WSWS (World Socialist Web Site) termed "sick and reactionary" by Marxists for anti-union disruption

Now explain to me why we allow a half dozen or more articles copied and links from this site to be posted here on a daily basis, but we don't allow the same for Rense, Prison Planet, Lyndon LaRouche and other lunatic sites?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Socialist_Web_Site
The World Socialist Web Site is the online news and information center of the International Committee of the Fourth International (ICFI). It supports and helps campaign for the Socialist Equality Parties in elections.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Committee_of_the_Fourth_International
The International Committee of the Fourth International (ICFI) is a Trotskyist international. Its affiliated parties are called the Socialist Equality Party and have sections and supporters in 6 countries. It is well known for its publication of the World Socialist Web Site, with content in 13 different languages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Equality_Party

Workers' Struggles and the Trade Unions

Although some members<2> of the SEP are union members, the party does not seek to facilitate any sort of social change through the Trade Unions<3>, which they characterize as having interests antithetical to the workers they represent. The Party calls for a break with these organizations and the formation of "workplace committees" that will carry on economic struggles.

<end quotes>

It's an anti-trade union movement.

Period. QED.

http://archives.econ.utah.edu/archives/marxism/2002w48/msg00140.htm
The last time I checked out a literature table of this group was at the
April 20 antiwar demonstration.

The table carried material supporting the slander campaign against Hansen,
as well as the related slander campaigns against Jack Barnes and 11 other
SWP members who attended Carleton College as CIA agents, and material
supporting the frameup of Mark Curtis, a meatpacker and SWP member in Iowa
who, while he was involved in defending immigrant workers arrested in an INS
raid at his plant, was railroaded to jail for eight years on rape and
burglary charges.

Also, the Socialist Equality Party appears to have a position opposing
unions and strikes. While this formally resembles the sectarian positions
held by the basically defunct Socialist Labor Party, I think it is an
extension of disruptive activities the Workers League carried out at plant
gates, union picket lines, and other union activities.

While the World Socialist Website may have its attractive features -- North
has a lot of rebuilding to do, after all -- I believe that what lies behind
it is as sick and reactionary as the Workers League ended up being.

<end quote>

WSWS various political organs are, as has been noted often anti-union, anti-strike, primarily dedicated to disrupting other left wing organizations, and is "sick and reactionary."

Hence the constant attacks on unions, Democrats, British Labour, European Socialists, Greens, and even Communists.

They are a tiny, narrow, sectarian, non-reality based group that chooses as its exclusive focus disrupting all other left of center political groupings, and uses lies, slander, falsehoods to "catapult the propaganda."

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

2) Looks at your post.

3) Scratches head.

and also to post factual information no matter who it may cast in a negative light

or even differing opinions, preferring rather information that conforms to their own prejudices.

I think his vision is just fine.

The difference between Hamden and many, many others is that he still has the stomach for it.

People who frequently post World Socialist Web Site tracts here typically end up in my ignore list fairly quickly, mostly because they don't seem to be able to do anything else *but* that.

"Stomach for it" is a good way of putting it. It's a filthy job, but someone has to do it!

:hi:

You should get an unlimited supply of cookies and milk for this. :)

Seriously, back in college, I actually tried to keep track of the various factions at play here, and it got to be overwhelming in its scope. It was eye-opening to realize some extreme leftist organizations targeted some of the exact same things as extreme right-wing groups, only with supposedly more credibility than the right-wingers and for marginally different reasons. It eventually turns into a purity contest: which group is more pure to the ideals of "social revolution," or some such thing.

That way leads to madness.

but I am close to adopting your technique rather than leaving DU entirely.

But, eventually, it got to be too much. One particularly ridiculous exchange between me and another individual that lasted over several days was the last straw. Neither of us could let it go, so I just hit ignore and have lived blissfully unaware of this person ever since.

In a perfect world, I could just not respond. I'm not perfect by any stretch of the imagination.

I don't use it a lot. The list is a very select few, but most of those on it do in fact like to quote WSWS quite a lot.

do not agree with your particular bias. I believe that the typical suggestion is that you can always find a site that better agrees with your views.

Also, it appears that there is ALREADY a function in place to cater to your delicate constitution and the need to avoid anything you might find distasteful: the ignore feature. You seem well acquainted with it already.

Nevertheless, none of what you writhe about has anything to do with whether the content is objectionable..except to your stomach. Should we also ban every spicy food that doesn't agree with you?

I'm always amused at those who write twenty words that supposedly summarize what I have said in ten.

I have no issue with the mods or admins, and I will thank you to keep your presumptions to yourself.

All I said is that *I* ignore people who post the WSWS tracts repetitively for reasons similar to why Hamden finds the site being linked here objectionable.

Please do be aware that your attempt to deflect the criticism of the WSWS into solely an issue of website administration is noted but not successful. The criticism of WSWS stands unless you have something to refute the ideas presented in the OP.

that remain unsubstantiated and are motivated by your own sentiment and bias. Turns out, we agree on the point completely.

Unsolicited advice I know, but you should try some Pepto for your stomach.

Better people that you have tried to play this game with me.

All have failed.

Good day, "Kid."

I agree that you're good at playing games..I bow to the master in that respect

Roy was not arguing that he was upset that the mods and admins do not delete things he doesn't like. Fail.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

what Glenn Beck is to the right. Thanks for posting.

Assuming in some alternate universe Beck got his way, there would still be a functioning government and society. If the SEP/WSWS got its way, society would collapse and be controlled only by worker committees controlled by, you guessed it, the SEP.

I would put them further out -- maybe with the Klan, Christian Identity, and other violent right wing groups.

Also Beck generally attacks ideological opponents on the left, like the Democrats. WSWS/SEP has historically focused almost all of its attacks on organizations of the left, which is nominally on the "same side."

is targeted at the left.

Considering how critical it is to progress for fronts with similar goals to be united... well... hang on, let me get my tinfoil hat.
;)

For instance, someone rushing to get their tinfoil hat might stop and think for a second and decide "y'know, I might be a little stupid"

Go play with the others who wish to humor your bullshit, kid... I'm not interested. :rofl:

hes the expert gamesplayer not me

discovered Marx and Trotsky--I remember those days myself.

Then I grew up.

:thumbsup:

Yes, it takes some longer than others to wake up to the ways of the wide, wide world... but hopefully most eventually do so. :)

Stunning...

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

You don't enjoy the Most Honourable Tradition of bait games and pissing contest and in-fighting between leftists and their various parties, affilities, groups and Most Orthodox Dogmas, in the name of "best argument wins"-rationalism? :D

Oh, but you do... and like to play... :)

The neo-Marxists versus the Social Historians versus the Structuralists versus the Charterists versus Black Consciousness.

The difference is that the ground rules were that you had to be reality based. If you make stuff up, you are not allowed to play.

That's why, disagree or agree, Democrats, Greens, Naderites and Democratic Socialists of America can all play.

WSWS/SEP can't.

once been even a trotter, belonged to a revolutionary socialist party of a trotter tendency (IS, to be exact). But didn't follow up by jumping the neocon wagon... :D

Currently IMO few if any others besides "anarcho-primitivists" (in widest possible sense) are reality based... :)

How to resolve what is based on reality(TM) and what is not? Interested in a Socratic dialogue or some similar philosophical process to find out? ;)

Been also reading WSWS then and now and cannot concur with all what you say. For example, being anti-union. From what I read, SEP is critical of current (reformist) unions which it sees as tools of capitalistic state, suffocating strikes (rising from the bottom) and revolutionary sentiment of the working class. It does not mean that SEP is anti-union in principle - they would love SEP lead unions!!!. There is probably lot of validity to the WSWS critic about functioning of current unions and their leaderships, as well as hopefull thinking to current level of revolutionary spirit of the working class (not to mention SEP role as The Avant-Guarde Party leading The Revolution(TM) :D)

Fits that the Neo-Cons are ex-Trots.

...on the WNT site, worldnewstrust.com. The stories have been quite good. I surely don't know about various branches of socialists, but you are condemning a good source.

BTW, I've been active in unions all my life, so I'm by no means anti-union. --Francis Goodwin, WNT managing editor

Don't understand the animus, my Friend. The World Socialist Web Site provides real news and honest analysis from a more just perspective.

For instance:

Study documents nearly 1,000 lies from Iraq war propaganda campaign

Don't recall seeing too much coverage of the Center for Public Integrity study from Corporate McPravda.

As for the other "lunatic" sources of news and information, if it were up to me, I'd say: "Go ahead and post from them, as long as what they provide is true. And if it isn't true, putting it up in the open means people can see it for what it is -- a lie."

Much of the stuff that has been posted here has fallen apart under a few minutes factual scrutiny.

Just because they have sometimes posted an article or two with facts, doesn't mean that they don't also lie repeatedly -- which they do.

Sometimes Rense gets it right also.

appears to be you aimlessly bitching about every article posted.

We must be reading different clocks. Here WSWS told us about what we've since seen come very, very true:



I don't always or even often agree with their politics getting between the lines, Hamden Rice, but I do think their reportage is honest. The reason: They tell the reader where they're coming from.

I wonder what their take is on national healthcare?

Often, it's quite clear that an article is based in BS simply from reading the article.

Unlike the Press Corpse, Weldon brought up something very important that WSWS was brave enough to cover:

9/11 commission told of Atta cover-up

Gee. Wonder why so many from left-to-right on the Politico spectrum want the then-active duty Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer, USA to STFU?

bent, and have one more than one occasion stated that unions are supporting the oligarchs by allowing themselves to be co-opted by them.

It is obvious to me that they have never in there life have participated in a labor action, organizing effort, or strike against ownership in any way. They hate unions just as much as they hate capital.

And I agree, links to an anti-labor site should not be allowed here.

basically anti every other progressive party or movement. Not only have such people never organized anything or participated in anything, they are marginalized in a tiny party that is too embarrassed to publish its own membership figures.

It would probably be five old guys and the FBI/CIA handler.

and provide links to the "more than one occasion"?

So far this thread has been fueled entirely by Hamdens own bluster and red-faced hostility, but he is somewhat short on factual documentation, which is becoming an alarming habit for him. Maybe you can help him out. If not, I suggest that you may wish to refrain from joining the chorus of Hamden's tantrum in a teapot.

I agree as well that links to "anti-labor sites" should be monitored carefully, but you can't simply slap the moniker on sites by fiat and I also wonder how you are defining anti-labor in the first place. Is it only sites that are explicitly based around denigrating labor or would it also include sites that allow commentary against sell-out unionism?

The latter I think is a slippery slope

But I'm sure you know who they are.

And your comment on 'sell-out unionism' is telling. Who are you to define such?

to refrain from making comments that you are unable/unwilling to back up. Per above, Hamden certainly agrees because he tells us that it is all-important that one not "make things up"

As for sell-out unionism, I don't offer a definition. I merely note that there are people are opposed to it and that those people are hardly "anti-union" as a result. If you disagree and insist they are anti-union I ask: who are you to define such?

I respect their rules, unlike others that link to anti-Labor, anti-Democratic sites.

Their political agenda is in direct conflict with democracy in any way, shape or form.

But, you know that.

who you brazenly and accusatorily insist I do know while hiding behind a hypocritical cloak of "I don't call out other members"..even as you do exactly that.

This entire thread is a witch-hunt and a smear campaign. I would think a union member in particular would be sensitive to such an outrage.

I owe you nothing, but I'll give you this.



Have a nice day.

a parting gift of sorts..it suits you

Is there such a thing as a benign Freudian slip?

If you refuse to deal with facts, of course, it won't convince you. Those of us in the reality based community know otherwise. Here's what the Independent had to say about their British chapter:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/socialists-new-party-strikes-a-left-hook-at-scargill-1354171.html

Socialists' new party strikes a left hook at Scargill

Barrie Clement Labour Editor
Monday, 25 November 1996

If Tony Blair looks down his political nose at Arthur Scargill's Socialist Labour Party, he will need a lengthy proboscis to con- template another newly-formed force on the left. The Socialist Equality Party, which intends to field up to 20 candidates in the general election, is a touch to the left of the organisation formed by the miners' leader.

An SEP communique sneers at the namby-pamby politics of the Scargill party and the Trotskyist Militant Labour. Such groups, the statement says, are an attempt to build on the discredited and reformist convictions of Old Labour and are subordinated to the bankrupt trade union bureaucracy. <HR: Yeah, like the SEP can compare its accomplishments to the accomplishments of the British Labour movement.> The SEP is to show its disdain for those who would merely tinker with the capitalist system rather than smash it, by putting up a candidate against Scargill's man in the Barnsley East by-election next month.
...
The party, the membership of which is a secret <HR: What membership? :rofl:>, has a long and fraught history and is the "culmination of a 10-year struggle" by the International Communist Party. In fact it seems the ICP has simply changed its name.

Mr Hyland believes the tag of Communism led people to confuse them with the Marxist-Leninist regimes of the old eastern bloc. He argues that the implosion of the Stalinist states was a vindication of the analysis of Leon Trotsky who in 1940 got a Stalinist ice pick in his head for his trouble.

The International Communist Party was born out of a dialectic dispute that tore the Workers' Revolutionary Party asunder some 12 years ago. The split was also to do with a row over whether a serious political organisation should receive money from Libya's Colonel Gaddafi, and the matter of the financial activities of its leader, Gerry Healy. One of the other groups which grew out of the split eventually became the Marxist Party.

you seem to bring up sectarianism quite alot -- apparently you have to do your own wetworks in this regard since NO ONE ELSE HAS BROUGHT UP SECTARIANISM LET ALONE EXHIBITED IT.

What is the relevance of this article? You say "They hate.." Who is "they"?

It seems to me that accomplishments aren't so important to some... that it's more about a badge of purity that you can proudly display, as you whittle your party down to (oh-so convenient for some) ineffectiveness.

ain't such a pressing issue any more!

:rofl:

The UAW leadership for example, is a bunch of sold out whores, scabs themselves. They sell their membership down the river like clockwork.

And then there is the UE, that's what I call a union.

The union movement was largely compromised by Taft-Hartley which by disqualifying the reds deprived the movement of it's most dynamic leadership and organizers.

So if the WSWS is anti-all-unions rather than just targeting some for criticism... well, that seems stupid to me.

There ain't too many unions worth spit today, though many might be reorganized.

WSWS provides solid class analysis and that's why the defenders of the status quo hate it. They also insinuate some of their Trot bullshit in their work but it's easy enough to spot and ignore.

due to the fact that they seem to help more with dividing the left more than they help with getting much at all actually done.

Ya can't be of 'the Left' and support Capitalism.

Not that it hasn't been tried before, consider the social democrats of 1914, for the most part they lined up behind their national capitalists, traitors to the people.

which is the struggle to try to steer this country in the left direction... that means ANYONE who can help accomplish that goal.

So for me, yes it most certainly does include some who support capitalism.

worse than trash imo.

:rofl:

wsws is a whackadoo source. :shrug:

What, in your estimation, is the thesis of the OP? :hi:

They're from a very dogmatic perspective but they some times reveal interesting things about the film that I hadn't thought of.

http://www.bolshevik.org/1917/no30/no30-GRPI-WSWS.html

Northites Inc.: Toeing the Bottom Line
Being Determines Consciousness

In the spring of 2007, the Socialist Equality Party/Inter-national Committee (SEP/IC) was rocked by a public scandal when Scott Solomon, an embittered former adherent, revealed that David North is not only the leading figure of the SEP and IC, but is also CEO of Grand River Printing & Imaging (GRPI), a multi-million dollar business in Michigan. The SEP leadership would apparently prefer to keep its successful commercial venture secret, but it cannot deny the facts.

The GRPI evolved from the in-house printshop that used to produce the Bulletin, the newspaper of the Workers League (WL—the SEP’s predecessor). When the WL/SEP suspended publication of the Bulletin in favor of producing an online daily on its World Socialist Web Site (WSWS), the party print shop was apparently quietly transformed into a full-blown business.

At about the same time, the SEP/IC leadership discarded the traditional Marxist view of trade unions as defensive organizations of the working class and declared that they had become simple agencies of the capitalists. North wrote a lengthy essay on this theme entitled “Globalization and the Unions,” in which he announced the “objective transformation of the AFL-CIO into an instrument of the corporations and the capitalist state.” We polemicized against this in 1917 No. 29 (see “SEP: Defeatist and Confusionist: The Class Nature of the Unions”).

They serve at the whim of their master.

Must be nice to be a millionaire Trotskyite.

Interesting to say the least.

:eye roll:

Do you consider it all just a pack of lies?

Which is being exploited by the poster from a right wing standpoint.

Insiders who are Trots are spilling their guts about his operation and bullshit anti-union stance, which they say is related to his being a corporate chieftain.

Your attempt at red-baiting is reminiscent of the Stalin purges in the Soviet Union when they went after the Trots, Anarchists, and other progressives for being "too liberal".

It's calling him a hypocrite. And a capitalist -- the opposite of red baiting.

You can't see the difference? Don't you get it? He's a fraud. WSWS/SEP is a scam. It pretends to be revolutionary, but it privatized the printing presses to allow "David" and "Heather" to live the good life, on the profits of a non-union shop, while bemoaning organized labor as an enemy of the working class.

David and "Heather" live lovely while begging for more money from students to "build the party."

Dag, what is this shit, a fundamentalist religion or something?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

you were talking about Jim and Tammy Faye Baker.

Are they frauds?

I don't recall a single OP that invoked the name or merits of the owner of WSWS, so once again..is this just more of your redbaiting or do you care to offer something other than bluster for a change?

No?

Do they run anti-union websites claiming to be revolutionary while also running non union printing shops?

No?

Then you haven't made a coherent point.

if you're point is hypocrisy, then you're in trouble because the hypocritical statements made by Senators and Obama are legion

So I guess you have to be in the "no coherent point" club by yourself..

It is not hypocritical for them to be millionaires and pro-capitalist.

North/Green pretends to be anti-capitalist revolutionary and pro-worker -- yet his anti-union dogma is dictated by the fact that he has a non-union shop to run, and needs to keep it that way.

Sorry you can't comprehend that.

so tell me what this has to do with the OpEds from WSWS that are posted here that are not (presumably) written by the owner and, according to YOU, go against the ideology of the owner?

If you are claiming that they are therefore compromised -- without regard to what they write -- then I think you are guilty of hypocrisy. Unless you think it is peachy keen that every PUBLIC legislator including the President takes huge donations from every corporate "sponsor" under the sun.

I wasn't aware that senators and Obama were running around claiming to be Marxist.

Do you really have no defense other than misdirection?

and aim most of their criticism at the left?

Do they accuse unions of being in sold out and work against them?

There are so many problems with that analogy it's not even funny.

Given, there are some corporatist dems who do it... but they don't claim to be representative of the left, let alone the far far left.

to look at the steady decline in union membership since their merger in 1955 to know it.

Are they going to attend the precinct and low level caucuses so we can improve our platform?

How exactly are they helping to push this country left?

It seems like they're more interested in turning people off the left, to me.

not the result of what some obscure website says.

Since most of this country is steeped in anti-left BS... I find it hard to believe that if only the Dems would start acting far more openly socialist that it would attract tons of votes.

But yes, I'm sure there's a tiny percentage who would be drawn in by that... far fewer than we'd lose from the middle, though.

So it all depends on your priorities, really... what your real goals are, I mean.

Medicare or Social Security?

"tiny minority," eh?

how shamelessly disingenuous of you... but then, desperate times, right?

But like I said... desperate times.

Really gotta run now... it's been entertaining. :)

in the context of "dems should deliver," i think it's a timely example.

though i could cite the bankster bailout, the war, the bush prosecutions, jobs, or numerous other examples as well.

Some of these accusations aren't exactly fluff stuff, it seems to me...

As for being exploited from a right-wing standpoint, we'll have to agree to disagree on that. IMO bashing Dems as being just like republicans... which seems a common theme from WSWS pieces... is self-defeating... unless one truly believes that there really is no difference.

Seems to me that it's the purists who are being exploited from a right-wing standpoint, by being encouraged to spread dissent and division from the left (which only serves to help the right)... just MHO of course.

The Democratic Party, like all political parties, are merely vehicles to an end. If, for instance, you are anti-war and a Democrat, and the party leaders back more war in Afghanistan then the reason to be a supporter of the party vanishes.

As an Anarchist I'm not a particular fan of WSWS but it is a voice of a portion of "the left" just as much as the DLC is another voice.

Further, despite the OP's hysteria and inclination to attack the messenger rather than the message, I seriously doubt that the articles posted here will "split the left". Nor do I believe that "attacking Democrats" from the left will amount to any more than pinpricks when the elections are held.

I DO believe that it is the responsibility of the citizenry to hold all public servants accountable no matter what party they belong to or position they hold.

I "attack" policies and the politicians who are in charge of them. As, I think, do most of the posters who question or belabor politicians and the ruling class.

What gains have anarchists made for anyone, anywhere?

What's the point if what you're engaging in doesn't actually improve anything?

As for splitting the left... if that mindset is spread, I do believe it is damaging. If you don't then we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

I assume that you think that an Anarchist named Mohandas K. Gandhi had a bit to do with that.

If not, I might want to call that the exception which proves the rule.

Didn't know he was an anarchist... thanks for that tidbit. Off to read. :)

A goodly portion of the early American Labor movement was started by and supported by Anarchists.

were won by the unions associated with the AFL-CIO.

afl-cio merger = 1955; union membership peaked the same year.

afl-cio has presided over the decline.

http://www.westga.edu/~bquest/2000/lcycle.html

I said unions associated with the AFL-CIO. There obviously was an AFL and a CIO and its constituent unions before the merger.

But if you think anarchists negotiated more contracts to improve the concrete work conditions and wages of workers than those unions -- well, I have an ideology to sell you that is supposedly "revolutionary" but is anti-union, and is promoted by a multi-million dollar corporate cult leader who owns a non-union shop!

You buyin?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Tomorrow's Hannah Bull link dump to WSWS bullshit is going to be soooooo entertaining!

thus, they're not the same unions as before their association with afl-cio, the centralizing corporate organ which has presided over their ongoing membership decline since 1955.

from 35% private unionization to 7%.

the "fighting afl-cio"!

fighting for the corps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_affair

8-hour-day fight.

"The influence of the Haymarket affair was not limited to the celebration of May Day. Emma Goldman was attracted to anarchism after reading about the incident and the executions, which she later described as "the events that had inspired my spiritual birth and growth." She considered the Haymarket martyrs "the most decisive influence in my existence".<56> Alexander Berkman also described the Haymarket anarchists as "a potent and vital inspiration."<57> Others whose commitment to anarchism crystallized as a result of the Haymarket affair included Voltairine de Cleyre and "Big Bill" Haywood, a founding member of the Industrial Workers of the World.<57> Goldman wrote to Max Nettlau that the Haymarket affair had awakened the social consciousness of "hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people".<58>"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_affair


Interestingly, the McCormicks of McCormick Harvesting Machine Co. which figures so prominently in the case set up a foundation. Said foundation now funds education privatization in Chicago & its trustees are major Obama donors.

The long arm of capital.

I know! Let's go shopping!

Now, set that against how much has been accomplished by those you term "sellouts".

Please. :)

this is who accomplished something, & for the most part, they're unsung.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6551007&mesg_id=6551007


IWW = anarchist/socialist formation: organized the lumber industry, etc.

The IWW was founded in Chicago in June 1905 at a convention of two hundred socialists, anarchists, and radical trade unionists from all over the United States (mainly the Western Federation of Miners) who were opposed to the policies of the American Federation of Labor (AFL).

The convention, which took place on June 27, 1905, was then referred to as the "Industrial Congress" or the "Industrial Union Convention"—it would later be known as the First Annual Convention of the IWW. It is considered one of the most important events in the history of industrial unionism and of the American labor movement in general.

The IWW's first organizers included William D. ("Big Bill") Haywood, Daniel De Leon, Eugene V. Debs, Thomas J Hagerty, Lucy Parsons, Mary Harris Jones (commonly known as "Mother Jones"), William Trautmann, Vincent Saint John, Ralph Chaplin, and many others.

One of the IWW's most important contributions to the labor movement and broader push towards social justice was that, when founded, it was the only American union (Besides the Knights of Labor) to welcome all workers including women, immigrants, and African Americans into the same organization. Indeed, many of its early members were immigrants, and some, like Carlo Tresca, Joe Hill and Mary Jones, rose to prominence in the leadership.

The IWW was involved in over 150 strikes, including those in the Lawrence textile strike (1912), the Paterson silk strike (1913) and the Mesabi range (1916). They were also involved in what came to be known as the Wheatland Hop Riot August 3, 1913

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Workers_of_the_World

Really?

decline in membership & worker consciousness ever since.

afl & cio leadership 1947-1955 purged the communists & anarchists who'd done the heavy lifting & merged to manage the "business unionism" of the cold war & the "clawback unionism" 1960s to present.

Please, don't be coy.

judge the policy results for yourself.

We can compare notes in 8 years.

Spain 1936

After General Francisco Franco declared war on the Spanish government in 1936 (Spanish civil war) the government lost control over much of Spain. Resistance to the rebels was often organized through the confederation of anarcho-syndicalist trade unions, the Confederación Nacional del Trabajo (CNT) and the Iberian Anarchist Federation, the Federación Anarquista Ibérica (FAI). The Spanish Revolution occurred almost immediately after the failed coup of Franco, leading to the formation of worker's collectives all over Republican Spain. This has been hailed as the best example of a functioning anarchist system. Anarchists were instrumental in keeping the country running and holding back the Francoists, until they were attacked by the Republican government and their Communist allies. The government was subsequently defeated by Franco, leading to 40 years of Francoist dictatorship in Spain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_civil_war

:rofl:

Typical...

the spanish civil war = middle 20th century.

your original claim was: anarchists never accomplished shit. idiotic claim, as anyone who knows labor history knows. anarchists *were* the original labor movement in large part, as marx didn't start writing until the 1850s.

now that i've commenced destroying your original claim, you ignore it & move on to your new claim: what have anarchists done since the early 20th century?

well, they were pretty much supressed in the purges of the 1920s, e.g.:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmer_Raids

& the communists & socialists came to occupy a larger position.

but some of the leadership of *those* struggles made their bones in the earlier wave, e.g. this well-known labor leader & co-founder of IWW:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_V._Debs



now, why don't you tell me the big wins the afl-cio brought for labor in the "second half of the 20th century"?

let's see: declining membership (35% unionization to 7%), wage & benefit cuts, offshoring of jobs & dismemberment of the US industrial base.

check.

You can keep dancing around the fact that it's really most of the Dem party that you're claiming is sold out & useless... but people are familiar enough with your posts to make that effort a wasted one.

Have a great evening. :hi:

big surprise.

Look at what you're doing now.

You're trying to make this a battle between anarchists and the AFL-CIO... how fucking stupid is that?

:rofl:

Have fun bothering others with your brand of logic... I've had enough entertainment in this thread, thanks.

:kick:

:thumbsup:

He helped build a political party and post colonial state.

Anarchists are often members of and participate in political parties but they usually look at them as tools to achieve an end. Just like most other people do.

Google is a terrible thing for con artists with the public profile of even the cult leader of a small Trotskite party.

Disgruntled party members have been coming forward about the owner of WSWS -- David North. He is the wealthy owner of a printing company, with revenue of $25 million. Hence the anti-union stance.

According to insiders, "David North" is also "David Green." North/Green purchased printing presses in the pre-internet days to produce party literature. The money to buy the equipment came from donations of party workers.

When North/Green went on line with WSWS about 10 years ago, he devoted the printing presses to corporate printing jobs.

In essence he "privatized" the printing presses of the Trotskyite party for his own use and profit. He uses cult members to work the presses:

http://community.livejournal.com/trotskyism/3890.html

A Tale of Two Men
A Tale of Two Men
By Joe Hargrave

Here is a story you might find interesting:

I know of two men. One of them is the leader of a small Trotskyist political party in the United States. He is known as David North. The other is the CEO of Grand River Printing & Imaging, a company that earns 25 million dollars a year according to its website. They call him David W. Green.

For nearly 30 years, Mr. North ran his political party and Mr. Green ran his business. Mr. North gave speeches about the exploitation of the working class. Mr. Green exploited his workers, deriving surplus value from their unpaid labor. Mr. North thundered against the corporations that dominate American political life. Mr. Green sought those corporations out as clients, and probably did lunch with some of their executives. Mr. North would talk about the disgusting climate of corporate greed that pervaded the American cultural atmosphere. Mr. Green helped actualize that corporate greed by printing advertisements to help them push their products on consumers.
...
Unless, of course, they were the same man.

Could it be a case of multipule personality disorder? Not exactly. You see, David Green, alias David North, is a fraud. He is the biggest fraud to hit the socialist movement since James Robertson of the Sparticist Leauge or "Chairman" Bob Avakian of the Revolutionary Communist Party. He owns a multi-million dollar corporation, and the upper echelons of his political cult and members of their family occupy key executive positions.

The rank and file members of the party are completely unaware of the existence of North/Green's corporate empire, which includes Grand River Printing, Merhing Books, and who knows what else. They assume that the party sustains itself through the donations that it begs for on its website and at its conferences, as well as the regular contributions that members are expected to "pledge" every month. I was exempt from this particular requirement only after I reminded one of its leaders of the considerable amounts of money I had invested in my own local branch. How nice of them. I can only imagine the giddy internal glee that North/Green must have felt every time some naive sucker wrote the SEP a check for a few thousand dollars. To North/Green, and the other party leaders, such donations were in fact chump change.

I can also only begin to imagine the difficult decisions that had to be made on a daily basis, such as, "how little can we put into this whole socialist thing to keep it viable while we live in the lap of luxury?", and, "should I use a 50 dollar bill or a 100 dollar bill to do this next line of cocaine?" All kidding aside, anyone who is serious about building a revolutionary movement, and who also happened to own a multi-million dollar company, would invest the maximum amount of profits into the former.

What I mean to say is, I could accept the fact that North/Green exploits the labor-power of his workers if the surplus value created by their unpaid labor was being used to build a movement that would one day end all exploitation. The ends, as I generally believe, justify the means if the ends themselves are justified. But this is obviously not taking place. The SEP has full branches in three cities - LA, NY, and Detroit. With the profit margins we can assume a 25 million a year company is capable of, there should be a fully-staffed branch in every major city in the United States. There should be an SEP radio station, a public access program on television, etc., etc., etc. Those profits, in sum, should be used to promote the movement, to expose not tens of thousands but millions of people to socialism.

What could possibly account for a failure to do these things? There is only one inescapable conclusion - that North/Green and his cronies enjoy the good life more than they do the revolutionary life. And they enjoy that life at the expense of the wage-laborers they employ. To dance around these uncomfortable realities they invent all sorts of paternalistic schemes where they provide top quality education and training for their workers - while, of course, "keeping wages competitive". To read the website of Grand River Publishing & Imaging is to be sickened. Every line is infused with phony corporate enthusiasm and politeness, in order to impress the equally phony corporate clients looking to get their ads published and printed. Contrast that to what you normally read on the WSWS. How can these people sleep at night? They might respond like the fictional Renier Wolfcastle: "On top of piles of money with lots of beautiful ladies".


http://squirrelcommunism.blogspot.com/2007/03/red-squirrels-lair-faq.html

Thanks for keeping this blog. I found it while trying to find out about David North and the Secoiliast Equality Party and his7their relation to David Green and Grand River Printing and Imaging. I was a member of the Workers League in the early 1970's. We raised a lot of money to buy printing presses, which I would bet were the original presses used to get Grand River Printing going. Most of that money came out of the pockets of workers, and some pretty oor people. So I would say that David Green is not your ordinary, hard working capitalist pig. He is a vampire who sucks blood from workers. I have my doubts about the place really being a good place to work. when the Workers League ran a print shop in New York City, the workers were all party members who worked 18 hours a day. It was a union shop on paper, but the reality was that all work rules and over time pay were ignored for the sake of the revolutionary cause. That system was used before North took over the Workers League under the prevous sleader, Tim Wohlforth, who in turn copied it from the Gerry Healy operation in England, who may have copied it from the print shop of the SWP for all I know. North/Green seems to have taken that system to a "higher" level". I wonder how many grand River employees are also members of the SEQ.

Because WSWS is a scam, that's why.

http://www.stumbleupon.com/url/www.wsws.org/

These guys take great pride tracing down their lineage to Leon Trotsky himself but what have they accomplished in 50+ years of existence using various names? Absolutely nothing. They don't have one single meeting hall on the entire planet. They don't have a party constitution or even party elections. David North has been in charge for 30 years. Who voted him there? Why do they keep voting him there if the party has done absolutely nothing worthwhile? There is also evidence to support that David North is an owner of a corporation. This party is a cult and an embarrassment to socialism. Members chastise you for the most trivial things. One member created a Facebook account just to spy on me when I was interested in joining the party and reported back his findings so they could all chastise me in unison. Also the members themselves told me this is not a party of action. They don't go out and participate in activism. They don't go out and try to help the working people. All they merely do is write "news" with no sources. They are anti-union which is anti-Trotsky! And they depend on younger college individuals interested in the party to do all the work for them. "Go out and form an SEP club in your college so we could have a place to hold meetings because we've been around for 50 years and haven't accomplished a single thing." Using this free domain they'll hold meetings where they teach their revisionist anti-union program that lacks action, force members to advertise the website, and give out a shitload of flyers only to waste your time byaccomplishing nothing. What do you hope to accomplish by staging speeches in small rooms in the YMCA building or hold meetings with 5 college students? This is why this party has done nothing in 50 years and will continue to do nothing. As for their anti-union stance, I just don't get it. Yes unions here n America have become reactionary, but it's not at the fault of the members it's the leadership. The union will always remain as the most basic form of workers organization. How could you want to do away with this? What would they have without the union in capitalist society? Educate the workers to oust their petty bourgeois leaders and take control of the union!!!

http://www.soviet-empire.com/ussr/viewtopic.php?t=41918

Not only does David W. Green run Grand River Printing and Imaging (which generates $26mm+ per year in sales and no doubt keeps him and his wife Heather Green living comfortably from a company that no doubt was built scamming international "comrades" for money during fund drives, summer camps, etc., he also has created a fake martyr, Tom Henehan, who in an unguarded moment "North" seemed to confide in Chris Bailey that he himself ("North") bore responsibility for his death. From the Marxism Listserv from years ago:

& costs.

But you knew that, didn't you?

No respect for truth.

Your dancing is superb!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Now how about you explain away the accusation that they stole the printing presses, purchased with donations, from the "party" and privatized them?

in fact, i said as much long before you did, as you'll see if you check the links in my response to you below.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6560399&mesg_id=6563213

you see, i'm honest, whatever else i may be. i don't misrepresent what i believe the facts to be.

for the record:

Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-29-09 03:58 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. what's funny is, i'm not a trot, or a member of any sect at all.
i just think wsws has good reporting from a labor pov, even though i think sep is probably a psyops outfit.

heresy, apparently. only the nyt or wa post pass muster, apparently.

though they're propaganda & psyops outlets too.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=5950432#5950565


Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-15-09 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. some is coming from the qatar & saudi royals, biggest owners of "middle eastern" media.
everyone's got their biases. i don't believe the spin of middle eastern royals superior to anyone else's.

wsws's are up front, not disguised.

in fact, it's widely rumored the trots are a front group designed to siphon off real dissent.

nevertheless, in their role as phoney opposition, wsws delivers mostly fact-base reporting based on msm sources & local informants & analysis from an anti-capital pov, with an obligatory "we must build the rev" at the end.

i can discount their spin for the rest.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=5850814#5851451


you can spin & smear as you please. shows who you are.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Would you like to revisit your claim that unions are a criminal conspiracy against the working class?

Was that an honest claim?

I claimed uaw & afl-cio = company unions. which they are.

keep digging your hole, hampton.

i notice you don't cop to it when you misrepresent facts, just go on to new smears.

shows who you are.

Austin Powers: I don't even know what this is! This sort of thing ain't my bag, baby.

Quartermaster Clerk: One book, "Swedish-made <deleted> Enlargers And Me: This Sort of Thing Is My Bag Baby", by Austin Powers.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6071594#6071858

Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Wed Sep-16-09 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
129. I have no problem with you "outing" David North. As I've said repeatedly,
I'm not a Trot, don't belong to SWP or any sect, never have. I've also noted that some say the institutionalized "radical left" are often suspected of being front groups designed to siphon off legitimate dissent, e.g. here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

I post the articles because 1) they're generally honest with the facts; 2) their slant is a corrective to the msm/nyt/wapo spin; 3) they report labor & international news from a labor perspective; 4) to bug you, hamden.

unlike some, i think the financial & business connections of every opinion-purveyor should be public information.

As your your claim that you post stuff, "1) they're generally honest with the facts;"... That's just

:silly: :crazy: :silly:

why don't you post it here?

http://www.indymedia.org.nz/article/73526/socialist-equality-party-crock

Socialist Equality Party a crock!

The Socialist Equality Party is a small group that some people in Wellington will be familiar with. They had a talk at the Victoria University Law school in September of last year. They did another one earlier this year during orientation. They are also the owners of the World Socialist Website.

Turns out their leader one David North, lives a double life. In one he is the leader of a Trotskyist group. In the other is known as David Green the CEO of a printing company with a turnover of $US21 million a year.

A former member writes:

Some years ago, the communist political cult to which I used to be a
member for one year (then known as the Workers League, now known as the
Socialist Equality Party) made an interesting "turn" in its political line.
According to SEPtic, the unions were no longer organizations of the working class.

I found this "turn" to be quite startling. Upon further thought,
however, it sorta made sense. David W. Green ("North"), the cult leader of SEPtic,
having run the cult since the mid 1970s, had been a complete ineffectual. He and
his cult never organized any workers, never gained any influence in the labor
movement, never accomplished anything. So, in a strange way, it made quite a
bit of sense that "North" was now writing off the unions altogether.

Still, I wondered, how was it that "North" managed to keep control
over a dedicated cluster in the top leadership.

Today, playing around on the web, I found a possible answer. It seems
that David W. Green is CEO of the 241st largest printing company in the USA.
EXHIBIT 1 is a link to the company's site. EXHIBIT 3 show that in 2005 the
company generated $21mm in sales. EXHIBIT 2 has pictures of "David North" and his wife
in Crain's, touting them as some of the best employers in the city.

The "puzzle" now makes sense.

Question: why does the North cult solicit members for donations when
they run a profitable enterprise that could conceivably fund the SEPtic web
page activities?
Is there any sort of democracy in SEPtic? Were a faction to take over
the cult, what would be the impact of the North crew vis-a-vis the company
activities?

It's interesting that CEO North now tells workers that unions are no
longer organizations of the working class. This same "line" is probably echoed by CEOs at
all unorganized companies.

All of these articles are generated from the bare word of someone who claims to be a former member, a Scott Solomon, who created this story on Google groups:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics.socialism.trotsky/browse_thread/thread/4c525cb9cc8d4ee2/55127fd0b4d14c50?hl=en#55127fd0b4d14c50

One has to sign in with a Google account to view the post in the Group. I will C/P here for the benefit of those who don't wish to create an account right now.



Scott Solomon
View profile
(2 users) More options Apr 22 2007, 9:17 pm
Newsgroups: alt.politics.socialism.trotsky
From: Scott Solomon <scott_p_solo...@hotmail.com>
Date: 22 Apr 2007 21:17:18 -0700
Local: Sun, Apr 22 2007 9:17 pm
Subject: David W. Green ("North") . . . CEO/Cult Leader for "Revolution"
Reply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author
EXHIBIT 1

http://www.grpinc.com/grandriver-people.html

EXHIBIT 2

http://www.irisolutions.com/pressroom/best-places/2003_Crains.BPTW.pdf

(see page 2)

EXHIBIT 3

http://www.weandrews.com/wwwAndrews/Docs/RRD_piworld_1.pdf

(see page 9 of 14)

Some years ago, the communist political cult to which I used to be a
member
for one year (then known as the Workers League, now known as the
Socialist
Equality Party) made an interesting "turn" in its political line.
According to SEPtic,
the unions were no longer organizations of the working class.

I found this "turn" to be quite startling. Upon further thought,
however, it sorta
made sense. David W. Green ("North"), the cult leader of SEPtic,
having run
the cult since the mid 1970s, had been a complete ineffectual. He and
his cult
never organized any workers, ever gained any influence in the labor
movement,
never accomplished anything. So, in a strange way, it made quite a
bit of sense
that "North" was now writing off the unions altogether.

Still, I wondered, how was it that "North" managed to keep control
over a dedicated
cluster in the top leadership.

Today, playing around on the web, I found a possible answer. It seems
that David
W. Green is CEO of the 241st largest printing company in the USA.
EXHIBIT 1
is a link to the company's site. EXHIBIT 3 show that in 2005 the
company generated
$21mm in sales. EXHIBIT 2 has pictures of "David North" and his wife
in Crain's,
touting them as some of the best employers in the city.

The "puzzle" now makes sense.

Question: why does the North cult solicit members for donations when
they run
a profitable enterprise that could conceivably fund the SEPtic web
page activities?
Is there any sort of democracy in SEPtic? Were a faction to take over
the cult,
what would be the impact of the North crew vis-a-vis the company
activities?

It's interesting that CEO North now tells workers that unions are no
longer organizations
of the working class. This same "line" is probably echoed by CEOs at
all unorganized
companies.


He posts again at the website cited:
http://www.soviet-empire.com/ussr/viewtopic.php?t=41918


scott_p_solomon
New Comrade (Say hi & be nice to me!)
Joined: Thu 03 May 2007, 17:17
Posts: 7
PostPosted: Fri 04 May 2007, 12:14
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.poli ... d0b4d14c50

This is the original post that identified North as a CEO. EXHIBIT 2 is a link to a Crain's article that has a picture
of North/Green and his wife.

Note: SEPtic has not denied this. They just reply that
"Engels was also a capitalist" blah, blah, blah. Which
of course is not the point. The point is how democratically
can a political organization be run when the cult leader
is also running the company that generates all the money.

It's an OBVIOUS conflict of interest, in the same way it
would be a conflict of interest to have a guy working at
Goldman Sachs who also has his own Wall Street recruiting
firm.


Sadly, his "exhibit" links seem broken. edit: the third link works. It's a printing catalogue and nothing else.

I thought perhaps you were interested in facts. I guess creative writing is really your forte' however. Carry on.

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=2207124228&topic=2287&post=6862

This is a repost from the Socialism Myspace group.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics.socialism.trotsky/browse_thread/thread/4c525cb9cc8d4ee2/55127fd0b4d14c50?hl=en#55127fd0b4d14c50

It all makes sense now. I can confirm that the man in the picture on page 2 of the second link is in fact David North (aka David W. Green), national secretary of the Socialist Equality Party and chairman of the editorial board of the World Socialist Website. He is also the CEO of Grand River Printing & Imaging (GRPI), a privately-owned company. His wife is the VP of Personnel and the wife of Barry Grey, a member of the WSWS editorial board, is the Chief Financial Officer. There are other party members involved in this company as well, as some of the images that have come up in further searches have revealed.

GRPI is not a mom-and-pop print shop. It is a company that, according to its website, generates 25 million dollars in sales and employs 90 people. According to its history, it works with ad agencies that do work for Chrysler and K-Mart, Detroit-area based corporations.

In my three years of involvement with the SEP, not once was the existence of this company ever made known to me, or to anyone else I am aware of. The existence of this company and the identity of its owners is surely unknown to most SEP members, prospective members, and supporters. The party leadership leads a double life as a group of corporate executives.

Regardless of how well this company may treat its workers - according to the reports, it has won awards for being one of the best places to work in Detroit - all party members have a right to know that their political leader owns a company that generates 25 million in sales every year, and that it is staffed by party members and relatives of party members. I see no evidence that this is a cooperative firm based on worker ownership, and every bit of evidence to suggest that it is nothing but a case of benevolent exploitation.

Perhaps had I known this while I was working an understaffed, underfunded campaign in Los Angeles, I would have raised uncomfortable questions. Perhaps I would have wondered why money was being begged for at every conference, why we were given speeches about the costs of running the party and the website, why we were made to think that donations and monthly contributions were the only possible way that the party could continue its existence.

Websearches show that the printing world is impressed with GRPI, it is an innovator in its field and is always on top of the latest innovations to remain profitable. In fact, North/Green explained the secret of his success at a 2000 seminar:

"Greene said that it is important to develop among workers the idea that they are part of a larger vision, and that they are important to that vision. Of course, wages must remain competitive."

http://www.zoominfo.com/search/ReferencesView.aspx?PersonID=18333480

Of course. Otherwise he might have to fly coach instead of first-class on his next trip to Europe.

What do you folks think?

http://lists.econ.utah.edu/pipermail/marxism/2008-October/038196.html

The news about the death of Jeff Sebastian, the guy who recruited me to
Trotskyism back in 1970, saddened me (see earlier post), but it also made me
curious about the intervening years of the David North led cult, which I had
left way back in the 70's. All that I knew about them was that they had
moved to Detroit, taking the printing presses we had worked so hard to raise
money for some time after I left the group. Then they had reappeared with a
slick website and a weird poltical party (not surprisingly) called the
"Socialist Equality Party".

You have to hope this stuff is just all made-up lies... cause otherwise... geez.

Turns out its the creed for their party!

I see link-back to the Scott Solomon story at several of your links. As I said, the picture links he provided are dead, so there is no way of seeing with our own eyes. I'd say it is a very questionable assertion, at best.

But don't believe them, if you don't like. WSWS is, after all, infallible to the faithful, so the people confirming the story must be all wrong.

:sarcasm:

I just don't like to see misinformation travel around the web. It's untidy. Anyone can say anything on the web. It's probably all the same guy.

I think it's puzzling that it's a mystery who the leader of this party even is... seems kinda suspicious even, after hearing these claims.

Say it ain't so...:eyes:

of a millionaire while their dupes beg for donations.

This Scott Solomon has been all over red discussion boards pushing this, there is a smell of vendetta. For example:

http://www.soviet-empire.com/ussr/viewtopic.php?t=41918


Concerning your wiki link:



You know very well how that stuff works, particularly when rivals come to play.

No doubt there is some truth to the matter, though possibly irrelevant.

The big point is that you are unable to refute WSWS articles so you must shoot the messenger. I'm not a Trot and find them to be pretty lame revolutionaries but this internet site provides working class analysis pretty damned consistently though one must ignore their forays into the sectarian. And that is what you really object to.

I agree BP. There's a bunch of stuff going on in this thread, but one central theme (from the OP) is that WSWS/SEP has a political line that is anti-union.

What the OP doesn't discuss is how that line (if it does exist) is carried into the editorial policy of WSWS (as it is in any other media outlet), and if it does determine editorial policy, how it distorts what is presented as news reporting.

My impression is (and it is completely anecdotal) that they tend to celebrate rank and file contributions to class struggle at the expense of Trade Unionism at the staff or International levels. Like you and a couple others here, it doesn't seem to me to be to hard to evaluate WSWS reporting, accepting what makes sense and rejecting what doesn't.

It does seem like a few people with a grudge. I really don't know much about socialism, I just thought it was strange that it was being asserted as fact that these two men were one and the same when there is no proof. I'm naturally skeptical of things like this.

Scott Solomon writes critiques of David North in the form of haikus. Hmm.

http://www.groupsrv.com/politics/about157031.html

Scott Solomon...
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:32 pm
Guest
SEPtic Haiku

Did David North sing
To a captive audience
Of brain-dead members?
Back to top
Scott Solomon...
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:28 pm
Guest
SEPtic Haiku

Bluto is fatty
Joe Kay is jokey jokey
David North blowhard


On Jan 30, 8:32 pm, Scott Solomon <scott_p_solo... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
Quote:
SEPtic Haiku

Did David North sing
To a captive audience
Of brain-dead members?
Back to top
Scott Solomon...
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:31 pm
Guest
SEPtic Haiku

Elections coming
Signatures to gather up
We get fifty votes


On Jan 31, 11:28 pm, Scott Solomon <scott_p_solo... at (no spam) hotmail.com>
wrote:


That's a bit worrisome. There's two pages there.

I am definitely going to keep this for when those who insist on posting the crap from WSWS take umbrage at any criticism of the same.

by the post or on a commission from the books that are sold.


You know there was a time that Marxism and Marxists was both interesting and entertaining, now it is only boring and irrelevent.


Having assisted 440,000 refugees (some of them socialists and communists running for their lives from 'revolutionary justice') leave their asylum home to go to new homes it is no longer an academic exercise.


As I said in another thread they are starting to resemble Jehovah's Witnesses and have to jump on one side of an ideological argument one day and go to the other side in a quick jump only to have to return to the original position the day after.


It would be a lot of fun to see the UAW order a large printing from the printing company you mention and see the opinion of unions by the local scribe here change upon receipt of the purchae order.

then.

Organizing autonomously from trade unions has been a staple of left activism since the late 1960's, by the way.

A model of "big business," "big labor," "big consumer" and "big government" working together. Those days are over. But the attack from the likes of WSWS isn't even reality based.

They hate each other more than they hate Fascists and Capitalists.

nt

Hard to take it or the people who post it here seriously

:thumbsup:

for the "softer" version of the corporate capital slaughterhouse casts aspersions on socialist website. What a surprise.

Your sympathy for organized labor is touching. Too bad it doesn't comport with your incessant ramblings about the glories of capitalism.

Exhuming McCarthy again Hammie?

Point out a link to my "incessant ramblings about the glories of capitalism" or shut up.

But it's touching to see you come to the defense of David's and Heather's $26 million lifestyle based on non-union labor.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Dude your favorite source is busted. Get over it.

:applause:

you post some valid information about WSWS, but none of it supports the accusation of being a "lunatic" site, or gives any reason for people not to post links from there.

Several of us have deconstructed dozens of lying WSWS articles over the last several months.

They are as crazy and dishonest as LaRouche, and now we know why.

and when someone asks you "whats the point" you tell them to search for some other posts you made? And someone is accusing ME of misdirection..

nt

The main legal leftist parties/organizations in the 80s were the United Democratic Front (UDF) and the Congress of South African Trade Unions(Cosatu). They had lots of underground participation by the banned African National Congress (ANC) and South African Communist Party (SACP)

The trade unions were very powerful because they could not only launch industrial strikes, but carry out general strikes. But the unions were mainly focused on improving wages and working conditions for industrial and service workers.

There was a long acrimonious debate about whether it was politically correct for Cosatu to be so focused on wages and conditions in the middle of a much bigger oppressive political system, and whether they were reinforcing the system by gaining concessions on working conditions. They were very cautious in striking for any purpose other than wages and working conditions -- ie squandering their power. This view came up from the shop floors, especially shop stewards who complained that you couldn't build the union and keep it strong unless you delivered better wages and conditions to actual workers. You politicized less educated people by winning concessions on wages and shop floor issues, not lecturing them about revolution. Moreover, they argued, poor working people needed to put food on the table and pay rent.

The far left (Trotskyites) wanted them to become more radical and focused on revolutionary action, like constant general strikes. But those far left voices were almost never shop stewards -- they were bourgeoise intellectuals and students mostly. It takes an out of touch bourgeoise intellectual to downplay wages in favor of dangerous, premature "revolutionary" action; you kind of have to not have your own factory job and wages on the line.

The shop steward tendency won out, and was supported by the UDF, ANC and SACP.

it is a catch-all phrase for the radical chic bourgeois who don't want to be associated with Stalinism, but still want to don the title of marxist. It means nothing. I'm not disagreeing with you at all btw.

DSP = Democratic Socialist Party.
SPofA = Socialist Party Of America.

I'm much more familiar with DSA Democratic Socialists of America, which is truly democratic and pragmatic, pro-union, pro-elections, and so forth.

The party described in the OP claims to be to the left of the old Soviet Union's communist party, despite its misuse of the world "socialist" in some of its organs.

not that Communism has any benefits to it, major fail and something I am not in line with.

I am a Democratic Socialist and the two parties I mentioned is the only two I consider my self part of.

:thumbsdown:

There's no proof that these two men are the same. I've been looking since we lasted chatted and it's all the work of one obsessed fool (who writes HAIKU about how much he hates David North) and his sockpuppets. Now I'm just embarrassed for you. You are cutting and pasting from arguments taking place on Usenet/Google groups and posting them as if they are factual articles.

Scott Solomon

If you Google "David W. Green" Trotsky, you'll find that some other
"Marxist" forums have
picked up the story.

Here's a comment I posted on Joe Hargrave's "Myspace" Blog:

I don't have any problem with the fact that David W. Green ("North")
runs a successful company. And if I did have a problem? Who cares?
He still runs the company. My having a problem with or not having a
problem with it is completely irrelevant.

So why bother "outing" Dave? Well, reason #1, to be honest: piss him
off. I don't like Dave. It's really quite personal. I think Dave is
an autocratic blowhard scum bag who has wasted a lot of people's
time.

To be honest, reson #1 is not all that constructive. Could there be
other reasons that are more constructive?

Yes. Reason #2: The inner circle of the SEPtic cult is involved in a
commercial enterprise that generates $26mm+ in sales, and, assuming
15% EBITDA, could potentially have perhaps $3.9mm in money to play
with at the end of a year from the activities of the company.

This commercial enterprise came into existence as a result of 30 years
of hard work by high level cult members. I have no qualm with this
whatsoever, but what I WOULD point out to people thinking of joining
the North cult, donating money to the North cult, or investing years
of their lives into the North cult is the following:

What does it mean for the cult leader to not only run the cult but
also to run a successful enterprise most likely connected financially
with the cult? Suppose, for example, after putting years of work into
the cult, you develop differences with the cult? Suppose a majority
of cult members *agree* with your criticisms, and suppose a slate of
your fellow cult members manages to oust the completely ineffectual
North crew in a party election?

Now, let's be honest . . . that's an extremely unlikely event. First,
because North doesn't really have national meetings regularly where
something like this could happen. Second, it's extremely difficult to
communicate freely with other cult members. To my knowledge, there is
no internal SEPtic discussion board where members criticize the
leadership internally, away from the view of the Scott Solomons of the
world. Third, sorry to say, most members don't have very sharp ideas
(mostly they're a bunch of lackeys).

But, just for the sake of argument, let's suppose such an event
happened. You and your supporters win the leadership of SEPtic
putting forward a clearly insane political line such as (let's say)
trade unions *are* organizations of the working class!

Well, what happens to the corporate entity that supports the SEPtic?
I can't really see the North crew simply "walking away" from a company
they've put 30 years into that's now generating $26mm in sales. And
even if they did walk away, what would that mean??? I mean, do *you*
know how to run a printing company? I don't think so.

The point is: the crew that controls the money controls the party,
elections or no elections. Even though the early resources for
building the company probably came from donations from the
international sections of the political cult.

And the point is: the stake in the company really makes it less
imperative for the North gang to have any sort of political impact.
Just make the membership run around in election years getting stupid
signatures. Have'm write an occassional article for the web page.
Collect their dues and occasional donations. The inner circle gets
the perks, Dave gets to fly around the world.

The word for it is: opportunism.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics.socialism.trotsky/browse_thread/thread/4c525cb9cc8d4ee2/55127fd0b4d14c50?hl=en#55127fd0b4d14c50

DU was always a great site BECAUSE of thought-provoking articles from various sources (including the one you're gunning for).

Without something worth reading or discussing here, we all might as well go over to GD:STFU and look at pictures of the Obamas' dog.

Even if it's based on lies and distortions? That's not the view of the Administrators according to the forum rules.

Please go back and find every article posted here from WSWS and detail each instance of "lies and distortions."

Take your time.

:rofl:

Mustn't let the facts be seen, eh?

I'm not a Trot, don't belong to SWP or any sect, never have. I've also noted that some say the institutionalized "radical left" are often suspected of being front groups designed to siphon off legitimate dissent, e.g. here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=5850814#5851451

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=5950432#5950565

I post the articles because 1) they're generally honest with the facts; 2) their slant is a corrective to the msm/nyt/wapo spin; 3) they report labor & international news from a labor perspective; 4) to bug you, hamden.

unlike some, i think the financial & business connections of every opinion-purveyor should be public information.

it doesn't support your spin, that's why.

and the question will be will you lap it up and regurgitate it here with your usual WSWS link dump.

Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Wed Sep-16-09 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
129. I have no problem with you "outing" David North. As I've said repeatedly,
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 12:11 PM by Hannah Bell
I'm not a Trot, don't belong to SWP or any sect, never have. I've also noted that some say the institutionalized "radical left" are often suspected of being front groups designed to siphon off legitimate dissent, e.g. here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

I post the articles because 1) they're generally honest with the facts; 2) their slant is a corrective to the msm/nyt/wapo spin; 3) they report labor & international news from a labor perspective; 4) to bug you, hamden.

unlike some, i think the financial & business connections of every opinion-purveyor should be public information.
Alert | Add to my Journal

is disallowed, that pretty much rules out the entire msm, plus most "progressive" & "conservative" web info-purveyors - both "sides" of which pretend afl-cio = the voice of labor, when it's a bought-&-sold company union that's managed the decline of unionization since 1955.

If this abysmal bit didn't show up on the front page, I would have missed it, which would have been terrible.

Speaking only for myself, I couldn't care less what a bunch of nutcases think and do about each other.

They're, um, nutcases, irrelevant nutcases.

The only people who give a rat's ass about this matter are themselves pretty clearly only weakly connected with reality.

Lawyer Vs communists! It was like a Python sketch or a trip to Barcelona, only with more dated references than at a staged reading of 'The Women's Room'. So fun. Thank you all for being who you are! You make my job sooooo much easier!
Some of my least favorite baiters around here, baiting each other, waving factional flags and such, just like my older sister told me used to go on in the 70's! Satire or reality? Hard to tell, like all that McCarthy vs Pinkos stuff, just so hilarious!

&topicA quick googling of the term "Scott Solomon image"... apparently the sole source of each and every echo and permutation of documentation that you present (aside from anonymous postings by Facebook posters with no sign of any other existence than saying 'me too' to Scott Solomon)... and what did I find??

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=Scott+Solomon+image&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

The first image I see is from http://huntingpigdog.com/index.php?page=makims-dogs (about halfway down the page)... and is captioned:Kelly - Makim Outcross - Bred by Scott Solomon - With 72kg Boar

The most interesting part of this revelation, however, is the startling similarity between "Kelly" and your Avatar- Hamden:

Now... combining this uncontrovertable proof that you are infatuated with a dog that is the cartoonized image of Scott Solomon's dog Kelly... with the fact that you are repeatedly referencing echoes and affirmations of the assertion of Scott Solomon (see post #81 above, for example)... I can come to only one conclusion-

You, Hamden Rice, and Scott Solomon (who writes Haiku of Hatred about David North, apparently) ... are in fact the same person!!

I've never seen the two of you in the same room at the same time. Has anyone else ever seen the two of you in the same room at the same time?

Sorry Hamden/Scott... but the truth was eventually going to come out. Now might be a good time for some more David North Hatred Haiku...

source of info is a reactionary Trotskyite corporate cult. You're going to have to find an even crazier source to support your world view!

:rofl:

:silly: :crazy: :silly:

I hear SocialistWorker, is looking for what they call new "useful idiots."