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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 04:26 PM
Original message
More than 800 gun buyers on terrorist list - NRA counters some suspects might be innocent
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31494385/ns/us_news-security/

updated 5:26 p.m. CT, Mon., June 22, 2009

WASHINGTON - More than 800 gun purchases were approved after background checks in the last five years even though the buyers' names were on the government's terrorist watch list, investigators said Monday.

Being on the watch list is not among the nine factors, such as a felony conviction, that disqualify someone from buying a gun under federal law. More than 900 background checks between February 2004 and February 2009 turned up names on the watch list, and all but 98 were allowed to go through.

The watch list — maintained by the FBI and used by federal, state and local law enforcement agencies — is meant to identify known or suspected terrorists. However, the list has drawn criticism over the years for mistakes that have led to questioning and searches of innocent people. snip

The top lobbyist for the National Rifle Association said the terrorist watch list has names of people who should not be on the list.

"Law-abiding Americans should not be treated like terrorists," the NRA's Chris Cox said. "To deny law-abiding people due process and their Second Amendment rights based on a secret list is not how we do things in America."




Why do I suspect there are some NRA members on that list?
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
1. We'll have to change that!
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
2. NRA members? We're ALL on that damned list.
Bloody about time a group with clout got involved with that paranoid piece of crap. I'm thrilled to know the NRA is challenging it.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. They weren't saying too much when this was going on during the Bush administration
I find it odd that all of a sudden now it starts bothering them.

Don
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Lautenberg introduced this bill a month ago..
He hadn't tried it in the previous session-

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s111-1317

If Rep McCarthy or Sen Feinstein had introduced this bill then, I'm sure the NRA would have been objecting to it then, too.
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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Lautenburg attempted to introduce the same legislation in the previous session.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s110-1237

DiFi was one of the 12 cosponsors.

McCarthy is a cosponsor of the House version...

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-2159

She states quite clearly her support for the legislation...



No Fly? Then, No Buy

Today, it is easier to purchase a gun than to board an airplane. Today, any person whose name appears on the no fly list can purchase any type of firearm, including military-style assault weapons, provided that he is not a felon, drug addict, or a domestic abuser.


Since 9-11, we have passed many laws to improve homeland security. Yet, this loophole remains open. If you are denied the chance to board an airplane because of suspected ties to terrorists, then you also should be denied the opportunity to purchase a gun.


HR 2401, the “No Fly, No Buy” Act. This bill would add people who are listed on the no fly list to the current groups of people who cannot purchase or obtain a gun.


Congresswoman McCarthy realizes that not every person on the no fly list is a terrorist. However, the no fly list is the only list of potential terrorists with a clearly stated policy for correcting erroneous information. If the only reason for denying a gun purchase is the appearance of the name on the no fly list, the denied gun purchaser could provide correct information. Once his or her name is removed from the no fly list, that individual could make a legal gun purchase. An otherwise law-abiding American would want his or her name off the no fly list. A terrorist in our midst would not draw attention to him or herself.


http://carolynmccarthy.house.gov/index.cfm?sectionid=253§iontree=18,253



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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Odd, I must've flubbed up the search..
Edited on Thu Aug-27-09 09:22 PM by X_Digger
I only found his perennial 'gun show loophole' bill.

But the NRA was against SB1237 last year, too..
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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Click on the "Related Legislation" link
Edited on Thu Aug-27-09 09:30 PM by -..__...
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s111-1317&tab=related

Personally... I seldom (if ever),use GovTrack to research bills, legislation, the Congressional Record, roll call votes, etc.

http://thomas.loc.gov is a outstanding research tool for everything Congress.

Unfortunately... due to the manner in which the pages are refreshed, it's frustrating to post/provide a link for any cite.

There was (is), a workaround for that problem, but I'll be damned if I can remember it. :(
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-28-09 04:44 AM
Response to Reply #5
22. You know what? I don't care. I want that list shredded.
And if the NRA can get it done, fine by me.
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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
21. Sen. Kennedy Flagged by No-Fly List
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17073-2004Aug19.html

Sen. Kennedy Flagged by No-Fly List

By Sara Kehaulani Goo
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, August 20, 2004; Page A01

U.S. Sen. Edward M. "Ted" Kennedy said yesterday that he was stopped and questioned at airports on the East Coast five times in March because his name appeared on the government's secret "no-fly" list.
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zbdent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-28-09 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. but Repugs said that it wasn't in error ...
they will go to their grave equating TK with terrorists ...
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scrinmaster Donating Member (563 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
3. OK, so the "No fly list" is an unconscionable infringement on our liberties,
but this is just a reasonable step in the war on terror. Gotcha.

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Taitertots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
4. Watch out, Cat Stevens is going to buy a Gun
The list is over 700,000 people.
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
6. Lack of due process
Bush era terra secret lists that have no public oversight should _not_ be used to deprive people of rights, thankaverramuch.

Lautenberg can take a long walk off a short pier. 'Terror Gap' my ass.
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tularetom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
7. When the NRA defends a gun owner with an Islamic sounding name I'll believe they're serious
I agree with their stance on this matter but somehow I suspect their outrage over the list is limited to the various Billy Bobs and Bubbas who might happen to be on it.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. Oops... wrong spot.
Edited on Thu Aug-27-09 09:28 PM by Statistical
oops wrong spot.

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armyowalgreens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-28-09 04:45 AM
Response to Reply #7
23. You don't know what you are talking about.
So please stop.
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tularetom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-28-09 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #23
28. I was a member of the NRA when you were still shitting yellow
and watched it change from what it was to what it is. And the change sucked.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
8. Once anyone is arbitrarily placed on the terrorist list by the czar, they should be prohibited from
exercising any pre-existing or inalienable right in fact they should become a non-person.

That of course would be a totalitarian government but that might appeal to some who believe government is the solution to all societies problems.

The progressive, liberal position should be to support all such rights or none at all.

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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
9. Of course there are innocent people on the watch list.
More innocent people than actual threats, I'll betcha.
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zbdent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
11. now that's a stunning endorsement ... "SOME may be innocent" ...
great line ... "Law-abiding Americans should not be treated like terrorists,"

where was that "thinking" when it was a lefty writing a LTTE criticizing Bush?
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. The ACLU and the NRA: Compatible Bedfellows

2003-
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2003/08/04/798/71549

Backlash against the Patriot legislation has created a fantasyland of political concord: Gun Owners of America nodding in agreement with the American Library Association and the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), with the Green Party happily concurring. Organizations across the political spectrum, from village councils to national advocacy groups, are going on record opposing this newest potential assault on Americans’ civil liberties.


2007-
http://freeamerican.wordpress.com/2007/05/09/aclu-and-nra-fight-white-house-over-unconstitutional-gun-bill/

While this particular article is grossly disingenuous in pigeonholing the NRA into some kind of gun toting, nutjob outfit, at least they are on the correct side of the issue. Some people need to remember the NRA exists almost exclusively as an organization to protect the second amendment. As such, you probably won’t find the NRA involved in other civil rights issues. The very title of the story, suggesting the NRA and ACLU are “opposite” organizations, doesn’t make any sense. The NRA aims at protecting the right to bear arms. The ACLU aims to defend all civil rights. There is no contradiction here. Anyway, I have completely veered off topic. Rant over.


The NRA has been against many of the provisions of the patriot act (those that could be abused to deprive folks of their rights protected by the second amendment.) The "SOME" statement above is accurate- we can speculate, but since nobody outside of certain law enforcement / DOJ officials have access to the list, we only know when someone's on it when they get detained and raise a stink when the mistake is realized.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
15. Do you really think there are 1 million terrorists in the US?
Edited on Thu Aug-27-09 09:29 PM by Statistical
Really?

Or maybe the terra list is a horribly useful program that once you are put on it there is no way to get off of it.

Hell it took an act of a Congressman to get a FUCKING PILOT off the list after the airline advised he had 90 days to get off the "magic list" or lose his job (he couldn't pilot the airrcraft).

If there are 1 million+ terrorist in the US then we got bigger problems then guns.
If there are NOT 1 million+ terrorists then 99%+ of the people would have their civil rights taken away without due process.

You ok with that?

We are either a nation of rule of law or we are not. It is like torture there is no middle ground.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Progression of terra (for those who are interested)
Sep 2001 - 16 names
Nov 2001 - 408 names
Dec 2001 - 1000+ names
Mar 2006 - 44,000+ names
Apr 2007 - 700,000+ names
Apr 2008 - "substantially over one million" names
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OneTenthofOnePercent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-28-09 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #18
26. What happened between Mar 2006 and Apr 2007 to grow the list ???
that's a rediculous jump from 3/08 to 4/07 - WOW
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-28-09 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. What worse than the sheer numbers is the govt won't even admit if you are on it.
Say you get denied boarding and the airlines says it is because you are 'no fly'.

There is no govt agency you can go to confirm this. Even with a lawyer and a lawsuit the govt will claim the names on the list are national security.

So are you really on the list?
Did the airline make a mistake?
Is the info on the list invalid?
Is it simply a close match to a real terrorist?

No way to ever know because the govt will never show you the entry on the list or even confirm you are on the list.

Now apply that to firearms.

"Sorry 0.1% you NICS (I am assuming 'no fly' would be added to NICS to avoid needing to check 2 databases) check has been denied. I can't tell you why or what to do to fix it but you can never buy a firearm"
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
19. uh, how many is 'some' ?
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
20. The late Ted Kennedy was on the terror watch list.
You can't say accidentally because according to Dept of Homeland Security there are no incorrect entries in the terror watch list.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/20/national/20flight.html

Of course if you believe that I have a bridge to sell you.


So the govt can make secret list that only the govt can see.
The govt can add you to the secret list without due process.
The govt can then suspend your civil liberties based on the secret list once again without due process.
The secret list can grow exponentially year after year with no accountability and end in sight.

Nobody sees a problem with that? Just because the NRA opposes it then it must be bad?
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-28-09 06:34 AM
Response to Original message
25. According to some on DU all gun owners are gonna kill someone soon
Cause guns just make you nuts and turn you into a killer. Worse than being a christian even :rofl:
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