detail

until payment from the government arrives.

If he qualifies, he should get the car with the discount included.

And check with your state consumer affairs department to learn what your rights are.

Dealer bullshit.

You'll never win with a crooked dealer.

Makes about as much sense as you buy a house, move in, decide you don't like it and return it to the previous owners. Just mail them the keys and walk away.

The sales contract is binding once delivery is taken. You sign, you drive, it is you problem.

They don't have that there?

In Texas once it's signed for and taken deliver of it's yours, there's no three day rule.

I guess we have one thing right here.

spends on average at least 3 hours there, negotiates a prices, signs a contract, drives off in the car, all on their own free will, I really don't understand why they would get 3 days to turn it back in. :shrug:

I think they passed it several years ago when there was a raft of complaints about driving home a car that had all sorts of problems. If the dealer can't guarantee it for three days, perhaps they're due a refund.

And your car has to qualify for specific reasons. In Texas it has to be in the shop for so many days, so many attempts to fix it, etc.

Those problems aren't going to show up in 3 days. A 3 day return is very different than Lemon Laws. I've seen people try and return a vehicle within a week of purchase, they came in on their own, signed on their own, drove off on their own, then two days later decide they didn't want it. They were SOL.

But they carefully explained it at the dealership.

The 3 day rule is one of the largest believed urban legends.

I have seen the tears on the other end when people find out no such thing exists.

No state has a blanket 72 hour rule.

I think you're all correct - I don't see anything in here about 3 days. But I know we had some conversation about it. Maybe I was hallucinating.

Good thing I still really like my car. Yikes!

I sold cars for 2 years I have seen just about anything you can imagine.
Some salesman would do anything to close a deal.

Glad it worked out well for you despite their dishonesty.

It is plain as day on the contract and it is also--I believe required to be--clearly posted in customer areas "There is no "cooling off" period for the purchase of a motor vehicle".

I believe you have to purchase it with the vehicle, and then if within 30 days you want to return the used car you have to pay for the time & mileage while you had it. That passed a few years ago.

If the sales contract states that the price is subject to confirmation of the trade-in's qualification, worst case is the contract should give you the option of cancelling the contract. I'm not sure how these are written but they can't state one thing only to find out the facts have changed and not give him the option to get out of the deal.

Did they clearly explain the program and how it works to him or did they leave it to him to read the fine print?

The consequences are harsh.

You know... death panels and all that.

Well, not death panels.

I will point out that my brother works with autistic/developmentally disabled,and he wanted a safe car in case he ever needs to give any of them a ride somewhere.
also,letter writing campaign/me walking around out front with a big sign calling congresscritter etc.etc. I will make their lives miserable in every way possible.

I know time is a problem, as the program is set to end, but call and see if a staff is there to hear the problem. Thinking some in Congress might wanna make issues of scammers of this program ;)

The dealer likely put the funding request into govt in good faith.
The got denied it and now the dealer is not going to get paid the $4500 or $3500.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/CarsResult1.jsp?column=1&id=4537

The trade-in gets 20mpg which is ineligible for cars program.

The dealer is going to seek payment from your brother.

if necessary.

I guess y'all aren't the first that are being ripped by a dishonest car dealer. Who woulda guessed?

That's a typical "bait and switch" tactic.

They're not looking for more profit, they let the car off of the lot knowing that they can't secure financing without a larger down payment, and count on the buyer not wanting to have to return the car.

I would think that should shift the risk vs gain equation sharply off kilter for them.

Having a voucher does not guarantee that financing for a new car will be available.

Although, if they've already junked the clunker, they're in a bit of a tight spot...

See Statistical's reply downthread.

They got $5K from sis and another $4.5 or $3.5K from C4C.

I'm not looking it up but I am guessing that the Nissan is <$25K.

I have know idea what the OP's brother's credit looks like.

read the OP...paid in full

If the brother has a signed bill of sale, the dealership is SOL.

when we went there we thought my brother would only qualify for the $3500 credit,but they said he qualified for the $4500 credit,and filled out all the paperwork to that effect.
if they made an honest mistake I could see it,but seriously,don't they know WTF they're doing? :wtf:

If you have a new car and a signed bill of sale, you own the car. Now if the salesman is a really nice guy and he honestly blew the calculation, and you want to help him keep his job, then lay down another grand. But from what it sounds like in you post, you got an extra thousand off.

Although it seems like a single transaction there are actually two COMPLETELY SEPERATE transactions going on.

1) car is purchased for $xxxxx
2) the $xxxxx is paid for via a variety of combinations including trade-in, c4c, cash, financing, etc.

So a mistake in part 2 doesn't invalidate the sale in part 1.

Bad news for the OP the trade-in according to cars website doesn't qualify for either $3500 or $4500.

It gets 20mpg. The OP brother will end up owing $4500. He can pay it however he wants but he will still end up owing it.

Not even for the $3500. I was thinking from the OP, it did qualify for the $3500, but not the $4500 -- which could be the difference in engine/transmission combinations. :argh:

One would think the salesman would've double checked before writing the deal. Wonder how this will shake out?

If so, that thing is paid for. The dealer can go pound sand.

If the dealer has the old Buick, the new car and the $5000, then you need to a) call the credit card company and back out of the payment, b) get a lawyer, and c) contact whoever regulates car dealers in your state.

I just noticed you are in California. The dealers are regulated by the DMV and to a certain extent the Bureau of Automotive Repair

Is there a bill of sale, and do you have it?

and he doesn't have a computer or cel phone,so I have to wait for him to call back or bring the contract over here.
according to the official www.cars.gov website the Buick gets 20 mpg combined and the Versa gets 29 mpg combined,which is why he thought he only qualified for $3500 instead of $4500.

:wow: I hope he pays that off soon.

But it's a HELOC at very low interest which is also deducible.

and SECURED it with your home. Brilliant.

The only thing worse was getting in to debt in the first place.

It is secured with the car.

Problem solved

The duck is loose?!

Usually when I post that pic at least half a dozen people point that out

I feel so so...fowled.

:rofl:

It doesn't qualify. Your bro owes the dealer $4500 minus whatever the trade in vehicle is worth.

You can check the qualification of any vehicle here:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/CarsResult1.jsp?column=1&id=4537

20mpg combined rating does not qualify for the cars program.

So if the dealership takes the Century as a trade in.... KBB puts the value at around $125 to $250 with 120,000 miles.

Leave it to you, Statistical, to work the numbers.

:toast:

sorry for the buyer in this error, though.

It may very well have a clause that if the C4C money isn't approved your brother would have to pay it up.

If it does state that then he should work out a payment plan with them.

I bought a new car under C4C last week and just read through the contract. C4C funds are on the same form as the manufacturer rebate--which assigns the $4500 back to the dealer. Not any mention of a contingency of the buyer being liable for that if it is not paid to the dealer.

Since I'm also in California and the paperwork is pretty standard; I'm going to say it's a done deal. The dealer screwed up and they lost.

is to take a trip to their local DMV office tomorrow and ask to talk with an inspector from the vehicle dealer licensing division.

Consumers signs a sales contract which is a binding contract to purchase the vehicle for a set price.

Everything else is secondary. I have seen where wrong pay off amounts were given, or where financing fell through. Nothing affects the sale contact.

The consumer was going to use $4500 c4c to pay for part of the vehicle. They can't now but the sales contract is that the consumer bought the vehicle for $xxxx. That hasn't changed.

The consumer will need to come up with alternate method of paying for it.

The contracts are always worded "conditional payment" or on "condition of funds" there is no need for C4c specific language it is just another form of payment and in this case it didn't go through.

Likely the buyer can sign a car note for the $4500.

I repossessed cars for 20 years and have repossessed many, many cars based on the 'conditional sales agreement' which was included in nearly every dealer's sales package of documents signed by every customer who drives a car off the lot whether paid in cash or financed. It is an automatic out which protects the dealer from themselves, from a fraudulent buyer, or any other unforeseen circumstance which may arise.

Again reading through my own contract I would say the dealer's gonna lose, but I really don't know how the laws would apply to this particular situation.
I would advise the owner to repo-proof (other than a locked and blocked garage, I will leave any other repo-proofing tips to our resident repo expert upthread) the new vehicle until a lawyer or a DMV Investigator can give them some accurate advice.

"Are there different CARS credit amounts for the purchase or lease of a new passenger car?

YES. The amount depends on the fuel economy of the new passenger car and the fuel economy of the trade-in vehicle. If the new vehicle has a combined fuel economy that is at least 4, but less than 10, miles per gallon higher than the traded-in vehicle, the credit is $3,500. If the new vehicle has a combined fuel economy value that is at least 10 miles per gallon higher than the traded-in vehicle, the credit is $4,500."

so it looks like he would have qualified for the $3500 no problem.

"A dealer has demanded that I sign an agreement that requires me to pay the dealer the amount of the CARS program credit if the dealer's CARS program credit application is rejected. Am I required to agree to this?

NO. To participate in the CARS program, you do not have to sign an agreement to pay back the dealer the CARS credit amount if the deal is rejected. (See specific questions/answers, below, for more details)."

he went in there thinking he was only qualified for the smaller amount,and was willing to pay that amount,but they said he qualified for the higher amount,and filled out all the paperwork to reflect that.

the other thing is,as far as he's concerned,it's paid in full.he has a bill of sale saying that.
if he'd bought a loaf of bread for $2.29 would it be OK for the store to call him up and say "we normally charge $2.79 for that bread,bring us .50 cents or we take the bread back."

I think it would cost them more than the car is worth at this point,in lawyers fees,unless he gives them the money out of the kindness of his heart.

"A dealer has included in the purchase agreement a requirement that I return the new car or pay the dealer the amount of the CARS program credit if the CARS program credit application is rejected. Do I have to sign this in order to participate in the CARS Program?

NO. You are not required to sign an agreement like this to participate in the CARS Program. However, you may agree to such a term, but your choice to agree is between you and the dealer."

That's why I said you need to read the contract, while it's not required, the contract may have included that part.

The c4c program has a 18nmpg maximum on the trade-in.
The trade-in was 20mpg.

I think the moment you brought a credit card in to buying a freaking car (and then consider that "paid in full") you were asking for trouble.

What were your plans when your bank rate jacked your card to 30%?

As far as the seller is concerned, the car is paid for just as it would be if the buyer used a cashier's check.

and has his money.

The buyer is a fool. The seller is laughing all the way to the bank.

my brother would have been perfectly happy with some of the other cars & trucks they're turning in for this program.

WHO CARES WHAT THE DAMN THING LOOKS LIKE? No according to the rules it is NOT.

The program is not designed to get you in to a new car because yours doesn't look like a luxury car.

Your brother GOT IN TO DEBT in a pathetic attempt to get a car HE COULD NOT AFFORD. (putting it on a credit card - one of the WORST moves that can be done when buying a car - just illustrates that point)

He is going to be in some MAJOR financial trouble if he doesn't grow the hell up, stop doing stupid shit like this, and getting further in to debt. Is he 18 years old? (serious question) This sounds to me like something a teenager would do.

Now he is on the hook for another couple grand when he could not afford it to begin with. And the banks are going freaking nuts right now with rate jacking people especially before the new CARD law comes in to effect. You can pretty much guarantee as soon as they see how much he has over extended him self and just put a car on his credit card they WILL rate jack him. His minimum payment and and amount he is paying on interest will be sky high.

He needs to look at selling this car ASAP. The worst thing is if he can't come up with the couple grand FAST (only way is to sell it or take out yet another loan) they WILL be able to reposses it. And one of the worst things about putting it on a card is the fact he won't have the car AND will still be on the hook for the UNSECURED amount of money he put on the credit card.

get a fucking grip,OK? :wtf:

this is half the reason this country is in the economic mess it is. Too many people taking on DEBT they shouldn't be.

You do not know their situations. You simply assume that everyone who uses debt is misusing it and berate them. It is a choice some of us HAVE to make: pollution-spewing gas guzzlers or some debt. Thank you for your concern.

You say "pollution spewing" like your goal here was to help the environment, when just a few posts above you make a claim it should be clunker based on how it LOOKS. Please don't take me for a fool. He wanted a nice shiny new car so it would LOOK GOOD.

And yes - if you are in debt you have a problem. If you are in debt for a CAR you have a problem.

When you are in debt for material things like a car it means your bought something you CAN NOT AFFORD. It will end up making you weak over time because your money is going in to car payments and interest to a BANK THAT OWNS YOUR ASS instead of using that money to build up your savings.

Using a freaking credit card to buy a car? And you accuse me of not knowing finances? ANY financial advisor in the country with half a brain will tell you to NEVER EVER EVER EVEN CONSIDER buying a car on a credit card.

Anyway the only way out of this is for him to sell the damn thing. If he is smart about it he will only take a 2-3K hit.

Otherwise he WILL lose the car AND he will still owe the amount foolishly charged to the credit card.

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doesn't matter if it's money you have or money your borrow as long as you go spend, spend, spend!

When Bush said to spend money DU rightfully laughed, now that Obama is saying there are some saying it's unpatriotic to not spend.

So the dealer wants your brother to pay the $4500.00 that the government won't cover.

You are in deep shit, I'd say. Somebody should've gone to the website the government set up to look up his car to see if it even qualified. It didn't. The buick in question gets 20mpg. It's too high to qualify.

I grabbed this off the cars website:

* have been manufactured less than 25 years before the date you trade it in and, in the case of a category 3 vehicle, must also have been manufactured not later than model year 2001
* have a "new" combined city/highway fuel economy of 18 miles per gallon or less
* be in drivable condition
* be continuously insured and registered to the same owner for the full year preceding the trade-in

The dealer may be stuck as long as your brother didn't misrepresent what car he was trading in. The dealer should have known whether the trade-in qualified and if so for how much. If they messed up on that part then its on the dealer. So even if the car didn't qualify (which seems to be the case), the dealer seems to have represented to the purchaser that it would receive the rebate anyway.

From the FAQ (http://www.cars.gov/faq):

A dealer has demanded that I sign an agreement that requires me to pay the dealer if the credit application is rejected because I submit incorrect information regarding my name, residence address, driver's license number, or the title to my trade-in car. Am I required to agree to this?

"NO. However, be aware that to participate in the CARS program you must certify under penalty of law that all information you provide is true. If your CARS program credit is denied because of a false statement made by you, the dealer may take action to recover the money or vehicle regardless of whether you sign such an agreement."


Also since the trade-in is scrapped, the dealer is only entitled to keep the first $50 of what they receive for scrapping the car. Any balance can to the consumer if negotiated for:

Do I get any money for my trade in vehicle in addition to the CARS credit?

YES. The law requires your trade-in vehicle be destroyed. The dealer must disclose to you the scrap value of your vehicle. The dealer is entitled to keep up to $50 of the scrap value for administrative fees. You are entitled to negotiate about who keeps the remaining scrap value. For example, you may use that money toward the price of your new car separate from the CARS credit.

assuming he paid what the contract called for

The dealer still has to register and get the plates for the vehicle, at that point they could title the vehicle in the new owner's name.