Use or Abuse?

I live in a fairly affluent town in eastern Washington, mostly college educated with a large population holding advanced degrees. The University here has a lot of graduate students. In my ten or 12 years here I've only seen 3 people using food stamps and/or WIC cards. Back in Texas it was very common to see families in line using assistance.

All of the people I've seen use them here I've seen taking classes on campus, all three have children. In all three instances I was behind the people in line and went out after them. They all drove very nice vans or SUVs, pretty new vehicles. My wife said it's common for graduate students to be on food stamps.

I know it sounds like I'm against this but I really have no opinion other than wondering what route I would take in this situation. Would I look for better employment to care for my family, or would I get an education? Was the WIC and Food Stamp program designed for kids to use while in college? The student population at WSU is not known to be poor, the students either come from the west side around Seattle of from the wheat-rich farming community.

What are you thoughts on students using food assistant programs?

abuse.

but you were close enough behind them to follow them out to the parking lot and see what kind of cars they got into?

How long does it take to walk from the check-out line to one's car? 30 seconds? A minute?

How long does it take to check out? Two minutes? Five?

Or did it just so happen that each and every time you were behind someone using food stamps or a WIC card/coupon/check, you only had one or two items yourself so you were able to check out and pay and stay right behind that "poor" person taking your tax money and spending it on groceries before she got in her nice sorta new car?

Now, I'm not saying you're inventing some of the details here, but having been a grocery store cashier in recent years, I know it takes a bit of time to check out even if it's just a couple items. By the time I finish paying for a head of lettuce or a couple mushrooms at the Safeway in Mesa, the person ahead of me is long gone, whether they've got a full cart or a pack of gum.

No matter what social welfare system is in place, there will always be people who take advantage of it. And there will always be people who are too proud to admit their need and will do everything they can to disguise it, even to the point of making sure they don't look like they need it.

You didn't sit on the board that determined the eligibility of these food stamps/WIC recipients. You don't know if they really "deserved" it or not, and neither do I. How 'bout let's neither of us lose any sleep over it? How 'bout we think of all the "truly needy" who do benefit consider that if someone else gets a little extra, well, that's okay.



Tansy Gold, who has seen more than her share of the "truly needy" and wouldn't want any of those programs to be cut because a few lowlifes took unfair advantage. "Truly their reward will be in heaven" and all that cockamamie bullshit, y'know?

each time I had two or three items, the family had a coupe of baskets/carts. Students here tend to buy groceries all at once, when the semester begins, which it does on Monday. It's very common to see parents and kids on the weekend before school starts with two and three carts of groceries. With that said, I didn't "spy" on anyone. I simply walked out behind them.

I also learned a lot stocking and checking groceries at night while I worked my way through college. I'm older now and back in school for the fun of it. I never mentioned nor implied anything should be cut, I simply asked for some other thoughts.

damned hard to get on the program unless you really can demonstrate need.

For the lurkers --

Here's how it works in Arizona, and since it's a federal program, I doubt it's very different anywhere else:

WIC is only available to pregnant women, infants, and childrn to age 5. This means that a college student who has a child under five is only getting benefits for her child/ren, not herself, unless she is pregnant.

WIC aid consists of a check that is payable to the store where the items are purchased. No cash is given to the beneficiary, and she (or her authorized representative, and that's a whole other bureaucracy) signs the check over to the store. The check is made out BY the cashier for the amount of the purchase, no more, no less.

WIC aid is only applicable to a very narrow list of items. For example: Eggs: white, large eggs only. No brown eggs. No free-range organic eggs. Juices are listed by flavor, brand, and size of container. Cereals the same: no heavily-sweetened cereals, no individual variety boxes, etc. Milk: I think it was only whole milk or 2%. Essentially, WIC is for very basic nutirition. Each client gets a folder with pictures telling her what she can and can't get with it, and how much. The supermarket where I worked -- Fry's, which is a division of the Kroger chain -- was set up so that if the item wasn't on the approved list, it wouldn't ring up on the register. There were no substitutions, no overrides. And they were very closely monitored, by management and by the state. Violations of even the most minor kind could not only get a cashier fired but could cost the store the right to take WIC checks.

You can't get cat food with it, you can't cash it out and buy beer and cigarettes. WIC funds are distributed in such a way that the recipients can't "stock up"; each check is only good for about one or two weeks' worth of goods. About half are perishables -- milk, cheese, other dairy products -- and so couldn't be bought in large quantities "at the beginning of the semester" anyway.

I'm really sorry, but it bugs the poop outta me every time I hear or read a whine about "Do you think it's right that (such-and-such group of individuals whom I don't think are really WORTHY) are getting these freebies on our tax dime?" Maybe it's the bleeding heart liberal in me. Maybe it's the fact that I've been very very close to seeking that kind of aid more than once in my life. At the moment, I could probably qualify for it today, but I'm fortunate enough to have sufficient resources to meet my grocery needs. In the end, I'm glad we have programs in place that help people.

Just because someone is a graduate student -- did you verify that by asking to see their ID cards? -- or drives or gets a ride in a "nice" car, a "new" car, an SUV, doesn't mean they aren't needy. Don't fall the old Reagan welfare-queen bullshit. Anyone who is on WIC really needs it, and most of those on food stamps are probably deserving, too.

Instead of worrying that maybe they don't, just thank your lucky stars you're able to go to school for the fun of it. You have no idea how many people wish they were in your shoes.

No system is perfect. There will always be people who get more than some of us think they deserve. And there will always be those who are oh so self-righteous as to IMPLY that they would never stoop so low if they found themselves in that same set of circumstances.

Point is, neither you nor I know what their circumstances are. And only one of us cares.


Tansy Gold

worked very hard to be in these shoes. We were 86,000 dollars in debt after medical school, we are still paying for the food we ate 10 years ago. Those were loans we took out, we didn't use food stamps. I haven't judged anyone so don't judge me.

"Those were loans we took out, we didn't use food stamps," you essentially said you were better than those who relied on public assistance. Otherwise you wouldn't have said it.

Enjoy your comfortable life, Mike. And don't worry your pretty little head about the rest of us. We'll make do just fine. Somehow.



Tansy Gold, just overflowing with snark today and not inclined to apologize for it.

it's your ass that's showing. Put all the words in my mouth you want, I care very little for your hatefulness. I have no desire to know anything about you.

If anyone should NOT be begrudging someone FOOD, it should be a doctor.

You have no idea as to their circumstance, you assume everything.

My 26 yr old son has ZERO financial stability on his own, a dialysis patient waiting for a transplant and he drives a decent car
BECAUSE HIS PARENTS BOUGHT IT FOR HIM so he can take himself to those dialysis treatments 3 x per week.

You need to educate yourself (and quickly!) on just how damn difficult it is to qualify for food stamps and just how little they cover.

If there are children involved, trust me, it is not NEARLY enough.

My disabled son, w/only $475/mo income cannot even qualify! And he is a dialysis patient w/a serious need for good nutrition!

You need to do a serious self-examination in lieu of examining those you may feel are taking something away from you.

Good Lord. It's freaking food, ffs.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Granted, it's often because the person using it is either trying to get away with something or for some reason simply doesn't get that you have to get what WIC says and ONLY what WIC says- but WIC customers are often a nuisance in the line because of the delay. Of course, there is the occasional cashier who seems to be unable to do a WIC transaction without straining his or her mental capacity, but the point it that people bitch when EBT is too lax and bitch when WIC is too stringent.

Something you appear to be ignoring, is that this is a discussion about the appearance and propriety of being on welfare. It's just a discussion, not a policy meeting or wagging finger of shame in a grocery store. Do you deny that there are people who abuse the charity of others? Should everyone pretend they don't notice?

It's a matter of saying, essentially, that graduate students who drive nice cars should be investigated for welfare fraud.

that's a signal, to me at least, that there's some jealousy out there, some right wing nastiness that fears -- fear being the essential ingredient in right wing thinking -- that someone is getting a benefit they don't deserve.

Of course Blackwater doesn't deserve its contracts and KBR ought to be taken out and shot (I don't have anything against executing corporations for capital crimes), but we're not talking about that. The OP said he saw these graduate students buying their beginning of semester groceries with food stamps/EBT cards/WIC checks, he wondered if the rest of DU thought that was right.

IMHO, that's a fishing expedition. "I saw this thing going on and here are the details and what do you think about it?" The implication is "You agree with me, don't you, that this is wrong and we ought to go after these people?"

Try reading the post in Editorials on the compassion shown to an American father of a sick newborn in a London maternity hospital. It's about common decency, and the same applies here. Not common decency on the part of those "frauds," but common decency on the part of the "have mores." The ones who were able to get $86,000 in school loans to go to medical school. The ones who are able to go to college for the fun of it.

It's been a few months ago now, but I was in line at Fry's one morning, kind of in a hurry but not desperately so. In front of me was a young woman with a couple of little boys I think, and she was trying to figure out her WIC check and what it would buy and what it wouldn't. She had got something wrong because the rules had changed -- they put out a new folder every year listing, with pictures, what can and can't be bought with WIC checks -- and because Fry's didn't carry the item she wanted. The cashier was getting very frustrated but she was patient and never lost her temper. IIRC, it reached the point where the customer gave up and canceled the purchase, but she was still standing there at the register, with her young boys, when the cashier's supervisor, who was called over to void the transaction, said loud enough for me to hear, "Why didn't she just go out and get a job so she doesn't have to go through all this?" or something to that effect.

I was so appalled I could hardly get through my short transaction, and by the time I reached my car I was shaking so badly I didn't trust myself to drive. I pulled out my cell phone and called the number on the bottom of my receipt, and asked to speak to the manager of the store.

"I'm out here in the parking lot. This is the number on my receipt: cashier number, transaction number, time, everything. I'm too upset to drive." And I told him the entire story, giving the supervisor's name.

The difference between welfare fraud and Blackwater fraud is that one is being perpetrated by an individual at the bottom of the power ladder, and the other by an individual/corporation at the top. So if you're gonna be "concerned" about the "appearance" of fraud, worry more about the Blackwaters and the KBRs and let those graduate students on food stamps alone. They may grow up to be the microbiologist who finds a cure for swine flu or the engineer who develops a car that runs on dog poop.

Many, many, many, many years ago, I knew a woman back in Indiana whose husband's union went on strike. They weren't hurting financially, but she was able to get on food stamps. In our small town, everyone knew everyone else, but she didn't want to have to go to her usual "upscale" grocery store (in those days, the A&P was the upscale store in town) so she went to another. When they told her couldn't by cat food with food stamps, she just bought cans of tuna and chicken. She laughed about it, thought she had pulled a fast one on "the system." She didn't need the money -- her fmily had a lucrative business in which she retained an interest and received a substantial income, plus she did day care in her home for a hefty unreported cash income -- but she took it anyway.

And y'know what? It didn't matter. Because at least the cats -- and I don't care for cats -- got fed.

You're "concern" for the mothers' eligibility for benefits is duly noted. I know you're concerned that our taxpayer interests are being looked after. As someone who was never married to a doctor and is paying off student loans out of social security, I think I'll politely just say, well, I'm going to mind my own business.


Tansy Gold

that anyone cared enough to report to a manager that an employee was rude to a person because they were poor.

And I am sad that I'm shocked.

Tansy Gold, who does NOT know when to keep her mouth shut and is proud of it.

And yes, I have paid special attention to some folks using EBT cards, the ones who swipe the EBT for the $80 worth of eligible purchases and then take about a wad of cash for the $100 of ineligible purchases. Yes, I sinfully notice things like hair, nails, clothes, handbags... and cars. Oddly enough, I do wonder how a person on food stamps affords or justifies somethings, like professional manicures and nails which make it quite obvious that a person has no intention of doing manual labor.

You see, I'm standing there in about $16 worth of clothes, which are sweated through and dried from my work, with feet and ankles that hurt so bad it's all I can do to stand in line, so I tend to distract myself by paying attention to the people around me. Not just the EBT folks, I also note the contents of the carts of folks who pay by many methods, and see what their purchases tell me about them. Like the guys who clearly have a cart half full of vegetarian stuff, and the other half full of carnivorous and processed delights. I love folks who have carts full of health food and enough liquor to explain why I don't see health.

And before some idiot rolls eyes on me, I am not saying that I see EBT abuse every time I go to the store. Actually, I'm not even saying that I see it at all. I suppose that a person could go EBT shopping for someone else, that the woman with the four inch nails could be shopping for her disabled sister or a neighbor. I'm also not one to complain when an EBT customer buys himself the occasional treat. Actually, it was some Republican I heard put it this way: "Through my taxes and donation I contribute to charity for the benefit of the poor. I do not worry about the occasional person who steals from the truly poor, who abuses my charity, it's his sin and he will answer for it. My duty is to be charitable."

But I am allowed to notice.

My sister is a flight attendent and gets her nails done professionally because at the beginning of her job she was told that her nails were unacceptable. She makes decent money now, but beginning flight attendents at many airlines might qualify for fiid assistance. Low level clerical jobs often pay poorly, but expect that women holding them look "professional".
Cars, clothes, and handbags can be bought at discount or given or come from better times for someone who lost their job.

I've frequently caught people who were a place or two ahead of me in line when leaving the grocery store.

But when you have to ring up the total, take their money or wait for them to run their card through the machine, wait for someone to bag things -- yes, even a couple items can take longer than it takes for the customer ahead to make it out to the parking lot.

Been there, done that, for a whole lotta years.



TG

Thank you.

I have to give credit to this kid who checked me out at the local Kroger yesterday. I had 25-30 items...a load of that was produce and not bar-coded stuff. This kid (and I call him kid because he couldn't have been much older than 16) kicked royal checkout ass...and his bagging partner rocked too...these guys must have been some kind of championship-checker-team! He scanned all the bar-coded items so fast I was surprised the machine could keep up and then the really cool stuff...he knew every code for all of the produce and didn't miss a beat...knew the diff between the cucumbers and zucchini...caught the organic stuff and got the codes right...I mean he kicked butt! I had never experienced anything like it...most everyone always has to look up every PLU code that wasn't on the sticker for the fruit or veg...not this guy.

I know it has nothing to do with the thread...but this kid kicked ass and I wish I had gotten his name so I could give him (and his baggin' buddy) a good word with the manager!

sP

Of course, I can't speak to the specific students you mention, but am speaking to the general ...

Until we had a doctoral candidate in the family, I really had no idea of the kind of stuff people I dub "professional students" get away with. EBT cards while driving an SUV? Try summers in Austria paid for by grants. Try to figure out how it is that some people are struggling to pay to go to the local public college, while others have paid absolutely nothing for their education, and often for their own support, since moving into a masters program. How does a person get a PhD in something nearly useless , from Yale no less, and pay nothing at all to do it, while getting free trips? I was amazed.

by teaching classes, doing research, etc. There may be some graduate students who get paid to sit around or to take trips without doing any real work, but they're not the norm, in my experience ...

in medical school she had loans totaling 86,000 dollars. We both came from pretty poor backgrounds. We are now paying those loans off. I wonder if graduate students apply for the same type loans, the ones we had covered rent, food, tuition, books, and incidentals. She had a worksheet to fill out.

If the loans are available for graduate school students why use food stamps?

And not every one is able to get all the loans that they need to cover all expenses.

Beyond that, though, should someone who is employed at a low paying job not be eligible (or not take advantage of their eligibility for) food benefits simply because they are also a student?

anyone who needs it should be able to get food stamps. I was just wondering how I would handle the situation. Would I still go to school or would I work full time? I do understand there are those out there working full time and still not making ends meet, I'm not talking about them. If you were a student and needed help feeding your family would you continue school or get a job?

I suppose there are exceptions, but in many cases continuing in school is a better long-term decision for the family. Quitting school, for example, could lead to years of diminished earnings and opportunities whereas accepting food benefits for a year or two might enable a parents to position themselves such that they are unlikely to ever need such aid again. I've known couples for whom that was the case, at both the undergraduate and graduate levels. On a personal level, I can see where it would be a difficult decision and where certain social factors would push against accepting help, but I think they made the right choice in continuing.

Many doctors can expect to make that much money or more within a few years of graduation, PHDs not so much.

10 years to earn enough to buy a new car. It's not what everyone thinks it is, overhead can kill you for 5 to 10 years. You're not only trying to earn your salary but you have to earn the salaries of everyone in the office.

I"m not trying to be difficult, I think it really depends on what you view the history and purpose of welfare to be.

Clearly food stamps aren't to prevent starvation- because we have other systems in place to do that.
Clearly food stamps aren't about ensuring a healthy diet, that's what WIC tries to do, but EBT has no such restrictions (other than soda and hot food).

Are food stamps about keeping children out of lines for food pantries? About keeping kids out of soup kitchens?

Are food stamps about improving the lives of poor people or making us feel better as a society?

Were food stamps and other programs about helping the poor, or averting a race and/or class war?

Are food stamps and Section 8 about subsidizing McDonald's and Walmart wages?

If the answer to even half of these questions is yes, then students with children using food stamps isn't really a violation of their "true purpose" since they don't really have a true purpose. They are simply a subsidy for those who are eligible for them- nothing noble about it.

Yes, the students are clearly taking advantage of a system which allows them to make bad choices at the expense of others, but isn't that true about a lot of things?

Now the vicious capitalist in me does think that if one is going to go to school on welfare, then one really owes it to society to be studying something with the promise of productivity. It would be rather viral, for instance, to go to school on welfare to get a degree in social work or nonprofit management, wouldn't it?

.... and then become a major financial contributor to society.

I have a great deal of difficulty seeing the value in a constant negative. If you go to school for 16-20 years at the expense of others, and then go to work in a nonprofit sector (or even a college) then the flow of money remains in a constant negative from those who are producing to you who are consuming. Now some would say that a college professor or social worker is producing added value, but without someone growing wheat and making cars that scenario simply amounts to taking in each other's wash.

I think social workers and nonprofit workers can certainly benefit society.

but isn't that the whole point of giving back to society?

Oh, but I guess the "vicious capitalist" to whom you were replying probably thinks that "productivity" means turning a fat profit for the stock holders and screw the employees, screw the environment, screw the poor.


I'm with you.


Tansy Gold, who is usually alone

both of your answers. One person who replied assumed I was judging when I was only asking a question. That's always a problem at DU, some people just want to fight. I think if it was my road to walk I would work instead of go to school if I was on some form of support. Sure even working these days doesn't help some when wages are so low in many industries. For me I worked nights and went to college during the day, when I couldn't find a night job I worked days and went to school at night.

I would never judge anyone, that wasn't the intent of my post.

You have already said that all of these people had children. It's not easy to work 2 or 3 jobs when you have to work to pay a babysitter or even need to find a babysitter for your night shift. Doesn't do a whole lot of good to take that $8 an hour job if you are paying a babysitter $5 an hour to watch your 3 children. For a while I worked 3 jobs, all minimum wage jobs, but was not able to survive on that.

I don't think that you can really say what you would do unless you've really been there, in those exact same circumstances. And, since you don't know all the circumstances of these people you are not judging, you can't say with ANY certainty what you would do.

You can only make guesses based on facts you THINK you have. I was not able to work nights and go to college during the day. I was only able to go to college during the day (or work during the day, but you can't survive like that) and stay home with my kids at night. No babysitters work after 6 PM. And welfare wasn't exactly making huge sums of money for me. I got a whopping $372 a month in money and $396 in food stamps, with children ages 6 months to 5 years old (3 daughters). And an ex-husband who REFUSED to pay child support, even after numerous arrests for failure to pay child support. No one ever examined HIM at the grocery store. No one ever decided if HE was allowed to buy Twinkies because HE was technically not receiving public "support". Yet, his refusal to pay for the children he helped create forced us to live with every move scrutinized, judged, and validated.

I got to live with the badge of shame and the people who believed I was just a whore who couldn't stop having children while he never had to answer for anything. (I was married for a year and a half before my first child was born).

You keep saying that you are not judging, but then you said things like "If it was ME, I'd...". That's sounds a lot like judging. You don't know what circumstances these people face, yet you contend that you would do something different.

as anyone who has ever had to seek relief can tell you. As a byproduct, it is a system designed to make those who have managed to keep their heads just a bit above water (and never mind the circling sharks) feel vastly superior to those who are drowning (or being eaten alive.)

This OP is the worst of the day so far, but it is early.

People following me out to my new van back in 1999 would have labeled me an ABUSER. Especially with my FIVE kids - 7, 6, 4, 2, and 6 mos. (They wouldn't have seen my 18 yo.)

They wre usually even more confused because the 6 yo was white and all the rest of the children were African American. Hmmmmm - clearly a case of a "welfare queen" using four different sets of WIC cards! Why that hussy (me) should be shot!!

Clearly a case of abuse, right?


Well, four of the five kids (the 6 yo was homemade) were foster children - all of whom had WIC. The baby of the four I eventually adopted. The other three were brothers sent back to their dad (lord only knows for how long though . . .) who had been a foster kid himself, btw.

So - just maybe you don't always have all the facts, so don't be so quick to condemn people.

OR

Maybe they were doing pretty well and lost their jobs, and selling the car that you owe more for than you'd get if you sold it would be a pretty dumb move, too.

However, I object to the general position (not that you have taken this) that such things are none of anyone else's business. When we're talking about elected officials using private jets for shopping trips or a person with a Rolex using an EBT card, the difference is degree and the public has a right to notice.

didn't judge anyone

:thumbsup:

And all of you small town busy-bodies peering into your neighbors shopping cart because you know that they are on assistance--back the fuck away, it's none of your damned business!

Then what is the difference other than degree? Where is the accountability?

There is a lot of accountability for food stamps, but the accountability is not in the grocery store check out line.

Many of the independents have been busted for allowing cigarettes, liquor, and other ineligible goods to be purchase with EBT cards. Surely that abuse was noticed at some level which led to official action.

But this discussion isn't really about enforcement, it's about appearances, isn't it? Isn't it fairly traditional for a person who is accepting the charity of others to appear deserving. Can you imagine your grandmother showing up at a food pantry wearing fur and diamonds? It simply wouldn't have happened. But as charity has been transferred to the government, and I am not saying that it shouldn't be, people have acquired a sense of entitlement rather than gratitude.

In my grandmother's day people would have said something about it, to the face of the person in question. I don't think that's the way to go about it these days, but that doesn't mean that we can't discuss it in the impersonal setting here. One should never make a person feel embarrassed for needing charity, and one receiving charity should consider appearances as well.

Tradition has little to no value. Something traditional may be valuable, but the value is independent from the quality of tradition.

"Many of the independents have been busted for allowing cigarettes, liquor, and other ineligible goods to be purchase with EBT cards. Surely that abuse was noticed at some level which led to official action."

Yes, I suppose one could act as an informant at a check out line.

Something which we may designate as "cultural" may have value, but the value is separate from the quality of being cultural.

Though my wife loves that movie.

while driving around in one of the cash for clunker cars?

(aside from the ethics of fur and diamonds themselves, I mean)

So if your neighbor is on assistance--why is none of your damned business--which do you feel is "appropriate oversight" by the tea bagging mobs...1) to peer into their shopping carts to see if they have the audacity to buy fresh fruit, or 2) to follow legislation and see what are the qualifying rules for federal assistance and the amount of assistance is given.


Even if you answer correctly, how freaking ill are we as a nation that the uber wealthy receive the highest forms/amounts of welfare that goes completely unquestioned, yet we want to make sure that people are properly freaking hungry enough before we can even consider assisting them. We are a sick, screwed up nation.

Meanwhile, Blackwater/XE is free to operate because people want to put them on the same level as a family who is struggling to survive. Freaking sick.

I am sorry.

The recipient of the federal money in the case of Blackwater is the direct result of their connection(s) to the people who make the decision to award the contract.

Plus, a portion of the money awarded will (it is tacitly understood) make it's way back into the pocket of the person or entity who made the decision to award the federal monies.

The decision to give federal money to the recipient of food aid in no way benefits the person who made the decision nor was the decision based on the connnection of the recipient to the person who made the decision.

You're comparing apples and cats.

I was on food stamps for a while in the early 90s (FIRST Bush recession, fuck that family) even though I worked almost full-time, I still qualified. (Recent college graduate, and a $5 an hour job was still the best I could get.)

I do NOT regret it, and I am not ashamed, and I want to tell all the busybodies looking at my shopping cart back then to step the fuck off. I've been paying income taxes as a worker since I was 16, and there is no way in hell I ate enough in those years to even vaguely equal what I've paid in. And as for all the rest of what I've paid in, if I actually got a vote, I would want it to go to feeding people, not killing them.

a family (3 children) he gets public assistance and I think it's fine. Why? Because he's trying to better his situation by going back to school when there are no other jobs out there. He's not sitting on his duff waiting for something to come along. So I see nothing wrong with college students using food stamps.

or undergrad? When people apply for grants and loans for school don't they also figure in cost of living? When my wife went to medical school she had to add in rent and groceries as well as tuition and books. Is there a way your son could do that? I don't know the answer, I'm really just curious. When he applies for grants and loans for school couldn't he get the funds there instead of food stamp programs? Sure it's something he would have to pay back, my wife and I owed 86,000 after her medical school.

and have those loans paid off. And some would call that welfare.

That's how I paid for college. I went to teach in a school serving a majority of low income kids and the federal government paid off my student loans. I was thrilled and I still brag that I went to college for free. And I have said for 30+ years now that this program should be available to all helping professions. Actually I think all colleges should be tuition free.

You keep saying you aren't being judgmental but you are coming off that way. Maybe you are just a bit bitter about being so in debt for your wife's schooling? That's understandable. But instead of noticing food stamp recipients and the cars they drive, maybe you should be looking for ways the system can help you as well. :)

I live in a big city where I see lots of people using WIC and Food Stamps and there are a lot of people on AFDC and SSI. I have never, ever seen anyone using WIC or Food Stamps in the market who wasn't cheaply dressed, looking down in shame because they know people are judging them, or with "wads of cash" to buy ineligible items. I have seen small amounts of cash with WIC but it purchased expandable meals like dried beans, rice or no frills pasta. There was very little meat, because meat is expensive here, few sundries other than basic hygiene items. Not very much of anything that you would buy for yourself if you had a choice.

I know that this is one of the most basic conservative myths; that people who receive public assistance always have lots of cash stashed away and enjoy being humiliated by social workers and others who assess eligibility, and who some put in the same league as criminals who murder, rape, and abuse children like the Blackwater operatives. The Blackwater statement is a new one for me. I cannot, absolutely cannot equalize welfare use and the assumption of fraud by people who observe aid recipients through prejudiced eyes with the idea that somehow that is as bad as anything that Blackwater did, either fiscal or criminal. Is that like the escalating conservative drug use theory? Use pot and you will inevitably end up addicted to stronger stuff? Use food stamps and WIC because you can't feed your family without them and next year you will be up there killing people because they are not of your religious faith as Blackwater operatives did, frequenting underage prostitutes as Blackwater operatives did, and killing your colleagues if you feel they pose a threat to these activities as Blackwater did. Talk about moving on to stronger stuff!:wow: Welfare to utter depravity in a few short steps.

The second part of this post is about students in graduate school. If they are poor, and have no other means of support, like an extended family that will help them or a spouse who can get an outside job they should use the aid they qualify for. They have to go through the same rigorous screening program as anyone else to get welfare, and maybe a higher education will help them to avoid poverty in the future.

In order to pursue a PHD my niece who holds a full time job as an editor at a newspaper, lives at home with her parents instead of renting or buying a place of her own, accepts transportation from whomever she can get it instead of maintaining a car, uses public transportation when rides are not available and she can find public transportation that will run at night since that is when she has to schedule her classes. She also worked night shifts at her paper when there were classes and other supporting activities she could only access in the daytime. My sister took out loans for her daughter's undergraduate work, figuring that she could get lower interest through her credit union and that she didn't want my niece to be saddled by a huge amount of debt when she first started work. This is not because they are welfare snobs. They are progressive Democrats who devised this as the most workable and comfortable plan for their family.

I'm happy for the poster who is able to go to school "for fun." He must have access to funds we are not aware of. I wonder if we checked out his clothing, haircut, whether or not he wears jewelery and what kind of car he gets into at the super market we could tell? I wonder if he would feel comfortable under that type of scrutiny? I'm not uncomfortable helping people who have need, either ongoing or sudden and catastrophic, because I could be one of them some day. We all could unless we happen to be born rich and have enough money so that we can take other peoples' need for granted without having any desire whatsoever to help them out. What I am unhappy with is constantly subsidizing those rich people who will not pull their own weight when it comes to paying taxes or help anyone else in the slightest amount no matter how small a dent it makes in their life styles. They are the real parasites in this country, not the poor and middle class people who are regularly expected to do without, to pay the taxes which support the rich but which have no benefit to anyone else.

but before the box is opened in such heady nuances as "Graduate school or undergrad?" and a strata that seldom if ever truly interacts with the stigma of a society in need, so much so, that it appears peculiar and odd even on 3rd, 4th, 5th blush, etc, requiring it would seem laboratory/clinical setting in which to be followed, tracked, gazed upon, contemplated from a safe distance...

Hopefully to be better understood, addressed, or alleviated; but who can say for sure.

Odd as well it is not known by more the various educational funding and their requirements. Mine to UCLA had no provision for rent and/or food, just tuition and books. That left me to scamper between three jobs to hook the rest up. But I know how these segments are maintained,

Someone cared for someone enough to set them up with a college fund well in advance, perhaps decades, just churning away inside a safe, mid-risk, compounded interest on top of timely, deposited chunks of seed money and voila! No need for food stamps or for that matter rent if that someone closed on a condo half a block off campus, either way the path is clear. NYU here I come!!

I'm sorry, I do not understand your post:shrug: If you are telling me that people should set up college funds in advance for their children, I would agree. It's a fine idea if you have the means to do it.

My family is one generation up from abject poverty. Aside from my immediate family who came to California in the Great Depression, they lived in houses with no plumbing until well into the 1970s when my Dad helped put in pipes, electricity and indoor plumbing for them. He had to quit school at age 14 to help support his parents, brothers and sisters. He worked in construction and brought them all to California one by one so that they could live better as well. You can't make a good living working with your hands and no education now. Back home the rest of the family worked in mines and oil fields, and some lost their lives tying to earn a living. They tried to grow what food they could without much result, and they fished and hunted to try to put food on the table. Again without good result. Everyone who lived in that area had to do the same thing. I believe that they would have thought a food fund for immediate sustenance would have trumped a college fund. Most of them, and many of their children could not even finish high school. They had to work so that they could eat. College was a dream for rich people which they could not attain. So was medical care when they were sick or injured.

My sister met her husband here. His family was not dripping in money either. He had dyslexia and had to work twice as hard as most people just to read a book. He was still attending school when they were married. My sister put him through school working in banks and doing child care when they lived in another state to be near his family. They lived hand to mouth then, until he was able to finish school. After he got a teaching job she went to work for the schools as an aide. These were public schools in a semi rural states. Schools in the larger and more populous states were cutting staff not hiring. No wild and crazy income to put aside there. A lot of the time they worked in fear of losing their jobs due to budget cuts. My family does not come from a world of disposable income and easy plans for higher education. Most of my family was lucky to eat three times a day and have their children live to grow up. So while planning is nice, I can see that not all students have families with the means to do it. A lot of them depend on jobs, loans and whatever other help they can scrounge up in order to go to college in the first place. They need all of the help they can get to educate themselves to the point where they can profit from what they have learned.

If there is something I'm missing here, and I know thee must be, please let me know what it is.:woohoo:

At least that is me read, I'm the only one on my Kentucky Daddy's side of the family that *ever* went to university let alone graduated but I didn't have a grant, I had a merit-based scholarship but it worked for me and yeah...my dad cried when I turned and waved to him from the stage pigskin in hand :)

You have accomplished a great deal on your own. More than many people could. I'm happy for you and that you made your father proud.;)

My best to you in all things.:toast:

:toast: :kick:

I just recently co-signed a loan for a neighbor's kid to finish college because he's been out of work for a year and a half and the credit union he's been a member of for 18 years won't consider anyone who can't show 24 months of continuous employment for a loan.

But are there limits to that which a person ought to recognize? I have seen some pretty amazing things in this regard. I have seen parents of adult children who had no problem whatsoever with their child (and grandchild) being on public assistance even though for all intents and purposes the child never left home.

How absurd is it for the state to provide food, clothing, and shelter for a woman and child who can choose to live under parental roof and support?

Food stamps are for people who don't have a lot of money, and in many states (like mine) food stamps are only attainable by people with children or the elderly (similar to WIC, but that's a different program). Nobody on food stamps is proud to be taking them, I can promise you that.

Being poor is being poor, and it's not our place to judge who's deserving. For the record, I know some people in grad school right now who are there because they were laid off and haven't been able to find any job at all, not even McDonald's. If my taxes go to support grad students, so be it: it's still less money than the taxes I pay that go to Wall Street or the military.

my husband was in college using his GI Bill.

Sometimes I drove my neighbor's car because mine kept breaking down. Sometimes I drove the Jordanian friend's car - especially when he was back in his own country on breaks, he asked me to drive it to keep it running.

Sometimes I would buy cigarettes - you should have seen the looks I got then. Nobody in my family smoked. I hate it, I am anti-smoking. But the neighbor who loaned me her car was a smoker, she had two kids, one handicapped, and it was hard for her to get out to run errands. We would also pool resources to go to the cheaper fruit and vegetable market 20 minutes away. If one person was going, they'd go around to several neighbors and get a combined list so we didn't have to each spend the time driving out there, and more importantly so we didn't each have to spend the gas money.

I got really sick of the self-righteous grocery police making comments or glaring because I hadn't submitted my grocery list to them for approval, nor had I submitted my car for their review.

My thoughts on anyone using public assistance: They deserve the same basic decency anyone else would deserve. Living in poverty should not mean that every idiot in line after us has the right to inspect our habits, tail us to the parking lot, jump to conclusions, and make us feel like we are living in a fishbowl every time we use one of the WIC coupons. It's humiliating enough without being put in the position where we feel like we have to justify everything we do to total strangers. I've done that, you know - after feeling someone's eyes burning into the back of my head, I've actually apologized to a complete goddamn stranger for what I was buying, and explained it wasn't mine. Have you ever had to do that?

It's on a par with overweight people being glared at if they eat an ice cream cone in public - it's a chance for everyone around them who wants to play concern-troll to pass judgment.

I didn't appreciate being made to feel like everyone around me was going to go home and talk about my shopping habits. It's been a few decades since I had to deal with that, but I still feel my skin burn reading stuff like this being posted about us on a public forum so we can get a group together to discuss whether those poor folk are making good decisions or not. It confirms for me that what I thought was behind those glares was in fact very real.

Here is the deal: People on public assistance don't live how people like you live. I know that's hard to understand if you've never been there. They have more communal property and habits, because they have to in order to survive. If one person has a car that works, it will become the group car, and someone else who uses it will in return babysit for free so the car person can get to work or go to class.

What's odd is that up until this thread, I thought it was only our shopping habits that were up for public debate. I had no idea there was a concern that poor people maybe should just stop going to school after high school. I apologize if your sensibilities were hurt - or anyone else's, for that matter, because we had the nerve to use the GI benefits we earned. That should really just be a benefit for rich people.

I quit smoking three weeks ago. As it was my last vice, I promised a new level of righteousness was on the horizon. Behold!

Oh, and I agree with the feelings in your post, but people do exactly what we're talking about. Even nice people do it, they just feel differently about it.

Can you honestly tell me that when you see a Stanley Zbornack driving a sports car or a kid car that you don't think "Jeeze, could you be more cliché?"?

We're all influenced in our thinking by negative stereotypes.

Some people, however, make the decision to go beyond fleeting thoughts and take it to the next level - starting discussions to promote and reinforce those negative stereotypes, ensuring that yet more people will be influenced by them.

assumed a lot, I just asked a question. No need to respond, I don't need your preaching.

"Hey, I've been thinking, maybe some of these people on WIC coupons are welfare queens, what do you think?"

If you've never lived in poverty, I suppose you might believe there's nothing offensive in that.

judge my meaning, or assume to know me you should read my posts in this thread. I'll quote one, "We both came from pretty poor backgrounds."

My wife and I have both been poor, we came from lower, way lower middle-class families. Continue to assume I said anything about welfare queens, it really makes your posts look stupid.

The reason is that you seem genuinely clueless that your post could be offensive, and it's not my job to make it easier for you to pretend it's okay. You should know when you write stuff about the poor in that way, it pisses people off. And you should make a better effort to understand why, instead of reacting with immediate defensiveness.

When you are using food stamps or wic coupons and have dealt with people judging everything from whether you are buying appropriate groceries for a person in "your situation," or whether you are driving an appropriate car, or whether maybe college isn't really for "your sort" come back and let me know if your perception changes.

There's a world of difference between being from a low middle class family, and actually wearing the scarlet letter of letting everyone see you're on public assistance like it's an open invite for them to pry into your private affairs - because once a person plunks down that coupon, that's the message others apparently get. Our lives are no longer private; they're up for public debate just like we're running for office. We lose part of our status as private citizens; our business is your business. The size of our families becomes your business, what we drive is your business, what goes in our grocery cart and our career decisions and our education becomes your business in a way that doesn't happen to a person who is middle class. There's a post in here supposing that maybe only certain education majors are appropriate for people who are on WIC coupons - that other stuff should be off limits. Maybe not legally, but morally.

When you go to a job interview and then have to take extra time you don't have to come home and change into "poor" clothes that look appropriately thrift shoppy so that, like someone else posted, you can have the decency to put on the proper appearance of deserving the WIC coupons, come back and talk to me. That's part of the divide, understanding your place - and getting that it's considered impolite to try to look your best in public when you're actually using those stamps. It's part of our duty to go about looking pathetic when we shop so we don't offend.

I could care less what you think. You entered this discussion with a large chip on your shoulder, you actually want to compare levels of poverty, like it's a contest. What sillyness! You're wrong in one respect though, taxpayers do have a right to question whether a program is being abused.

Unfortunately many people do treat those in poverty like this: "I have the right to question everything you buy, what you wear, what you drive, where you work, which courses I think you should be taking at college, whether you should even be in college, and what kind of birth control you are using."

It's a level of scrutiny and intrusion they believe they are entitled to, simply because the other person is using a WIC coupon, and yes, it is offensive. You get to play that game because our assistance is visible.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen one of our members here who is homeless have their discussions derailed because some "concerned citizen" DEMANDS an explanation of why they have internet access. It's ridiculous because most people know libraries have that for free. But all the same, thread after thread, they're expected, by virtue of their being poor, to justify aspects of their lives to anyone at any moment. I've never seen anyone else here have to repeatedly justify their basic ability to post on a forum in order to discuss health care, housing, etc.

Those who are lower middle class and up, on the other hand, also get benefits, but because those benefits are more invisible they don't have to deal with nonstop scrutiny and judgment - and the sense of entitlement that their peers take on to police every one of your actions. If you get financial aid for college, you don't have to sign in for every class every day with a form letting the teacher and all the other students know you're getting a handout. And thus you're allowed to have a needs-based scholarship without everyone snickering and wagging their fingers because you had a beer once with dinner, or you were seen using a vending machine once.

If you get a tax credit for child care, it's between you and the government, so you don't have to plunk down the "I'm poor" card and try to look needy enough every day you drop your kids off at day care, and deal with the other parents forming gossip circles to talk about whether maybe you shouldn't have had a child, or shouldn't be working those hours, shouldn't have that job, should have found a way to work from home.

If you take a handout through the cash for clunkers program, you don't have to put a giant sticker on your car so any time you use it, people are invited to judge whether that trip is really necessary and whether you were worthy of getting a 4 thousand dollar handout from the government (which is sure the hell more than my WIC coupons combined ever cost the government). No, hell, take that handout and you're patted on the back, congratulated, treated like you're a hero for doing your part to fix the economy.

And no, I don't expect you to care about the opinion of someone who used WIC coupons - as you stand around asking for a public discussion of what people's opinions of them are. I don't expect Lou Dobbs to care what immigrants think of his white ass. That's one of the perks of privilege. Those with more power or status don't need to care what people without power think of them.

It's not just the right - but actually a social obligation for those in the upper castes to keep an eye on those in the lower castes, questioning and scrutinizing everything that can be seen and making assumptions about the rest, so we can judge if they are making good decisions. Nothing offensive about that. Gosh, it's our duty as American citizens.

But those same people are pretty quick to take offense when someone from the lower caste turns the tables and does the same to them. The initial response was pretty funny, really, telling me not to post in the thread anymore - my perspective as someone who's actually been IN that situation and understands it a little better than you doesn't have a place in your discussion about people in the WIC program.

The people in the upper castes are apparently blind to the reality that the people in the lower castes aren't the ones causing the biggest drain on the system - and they prefer to remain that way.

Instead of scrutinizing those with the least among us, go scrutinize your neighbors. Most of them fall into at least one of these categories:

unnecessary driving
unnecessary consumption
profiting off war
profiting off people being sick
supporting oil companies
working in the food industry growing or serving up GM foods, or foods filled with empty refined calories
buying products from companies that are environmentally irresponsible
living comfortably because they or their parents invested in at least one company that did those things
planning for retirement by investing their 401k in at least one company that did those things.

It's a lot easier to act self-righteous about scrutinizing and judging that lower caste, because we can feel superior and removed (especially if we tell them straight up to remove themselves from our conversations about them). It's a little harder to look in the mirror and admit that in the larger picture, we're causing more damage than they are, that our own footprint of destruction is far larger than theirs. During the primaries, I thought I might get kicked off DU for pointing out a few times that John Edwards' mansion-o-luxury might not be a shining example of a responsible way to live or good decision-making.

When we're looking in the mirror, it's easier to be smug than honest - and the more privilege we have, the more likely it is that we imagine our mirror answering back: "You're the fairest in all the land."

If it's really about upper castes supervising the lower castes, then why do so many in the upper and lower castes choose to live in gated communities under stricter rules and greater scrutiny than society in general? Answer: Because they prefer the benefits of those agreements. They have formed a society within a society in which everyone agrees to hold themselves and the other members to a higher standard than the outside world. How is this different from cultures? It isn't really. One culture succeeds and another fails because of the standards they hold and expectations they have for themselves and each other. It's not simply about the rich supervising the poor, it's about society.

Mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the noonday sun.

But when "we" do go outside the gates, "they" are fair game.



Tansy Gold, who could have moved into a gated community but refused even to look at the houses there because gates and fences are only to keep the dogs from getting into the road.

I purposely mentioned the spectrum of gated communities, because many people who don't live in Florida are unaware that they come in all income groups. I myself could not afford the one I would have liked to live in, didn't want to live in the one which I could afford which would have me, and wasn't old enough for one that I could afford and actually liked.

What gated communities actually keep out are people who won't agree to live under greater regulation, whether it has to do with maintenance, the activities of members of your household, or activities within the community.

.... that is if responding to my post as if you had written it is telling me.

Fortunately I don't have to worry about appearing too well off for EBT should I find myself using that benefit for myself or anyone else. I always dress utilitarian and I drive an inexpensive small truck.

Great post.

I think this is awesome and funding for this should be significantly increased.

eta: By "increased", I really mean expanded into other realms, such as housing and tuition, not just more food.

If you're going to be poor, you should at least be decorative.

You may be on to something.

I got a Pell grant and Federal subsidized loans. With independent and college scholarships, I paid less out of pocket than the college board plan. That means that in a way, the Pell grant was paying for me to eat expensive dining room food. I should have been given food stamps instead so I could eat Ramen like poor students are supposed to do. What is the difference in these two cases? I went to the dining hall like everyone else. Unless I told them, no one knew that my meals might be subsidized.

I'll tell you. No I have no problem with grants, loans, OR food stamps.

use or abuse. I can think of any number of circumstances where it would be appropriate and sometimes desirable for a person to go to school (even graduate school) even if it means having to use food stamps. You say you are not judging, but stressing that you used loans and paid your own way seems to indicate an element of attitude. Some people can't get enough in loans to go to school - heavens knows, if I could get enough, I would go back to grad school- and for some finishing a degree makes a lot of sense, expecially if there is no job that pays a respectable wage. I understand wanting to make sense of how our society is structured and hoping that it will work effectively to help provide a good life for everyone and to hope that no one will abuse the system, but when we don't have enough information, it is merely destructive to place a value judgement on someone or some action. I would prefer at this point, to use my energy contemplating and trying to stop the abuse by corporations and monied interests that truly are corrupting our society.

I am of the opinion that we have a duty as human beings to provide that help, be it WIC, welfare, food stamps, section 8 housing, whatever. If the price we pay for that is that a few people game the system I am OK with that.

I would far rather provide help for everyone that needs it, plus a few that don't, than prevent anyone who doesn't need it from getting it at the expense of some who do.

for themselves and their family.

I would tell them college should be free, like K-12 education, so every American really has equal opportunity to the education they want.

I would tell them they should also be given free housing while they are in school.

I would ask how I can help, maybe with day care or helping their kids with homework.

And I don't give a shit what kind of car they drive. See, I also had a nice car when I was young and finishing college. It was gifted to me by my parents. I am also old enough to remember when Reagan told this lie about the food stamp woman driving a cadillac. Even though that proved to be false I didn't care then any more than I care now. It's called being petty. Or maybe jealous. :shrug:

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Just about everyone I have spoken to on the subject had caught a medical provider's "mistake" on a bill to the health insurance company. I myself, found a double billing for ambulance services, which my insurance company had paid and which they subsequently reversed. A friend of mine caught all kinds of "errors" in his mother's medical billing in her end of life care. One of the biggest complaints of the teabaggers is that people with insurance don't give a shit about the charges as long as they are paid, and I have not found this to be true. But then I don't know too many teabaggers, and I often suspect that such people tell more about themselves than others.

sue my wife because she wouldn't write him a prescription for a racing wheel chair so his insurance would pay for it.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

...food stamps.

I don't whether or not you are in college should matter as long as the students are being honest about all income.

I don't mean to suggest that it justifies it, but there are some rules in food stamps that eligibility workers have come up with workarounds rather than asking the power to change. One of which is the fictional "separate households". It's an absurdity caused by the fact that it's utterly stupid to require a person in need of food stamps to rent their own house or apartment when they can share a family home with noneligible persons. So you have parents pretending to be landlords, and pretending to "maintain separate housekeeping" and stuff like that.

I ran into this same BS when I was trying to relocate some poor people who were living in the path of progress. I could get the grandmother an apartment, and the (granddaughter + great granddaughter) another apartment in the same building, but I couldn't get them a three bedroom house or apartment to share. Why?

I only hope that someday you are behind me when I make a purchase using a food stamp card. You see, I make a good living, carry an expensive purse, am usually dressed nicely, and I drive a two year old Prius. So, why am I paying for groceries with a food stamp card? Because I'm making the purchase for my sister, who has no car to drive to the store twelve miles away. You know, my sister who lost EVERYTHING in the Katrina disaster. My sister who has learning disabilities and emotional problems. My sister who cleans toilets and floors part-time at the local nursing home for $6.00 an hour. My sister who would be homeless if I didn't help her with rent and utilities. Yeah, that's the one. She's lucky to get the $188 per month assistance so she won't go hungry. I'm sorry that your nose is all bent out of shape because you are MORE FORTUNATE than some other people. You should be thinking: "There but for the grace of God go I".

Katrina didn't happen here in eastern Washington so that's sort of moot.

When YOUR part of the USA suffers some kind of natural disaster, I'll be sure to think of you as a "moot".

my family and my wife's family both went through Katrina and Rita. You compared situations here in eastern Washington to what happened on the Texas and Louisiana coast, nothing happened here. The college didn't close, the wheat is still being harvested, none of our industries suffered.

It's astonishing that this topic keeps coming up. There are always the people who "have $xx,xxx in student loans to pay off," but they've just casually noticed that someone driving a car that doesn't meet their "poverty" standard was getting groceries using food stamps, and they're "just curious" if people think that students should be eligible for food stamps.

You know who should be eligible for food stamps?

Hungry people who don't have enough money to buy groceries.

When will these Mothers Superior mind their own damn business in the markets, and maybe slip someone using food stamps a ten or a twenty to cover the toilet paper and laundry soap that food stamps don't cover?

It never ends. And we're the compassionate ones, right?

If I could kiss you I would. This OP and his comments have made me madder than a bee in a box. Combine that with the other asshole and his love for gated communities, (as if that is fucking germaine to the topic at hand), this thread is UGLY.

No amount of "I'm not judging, but, but, but, my wife and I have $86,000 in debt" is gonna cover up the stench of this rotting ferret corpse.

and the part that disturbs me greatest - is that people looking down their noses don't realize they're looking down their noses.

Deliver me from such "good people."

And you can kiss me anytime, Binka............................

However, your legitimate use of the EBT for your sister doesn't change the fact that there is abuse out there and that the public has the right to notice it and discuss it.

I have a 4 year degree in biology. At my last job, I had a job that required a 4 year science degree. I made $13.50/hour. My baby would have qualified for WIC. I make a little bit more now and probably wouldn't have used WIC if I just qualified, but don't look down on those who do. If someone is in a field where getting a graduate degree can help their earnings in the future or simply get a job that they don't hate, I think that it benefits their family and society for them to get assistance for a few years.

Short of any suggestion that they concealed info that would have denied them; the folks you refer to would have passed a means test of some kind and been deemed eligible, yes? We know an internist that makes $43,000+ per month minus alimony and child support for 3 families, malpractice premiums, overhead, etc...he's not on food stamps so far as I know, but boy does he need help

"We know an internist that makes $43,000+ per month minus alimony and child support for 3 families"

I've gone to the store with my Food Stamp card plenty of times in a nice SUV, once in a Prius, and too many times to count in leftyclimber's sporty little white car, but I sure as hell don't *own* those cars. The owners were either kind enough to drive me, or let me borrow the car for an hour or two. If some idiot in the checkout saw me driving away, I guess he/she might think I was "abusing," but it would just be an incredibly arrogant, judgemental, and prejudiced assumption--not the truth.

These judgemental assumptions by others are part of the reason that people like me have such a damned hard time getting by. Poor people are NEVER given the benefit of the doubt by society at large. If there are two ways to interpret something in regard to a poor person, society will inevitable gravitate toward the interpretation that paints the poor as lazy, greedy, manipulative abusers, regardless of truth. Poverty alone is a terrible adversary to battle, but mean-spirited, resentful, judgemental people in large numbers are really the knives in the back.

You should be ashamed.

I think that makes three of us now who are talking about their own experiences using WIC coupons or food stamps. I notice all three are saying they drove to the store occasionally with a decent car - and the car owner was not the recipient of the benefits.

(I'm sure the parking lot police who "catch" those using food-stamps-while-driving won't let those facts get in the way of their judgments and assumptions though. Not now, not in the future.)

are you nuts?

Aren't we given somewhat the same response when we try to police our own neighborhoods and resist criminal activity and the decline of our quality of life?

"It's none of your business..." It's none of my business why my neighbor has cars coming and going from his house all day long? WRONG. It's none of my business if a group of teenagers likes to hang out on the street and make cars and strolling people go around them? WRONG.

I suppose it's none of my business if I hear someone screaming in a neighboring house. After all, not everyone lives up to my classist WASP standards of deportment, some people are passionate. Right? WRONG. It's my business.

By your reasoning, there is no society, no community control, because the community is supposed to be blind to the actions of others and simply assume that some government official is taking care of it all.

You have to have very limited income to get them. You can, however, own assets, like cars. If people were affluent and lost their jobs, then I could see being on food stamps and driving a mini van. When you have children, you have to feed them somehow. If I lost my job tomorrow, I would be on food stamps driving a 2003 Volvo to make sure my kids get food. And possibly be back at school trying to retrain myself. There are all kinds of scenarios that you may not know about that would lead to people having children, being in school and being forced to use food assistance programs.

WIC does not have a card. They use vouchers. The eligibility for WIC is a bit less stringent. You only have to have income of less than 185% of the poverty level. You must be pregnant, nursing an infant, or have children under the age of 5 to qualify. http://www.fns.usda.gov/wic/howtoapply/eligibilityrequirements.htm

WIC was set up to make sure that women have enough to meet all the nutritional requirements of pregnancy and to support the children for the first 5 years of their life (so that they don't starve to death).

That being said...I don't have a problem with providing food to people. No one should ever starve to death. Who am I to judge what circumstances lead to a person ending up on hard times? I was once on food stamps, driving a decent car and trying to survive on welfare with 3 children while going to school. When my car broke down, I had to get to the store in my sister's brand new mini-van. I had divorced my abusive ex-husband and had to find a way to get a career since I had no way of supporting them and he didn't pay child support. From the outside, there was always someone in line who seemed to feel that my personal life had to be validated. It wasn't enough that I'd gone through the humiliating process of having Social Services validate my life, but then everyone else felt the need to validate it, too. Why do you think that is?

I am not on food stamps anymore, because I was able to go to school and "look for better employment for my family". But if I lost my job, I sure as hell wouldn't let them starve.

moves students further away from needing assistance long-term, or in the future.

It also moves their current and future children further away from the same.

It's damned hard to work to put yourself through school. And then you end up with a massive student loan debt. If you are working during the day, and going to night school, you can take too long to finish a degree. I know. I did.

I not only don't mind students getting assistance until they finish school, I'd like to see universal public pre-school through trade school or college, allowing every citizen equal opportunity to as much education as they choose to pursue.

This makes me wonder what the untimate goal of the op was. Guess I'll just wonder.

"I live in a fairly affluent town in eastern Washington, mostly college educated with a large population holding advanced degrees. The University here has a lot of graduate students. In my ten or 12 years here I've only seen 3 people using food stamps and/or WIC cards. Back in Texas it was very common to see families in line using assistance.
"

*************

He mentions only THREE folks in his town that use food assistance in 10-12 YEARS that he's lived there, like it's a problem. :wtf:

I believe it is HE that has a problem - paying off his wife's HUGE debt because he and his wife didn't use assistance - and got student loans instead.

He's just plain mad at himself and his wife - I believe for being so in debt, when they didn't need to be. $86,000 to pay off is a huge debt for most of us.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

You can get mad at the people taking offense, or you can go back and reread what you wrote and ask yourself why it got the response it did. :shrug:

all I did was ask a question and wonder how I would deal with it. I didn't judge anyone. You guys judged the shit out of me. My post contained two things: what would I do, and what would you do? That's it. The Hollier than thou bastards here did the judging, this is horseshit.

If you put yourself out there to be judged it tends to happen. Sometimes it behooves one to ask why the judgment came down as it did.

or anyone else in this thread ever commented negatively on what type of vehicle someone drove? Say a Hummer or large truck? Do you see the hypocrisy? The people who attacked me for this question have made negative comments about someone's choice of vehicle. "Don't look into my grocery cart!" Reread the entire thread, now think back at the posts you've seen here on DU discussing what people drive.

"I have reread it, you reread it
Posted by MichaelHarris


"all I did was ask a question and wonder how I would deal with it. I didn't judge anyone. You guys judged the shit out of me. My post contained two things: what would I do, and what would you do? That's it. The Hollier than thou bastards here did the judging, this is horseshit."

*******
The hell you say!

*cough*

I did not post the OP.

I did not respond to you, I responded to the OP.

'Your a prick even assuming that.'

Good English!


*******


What an ass**** you and yours think you are the cream of the crop being doctors and all.

I met with some doctor like that last week. The worst ever.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

This guy has a rash in his pants. Maybe his Doctor wife can give him some ointment.

It's amazing how much right wing bullshit has become conventional wisdom around here these past couple years.

Except it was a black woman with a Cadillac rather than a grad student with an Explorer.

Still hateful right wing bullshit, though.

You Can pretty much get almost anything in the corner store with food stamps.

From food to cigs to box juice to snacks to whatever.

I don't know the program details at all, but I've seen many people but all sorts of stuff when I lived in the Bronx.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Just sayin'.

Do you believe that students (and spouses/SOs of students) should be more financially encouraged to have abortions than non-students? Do you think that being a student should not be allowed unless one has wealthy parents (thus supporting what sounds like a pre-supposition of yours)? Do you think that students should know recipes to cook and eat their used books?


If one qualifies for WIC, or what have you, while one is in college... why does being in college suddenly "de-qualify" them? Are you saying that they shouldn't be spending money on "useless stuff" like an education, when they could be spending the money on food? Are you saying that "food assistance" shouldn't be offered to people that are obtaining an education (presumably because they will, in due time, no longer need it)... but rather should only be offered to ... those who are doing nothing to attempt to ameliorate their employment status??

What the hell kind of Right Wing Bullshit Talking point is this OP? If anything, students who qualify for food assistance programs should be even more qualified for this sort of aid than anyone else... not LESS qualified...

I declare this OP to be stupid rightwing bullshit, intentional or not.