The total illogic of the "Personal Responsibility" meme of the right wing.

Have you noticed all the "personal responsibility" arguments against government health care from the right lately?

Here's how it went with a wingnut I spoke to: We can't have or handle government health care like the Europeans have because we don't take personal responsibility for our health in this country. Presumably, the argument is that if we DID take such responsibility we could avoid the health care crisis we are currently in. So is more health care essentially BAD for our health?

I argued in favor of health care like they have in France. Well, you see, it seems the French are slimmer, healthier, eat better so it's OK that they have government health care (stay with me in this argument; I know it makes no sense). But, I say, if I am French and have lost my job I don't have to worry about my health care because, job or no job, I still have it. In this country, losing your job can be a catastrophic event in terms of health care. So which population would have the incentive of taking care of their health, the Americans or the French?

Does this make any sense? Does anything make any sense in the health care debate anymore?

And they smoke a lot more so I would not say they are healthier. There is a lower risk of heart disease in France and some speculation that it is because they drink a lot of wine with their food. I don't think you can make an entire argument that they are healthier from that one fact though.

It doesn't matter if some French foods have a higher fat content. They eat less of it. Have you ever been to France? A regular meal at a restaurant is not akin to the American all-you-can-eat slurp-fest. Portions are small and well-balanced. A French meal always has vegetables somewhere. What a French meal lacks in portion size it makes up for in flavor and texture.

One doesn't get fat from eating fat. One gets fat eating carbs (like fructose) that the body converts into stored carbs at a very quick pace. Americans would do better at Ms Ds if they threw away the bun and ate the meat rather than the other way 'round.

Also, the French take their time eating. They sit and discuss while eating. Dinner starts at 8 and ends at 10. They don't shove their diet of empty carbs down their throat in 5 minutes as do Americans. While the French are having one two-hour meal, Americans have eaten one meal, had three or four carb snacks and are getting ready for a second full meal.

As far as smoking, the French are finally losing their enchantment with the habit. Non-smoking sections are appearing in French restaurants these days. Hotels also offer non-smoking floors.

Oh, BTW - contrary to received American opinion, they do have running water in Europe.

had several traditional French meals. They last hours and come with course after course of fatty foods including lot's of red meat. Do you know what the 3 secrets of French cooking are? Butter, butter, and butter!

fresh, fresh, fresh.

EU regulations are strict. We are limiting the markets we can sell our food in because of our cave-ins to the frankenfood bunch., The French are way ahead of the curve with the 'slow food' movement, a trending away from chemicals and excess, featuring all seasonal foods and old-fashioned cooking technique.

They may use butter, but they use it differently than american cuisine does for the most part. They don't deep fry much either.

I am a cook. 46 years old. I have pretty much lived on the french and Mediterranean models for over 20 years. I am (by actuarial charts) slightly overweight. But I don't have high blood pressure or glucose problems. When the nurse I saw a month ago during my first check-up in years took my resting pulse, she was amazed.

Mileage may vary.

There is something about drinking red wine with food that has a positive effect even if it is high in fat. They still do not know exactly why but there is a correlation to drinking red wine with food.

There's something about that. It seems to work and I certainly don't mind. All I know is that myself and my chefs who have lived on this food are either doing something right or defying odds with our diet. Of course it might have something to do with being physically active for 4-6 hours at a time every day.

Wine good. :D

Otherwise the entire military would be full of young republicans and they'd pay for the wars using their own tax money.

just buck up and cut away. how much more personally responsible could a person be? Ever try to give yourself sutures? jeebus, it herts.

:rofl:

:rofl:

junkies. I remember one night in a motel room one of them had somehow cut himself open with a broken bottle and was trying to sew up his own abdomen. I think that's when I really decided not to take the next step in drug experimentation.

But they will talk us all to death about how everyone else should.

no Republican has ever had to hassle with their insurance. No Republican has ever lost their job and couldn't afford heath care. No Republican has ever had an elderly parent suffer.

To hear them talk, they would gladly do away with that damn government run healthcare and I guess that means that when granny goes into the $3500 a month nursing home, they'll pay for it out of their own pocket.

I would rec this one. You're 100% on target here.

They tend not to be republicans anymore...

I struggle with this so much. Why don't they understand what they see with their own eyes? Is there some Republican teflon they spray on themselves that keeps them from understanding what is going on?

Sorry...can't get it...

And prescription prices going through the roof, and the Medicare-private insurer tug-of-war for seniors -- what in God's name is there to defend about all this impossible mess?

Honest to God, right wingers are caught up in cult-thought -- they're simply told something is good, or even the "best in the world," and they must think it is indeed so. :shrug:

They can't get enough of that good old Ayn Rand private business inserted into their healthcare, because their converage is stellar. And their prescriptions are cheaper than cheap, and their doctors charge next to nothing! We want our Republicare! :crazy:

We're all part of a society. We all live in a web of responsibility and dependancy.

Back in the day, if a Native American was kicked out of the tribe, it was a death sentence. No man (or woman) could take care of all his needs by himself.

i.e. white people are where they are because they are somehow superior and got their own their own and black people are where they are because they are inferior and therefore we shouldn't be forced to help them.

It is REALLY about destroying the role of government and trying to turn the clock back to before FDR when corporations and the rich ran everything but they are playing on people's racism and sense of self superiority in a very insidious way to do it.

Personal responsibility is fine as far as it goes but it fails to recognize that many things in life are simply beyond our control like natural disasters, crime, being laid off, catching a disease, being able to afford the schools necessary to get the training to get the job, etc., etc.

The same people who make this argument on health care are the same ones who blame New Orleanians for being victims of Hurricane Katrina because they didn't leave town - THEY COULDN'T LEAVE TOWN.

It's racism.

I hate to say it, but many people are poor because they grew up in families where the parents just didn't provide them with the tools to succeed in education or work.

I was raised by a single mom who went to work every day and impressed on me the importance of getting a good education.

Most of these "personal responsibility" republicans probably also had parents who made sure they went to school every day, and if they were having trouble, stepped in to help their child.

Success never happens in a vacuum.

My RWinger ended up saying "these people" didn't take enough care of their health. They didn't "learn English." Well, what did that have to do with health care? No real answer to that.

So I said "what about YOUR ancestors?" Well, he said, they learned English. OK that was some kind of argument against government health care, which I couldn't understand and still don't get. Something about how "his" people learned English. I'm a literacy volunteer and have 3 students learning English so please don't tell ME about people in the country trying to learn our language!

I will definitely recomend the OP and thread!

The myth that you can rise from poverty to "achieve the American Dream of wealth and success through hard work, courage, determination, and concern for others." (wiki)

It was of course all horse twaddle as Alger came from an upper class family, attended Harvard and traveled in Europe as a young man. Like some of the Republicans and Libertarians of today who admire him, he resigned his position of minister in a Unitarian Church "following a pederastic scandal involving two teenage boys." (ibid) We'd probably call him a pedophile today.

This idea that you're poor or sick because of something that you've done or haven't done is one of the most bizarre of a host of bizarre beliefs the RW propounds.

All of their complaints about what Universal Healthcare would be are actually what insurance companies are like.

off and increases the probability of bites.

Everyone has the responsibility to choose what it is that they want out of life and decide how much of what that they are willing to give for it. People will be right or wrong, mistaken or valid, in these decisions, but the rest of us may only deal with the manner in which other peoples' choices affect us, not the choices themselves, for our own right to "happiness" is predicated on the rights of others to theirs. Because peoples' choices affect my own right to make my choices, and act responsibly based on my choices, we have the right to demand that others make their choices and live by them, but, again because we claim the right to our own happiness, they have a right to their own, so you can't dictate what choices another person is to act responsibly for, only that s/he make those choices and act responsibly in accordance with the choices s/he has made.

There are many people who do not understand this. They think that responsibility is everyone's obligation to make the same conventional choices they have made and pay whatever the market price is for those choices that they have paid, or pay even more, pay all that you have if the average market rate does not bring you "success", i.e. conformity with conventional choices. They can't imagine that some people choose differently, or do not wish to pay the price, which is often your individuality or even your soul, for what others are telling them is "right".

The "dog" either can't or doesn't WANT to do what it takes to breathe under water, but they get mad it and blame it anyway for not being a fish.