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Bush Confiscated Guns During Katrina - Where was the outrage?

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my2sense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 11:15 PM
Original message
Bush Confiscated Guns During Katrina - Where was the outrage?
NEW ORLEANS -- Under pressure from the National Rifle Association, police this week began returning guns confiscated after Hurricane Katrina.

The police department is making the guns available three days a week. At the close of the second day Wednesday, police said only 17 of about 700 weapons had been returned.

Police and soldiers removed guns from houses after the storm flooded the city, and they confiscated guns from some evacuees.
....
Percy Taplet, 73, said the National Guard and state police confiscated his shotgun when they arrived to tell him to leave his house. When he tried to get his gun back this week, police told him he would have to contact state police.

"I won't ever see that gun again, believe me," Taplet said. "It's gone like everything else in that storm."

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-kat...
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. Bad link, but I am fairly certain that the N.O.P.D. did the confiscation,
not the feds.
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. irc, that was the case. it was nagin and the NOPD
and trust me, there was PLENTY of outrage.

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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
2. For those who support the RKBA-- there was much outrage from the moment it happened.
Edited on Wed Sep-02-09 11:23 PM by aikoaiko
From people on the left and right.

edited to add: Police take down granny = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1Qx0cTze0M

As others posted, I think most of the confiscations were by the local police and not federal agents.

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Kaleva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
4. Title not supported by info in post
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
5. Shhhhhhhh.
We try real hard not to talk about guns here.
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Lagomorph Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
6. Not the Feds.
Edited on Wed Sep-02-09 11:33 PM by Lagomorph
This incident really got people worked up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1Qx0cTze0M&feature=related
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
7. Well, the NRA sued New Orleans and won...
Friday, October 10, 2008


After a three-year legal battle over the unconstitutional confiscation of lawfully owned firearms during Hurricane Katrina, this week, the City of New Orleans agreed to settle a lawsuit initiated by NRA. A permanent injunction has been issued against the city, Mayor Ray Nagin, and current Police Chief Warren Riley. The Second Amendment Foundation assisted NRA in the legal battle against Mayor Ray Nagin and the City of New Orleans.

"This is an important victory for the citizens of New Orleans and the Second Amendment," said Wayne LaPierre, NRA's executive vice president. "We fought for three long years in a fundamental legal challenge to assert the inherent self-defense rights for law-abiding citizens, knowing the Constitution would prevail. Today it has prevailed and freedom has won."

Judge Carl J. Barbier presided over the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Louisiana. Judge Barbier signed the permanent injuncation against the City of New Orleans. The city admitted the firearm confiscations carried out by Nagin and Riley were unconstitutional and illegal.
http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?id=4205


Plus:

The Disaster Recovery Personal Protection Act of 2006 was a bill introduced in the United States Congress intended to prohibit the confiscation of legally-possessed firearms during a disaster. Its provisions became law in the form of the Vitter Amendment to the Department Of Homeland Security Appropriations Act, 2007.

***snip***

On July 13, 2006, the Vitter Amendment passed the United States Senate 84 to 16. It was retained by the conference committee. President George W. Bush signed the Department of Homeland Security Appropriations Act on September 30, 2006 and it became Public Law 109-295.<4>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disaster_Recovery_Personal_Protection_Act_of_2006


And several states passed laws against such confiscation.

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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
8. There was outrage (but it wasn't Bush it was the Mayor of New Orleans)
Edited on Thu Sep-03-09 12:03 AM by Statistical
The NRA even sued to prevent it.

The order to seize lawful weapons came from the Police Chief acting upon orders from the Mayor on New Orleans not Bush.

“No one will be able to be armed. Guns will be taken. Only law enforcement will be allowed to have guns.”

Even after the NRA lawsuit the Mayor and Police chief continued the illegal confiscation of arms in direct violation of a Federal Judge.

It took a SECOND lawsuit in which Mayor & Police Chief were directly named. The Judge issued an injuction directly naming the two and indicated that failure to abide by it or challenge it via legal options would be considered Content. The judge indicated the two could be arrested by Federal agents and held in content of court for failure to abide by the injunction. The temporary injunction later became a permanent injunction in which the City admitted to violating the Constitution of the United States and that it was operating completely outside the law when it illegally seized lawful firearms.

Didn't get a lot of airtime given the breadth of the disaster.

The aftermath lead to a federal bill making it a crime to illegally seize lawful firearms and that Police officers acting (even upon higher order) could be held individually liable for firearms they siezed. No more "I was just following orders" while they trampled the Constitution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disaster_Recovery_Personal_Protection_Act_of_2006

For the record Obama voted in favor of the bill (or more technically the amendment containing the provisions of the bill)
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00202

Clinton was one of only 16 Senators that opposed it.
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my2sense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
9. OK - my bad
I don't remember much outrage during Katrina and its aftermath. Thanks for setting the record straight.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. The main stream media never gave the story much attention...
they often tend to be biased in the reporting on issues involving firearms.

Much of the articles about gun control and firearms that you read in the newspapers or on the evening news are inaccurate. You get the impression, for example, that an assault weapons ban is to prevent the sale of fully automatic military weapons to the general public. The assault weapons ban attempts to ban or restrict semi-auto firearms which merely resemble military weapons and in fact operate like common hunting rifles.

If you have any questions on firearms and gun control, the gun forum (Gungeon) is an excellent area to get a lot of opinions and a lot of facts.
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
10. The Feds got no blame for this, but there was-is-hate for the local and state
Edited on Thu Sep-03-09 12:09 AM by old mark
politicians/LEO's who did the confiscating. They were largely black, and some of them were Democrats, so guess how that worked out.....
Many on the right blame ALL the continuing problems on the mayor of New Orleans. That's also why there was no help coming from the GOP government after the fact-the city was largly black, catholic and poor - so this was felt to be is god's will.

mark
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Why SHOULD the feds get the blame?
The unlawful order was issued by the New Orleans Police Chief acting on behalf of the Mayor.

There was no federal involvement.

Personally I think the leadership got off light. The city of new Orleans admitted to unlawfully violating the Constitutional rights of the citizens it seized firearms from.

If it were me I would have had Nagin and company arrested and charged with Civil Right violations and allowed to serve the maximum sentence for each offense (of which there were hundreds). The leadership got a stern talking to and that was about it.

Sorry intentionally violating the rights of the citizens of this country is tyranny.
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gaspee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 06:45 AM
Response to Original message
12. There doesn't seem to be
complaint from the NRA when it's black people denied a means to "protect themselves" does there?

Michael Moore gave his theory in his movie about Columbine that the reason so many Americans are so gun happy has to do with racism and fear of their slaves rising up in revolt (as they should have been since they were evil bastards.) I think the theory has merit.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. One of the plantiffs of the NRA lawsuit against NO was black.
Edited on Thu Sep-03-09 07:34 AM by Statistical
Sue you can't sue unless you suffer a harm. The "NRA" didn't suffer a harm in N.O. so while they can provide funding and lawyers they alone can't sue.
They need petitioners who actually suffered a harm (in this case actually had firearms taken from them).

Also NRA sues San Francisco over a ban on gun ownership in public housing.
I don't have any demographic info but I am guessing there is at least one or two Black or Hispanic families living in SF public housing.
The lead plaintiff is also gay but don't let that affect your preconceived notions.
http://cbs5.com/local/nra.handgun.lawsuit.2.758973.html

Gun control on the other hand has its roots all over racism.

In 1950s the NRA actually founded "rifle clubs" where Blacks and civil right activists could learn how to arm themselves and fight Klansmen (who often had support of the govt and Police).

You might want to read "Negroes with guns"

http://www.jacksonville.com/interact/blog/stanley_scott/2009-07-17/%E2%80%9Cnegroes_with_guns%E2%80%9D_america_dark_history_of_brutal_sadistic_v

In the summer of 1957, a Klan motorcade sent to attack the house was met by a disciplined volley of rifle fire from a group of black veterans and NRA members led by civil rights activist Robert F. Williams.

Using military-surplus rifles from behind sandbag fortifications, the small band of freedom fighters drove off the larger force of Klansmen with no casualties reported on either side.

Williams, a former Marine who volunteered to lead the Monroe chapter of the NAACP and founded a 60-member NRA-chartered rifle club, described the battle in his 1962 book, "Negroes With Guns," which was reprinted in 1998 by Wayne State University Press.

According to Williams, the Monroe group owed its survival in the face of vicious violence to the fact that they were armed. In several cases, police officials who normally ignored or encouraged Klan violence took steps to prevent whites from attacking armed blacks. In other cases, fanatical racists suddenly turned into cowards when they realized their intended victims were armed.




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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. "The Racist Roots of Gun Control" is an excellent read...


some excerpts:

Other decisions during the antebellum period were unambiguous about the importance of race. In State v. Huntly (1843), the North Carolina Supreme Court had recognized that there was a right to carry arms guaranteed under the North Carolina Constitution, as long as such arms were carried in a manner not likely to frighten people. <12> The following year, the North Carolina Supreme Court made one of those decisions whose full significance would not appear until after the Civil War and passage of the Fourteenth Amendment. An 1840 statute provided:

That if any free negro, mulatto, or free person of color, shall wear or carry about his or her person, or keep in his or her house, any shot gun, musket, rifle, pistol, sword, dagger or bowie-knife, unless he or she shall have obtained a licence therefor from the Court of Pleas and Quarter Sessions of his or her county, within one year preceding the wearing, keeping or carrying therefor, he or she shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and may be indicted therefor. <13>

****snip***

The end of slavery in 1865 did not eliminate the problems of racist gun control laws; the various Black Codes adopted after the Civil War required blacks to obtain a license before carrying or possessing firearms or Bowie knives; these are sufficiently well-known that any reasonably complete history of the Reconstruction period mentions them. These restrictive gun laws played a part in the efforts of the Republicans to get the Fourteenth Amendment ratified, because it was difficult for night riders to generate the correct level of terror in a victim who was returning fire. <28> It does appear, however, that the requirement to treat blacks and whites equally before the law led to the adoption of restrictive firearms laws in the South that were equal in the letter of the law, but unequally enforced. It is clear that the vagrancy statutes adopted at roughly the same time, in 1866, were intended to be used against blacks, even though the language was race-neutral. <29>

****snip***

In much the same way, gun control has historically been a tool of racism, and associated with racist attitudes about black violence. Similarly, many gun control laws impinge on that most fundamental of rights: self-defense. Racism is so intimately tied to the history of gun control in America that we should regard gun control aimed at law-abiding people as a "suspect idea," and require that the courts use the same demanding standards when reviewing the constitutionality of a gun control law, that they would use with respect to a law that discriminated based on race.
http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/cramer.racism.html


Michael Moore is merely stating historical fact.

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LAGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Actually, wasn't Michael Moore's argument...
That scared white slave-owners armed themselves to protect themselves from blacks in his Bowling for Columbine "documentary"? Although that really goes hand in hand with stopping blacks from owning guns themselves so they can't defend themselves against armed white aggression...
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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. Can you cite an incident? nt
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