At least 10 countries still practice whaling.

Canada
Caribbean (only 4 per year)
Faroe Islands
Greenland
Iceland
Indonesia
Japan
Norway
Russia
United States

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whaling#Modern_whaling

I post this because Japan seems to be the only country mentioned for whaling on DU.

And wouldn't all the money be better spent in education and public awareness campaigns?

:shrug:



OOOPS, I mean this guy:



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

there is no way he will go after Russia.

"And wouldn't all the money be better spent in education and public awareness campaigns?"

I think so, but where is the fame in that?

And a leaner, faster vessel.

I watch that show just to see what the SNAFUs are gonna be in each episode.

Do you think that's deliberate editing?

:shrug:

are the only nations left commercially whaling.

eta: Why is Japan the country mentioned for whaling on DU? Why not Iceland?

They maim hundreds per season in the name of "research" and then pack up all of the whale meat and SELL it in the open market for millions of dollars.

What other evidence is needed?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7767716.stm

But posters ignore Norway and Iceland, who openly admit to commercial whaling, in favor of attacking Japan. Curious.

Whaling is not illegal for every country, just like owning nukes is not illegal for every country. Some countries are allowed to own nukes, such as the U.S. and Israel, and some countries are allowed to hunt whales, such as Japan and Norway.

This is why Israel is allowed to have nukes, they never signed the anti-nuke treaty.

Your cite does not support the statement made on the title line.

Norway is legally engaged in commercial whaling. Japan legally conducts a very useful scientific research program.
And the US engages in legal subsistence whale harvests.

Other countries are also engaged in legal whaling, but it is also true that many countries totally ignore illegal whaling and/or the smuggling of illegal whale meat. In fact only one country ever seems to engage in any activity directed towards enforcement against illegal activity. That just happens to be Japan! They have, in years past, made real efforts at stopping illegal smuggling of whale meat into Japan from Russia and Korea, for example.

do you know about their research program? We don't seem to hear about that. :shrug:

And I can only speculate as to why poeple on DU are only talking about Japan's whaling industry. Perhaps it's because a very popular show is on cable showing japanese whalers in action?

Has the show shown whale meat being sold in Japan without mentioning Iceland and Norway? If so, the viewers are being lied to.

whale meat being processed and canned for the open market. It CLEARLY shows that.

You just said you never watched the show, right?

"You just said you never watched the show, right?"

Which is why I am asking, as opposed to telling.

The whale is transfered right in the middle of the ocean to the ship that processes the whale meat. You can SEE the cannery. You can SEE the cans after they process them.

It's clearly documented.

but they sell the results of the "science"--the whale products--on the open market.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7767716.stm

I am just trying to bring this fact to people's attention.

I am against ANY whaling anywhere, just so you know.



Please do not tell me that they don't sell this whale meat and they keep it all for "research". And you still haven't adressed the research aspect of all of this.

If you have evidence, my mind is open.

But even if they eat most of it, they would be no different than Norway, Iceland, Russia, or the U.S.

This tread is the first thread I have seen which mentions these countries whaling, but I have seen many threads which demonize Japan.

"And you still haven't adressed the research aspect of all of this."

What about it?

That was what I meant.

the fact that other countries hunt whales, some for commercial purposes.

This is from a Japanese Whaling Commission newsletter I found on the JWC's website:

Under the rules of the International Convention for the Regulation of Whaling (ICRW) all whales taken through research programs must be processed to the greatest extent practicable. Japan processes the whale meat and sells it on the market. The funding obtained goes towards financing the following year’s research programs.

http://www.whaling.jp/english/news/jwa_news_13.pdf

The article in question's on the last page.

I am glad the meat is not wasted.

The ICRW treaty is also available online. The referenced section is Article VIII, which says:


A couple of obvious things to note from the treaty wording are that the Japanese are required to sell the meat, and also that the legality of research whaling is not a "loophole", as some claim, but instead was considered an absolute essential item in the treaty.

It should also be noted that sale of whale meat does not generate even enough money to fully support the research project, which gets a subsidy from the Japanese government.

The fact that Japan imports whale meat from Iceland and Norway does not mean that they don't have commercially available whale meat from their own whaling fleets.



This excerpt from the article you posted implies that Japan already has it's own market for whale meat but that it doesn't include fin meat because Japan's own fleets haven't been hunting fin whales.

The article does not back up your assertion that whale meat in Japan only comes from Norway and Iceland

Edit: I didn't read through the entire thread and I see now that someone else posted a link regarding Japan's sale of whale meat and you have already backed away from your previous assertion.

The Japanese are the most rapatous over fishers
in the world and have fished out almost every
coastal fishery in the Pacific Coastal basin.
they are now pillaging India's east coast and the
coast of Chile among others.

Such as the Makah tribe in Washington.

But even if only one state in the U.S. practiced whaling, the U.S. would still be a whaling country.

Is it right? No...not in my mind.

for something at least nine other countries do, including the U.S.

Norway and Iceland openly sell whale meat and no here ever seems to mention this fact.

doesn't matter what it is.

A very large portion of media consumed in the U.S. comes from Japan, such as anime, movies, and video games.

Jap-haters will always hate Japan no matter what

I don't hate Japan or Japanese people.

I detest commerical whaling. :shrug:

This thread has been unreced. If the main concern was whaling, this thread would be liked, but if the main concern is Japan, then this thread would be unliked.

Many DUers excuse the Japanese camps the U.S. built during WWII and now people are upset I mentioned Japan is not the only country which hunts whales.

Very fishy. (pun intended)

Does that mean they hate the US?

If you want a thread about Norway whaling, you should post some (like you have, so I guess DU IS discussing it).

If I had to mention every country with the same issues as the one I am talking about it might take me awhile every time I post to compile them.

Japan gets the most mention because they are higher profile due to the tv show, if the SS goes after norway next season we will be talking more about them the Japanese.

Just seems to be basic stuff...

eta: This thread is about Norway, as well as other countries, so I am already of top of that.

Unfortunately, this thread has caused some confusion, but it has also educated, I myself have learned a thing or two from my fellow DUers on this thread.

The show is about Japanese whaling. :shrug:

I don't recall ( and I may be wrong ) DU talking much about any whaling practices up until recently.

which takes place in Antarctica. It isn't a show to demonize Japan as a whole country or its people. It is about fighting against Japan's commercial whaling industry which is hunting whales, some endangered, in a whale sanctuary in Antarctica. It is one specific campaign.

The Sea Shepherd Conservation Society is an international group who have many campaigns worldwide including campaigns to save sharks, seals, dolphins, etc. They are in many different countries around the world. "Whale Wars" is a show just about one of them.

I hope this helps a little bit :)

about whaling in other countries.

This tread has even lost recs, which means someone is unhappy that I pointed out countries other than Japan hunt whales.

whaling practices of any sort? I honestly do not recall when we've had all of these discussions.

Are you just refusing to admit that there is popular show on cable that outlines Japanese whaling? That it's becoming an issue now that people have seen it?

Did you look at my link that shows that the Sea Sheps have campaigns for Norway and Iceland as well?

Seems like the main concern is the TV show, as opposed to whale hunting.

Why else would someone unrec the OP? If someone's concern was with whaling, a thread pointing out whaling around the world would not cause displeasure.

"Did you look at my link that shows that the Sea Sheps have campaigns for Norway and Iceland as well?"

I read the article condemning whaling in Norway. I did not notice any mention of direct action towards that country. I would be surprised to see them come after U.S. or Russian ships. But my OP is really about increasing awareness about Japan not being the only whaling country, not the actions of SS.

this thread. :shrug:

I am not really concerned about the TV show at all, I've been an anti-whaler beliver since the mid 70's.

I think it's GREAT that this show has brought commerical whaling to the masses, it shows what a clearly deplorable practice it is. I'm glad that people are talking about it!

I just wanted to be honest about why DU'ers are talking about Japanese whaling, the show is popular, people are talking about it. Awareness is increasing. Just like anywhere else, we discuss the things that are popular, on the news, on TV...etc.

Kudos to you for trying to help people understand who whales and who dosen't. I just don't want to try and make this something it isn't. This isn't anti-Japanese sentiment.

I read the article condemning whaling in Norway. I did not notice any mention of direct action towards that country. I would be surprised to see them come after U.S. or Russian ships

If you investigate the SS site further, you will see that the Japanese campaign is not the only one they participate in. Who knows, maybe next season we'll get to see them go after Iceland or Norway, and then you know... we'll be talking about it then too!

because it's a difficult issue as neither has signed on to the IWC. They've both objected (last I checked) and therefore aren't held to the same rules on whaling. SSCS would have a very hard time interfering with their hunts outright without getting into severe trouble.

Which is why the preferable method is just to sink the ships in harbor. Pretty simple, really.

is an integral part of the culture, and every last bit of the whale is used and shared with the entire community. When the crews bring in the annual whale, there is community-wide celebration. There is nothing commercial about it -- it's the traditional food of the Inupiat people and I personally don't begrudge them that, especially with the price of "store" food being so extremely high in those communities.

demonized.

As you are well aware I am sure resources are limited...and Japan is the primary murderer of whales in the Antarctic Sanctuary...so that is the current focus of their most intense anti-whaling campaign...

However if you look at their history and their current efforts you will see they have a wide range of initiatives all around the world...from the Galapagos to Canada...Japan...South Africa etc...

It's the old canard that says if don't attack a problem everywhere then it isn't fair to attack it anywhere. As soon as they cripple the Japanese whaling industry they will focus their physical intervention on the other major commercial whaling countries...

In an interview with Capt Watson he stated that this may be achieved in two years time.

The whales they hunt (bowheads), while not currently endangered they are a conservation dependent species. Inuits currently take an average of 50 Bowheads per year which is not sustainable...

They also want to begin killng Gray whales again, despite their critically endangered status..

Hunting done by Inuits in Canada is done for commercial purposes and should be stopped as well...

The Bowhead whale is not actually endangered, but it is listed on the "Endangered Species List". And to claim that the harvest by Eskimo (who are not Inuit, but Inupiat and Yupik) whalers is not sustainable suggests that you cannot be relied upon for valid information. The IWC claimed in the 1970's that the Bowhead population could be as low as 600; the Eskimos protested and proved that there were at least 3,000. Their quotas have been based on population data for 30 years now, and the current estimates are over 15,000. The Bowhead population has been growing by a constant 3 to 4 percent per annum.

Your statements about Gray whales are equally absurd. The Eastern Pacific Gray whale population was removed from the endangered species list more than a decade ago. It peaked earlier in this decade, and due to over population was suffering from starvation (starved whales were washing up on beaches all along the US west coast).

Canadian Inuit do not commercially hunt whales.

But your first statement is the most seriously flawed. The idea that your cultural values dominate over either Japanese or Eskimo cultural values is racism.

Japanese, Inuit or whoever...

At some point cultural reasons are no longer good enough justification. It has nothing to do with cultural traditions, but the immoral practice of killing and torturing sentient creatures for transient or ephemeral reasons.

Some cultures practice genital mutilation of their female children...I'm assuming you don't approve of that. How about stoning women for adultery? There is a line to be drawn when a culture's traditions can no longer be accepted as valid...I'm sure you would agree the example I have cited fall in that category...and I firmly believe whale hunting does as well.

As to the Grey whale...you are correct in that the worlwide population is not endangered...however the quota of gray whales was reduced to zero over concerns of sustainability for the specific sub-population.

As to whales dying from overpopulation...if it is occurring becuase of unsustainable activities by humans, that root cause should be corrected. If it is not due to human activity, then that is nature and should be left to run its course...

So just how is the harvest of whales immoral in other cultures, but the harvest of many hundred times more pigs is okay in your culture.

The point is that it is not immoral to harvest animals for food. Whales are no more or less sentient that cattle. They are far less intelligent than pigs. Your claim that it is for "transient or ephemeral" is abject ignorance at best. (The whaling culture of the Inupiat people here on the North Slope, which I see on a daily basis, has existed for well over 1000 years. Whaling is literally part of the fabric of their life. And the Japanese are not different.)


I cannot argue with such utter stupidity. If you do not see the difference, there is probably little you can learn about anything that you didn't see at age 8.


Again, you are absolutely wrong. As I noted, the Eastern Pacific Gray Whale (as opposed to the Western Pacific Gray Whale) has been removed from the Endangered Species List, and in fact has reached the limit of its food supply. That is a specific sub-species, it is the one that migrates into the Bering Sea and from there into the Arctic Ocean. It is the one the Makah would hunt, it is the one the Eskimos would hunt, and it is the one that the Russians hunt.


If you don't have a clue, either get one or cease making things up to post here.

Yes, the overpopulation of Gray whales is due the unsustainable activities of humans. They are not harvesting Gray whales, and should be. Not doing so is unsustainable!

Is breathtaking. I don't give a flying fuck whether hunting whales is considered immoral in other cultures or not. And it makes no difference to me in that sense, whether they are considered endangered or not. It is immoral...period...

Whale can never, even at a peak harvest, provide a significant portion of the diet of the vast majority of countries where it is practiced...it is simply unnecessary to hunt them in order to provide sustenance...and therefore should stop...if there is overpopulation of a species, the conditions that is reducing their food supply needs to be addressed...slaughtering whales is not a solution to that problem...

Personally I do not eat meat so your relativistic arguments will not work on me...

I am equally opposed to the unsustainable factory farming that takes place ...it is cruel, unhealthy for humans, and bad for the environment...

Feel free to respond if you wish...this will be my last post on the subject as I believe I have made my position clear...and I am leaving for the beach...where I will enjoy a meat free weekend frolicking in the waves...and watching whales...

Speaking of arrogance! Your position that eating animals is immoral is absurd. And that is why you cannot support your opinion with logic or facts.

Why would it not be right? Do you know anything about it?

Are you a vegan? Do you eat meat or use animal products?

Those are wonderful photos at your site. :)

but I am vegan and I do not eat meat or use animal products to the extent that I can. And I do know something about whaling.

Am I allowed to have my own opinion now, or I have I not met your criteria? Moreover, why do you think that being vegan has some bearing on whether or not someone has an opinion on whaling?

If you are not a vegan, then complaining about the meat that someone else chooses to eat is hypocritical to the point of absurdity.

Note, however, that while being vegan certainly entitles you to your own opinion (and your own eating habits), it does not entitle you to a separate set of facts. We still do have to deal with valid facts, and making up wild accusations against whalers is not appropriate. I have not seen you (yewberry) do that, but several posters have, and Paul Watson is literally famous for stating that distortions and outright lies are useful to his cause.

With Texasgal my point is simple. If you do not object to eating beef, pork or chicken (the most popular meats in the US), then it is inappropriate to complain that Japanese and Eskimo people like to eat whale meat. But even then, we don't see Arabs complaining that others eat pork, Hindus complaining that other eat beef, Japanese complaining that others eat caribou/reindeer; so just what makes it appropriate that a culture which eats beef should complain that another eats whale?

trailer and info here:
http://www.thecovemovie.com/

Even if you are fine with the way the Japanese treat dolphins, the documentary is still pretty interesting.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

DIIINNNNNNNNNER!

Awww, Ma! I told you, this is important stuff I'm doing here.

I don't care what you're doing, TAKE OFF THE CAPE AND GOGGLES AND COME TO DINNER. NOW!!

That what Japan does is the same as what the Inuits and Eskimos do is like having a conversation with the dining room table. I'm just not interested in doing it.

Why do ignore these countries?

Why does pointing out countries other than Japan hunt whales displease you?

"That what Japan does is the same as what the Inuits and Eskimos do is like having a conversation with the dining room table. I'm just not interested in doing it."

The question then is just who is this "dining room table"?

There isn't really any significant difference between traditional Japanese whaling and traditional Eskimo whaling.

I would note too that stating something like "Inuits and Eskimos" pretty much indicates no knowledge. Inuit (which is plural) people are Eskimos.

I curse Canada (well, for the seal hunt, not whaling really), the Faroes, Iceland and Norway for their whaling practices all the time. Not just Japan. The Japanese hunt gets a lot more publicity, obviously because of how heinous it is (they actually wanted to take 50 humpbacks a couple years ago. sweet, huh?).

On top of that, I've been EQUALLY supportive of scuttling whaling vessels regardless of the country they sail from.

For example, this one's Norwegian. See how fantastic it looks?

"On top of that, I've been EQUALLY supportive of scuttling whaling vessels regardless of the country they sail from."

Not a good idea. Japan is a pacifist country, the U.S. and Russia are not. If those SS members go after Russian ships, who knows how Russia would respond. I don't think Pres. Obama would blow them up, but he may have them arrested if they tried that on U.S. ships.

By "SS members" do you mean Sea Shepherd members? Also, I don't see that too many activists (affiliated with Sea Shepherd or otherwise) are really looking to go after indigenous peoples doing small scale whaling (like Russia and the US). As for their ships, I don't think either group has any "ship" much larger than a 50 hp Boston Whaler outboard.

No idea what you're talking about with the Obama blowing somebody/something up. Totally lost me there.

Yes.

Also, I don't see that too many activists (affiliated with Sea Shepherd or otherwise) are really looking to go after indigenous peoples doing small scale whaling (like Russia and the US).

The following post disagrees with you. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6374218&mesg_id=6377657 But I don't really know.

Besides, I thought the life of the whale was the important thing here, not the region the person killing the whale happens to be in.

If SS did go after the U.S. or Russia, the response may not be as nice as the Japanese response. This is what I was saying.

As for their ships, I don't think either group has any "ship" much larger than a 50 hp Boston Whaler outboard.

Semantics. Boat, ship, you know what I mean.

No idea what you're talking about with the Obama blowing somebody/something up. Totally lost me there.

I said Pres. Obama may have the SS arrested if they interfered with sea vehicles owned by U.S. citizens.

I'm just tired of your attempts at horseshit arguments.

The whales are the important issue here. So, there's one "policing force" out there. Do they go after the Inuit who have a certain "right" to take a small number of whales or do they go after a large scale, illegal whaling expedition in a whale sanctuary? Shit, I wish I could figure that one out.

You were making an attempt to draw a parallel between the Japanese whaling ships and the "ships" that whalers in the US and Russia use. Semantics, my ass. Comparing the Nisshun Maru to what is little more than a 3 person kayak is idiotic.

Last I checked, having Obama "blow them up" and have someone arrested is a pretty damn big difference, but again, we're back to someone "attacking" an Inuit boat. More than likely Obama's response would be, "what the fuck are you talking about?"

I went back and pulled the quote for you, but added bold to help to help clear confusion.

"I don't think Pres. Obama would blow them up, but he may have them arrested if they tried that on U.S. ships."

So as you can see, I never said Pres. Obama was going to blow anyone up, I said some arrests may be made.

"You were making an attempt to draw a parallel between the Japanese whaling ships and the "ships" that whalers in the US and Russia use. Semantics, my ass.

Ship and boat both mean water vehicle to me, this is what I was trying to say. I am not sure what your problem is, but I think there is a miscommunication between us.

Comparing the Nisshun Maru to what is little more than a 3 person kayak is idiotic."

U.S. citizens kill over 40 whales a year, pretty good for 3 person kayak.

"Do they go after the Inuit who have a certain "right" to take a small number of whales or do they go after a large scale, illegal whaling expedition in a whale sanctuary?"

Are you playing a joke on me? I said going after the U.S. and Russia was a bad idea, and this is your reply. The two don't seem to go together.

"I'm just tired of your attempts at horseshit arguments."

What do you think my argument is? I see more agreement than disagreement in our posts.

your hangover isn't too painful.

Good to know, we can try another day.

Ahem. You seem to have nothing but bovine excrement, so where do you get off complaining that his is equine?


Paul Watson is not a "policing force". He's a criminal. And please do note that the Japanese research whaling is absolutely a legal operation in every sense of the term. It is clearly authorized by the intent if the ICRW treaty.


Your comment is vastly ignorant.

Just to begin with, nobody in the Arctic hunts whales in a 3 person kayak, or even close. Moreover, the Nisshun Maru is a processing ship and as such does not even come close to the shore based processing facilities used in the Arctic! (In Barrow, for the fall hunt, the "fleecing deck" is an old 3000 foot runway. They typically process three Bowhead whales at a time, but have done as many a 7 at once.)

There in fact are differences in the boats used by the Japanse to hunt whales and the power boats typically used in the Arctic. Boats used by the Japanese are not shore based, and they must operate in significant seas and winds. Boats used in the Arctic are shore based and do not venture out in high winds and/or seas. But there simply is nothing as small as a 50 hp outboard used in the open ocean in US Arctic waters.

(And don't be confused by the use of umiaq skin boats for hunting from the ice in the spring. Open leads in the ice cannot be hunted with large power boats, and an umiaq is the superior technology.)


Your perception of Watson's idiocy is amusing. He isn't stupid enough to try sinking a whaling boat in the Arctic Ocean off of either Russia or the US. He would not survive, and Obama's response (as would be that of anyone who is reasonable) would be along the lines of, "Watson's gone? Good."

I agree completely with flvegan here. Activists like Sea Shepherd largely leave subsistence hunters alone. They're subsistence hunters, and others are commercial hunters.

The Sea Shepherd wouldn't "go after" Russia or the US because those are subsistence hunters, so speculating about some kind of international incident is completely silly. Geez, how many times should I explain that?

So no, you don't really know.

Supporting clearly illegal activities is a disgusting concept. Your hands are dirty.


Paul Watson and the SSCS are criminals. The SSCS is banned in several countries (under criminal indictment or previously convicted), Watson and his colleagues are not allowed into IWC functions. Watson uses the title "Captain", but is not actually certified by any authority as a ship's captain; and watching any episode of the TV show should be a good indication of why that is.

Watson mounted a vicious race based attack on the Makah Indians of Washington state. That was done primarily because it was easy and would attract a lot of dollars. He hasn't got the brass to try the same thing with Eskimos in the Arctic Ocean!

BTW, trust that your concept of whaling in the Arctic (50 hp Boston Whaler outboard) is just as silly as your other comments are invalid.

Here's why Sea Shepherd isn't going after subsistence whalers in Russia:



Hmmm, subsistence hunters. For real.


Here's why Sea Shepherd isn't going after subsistence whalers in the US:



Hmmm, subsistence hunters. For real.


Here's why Sea Shepherd is going after Japanese whalers:


Hmmm, corporate and government-funded commercial hunters.

See the difference?

Only because the selected images do not represent a valid overall perception of whaling in the Arctic.

The images of Russian whaling are probably a good indiction for that location. But it is also true that poaching and smuggling of illegal whale meat is relatively high in Russia. While they may not be using high tech methods, they are 1) signficant and 2) would be a much more productive target if Watson actually wanted accomplish something other than fund raising.

The images of Alaska do not provide an accurate comparison. Skin boats (an Umiaq is shown) are used in the spring to hunt whales from the ice in open leads. In those circumstances an umiaq is vastly superior to any other boat, and is used to increase productivity. It would be impossible to hunt with a large power boat; and while using small power boats is possible they also scare off whales, which move off under the ice. (In any case, Watson couldn't attack an umiaq if he wanted to! Or, not until he either learns to survive on the Arctic icepack or he invests in a large icebreaker.)

Here are pictures from a typical fall whaling operation in Barrow Alaska:

Why does Japan's 'whale research' require 25,000 dead whales over a period of 20 years. There should be nothing left to know by now.

Your figures are off by 3 times.

Japan has provided detailed reasons for the quotas they seek, in the project proposals that are submitted each year for preapproval by the International Whaling Commission Scientific Committee. The Scientific Committee has pre-approved the proposals, and has peer reviewed research reports.

Note that while the main body of the IWC is political, the Scientific Committee is made up of an international group of about 200 whale biologists. They have agreed that lethel methods of research are appropriate, and that the quotas are required for accuracy.

Indeed, taking 1000 per year from a population that is estimated to be 600,000 is not particularly high. It most certainly is not a threat to the survival of the species.

:hide:

That's what I'd like to know. If no one ate whale or used whale by-products, there'd be no profit in whaling.

What does that tell one about that new DU Feature? :shrug: