It burns me up to see Gov't buildings refuse to fly the flag half-mast for Ted

The local police of Worthington, Ohio (suburb of Columbus) have their flag flying full mast today, as is one of the car dealerships just down the road (Jack Maxton Chevrolet).

Do these people understand that they are just putting their petty hate on display with such a deliberate lack of respect?

Can a gov't entity like a police force get in trouble for something like this?

(Sorry if you do not recognize me ;I know I start new threads very rarely)

Even the giant freeper flag along the 5 is at half-mast in Redding.

You should call them up and complain.

A call to complain is absolutely in order here.

If they have their hate on for liberals enough to not fly the flag half-mast, I would not put harassing a citizen who dared complain out of their realm of capabilities.

and in the case of the dealership, if they give you the wrong answer, you can tell them that their lack of respect will figure into your future car needs as well as those of your family and friends and possibly every one else you run into in the next year. :)

So be it.

But the cops?

Not cool, and personally I am a bit afraid to put myself on their radar over politics.

What reason would a government entity not follow the orders of the President when everyone knows a big political figure has died?

Forgot?

Your local cops are free to be dickheads.

Sucks that they are allowed to make such an obnoxious display.

it does NOT suck that the federal executive branch has no power over state and local executive branch in this area.

it's just as important a seperation of power as the legislative, judicial and executive branch seperations, the seperationb between federal govt. and local govt.

it's part of being a democratic republic. the federal govt. has its powers and duties, and so do state and local govt.

states and local govt's are required to abide by the federal constitution, for example, but states may enact constitutions that are far MORE protective of individual rights than the federal one. mine does.



obama shouldn't have the power to dictate to local govt's how they should fly their flags.

it does not follow that i agree with the local cops for not doing so.

so, in brief it does NOT suck that local/state govt. has the independence to make the decision as to how to fly the flags today. it is a fundamental aspect of our democratic system in this country.

and it sucks that they aren't CHOOSING to fly it at half mast.

those are consistent statements.

It's a fact of our system of Federal Government. The President's orders apply only to the Federal Government, not to local or state governments. Undoubtedly, the local fire or police station is not a Federal facility. They are not bound by the President's executive orders.

:dem:

-Laelth

half mast. i do not remember who it was for. however, the announcement that was made was that the president had ordered flags to fly at half mast, that order was relayed to this chicago fire house, and you can bet your bippy that the guy in charge of the flag got right out there and dropped it.

i don't pretend to know the actual law involved, but the president can sure enough give orders to people beyond the employees and facilities of the federal government.

his order is an order to FEDERAL agents. to local and state PD's, it is a suggestion, and nothing more.

know your law. this is a democratic republic. federal control over state and local govt's has many restraints

if within sight of another at half staff? Navy base where I spent formative years showed this. If a ship came into port with flag at half staff in mourning for a crew member lost, the other ships would lower theirs in salute and respect for the more local mourning.

Not that everyone actually takes the trouble to observe flag etiquette. Too many leave the flag out, unlighted, after sunset too. Personal peeve when flag wavers can't be troubled to do it with decent consideration.

As far as government buildings, here in our town, Post Office flag was at half staff, while another federal building had it flying at full staff. Since I know staff in both places, I am sadly aware that some are winger jerks.

The local police force of some county in Ohio are not part of the Federal government. It may not even have occurred to them to lower their flags because they're not in Massachussetts. Here in San Francisco I saw some flags at half mast today and others not, and this isn't exactly Freeperville. I think you are way overreacting and jumping to conclusions.

Then yes, I question their motives.

It's not like they aren't driving around town all day looking at half-mast flags.

Saw a lot of mixed settings here in SoCal and for now am will to consider it ignorance, not malice.

I am telling you that even McDonalds is half-mast today and yesterday.

How can cops, who travel on the road all day long and are trained to observe, miss this for two whole days?

Especially when it is required.

2. It is not required, unless the governor of your state or the local authority in your city or county has mandated it should be so. Believe it or not the President's dictum doesn't apply in these cases, and your understanding of the rules is simply wrong.

As someone else said, call the police station about it and ask. And if you're too nervous to do that, it's your problem. It's your right as a citizen to inquire, and your responsibility too if you want to keep that right.

"Public" as in municipal, county, state and federal buildings.

No, McDonald's has no duty to follow any presidential

I reminded two businesses today that the flag was supposed to be at half mast through Sunday. Both said thought it was only the day after his death was announced and both changed it immediately. Stop by the cop shop and point it out to them. It should not be a problem.

what are you missing.

the federal govt. has NO authority to tell local and state govt. agencies how to fly their flags.

period.

imo, they SHOULD fly at half mast, but it is NOT a requirement.

they are not beholden to obama's order. that order applies to feds, NOT to locals.

we are a democratic republic. our state and local govt's are in MANY ways autonomous. this is one of them,

and don't understand the basics of how our system works.

for a local govt. so, i am well aware of how autonomous we are in regards to the fed mandates.

but you are correct,it is astonishing how many people here are woefully ignorant of BASIC elements of our democratic republic.

i am not sure that schoolhouse rock covered this, though :)

Most people aren't thinking about one way or the other, I would suspect.

And that is why I question this.

I have passed by dozens of poles today....small businessnes, houses, schools, etc.....and ALL have their flags half-mast but these two places.

The private businesses don't necessarily have to follow that.

When Reagan dies, the car dealership kept it half-mast for two weeks. And this is one of these GIANT car dealership flags...hard to miss.

I agree with what you are saying.

State or local government Facilities usually follow suit.

Civilians, whatever trips your trigger.

Since he claims to be a "Democrat" (actually a DLC turd)

Guess who authored the legislation that changed the law?

Politely pointing it out may be all that is needed.

state and municipal gov't buildings?

Bottom line: If a public building accepts federal funds - in any way - they are to abide by presidential proclamations regarding memorial dates and events.

TITLE 4 > CHAPTER 1 > § 6Prev | Next § 6. Time and occasions for display:

(e) The flag should be displayed daily on or near the main administration building of every public institution.

All rules and proclamations in regards to the flag are to be followed according to U.S. Flag Code.

In other words, all public buildings must fly the flag and they also MUST abide by all rules and proclamations.

Title 4 (FLAG AND SEAL, SEAT OF GOVERNMENT, AND THE STATES) Chapter 1 of the U.S. Code covers all of this.

I had an occasion to stop and ask the post master at a local post office why their flag was not at half staff as directed by the President. He walked outside, looked at the flag pole and admitted that they may have forgotten to tell the hourly employee that puts the flag up daily to half staff it.
This was some years back, and I do not recall who the flag was half staffed for.

mast until Sunday.

Apparently the gov ordered we stand with our fellow New Englanders.

/on edit/Nit picking alert: It's half staff on land, half mast on ships.

The President can order the flag lowered at federal buildings. Only governors have the authority to order the flags lowered for state and local buildings. Private buildings are up to the owner.

And you gotta remember...Kennedy was a Mass. senator. The overwhelming majority of people in this country pay little attention to politics on a daily basis, and don't really have much opinion of the guy one way or the other. Once you get outside of the northeast, his influence on the average person was pretty much nil. They may acknowledge his passing, but lowering the flag may not occur to them.

Funny....I work at the state university and all our flags were half-mast.

I know that here in California, the Gropenator didn't order it, and Ted Kennedy was his uncle-in-law. Arnold ordered the flags at the capitol lowered in respect, but didn't extend it statewide.

:sarcasm:

at the government office where I am manager.

I get what you are saying, in that the average person may not know how big of an impact he's had on their lives, but seriously, his influence on average people was HUGE nationwide.

Anyone who's ever had to use FMLA, or WIC, anyone who cast a vote between age 18 and 21, any women who've ever played college sports (title IX), or just enjoyed being off work on MLK day owes thanks to Teddy.

and defines "public" in the first section as being municipal, county, state and federal property.

I will never forgive you for this trespass.

and mean nothing by it. Many of us mourn Teddy Kennedy but most are thinking about their own day to day life I suspect

I told them this was the president's proclamation for all public buildings - until sunset on Aug. 30th.
I told them it was a presidential order - not a presidential suggestion.

I'm glad you mentioned this. I've been very distraught at the blatant disrespect; this is the red side of a blue state, and republicans rule around here.

Very upper middle-class area, very red.

But surrounded by blue.

To take offense at this when flag protocol ignorance is so wide spread normally seems a touch overly sensitive.

The entire city (at least to and from work and a friend's house) is half-mast except for these two flags in the same area....it is really hard not to notice this.

I will not accept "forgot" when it has already been two days.

And now it appears it is required of ALL public buildings. But these cops feel special?

If you do not notify them after noticing, how much responsibility to you now have?

let me know. Until then, I'm not going to cry over a so-called lack of respect. Kennedy lived a long life, did a lot of good, and was very handsomely compensated for his service. When I see the same level of respect extended to those who risk their young lives and futures for this country, then I'll change my mind.

for the record -



http://kennedy.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Kennedy%20Accomplishments.pdf

Sorry, but it's a 54 page pdf document ~ pinto

object to a person "living one way and acting another"? (Which is a nonsensical construct--you're mad he didn't live wealthy and act wealthy? Oh wait, that's just what he did.)

Better he should be like wealthy republikkkans who use their time and money to make things harder for the disadvantaged. I guess that consistency is a real comfort to the poor.

Yeah, right.

(Edited in attempt to explain things in a way that even a freeper could understand.)

Welcome to DU, douchenozzle!
:wave:

and needs to be corrected from the top down. Most politicians, yes even local yocal ones, don't want to make bad waves, if you call and ask why.. I think they will lower it quickly.

and the guy in charge, just did it. Nobody has complained. I work with a buttload of neocons so you don't realize how much that made my heart burst when I saw it. Also, our fire department, local police, county buildings - all half staff.

While it can be sortof petty to complain about lack of proper GRATITUDE in death, it at the same time is something that I APPRECIATE when I see because the "nods of the hat" for so long have been to idiots like Nixon, Reagan, Ford, Pope...

are cases of ignorance, not disrespect

Private residence, I thought it was cool.

Of course, a couple doors down from him was 4/5 mast....I could figure out what his message was.

Here in Michigan, I can't find any info as to if Governor Granholm has ordered all U.S. flags to be flown at half staff in Michigan in honor of Sen. Ted Kennedy and doing further reading, I don't think she has the authority to do so in this particular case.

http://www.michigan.gov/gov/0,1607,7-168-23442_28502-145155--,00.html

President Obama has issued an order that the U.S flag be flown at half staff at all federal buildings.

Your local chief of police doesn't have the authority, to the best of my knowledge, to decide to fly the flag at half staff on his or her own. You may want to find out if your governor has issued such an order and if your local police are in violation of it.

are political appointees of the mayor. GENERALLY speaking, they would follow what the mayor directed.

county sheriffs, on the other hand, are generally elected officials themselves, and are not beholden to a mayor or county executive, GENERALLY speaking, although in certain respects they are (like a county council will set their budget)

This is defined in the U.S. Flag Code as being municipal, county, state and federal property.

"Gov. Steve Beshear has directed that flags at all state office buildings to be lowered to half-staff in honor of long-time U.S. Sen. Edward M. Kennedy...."

http://www.kypost.com/news/local/story/Beshear-Orders-Flags-To-Half-Staff-To-Honor/aO1YQB0rdkuyKXepy0q-SQ.cspx

I noticed even the hotels have flags half-mast.

that I work in had all flags at half mast - and believe me I live in freeper country! Literally the home of Ron Paul - so you get the idea.

However, I get what the OP is saying - not so much that he is offended by the flag itself, but the obvious and blatant refusal to acknowledge the President.

"The Governor, in accordance with the Proclamation issued by the President has asked that all state and local governments also lower their U.S. and state flags."

http://www.co.walton.fl.us/CivicAlerts.aspx?AID=129

part of the police department.

And the dealership isn't bound to do so.

by what obama said. they aren't a federal agency.

i frankly, am not sure if a local (city or county) PD would even be bound by a GOVERNOR ordering this. a STATE agency (like state patrol) would be. that's an area of law i am not familiar with, and of course it may vary state to state. but i am 100% sure that local (state, county, city, etc.) govt.'s are not bound by obama's declaration to fly the flags at half mast.

the cameras show up, and the interviews begin!

k&r

we've never lowered the flag for anything. That's not out of "petty hate." Nobody has responsibility for it, nobody has time for it, we aren't going to be late to class because we're out messing with the flag pole. It would be an accomplishment for us if we could just get a new flag - we had someone drive by and yell at the kids (who are even less responsible than the adults for this) because our flag's getting wind torn and tattered.

I searched online and saw I could get us a replacement one for 9 bucks from my representative. I'd do that myself, but then there's the freaking hassle of disposing of the old one in the "proper" way - which involves burning nylon, which gives off toxic fumes, or bringing it to the american legion for "proper" disposal. When I looked up what they do with it, it was a bunch of religiousy crap thrown into their ceremony. Screw that, I'm not spending my personal money and driving all over town for that. My level of apathy over flag worshiping is pretty high.

My point: I suspect it's a lot of apathy and screw-it-not-my-job, more than petty hate. You'd be able to tell by whether or not they lower their flags for other occasions - if they are consistent or if they singled this out for nonaction.

A Presidential Proclamation based on the U.S. Flag Code is NOT for federal buildings only.
It has no effect on private property (McDonald's, etc.), but it does include all public property and that is defined below.


http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode04/usc_sup_01_4_10_1.html

---------------------------------------------------------------------

TITLE 4—FLAG AND SEAL, SEAT OF GOVERNMENT, AND THE STATES
Chapter 1. § 1 - § 10. covers the flag.

"Public" is defined as all municipal, county, state and federal property.

The presidential proclamation for half-staff, if so ordered, is for all public buildings.

President Obama issued the proclamation for Senator Kennedy which, abiding by the U.S. Flag Code, orders the flags to half-staff at all public buildings.

Proclamation From The White House

DEATH OF SENATOR EDWARD M. KENNEDY
BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
A PROCLAMATION

Senator Edward M. Kennedy was not only one of the greatest senators of our time, but one of the most accomplished Americans ever to serve our democracy. Over the past half-century, nearly every major piece of legislation that has advanced the civil rights, health, and economic well-being of the American people bore his name and resulted from his efforts. With his passing, an important chapter in our American story has come to an end.

As a mark of respect for the memory of Senator Edward M. Kennedy, I hereby order, by the authority vested in me by the Constitution and laws of the United States of America, that the flag of the United States shall be flown at half-staff at the White House and upon all public buildings and grounds, at all military posts and naval stations, and on all naval vessels of the Federal Government in the District of Columbia and throughout the United States and its Territories and possessions until sunset on August 30, 2009. I also direct that the flag of the United States shall be flown at half-staff until sunset on the day of his interment. I further direct that the flag shall be flown at half-staff for the same periods at all United States embassies, legations, consular offices, and other facilities abroad, including all military facilities and naval vessels and stations.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this twenty-sixth day of August, in the year of our Lord two thousand nine, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and thirty-fourth.

BARACK OBAMA