I suppose I was rather rude this afternoon.

I was at a meeting with a woman who is well over 65 and had hernia surgery last week. It went really well, and they sent her home the same day, instead of keeping her overnight as they had planned. She kept bragging about how she has this great surgeon, and everything went so well.

At one point in the meeting, someone mentioned that a check this org had mailed to pay a bill was returned because of some post office SNAFU. She turns to me and says "Imagine if the government was handling our health care".
Me:"Didn't the government just pay for your hernia surgery?"

Her:"What?"

Me:"Wasn't that surgery paid for by Medicare, I'm guessing part A, maybe part B?"

"Well, yes. BUt I have a supplement."

"The government paid for the surgery you've been bragging about all day. Why shouldn't I have the same care? If it's good enough for you, why isn't it good enough for everyone? I don't hear you complaining about the government running your health care."

(sheepishly)"Well, I don't think of Medicare as the government."

"Well, it is".

I'm so sick of this crap, that I think it needs to be challenged whenever it rears its ugly head.

"Well, I don't think of Medicare as the government" = "I really hate that black man in the Oval Office."

Yeah, it's that simple.....................

It's all about the color of his skin, nothing else. The old white bigots can't have a black man come in here and have a good run now can they, assholes that they are and all.

otherwise we would have had health care reform when that old white dude was in office 9 years ago and tried to get health reform through.

You don't.

and it's not just Medicare - it's all the crap about these RW nuts not wanting their children to listen to the legitimately elected President of the United States.

Those fugging Rethugs need to be called on their racism.

Clinton had the same problem & he wasn't black. I think this goes back to the reagan era where he drilled it into people that govt was bad, govt was bad (was he not part of one!) and these dumb idiots bought it with their eyes closed.

Funny that repubs doesn't want govt in healthcare but wants govt to increase spending on military!

I feel there's a lot of racism in the opposition to Obama, but there's nothing remarkable or inherently racist in the ridiculous statement of the woman in the OP. It just echoes Saint Ronnie's "government is the problem" mantra. Remember his oh-so-clever, "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" line?

The rw has been fighting universal healthcare for as long as I can remember -- prolly since Johnson. Even Nixon couldn't get it through.

I think it's 2 things.

1. greed / insurance industry
2. shortages. There is a serious worldwide shortage of health care provides. Nurses work flat out without even a pee-break, and joke about needing to wear diapers. A GP in Mass was interviewed recently -- she works 7 days/week and her staff has people on phone crying and begging to be added to her client list.

There will be "rationing" in that they won't get 100% of the healthcare resources.

Did they have any problem with a white president
speaking to our nation's students?

Nope, no sirree!

There's a word for it- racism.

She was clueless. Doesn't make her a racist.

If it was all about race, why did they do Clinton (Bill or Hillary)?
I agreed they are racist, but they are also against everything we stand for.
Calling them racist doesn't cover what they are. But I suppose it would be comforting to think that, as a white person. Maybe that's the underlying reason why some white people like to frame it that way. If it's racism, whites should be OK in the end. What a relief.

But these people target everyone who isn't them. They hate us for our freedoms.

With many of them, 'healthcare socialism' is all about a programs they think will predominately serve the black population - it's less about Obama being black than about a program they think will benefit blacks to their detriment.

Not all of them, of course, but many. They are comfortable with their lower-middle class whiteness, and resent that any of their taxes might pay for a black person's healthcare (as if it didn't already).

They are willfully ignorant.

They don't want to listen. Not having any of it.


Willfully ignorant.

statement : "I don't think of Medicare as the government"
Answer : "Obviously ma'am you are correct you don't think"

.... they were saying the same thing long before Obama was running for office. It's just the "thinking" necessary to protect their ideological bubble that "the government isn't the solution, the government is the problem."

by her remark. She may be ill informed, misinformed or simply ignorant of the facts. To attribute all opposition to Obama's plans to racism is oversimplifying the matter.

with another one are mistaken.

I think that's attributing evil where sheer ignorance will do just fine. There have been years of indoctrination in this "govt is bad" policy, and years of unthinking devotion to it. They rationalize that if govt is bad, then I don't want govt, so what I take part in is not "really" govt.

Not that there's not a healthy share of racism in the opponents. But I think that is expressed more as "lets water the tree" or "I don't want this country turning into russia" supercharged crap, not a rationalization that you would have heard from any rw'er over any social service since Reagan trashed the presidency.

actually it's already on my last nerve now. Time to get out the shovel.

That's the thing that's freaking out the non clueless medicare folks.

They need more detail on that.

They were constructed by the Keebler elves.

:applause:

Except, Obama was a kid in Hawai'i, so it was probably the menehune...

:spray:

You educated her.

Nice job.

That's doing your job as a citizen, educating your fellow citizens.

You were polite, you just pointed out the spin she was buying. You did her a favor.

:thumbsup:

:shrug:

but now, well, things have changed................ :sarcasm:

:fistbump:

The Post Office works very well. The staff are always professional and polite. For many years they ran a surplus (actually brought in more money than their operations cost). They were never intended to be budget-neutral because they provide an invaluable service, but they are nearly budget-neutral despite 8 years of an attempt to destroy them by Bush.

Sorry, but the USPS rocks!

:dem:

-Laelth

(kinda ticked me off when Obama denigrated the Postal Service)

I'm not really sure how that qualifies as denigration.

In over 30 years of using it I have had only one bad instance with the PO where a package wasn't delivered properly or timely. :shrug:

They are my carrier of choice for overnight/express mailing, actually -- I rarely, if ever, go with FedEx or DHL.

I love the post office. :loveya:

results. IIRC, it was called Six Sigma. Management consultants pointed to the United States Postal Service as an example of an operation with a remarkably low error rate compared to most others. Think about the number of defects you find in everything else. The Post Office moves like 100 billion pieces of mail a year. It is easy to find stories of individual errors occurring. Yet when you compile the overall error rates, it turns out the Post Office surpasses the performance of most private companies.

(It'd be nice if Obama had this information, and referenced it, rather than ripping on the USPS.)

:dem:

-Laelth

The wife of one of my husband's friends called to give us an update on her husband's cancer treatment. He has been battling stage 4 colon cancer for almost 3 years. She said how glad she was they have good health insurance (they are on Medicare) and then told me her son's insurance company wouldn't pay for most of the cost of a recent accident and then....


she complained about illegal immigrants getting free care.

she stated how she doesn't want government run health care and doesn't trust Obama.

I asked her if she and her husband were on Medicare and when she said yes, I said you know Medicare is run by the government. And she said, but we paid into it. And I said yes, and you are obviously getting your money's worth because you said that you considered yourself fortunate to have "good insurance."

Then I asked her if her son's insurance was a private insurance company, and she said yes. I asked, "and didn't you just say they cheated him out of coverage?" I told her I had had to fight for more than 6 months to get my private insurance to pay for cancer treatment and that the company like many others had a long and ugly history of wrongfully denying claims. I said I would give my right arm to be able to buy into Medicare.

I asked her who she trusted more, the government who has been paying for her husband's treatment or the private insurers who screwed her son over and tried to screw me over?

Her response, "I don't trust Obama. I didn't vote for him."

I told her that I not only voted for him but that I campaigned for him. I said I trust him more than I trust the greedy corrupt CEOs who have been killing and bankrupting hardworking Americans in order to increase their companies' profits.

I asked her to seriously reconsider her position, to put aside her feelings about Obama and seriously consider the issue.

You know what? I don't think it did a damn bit of good. I know that her dislike of Obama and all of his policies is fueled by racism. During the campaign she sent my husband a few emails with the Muslim slurs and racist innuendo about Obama that we all saw. My husband did a "reply all" and debunked every single one of the lies. He got hate mail from a few of the people on her mailing list and eventually asked her not to send him any more of her crap.

I know it's racism with this woman.

get excellent care. Doesn't she see the difference? :shrug: Does she think because she paid into Medicare it isn't government run? I am trying to understand these people but it's difficult.

My husband had gotten a few really vile emails on Obama from her before he told her to stop sending him any more.

Do you think you made any impact on the woman you spoke with? I feel like my conversation was a total waste of time.

HER son and everyone because of racism? Pretty self-serving of her, I'd say.

But I think it's important that they know not everyone agrees with them.

completely uninformed nonsense. Sometimes it takes a real effort to keep your cool. :(

Same thing - the sender asked me not to reply - I said that as long as you send this crap I WILL REPLY ALL - they continued to send me this crap, and I ALWAYS hit "reply all" - and then I started to hear from her IGNORANT fucking REPUKE "friends" - and I fired back with EQUAL GLEE with FACTS!

Eventually they stopped sending me this CRAP or trying to RESPOND with THEIR CRAP.

GOT TO FIGHT THIS CRAP EVERY INCH!!!

That's the problem. They should have "vacancy" stamped on their foreheads.

I guess that there are people who refuse to acknowledge facts that contradict their most rigid beliefs or prejudices.

It's sad.

Maybe you'll get to someone else who isn't blinded by racist hate.
Seriously, you were right there with the rebuttals - and sounded very patient.

:sarcasm:

for THEIR insurance.... well, why should i have to pay for you. because we are paying for the people who are in there now with no guarantee of having the same ability to use the program in the future. I am glad we have medicare and that it is available to older people.... but we ALL pay into it. just like this woman's son pays into his insurance but gets screwed if he tries to use it. why is that??? because her son's insurer is in it to make money.... medicare is in it to provide healthcare. it's sad to see these folks shit on their own kids like that. cancer is in this family, i guess... so her son is at risk. he could DIE if his insurance doesn't cover something. does she not get that!! and i frankly wouldn't give a crap if an illegal immigrant got taken care of either. they DO pay taxes.... they do pay into the system as much as anyone else does. i don't care what any of these people say.

They blather on about the "guvment" then suck away on the medicare teat. But, you see, we paid into that they cry (right -- I am sure they paid the hundreds of thousands of dollars her husband's cancer treatments cost). How do we make rational arguments that these people can understand? Or is it impossible?

and those that don't have, don't deserve it anyway. this is what i've been hearing. the selfishness disgusts me. :(

:toast:

:woohoo: :hi::hug::loveya:

:hug:

about what the government does for her. Remind her that the govt also oversees commercial flying through the FAA, etc. Maybe she shouldn't fly, ride a train, etc, either.

Second one i go, Medicare IS public health care.

No it is not

Bring it up on the web... yes, yes it is....

They need to be challenged

Of course he tried but you get your private doctor.

Yeah I am alson on the guv'ment tit, and I also get to choose my primary care doctor... try that again with somebody else.

:shrug:

to "Fedex" all of your bills, letters and Christmas cards. The U.S. Post Office does a great job.

As it is, the cheapest that I've found to send a letter out using only UPS or FedEx delivery services (not their "hold it for the USPS man to come by and empty the outgoing mailslot...") is $4.50 for 2-3 day ground. That was for a award package - a small envelope-sized certificate of achievement and congratulations card. My office mate couldn't find two first-class stamps and a padded envelope, and was too lazy to get away from his desk, so he had the mail room send it out with their daily FedEx. $4.50 for what would have cost me at most $1.50 - and that was if I went to Target to purchase the padded envelope. I usually have envelopes like that, so it would have usually cost me a stamp and a trip to the a drop box.

The post office provides bulk services and standardized logistics for standard rates - whether it's no letters or a thousand letters to be picked up at a drop box, they stop to pick up on a schedule. They always have scheduled trucks, planes, and individuals to deliver, even if there is very little and "it's a waste of effort" to drop off one letter and some junk fliers - or just to check to see if there's any outgoing mail - at a remote house in the boonies.
UPS and FedEx won't do that. If they had their way, you'd have to go to their store to drop off a letter or buy postage. Pick-ups and deliveries would be contracted, just as they are now for businesses. You can't just expect UPS to stop by your business to see if you had something to go out, you have to pay for the service.
And even if you go to their storefronts to drop off postage, you'd have to wait until it was "cost effective" for them to get your letter or package to where you want it to go - which always means paying extra.

To spend $44 on a pack of 100 stamps that covers service for any 100 standardized cards correspondence in envelopes that you want delivered anywhere in the country in a reasonable time is really quite a bargain. Even upping their price to 50 cents a stamp wouldn't be half as costly as being forced to pay whatever private delivery companies would charge for the same services you get from USPS.

As for losing mail, erroneous deliveries, and damage to parcels - I've had the same incidence of poor service without recourse from FedEx as I have from the USPS. FedEx lost track a very expensive box of test tools shipped from my office to an out of state worksite back in the late 90's, and the spent over 2 years trying to get them to admit they even picked it up (even with the pick-up receipt signature on record with the receptionist). The company went out of business before it was ever resolved. Both FedEx and UPS has delivered to the wrong address before - we've not received packages they claimed they delivered, and we've received packages (including a very nice stereo) addressed to someone else at our doorstep many times.

USPS is quite efficient and convenient, especially compared to their "free-market" equivalents.

Haele

Wonder if these folks think of the Army that "protects their freedoms" is the government or the schools that educate their children?

Sometimes it takes getting sick to see the light. Many times sickness reminds us of what we take for granted, the healthcare workers who work so hard to save lives, and the many small invisible things people do for each other. Time is too short in this life not to take advantage of special times to speak deeply from the heart.
I had hope when GBeck had his surgery that he would be a patient advocate, he had the opportunity...but he shut himself down.

I'm not an activist, but I swear I've not seen the progressive base as energized about anything as much as we are now. Probably because it's not the enemy in the White House or Congress, it's supposed to be our own. Republicans pander to their base--why don't Dems pander to us?

How they think Medicare is not the "guvment" is beyond me. They clearly are not in the practice of thinking.

if she's 65+, then she was alive when LBJ was getting this passed. And back then as today, the repukes raised holy hell.

Fuck them, they know fucking god damn perfectly well it's paid for by the government. These fuckers are trying their best to use the old canard "I'm older than you, I should know" bullshit argument. Fuck them and their willful ignorance.

just like last time, this will get passed without those obstructionist bastards.

OMG, I want to slap these people. How can they be such morons? Where the hell to they think Medicare comes from, a private company???

Electricity for most is the government.
Water is the government.
Your roads, even the tolls, are the government.
Your drugs were researched on government grants.
Your food is inspected by the government.
Public schools are the government.
The internet was developed by the government and it never asked to be repaid though it allows companies to charge you for access to something that's free.
Hospitals are government for the most part.
The police, the fire fighters, medics, etc. etc. etc.
I could go on.
These people need some education.

In fact, your response strikes me as measured, well thought out, and delivered with all the respect I'd give anyone who didn't agree with my point of view.

Good on You.

You certainly were NOT rude in any way.

All you did was point that woman at the Truth. She didn't like what she saw, but that was no fault of yours. Advocating for the honest truth and for justice isn't rude. The rude person in that exchange was the hernia patient for wanting to deny to other Americans the level of health care that she already enjoys.

Celtic Merlin
Carlinist

goddamn selfish? does being over 65 give her the right to be so fucking selfish?

I am still floored when I hear that whole "no government health insurance, but don't touch my Medicare."
Honestly.... we gotta do something NOW..... about our Education System.
Yeah, I know. And I'm an educator.

This is shameful. So much ignorance. Where to start?

Its hard to educate somebody that isn't interested in learning. Please don't try to confuse them with the facts. They know what they know and that is all that counts... well except for what Rush and Beck tell them.

You merely pointed out a matter of fact to someone who was ignorant of such a fact. Consider yourself an educator, and be proud!

till I've got it memorized. Kudos to you for pointing out to one person that their Medicare is PAID BY THE GOVERNMENT.

that Medicare recipients are the ones who object the most to healthcare reform. :wtf:

"I think it needs to be challenged whenever it rears its ugly head."

You're absolutely correct.

I would have been reaching for a nearby pillow as soon as she said that (and I don't mean I would use it to comfort her either). :evilgrin:

woman just had cancer.....didnt have anything done about it until she turned 65 because she didnt have insurance. But all she could talk about was how great her "suplimental" insurance was and how she would be out on the street without it. I gently reminded her that without her "government" health care, she would prob be dead. Its very frustrating to get people to GET it.

... the subject of health care sends all three of us over the edge. They are both on Medicare (and know it's a government program).

It always leads to argument / stalemate.

Recently, the subject came up again and my sister began spouting misinformation about the Canadian system (dreadfully long waits, Canadians flocking to the U.S. for treatment, etc.) I attempted to lay out the facts, but she just completely shut down and left the room.

I simply cannot understand their resistance to facts. She is hardly stupid. She was a Vice-President of a nationally known company, yet believes the drivel that she's heard / read.

After she left, my BIL continued his nonsense. I finally shut him down by saying "How does providing health care to those who don't have it harm YOU in any way?"

He had no answer.

They follow their leaders blindly. You may as well bang your head against the wall. Especially with relatives, I would just smile and say what I have to say. But you handled it very well this time it seems, not argumentative, not hot-headed, and not wanting to show that you want to win the argument.

...point out to them that easily 750,000 US citizens per year seek health care outside the US.

everyone should have.... But they don't want the Government running healthcare.. well the government already does. If the older set is SO against Government run healthcare I say pull it, take away their medicare and see how long they cry against Government run healthcare. I'm just sick of them, particularly the one's ON medicare. Now THAT'S rude... and I tell them so...

What you did was cause the woman to experience a "cognitive dissonance." It is easy to hold contradictory beliefs as long as you do not think about both of them at the same time. While it is satisfying to point out the contradictory ideas of others, I have found that it rarely causes them to change their minds, anymore than ridicule or insult.

On the other hand, you might have persuaded someone who witnessed the exchange and had no ego involvement in the scene.

once again, frustrating as it is: we can't change others.

Not that we shouldn't rebut the brainwashing when the opportunity arises..

... is this: The supplement only paid the deductible of Medicare Part A, $1000 or so. The Government paid everything else. And incidentally, how much in premiums have you paid for your supplement? So that's X amount of dollars over so many years and they paid out $1000? Do the math, that's how much money the private insurer has made off of you. Medicare part A cost you nothing, nada, zilch. You could have just paid that deductible out-of-pocket and taken a trip or two to Europe or a dozen or so spectacular weekends at Foxwoods.

I'm willing to bet she's paid at least $2000/yr for her med supps. $10,000+ for 5 years worth of supps.

DU'ers going on Medicare: Understand how Medicare works. Really. If you are well off and can pay the deductible, it is much cheaper than paying for med supps. The next time you are shown Supplemental Plans A through M, do ask WHY so many plans. Answer: It's because of the many holes lobbied for by insurance companies and accommodated by Medicare so the insurance companies continue to make money out of FEAR.

The best plan in most states and for the majority of seniors, is the High deductible F plan. For a very low premium, you're out-of-pocket is capped at about $2600. Since the concern is the hospital bill and rehab, and just in case you get hospitalized twice or thrice in a year, you KNOW what you have to pay: the very low Hi-F premium plus its corresponding high deductible. If you are healthy, and see a doctor once a year, I guarantee you will have paid much less in premium and copays than if you had the cadillac of med supps, the J plan. Healthy or not, fear of the unknown has been eliminated.

More on how it works: You keep paying Medicare co-pays and part A & B deductibles until the high deductible is met. After that, the insurance company picks up the entire tab. Period. What do you pay? Maybe $1000 for Part A deductible, $260 or so Part B deductible, and 20% of what Medicare doesn't pay for out-patient services.

What about Part B copays? Medicare is what is known as a usual and customary plan. Meaning, they kind of take the average pay in your particular area for a particular service. Look at some CMS statements. After the part B deductible is met, doctor bills $100, Medicare approves $60 only, Medicare pays $48, YOU pay $12. Compare that to paying $200/mo for your regular med supp. Who made out? NOT YOU if had a regular J plan or any of the aged A to G plans.

Also understand, Medicare does NOT pay for LTC. They will pay for maybe 30 days or so. NO med supp, no matter how expensive, will pay beyond what is approved by Medicare. Med supps are NOT LTC. Point being: HR 676 does. Go lobby for 676, or for single-payer, or for public option. OR you can be an idiot and go pay $5000/yr (at a minimum) in LTC premium. But that's only IF you medically qualify. If you aren't healthy, better make sure you don't live too far from your kids.

... "I don't think..."

No shit.

private insurance carriers who offer the supplements look for reasons to deny claims.

I cannot understand why Dems aren't shouting from the rooftops that Medicare is a government program that works well and basically keeps seniors solvent. If they had to pay their medical expenses out of pocket, most would be in huge trouble.

as in, "Well what did you think? That Medicare falls down from the trees?"

Seriously, wtf is wrong with these people?

their own best interests!!!

Propaganda works!!

You point out that Medicare is a government program and her response is "I don't think of Medicare as the government".

FACTS BE DAMNED!!! FACTS JUST GET IN THE WAY!!!

Very frustrating.

I don't think you were being rude. You made her aware. Whether it changes her mind or not is something else but at least you made her aware that she is indeed using a government run health care program. Maybe she'll think twice before ever making those types of comments again.

"At one point in the meeting, someone mentioned that a check this org had mailed to pay a bill was returned because of some post office SNAFU. She turns to me and says "Imagine if the government was handling our health care". Me:"Didn't the government just pay for your hernia surgery?""

"She turns to me and says "Imagine if the government was handling our health care"."

She didn't even say "...if Obama was handling..." The assumptions here, that because she hadn't thought through the Medicare/government thing makes her an automatic racist, are disturbing.

That meme is out there right now -- WAY out there. It's also possible that this individual is not an example of it. Could she be someone who takes Medicare for granted because she's old enough to think that's just what people do?


edit:
I forgot, I wanted to thank you for speaking up. You're right, it's important. It's not easy to do in any situation. Esp. work!! :hi:

It's entirely possible that she was also a racist, and it's even possible that racism played a role in shaping her opinions of Medicare, but from what was presented, it does not appear to be the major factor.

Racism very definitely is a factor in some of the other BS that we have seen.

But I think we weaken the charge AND we may overlook some other problems that we're fighting against, if we call something racist when the evidence just isn't there.

about one person. The assumptions can be dangerous -- and potentially make us more like the hatemongers.

Thanks for your reply. :hi:

Good on ya for challenging ignorance. She owes you for free education today.

Keep on educatin' the masses, and don't look back :)

slightly less ignorant than Fox News would like.

K & R

Sometimes what you did is the only way to deal with ignorance and non thinking ignorants that spout out utter garbage.

That woman should have been asking herself "why should she even need to purchase and have a second suppliment insurance over and above her primary healthcare provider Medicare" and try to come up with an answer for the question while keeping her mouth shut and being thankful that she has a government Medicare healthcare plan available to her. The answer to the question is because her hospital, doctor, amd pharmacist providing her healthcare and medication are just as greedy bad much to blame as any OTHER private sector gouging insurance company that sell her the second supplementary is. Amd fer gud's sake don't even say it's because of doctor/hospital/pharmacist cover their ass because of incompetent's liability insurance that they themselves get gouged for because of sue anyone and everyone at the drop of a hat clientele. The whole system of business and clientele in U S society has grown absolutely "I want something for nothing" pathetic.

This second, third, and sometimes even fourth supplimental healthcare insurance policy necessary to pay over and above the primary insurace policy, isn't limited to just people of age and eligibility to be on Medicare either.

And I don't know about anybody else but I'm sick and tired of having to have either a caveat emptor pointed at me or have a caveat venditor preceeding me on the tip of a sword I feel obligated to carry for every transaction I choose to enter into.

You challenged her- good for you!

:)

I am sick and tired of stupid people bellowing over those of us with the ability for critical thinking. It is time for our government leaders to put the public option healthcare into law. The majority voted and in a democratic society that is all that is necessary. These right wing fringe crackpots are beginning to think they are going to rule over everyone. They must be copying the Taliban or something. These anti-American traitors need to be told in no uncertain terms that the majority ruled that President Obama was right and they are wrong.

They don't think of Medicare as the government??!!!!!!!

Beyond words....

You did well. You made the point that while she was whining about the government she was being very well taken care of by a government program. This one of the things that makes me want to eat metal. Those dumb ass right wingers demand this of quality of care for themselves all the time denying that it really is a government program, but they want to deny the same type of care to everyone else.

I have medicare. It works better than my husband,s private plan. I am concerned about any proposed cuts to it. We have been trying to call the White House for days, my husband and I, to follow up what we have written and tell them that a bill without a public option will not serve anyone's interest. The "box" for the comments line is continuously full no matter what time of day or night we call. Time to write some more I guess. I wonder if anyone ever listens to the comments or if it is just a convenient way not to hear them?

You were not rude. You were correct, you told the truth and even though the woman you were talking to was thick as a plank, maybe someone else might have learned something. I wonder what they would do without their Social Security, a government run program, which Bush tried so hard to destroy? Or the CDC which tries to make sure they have their flu shots both regular and swine. Maybe that is a Mom and Pop business and not a government program? I wounder how they would like to land in a plane without Air Traffic Controllers, also government employees? I could go on and on and we should. There is probably very little in the life of a Freeper that is not touched in some beneficial way by a government program or an individual who works for the government. They all seem to be emulating Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols benefiting from all the farm loans from the government up until the time they blew up the Federal Building in Oklahoma to demonstrate their hatred for the same government who helped them when no one else would. They are cruel, ill informed, duplicitous and stupid. An all around winning combination.

A lot of these mislead anti-reform idiots are actually on some kind of govt assisted programs (Medicaid, etc.) and yet have the gall to show contempt for "government".

The message needs to get across that: MEDICARE = GOVERNMENT. DON'T LIKE THE GOVERNMENT? THEN GET OFF MEDICARE!

But see, they won't. The rightwing is all talk. They are hypocrites!