As someone who was sexually abused as a child, I'm rather disgusted with ACORN and its apologists.

Back when I was being victimized I told some adults in authority positions (one of whom was a child therapist) about it but this was the 70s so when my abuser told them that I liked to make up stories they believed him. I was under the impression that times have changed and the default expectation is to report any and all claims of child sex abuse. I was wrong. I rarely let stuff on DU get to me emotionally but I'm shaking with anger reading some of the lame ass excuses and rationalizations being tossed around here because ACORN is a "liberal" organization that has done some good things in the past. Jesus God, have people here lost their fucking minds?

What I saw in those ACORN tapes made me sick. When someone comes to your office, I don't care what your position is, and tells you they want to import children for prostitution you call the cops on them. You don't shoot the shit with them. You don't "play along" because you think they're joking. You certainly don't sit there and give them advice about how to claim underage Salvadoran girls as dependents and collect tax credits for them! There's no excuse for that. None.

Funny you should mention Denny's. Remember back when it was revealed that they were discriminating against black customers and employees? It was a big PR mess for them and they made some big organizational changes.

Now let's see if you can figure out what the difference is.

Either ACORN didn't have a POLICY to do that or they did and several of their employees chose to ignore it.

:shrug:

They were just yukking it up with the College Republican Borat and his girlfriend!

And yet they got fired. Either they did something wrong or they didn't. You don't get to have it both ways.

As if we didn't know.

Is there some other reason I'm missing?

If it looked to them (as it does to most people who have seen even the heavily edited clips) that this was not for real, what was there to report?

I have the same problem with Planned Parenthood, an organization I highly respect, when several of their offices got "stung" by the fundie girl who pretended to be a 14 year old rape victim seeking an abortion. WTF didn't they call the police? Again, let the cops figure out what's going on.

you would feel obligated to report me to DHS, even though I am a middle-aged overweight white American?

If they had NO REASON to believe what was said was true, then WHY would they call the cops?

Has anyone talked to the office workers in question to get THEIR side of it?

Oh, yes, one of them said she knew she was being punked and played along - why, she didn't say. Maybe she thought it was some kind of gag that would reveal itself when it was over, and when she found out it wasn't, it was already on tape. But what the people asked was SO absurd, how could ANYONE take them seriously?

It WAS a set-up. They perpetrators knew it was a set up. The workers, I believe, knew it was not for real.

Mount Molehill.

The employees were colossally stupid to sit there and play along. They are ACORN for god's sake. An organization that is under constant attack. Again, I think they should have called the cops but they could have at least told them to beat feat.

And if we're going to go by the appearance of the pair, they look like a couple of healthy, affluent Yuppies. Not the kind of "crazy" people who tend to hang out in ACORN offices.

Th'guys in blue in m'town are up t'their eyeballs already n rilly wouldn't appreciate unneeded paperwork

Y'start reportin every possible "might could be a crime" y'hear about t'the police n y'could waste a lotta time talkin t'glassy eyed uniforms who know y'don't believe a word o'what y're reportin

Should I ha'called th'police everytime I ever heard somebody singin th'old Commander Cody song I'm gonna hijack one o'them big jet planes n goin back t'Tennessee? I don't think so

One o'm'friends used to regularly say We oughta line em all up against th'wall n shoot em whenever he heard th'latest Republican initiative. He was a nonviolent pacifist n there was no chance in hell he was gonna shoot anybody. Should I ha'called th'police n told em he was makin death threats whenever he said that? I don't think so

I was workin on a political campaign once n a staff member looked up n said Man! this is borin! Let's go rob a bank! Should I ha'called th'police? I didn't think he was gonna rob a bank, n (surprise! surprise!) he didn't rob any banks. Should I ha'called th'police? I don't think so

I dunno how many times I've been in a bar n overheard somebody say Oooh! I'm gonna kill him! Should I call th'police whenever that happens? I don't think so

Y'gotta use y'r good sense when y'interpret what people say. When folk talk crap t'me, I sometimes talk complete crap back. It sounds t'me like that's what happened here

Y'gotta use y'r good sense when y'interpret what people say. When folk talk crap t'me, I sometimes talk complete crap back. It sounds t'me like that's what happened here

Right, what the ACORN employees did was the height of good sense. :eyes: Gee, something tells me if they'd called the cops right away instead of playing along in the hopes that Ashton Kutcher was going to burst through the door any minute not only would they not be in trouble but they'd probably still have jobs.

So you're saying the fired ACORN workers were demonstrating common sense? Really?

which's, o'course, that (contrary t'yr POV) nobody should bother th'busy police by reportin mere BS

The one about how they shouldn't have bothered the police is the lamest. But whatever, assuming your premise is correct, why was it a good idea for the staff members to play along with the pair the way they did? How's that working out for them?

But you are off joining the right in their assault on acorn despite the fact that they fired the employees who played along with the rightwing asshats pretending to be whorehouse proprietors. You have yet to provide any evidence at all that the organization ACORN condoned in any way the behavior of the employees they fired.

You have yet to provide any evidence at all that the organization ACORN condoned in any way the behavior of the employees they fired.

I don't have to provide any evidence that they condoned it because that's not what I'm arguing. What I'm saying is that the entire organization either didn't have a standard policy to report all allegations of child abuse or they did have one and weren't doing a good job of training their staff to follow it. Sorry but the "few bad apples" excuse doesn't cut it with what happened here and the accountability lies with the people at the top. ACORN obviously realizes this because they just announced a hiring freeze and internal investigation.

Y'say let th'police sort it out

Sorry y'don't like m'disagreein w'that, but th'POV is just nuts

Is that what you're saying?

the consequences, but just like Denny's made some big organizational changes, ACORN needs to also. While what happened was absolutely despicable, I just feel that the whole organization doesn't have to be dismantled.

And if they can't get their shit together after a reasonable period of time they should go away. They are far from the only liberal organization out there that, despite people here acting like they are. I work with nonprofits and I can rattle off the names of 15 to 20 organizations right here in Phoenix who do what ACORN does.

Read this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6562915

That's a shockingly unfair statement for you to make. I called HiFructose out as someone who talks like a rapist but I made it clear that I don't know what he does IRL.

In a court of law, you would certainly be acquitted. In normal life, not so much. The rationale (or lack thereof, more relevantly) would apply equally well to me.

I was talking to another DUer and referring to his posting history. Rule Number One Of The Internets: If a post isn't about you then it isn't about you.

did on that film is a crime. That douchebags made the film doesn't change that. It pisses me off that they have people like that around. They need to purge their ranks.

When are you going to going to turn yourself in for Sarah Palin misappropriating funds?

have a little fun. As for me, anyone in any organization that breaks the law is a crook and needs weeded out. The organization needs to go after Fox for making this seem systemic. Bite me otherwise.

The filmmakers certainly did, at least in some states. What crime did the ACORN employees commit?

the apologists have moved from "it's a setup" (the marion berry defense) to "well, other orgs have corrupt people TOO" defense.

it's simply astounding.

i'm with you.

"other orgs have corrupt people TOO" is a perfectly reasonable defense against the actions being taken against the whole ACORN organization.

which is why i stand with john stewart's assessment, which is what i have been saying for days.

there is ample evidence of institutional corruption here.

Have you got an internal memo on how to give advice to pimps?

A case where employees giving advice to pimps were protected by management?

Anything?

No?

Well there you go.

Non-issue.

There doesn't need to be evidence of any such policy. The policy of every organization that works with the community is that any and all allegations of child abuse need to be reported to the proper authorities. I know you wouldn't agree to such a policy because rape and abuse are funny to you but that's what it should be.

This person claims that there is strong evidence that ACORN is institutionally corrupt.

This person needs to provide evidence for their accusations, or else their accusations should be assumed to be false and that person making the claims is out for a witch hunt.

"I know you wouldn't agree to such a policy because rape and abuse are funny to you but that's what it should be. "

Case in point.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6564015

Looks like they're doing a witch hunt on themselves.

I need to take it up with the person making the false accusations.

The fact that ACORN is running internal investigations is not evidence of institutional corruption. In fact, it's evidence against.

meaning that ACORN coached their employees to be an enabler to illegal operations?

If so, none of the offices except for those four seem to have got the message.

ACORN either didn't have a policy in place to report all allegations or they do have one and weren't doing a good job of training their employees to follow it.

Try visiting your local school and telling them you want to enroll your underage Salvadoran prostitute "ward" in classes. See what happens to you. Why? Because schools have policies about that now.

that ACORN did not have a policy to "report all allegations." It is also undoubtedly true that they did not train their employees properly. ACORN does not seem to be a tightly run ship.

But what is being alleged is "institutional corruption." The fact that most of the offices refused to help shows that it was not ACORN policy to enable illegal operations.

I am sure that ACORN would love to have a disciplined, educated staff with intergrity and high morals. The leaders may have those qualities, but that is not the pool they are drawing from when they look for paid help off the street. They are staffed by people from neighborhoods where illegal activity is commonplace, and where the police are not viewed as someone to be called when they see illegal activity. It is endemic to that part of society.

I have no problem with the criticism of the ACORN employees or with Congress pulling federal funding. It just does not add up to institutional corruption.

Anyone who doesn't want this continual distractionary bullshit is "defending abuse".

Love the complete lack of any logic or reason in this.

How much are you being paid to distract us?

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

:eyes:

Because that's what you do when you work for a community organization and someone tells you they want you to help them import underage girls for prostitution.

police?

Or is your poutrage just selective?

an adult, no I wouldn't.

:shrug:

I don't know what the point of your analogy is so we can just keep it going.

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

:puke:

But to some in here, their politics are more important than anything else.

I didn't know that.

I see the right has once again managed to score a major victory. How did they do that? When will we wake up?

states like SC have an average IQ of 86..
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.anthropology/msg/6863ee95fb79eb49?q=iq+by+state&hl=en&lr&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&rnum=1&pli=1

41) Alabama.......................90 $16,220 Bush
(42) Louisiana......................90 $15,712 Bush
(43) Montana.......................90 $16,062 Bush
(44) Oklahoma.....................90 $16,198 Bush
(45) South Dakota................90 $16,558 Bush
(46) South Carolina..............89 $15,989 Bush
(47) Wyoming......................89 $17,423 Bush
(48) Idaho............................87 $16,067 Bush
(49) Utah.............................87 $15,325 Bush
(50) Mississippi....................85 $14,088 Bush

Which means that ACORN hadn't bothered to train them to take any and all allegations of child sex abuse seriously. Even if they think it's a joke. Let the cops sort it out. This isn't about the right scoring a victory. This is about me being disgusted at ACORN and the people defending them.

Do you really think that training will ensure that *no* employees *ever* do bad things? Really?

And the vast majority people defending ACORN are not defending those few employees, and you damn well know it.

This is ridiculous.

I am NOT blaming ACORN for their actions. But I am disappointed, very disappointed, that ACORN has not responded by announcing a top-to-bottom audit of all their staff, new hiring standards and so on. I support the idea and existence of such an organization, I am not calling for them to be shut down, but they clearly have massive problems of quality control.

The heat is going to be on ACORN until they hold a news conference and make an unreserved admission of Epic Fail.

I just can't stand this dumbassery about smearing ACORN and anyone who's standing up to this RW bullshit because of those few bad apples.

Generally, we on DU do not accept the 'few bad apples' argument when it is raised in defense of right-wing goals. We should hold Acorn to the same standard that we would hold our opponents to, and if they don't admit and take immediate action to rectify the failures in their organization - and firing people is NOT enough for that - then they own the problem.

ACORN needs to show that not only does it have a policy of no helping people to bend o break the law, but that if someone comes in proposing such illegal behaveior, even if you don't or can't take them seriously, that ACORN's policy is to escort them off the premises and/or call the police, not engage in witty banter with them at the expense of legitimate business.

I'm sorry, but all this whining about 'they were set up, those videomakers are horrible douchebags' is beyond pathetic. I don't care if ACORN's new policy is to make every employee watch Borat and hire their own mystery shoppers, but they need to take ownership of the problem, admit they didn't vet or train their staff properly, and implement a solution. If we don't demand that, then we lose all moral authority when asking that of our political opponents.

Unless you think the orders to participate in scams were diligently researched from on high, and sanctioned by ACORN's leadership.

Do you?

failing to vet or train your staff in order to avoid the possibility of being party to illegal activity is a basic responsibility for any large organization, especially one with ACORN's stated goals. That's why responsible companies have HR policies and educate their employees about what's acceptable in the workplace, and why certification programs and professional ethics exist in the first place.

There are books, courses, and organizations devoted to ethics and good governance specifically for the nonprofit sector. Having a noble purpose does not exempt an organization for considerations of common sense, self-protection, or responsibility to its patrons and stakeholders. People in genuine need who rely on organizations like ACORN for help, as well as the honest and diligent ACORN employees are being hurt by this, and ultimately the responsibility for that lies with ACORN's management.

Any time management is trying to deflect the blame for a failure downward, it's reasonable to question the quality of their governance, regardless of whether it is a business, a non-profit, or the government.

And since you obviously don't think the orders to do this bad business came from on high, then you acknowledge that the "few bad apples" label applies fairly.

Thanks. Not that you honestly admitted it or anything. But I can understand that. Denial is a big deal.

My point is that it doesn't matter that ACORN management did not explicitly approve or encourage scams. They have a responsibility to pre-empt the possibility of situations like this by vetting and training their employees appropriately. They failed at that responsibility. They can't prevent every wrong step or mistake by front-line staffers in their offices, but they can have policies for recruitment and training in place to prevent that, and they have yet to show that. They need to commit to a public housecleaning and rebuild their damaged reputation.

Your attempt to question it into a question of direct culpability for what field workers did wrong is a diversionary tactic - exactly the same one employed by RW apologists when they trot the 'few bad apples' argument for as a defense against organizational failure. It's not good enough for them, and it shouldn't be good enough for us.

The reason it does apply to this issue is because these acts were not sanctioned from above.

I really can't put it any simpler than that.

"goalposts" :rofl:

...so enjoy your straw man argument.

It seems the CEO of ACORN is a lot closer to my view than to yours:

"As a result of the indefensible action of a handful of our employees, I am, in consultation with ACORN's Executive Committee1, immediately ordering a halt to any new intakes into ACORN's service programs until completion of an independent review. I have also communicated with ACORN's independent Advisory Council, and they will assist ACORN in naming an independent auditor and investigator to conduct a thorough review of all of the organizations relevant systems and processes. That reviewer, to be named within 48 hours, will make recommendations directly to me and to the full ACORN Board. We enter this process with a commitment that all recommendations will be implemented."

Ms. Lewis is specifically ordering the following steps be taken effective noon eastern on September 16, 2009:


No new intakes will be accepted into ACORN's offices for service programs, effective immediately;
An immediate in-service training for all frontline staff has been ordered within 48 hours;
ACORN's independent Advisory Council will help select an independent auditor/reviewer no later than September 18th to review all of the systems and processes called into question by the videos.

I just posted a thread with this information, applauding Ms Lewis' decision to review and overhaul their governance policies.

And sorry, but conducting an investigation in no way means they're that it wasn't a few bad apples. Not by a longshot.

If you care to cite any other examples where the "few bad apples" label does or doesn't apply we can go over those if you wish.

The fact remains... it applies here.

I realize that after 8 years of Bush/Cheney people forgot about the concept of the buck stopping with the person at the top. But really, when you run an organization and the acts of a few of your members ignite a massive scandal (whether it's fair that it did or not) you take responsibility for what happened. That's what the CEO of ACORN did.

Pat yourself on the back. You earned it.

The employees who were trapped by this righwing attack were fired, so it seems obviously that even if the whole thing was a setup and even if the employees thought that they were being had by an obvious clown and were just playing along, ACORN felt that it was totally against policy AND FIRED THEIR ASSES. Your upset is idiocy. You have been had by the right. You should feel used and abused by them.

you're above statements seem to indicate that you believe this type of request is commonplace and therefore should have set policy in place re: ACORN's lack there of. I am not taking anything away from the severity of child abuse, it is serious stuff. Common sense would lean toward calling the police, but c'mon, do you really think this type of request happens every day?

The sheer out of the ordinary nature of the request lends itself to being a farce. Policy by nature is reactionary...that is why we have so many stupid laws on the books. Something happened, people got upset about it, a law or rule was passed. It is this type of thinking that gets kids suspended for giving a hug or holding hands.

I am not advocating that all policy is unnecessary, but we have become a nation that has too many laws that common sense, good parenting, and a general sense of community covered in the past.


But don't you worry, I am sure ACORN will have a VERY specific policy on the books re: child prostitution after this is all over.

everything you say will end up on youtube or faux.. the younger people where i work are never serious and have no common decency. i can see how it happened.

i totally agree with you, i was also abused... i haven't seen the video.. no one has the sense to link to what they post around here..

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-september-15-2009/the-audacity-of-hos

everything else is at big government dot com

ACORN employees have done many good things in the past, and they have a reputation to uphold. There is no sense in jeopardizing it because you think a conservative Stephen Colbert wannabee is messing with your head.

If I was one of those ACORN staffers approached by the fake pimp, I'd show him the door and tell him to go straight.

It seems like to many people around here that would be the biggest issue.

Sad.

I am sorry that I can give you only one R.

:rofl:

That's not how this works. We don't have to watch someone say disgusting things simply because they are a victim. That doesn't negate the wrongness of the OP.

in order to further an illegitimate point.



On edit: Although I could be wrong. The OP could simply be mistaken.

Delusions of grandeur can often be fairly radicalized when challenged.

But maybe I'm being naive.

But the man has a history of posts mocking rape and DV victims. Yes, he has the mentality of a rapist. It's a shockingly common mentality. When I was in the Navy guys would brag about getting women passed-out drunk and taking advantage of them. One guy boasted about his trips to Thailand to rape 10 year old girls. We were stationed in Japan and what he was doing was perfectly legal at the time. Speaking of which, it was legal in the military and in many states to force your wife to have sex with you up until fairly recently.

One in 3 women is raped in her life. The estimates of men being being raped is as high as one in 10 in some reports. One in 4 girls are sexually abused, as are one in 9 boys. Rape exists and is prevalent because the rape mentality exists and is prevalent. It should come as no shock to anyone so I don't know why you find my comment about HiFructose to be so outrageous.

:hug:

:P

I was not believed when I reported the abuse that was happening to me. I had thought that in the intervening years that people, particularly those in helping professions, were expected to take any and all allegations of child abuse seriously and report them to the proper authorities.

I was addressing the other poster.

The right puts flaming shitbags on our doorstep every day, and every day we dutifully go out and get shit all over our feet, go back inside, and beat the dog. Who's the MORAN?

Those few people who didn't act right are to blame for this. Not the entire organization.

THAT is what the "apologists" are trying to convey to the "let's all dance to the M$M's tune" people.

NOT that it's ok to do blah blah blah...

Christ.

O'Keefe and Giles were the ones making the proposition to set up and operate a house of child prostitution. Your rage against Acorn in assisting this can only be justified by your rage against O'Keefe and Giles for proposing this. Without O'Keefe and Giles there is nothing to go along with. If O'Keefe and Giles proposal does not outrage you. Then your rage against Acorn is unfounded and irrational. But emotion doesn't always subscribe to logic an rationale. When it doesn't that is a problem you might want to seek help for. I don't mean that as a jab. It sound as if you have a lot twisted up feelings about your abuse that have been bottled up and the cork is about to Pop. If it hasn't already.

And if he came into my office talking smack about selling children into prostitution I'd be tempted to punch him right in his smug fucking face and I'd sure as shit call the cops on him. Right then. Let the police figure out whether he's joking or not.

Because she played a child prostitute in the film Taxi Driver.

I'm asking, because none of this in any way actually involves a child or prostitution.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42402120@N07/3926906322/sizes/o/

Now where is your rage against the police?

There can be no question that the ACORN employees had a moral obligation to report it when they learned of the alleged child prostitutes.


Prostitution involving adults is an issue open to discussion. Child prostitution is not. It's a violent crime, a heinous crime, and it must be reported by any responsible adult.

who were clearly in the wrong, I can't blame ACORN as a whole. But if there is evidence that criminal activity was to overlooked, then I think ACORN as a whole deserves to take a hit.

The latest excuses that the individuals were "just kidding around" are not sufficient.

"They were just playing along with them" and "But Republicans/conservative groups/fundies are so much WORSE" seem to be the prevailing ones. So what? There's no excuse for this and isn't our whole point that we're the good guys so we're supposed to be better than them?

The people with these videos are the people the cops should be called on.

If you're going to be putting people in public-facing positions of responsibility, then as an organization you owe yourself and your staff a decent standard of hiring, training, and so on. If ACORN had their shit together they'd be able to come out and say 'no way, we train our staff never to help people cheat or do an end-run around the law, and here are our training materials and tests to prove it'.

people have worked on jobs for years and even preached and fallen short.
I don't see people calling for all churches and banks to be shut down.

This whole thing is a set up to defame a good organization. Faux Noise excels in lying about everything, it seems.

I share your disgust.

There is no excuse for what those women did and said.

One thing that these videos seem to hint at is something that I haven't heard anyone mention.
The ACORN workers didn't seem very surprised by the mention of the underage prostitutes.
They seems a bit nervous or surprised that the pimp and prostitute were being so extremely open about their plans, but not about the plans themselves.
It makes me wonder if such prostitution is very common in the areas served by these ACORN offices.
Could it be that all around Baltimore, D.C., NYC and San Bernardino there are underage prostitutes that are so visible that its normal to some of these ACORN employees?

I watched this documentary called "Very Young Girls" on Netflix Instant Watch.
It was about just that.
Very young girls who have been pulled into prostitution.
Though the social workers did so much for these girls, they didn't necessarily call the police.
They did advise the girls who were planning to return to the streets, probably because they know the girls are not going to stop until they are ready.
Until then, they can at least be a tiny bit safer.
The social workers were always very clear about the dangers of prostituting as well as the immediate availability of programs and safe houses that the would always be open to the girls.
But, no, they didn't call the police.
I think there is a very grey area there.

Not that the women in the ACORN videos were acting like those social workers.
That was about tax evasion and trafficking.
And support was offered to the woman, from what I saw.

I could see them not calling the cops on prostitutes. But here was a guy claiming to be a pimp who wanted to traffic children for rape (because that's what it is - paid rape) and they were blase about it and giving him advice.

Perhaps if you have to deal with poverty day in and day out it can desensitize you to things. It's also possible the persons non-confrontational attitude is the reason why they were in that position to begin with. Normally it serves them as a social worker, in this case it made them look like a fool. People often fail when placed in ever growing absurd situations. See for example the career content of Sacha Cohen's work or the Daily Show.

The one women seems to know a lot about hiding money from your pimp. That's probably not a very nice picture of the reality of that persons life. I imagine there life didn't just get a lot better having lost their ACORN job.

I was not shocked to find in organizations dealing with a lot of poverty and drawing workers from those impoverished regions could find itself in the situations on those tapes. It's probably more a reflection of society in impoverished America than a condoning of the illegal activities these people seemed to condone. There is nothing funny about child prostitution, I have no idea why Jon Stewart thought this material was so funny last night:(

But there's no excuse for giving a "pimp" advice on how to import children and sell their bodies without being detected by the authorities. None.

and defending. I certainly understand how a person in an ever growing absurd situation can end up seeming to justify the obscene. I imagine psychologists might be able to give you a better answer for how these things work. (of course it's always possible this person is a horrible human being but somehow I doubt it). I understand to you it seems like 100 % of the time people should not be roped in by this stuff. But I think these types of interviewing tactics work. They only need work a few percent of the time to cause an up roar. You have to be careful when assuming you yourself could never be roped in. I imagine all these ACORN workers used to think the same thing. How do average Americans turn into despotic tortures? Most Americans claim they would never torture anyone. Yet studies show when placed in certain situations you too potentially can/will end up a torturer.

I think we all agree child prostitution is very wrong. It's based on that I rec'd your post. I think it's always important to point out we don't defend child prostitution. I don't see anything funny about two middle class white kids making fun of the poor (very often minorities) through an absurd prostitution routine. But as far as I know, no one at ACORN was discovered to actually be engaged in an actual real child prostitution ring. Any that ever are should be prosecuted.

Now tax evasion... that appears like that might be another story.

Good thread.

They were talking about paying taxes on illegal income, not about how to avoid paying taxes.

illegal activity. So even the pimp and the prostitute is by law obligated to report their earnings from their illicit business venture.

that are guilty be seen as someone to defend? This is about certain people not the whole organization one of which by the way has helped many many people who otherwise would not have been in a position to help themselves...

Some people still think Barry Bonds didn't juice either...

Ideological drive trumps intellect again.

Now, defending the deliberate enabling of child prostitution is a stretch but the mental gymnasts around here are well prepared. I'm with you, this shows deep flaws that run through the organization and if it isn't torn down then at the very least it needs a major overhaul.

it is always right and good and that which is republican and conservative is bad. I always chuckle when I see the left walk in lockstep just as much as the right. It has gotten so pathetic lately that I can only shake my head and walk away.

and I am disappointed to see that the progressive community is just as guilty of supporting and defending their tribe as the right is...

You are exactly right. It is the flip side of Free Republic tribalism.

This shit is making DU harder and harder to take. It can be cute when the issue is whether the goofball on the corner is justified in letting his dog shit stay in the yard. If he's a Republican, he's abusing the dog and polluting the neighborhood and being a cancer on society, but if he's a Democrat, he's a private property owner and giving a home to a needy animal, and the douchebags are those who criticize.

Not so cute when it comes to issues like corruption and child trafficking.

and it makes our arguments that less viable.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

:hug:

This constant attacking and attacking, nobody's falling for it.

ACORN will respond.

Its all good.

They based that on the Contents of the illegal video's. It's is a crime to do that. It cannot be used as evidence in any government procedure. Not even by a legislative body. The Introducing Sen. and Rep. have drawn The United States, The US Senate and US House into crimes against Acorn. Being agents of the federal government. The federal government has a duty to protect them from crimes against them. Call the Chief Justice to the Senate.

Biden need to start the ball rolling by going to the Senate in his Official capacity as the President of the Senate. He must make a demand. Show me the warrant authorizing the interception of the conversations in the video's you have proceeded upon. Federal law specifically protects communications in places of business. Acorns reasonable right to expect privacy is specifically set in law. If they cannot produce the warrants. Then disciplinary actions need to be taken. The initiating members should be expelled from the Senate for the crimes. Pelosi should do the same in the House. SHOW ME THE WARRANTS!

I'll stand with you.

Not. at. all.

That's why they chose the subject matter. They know it is the type of thing that gets people to forget all about the rule of law and innocent until proven guilty.

I bet it's a scam, maybe it's not, but the facts will tell. But the mere stating that someone might have done it and then using that whipped up anger and rage is a typical right wing tactic. This has happened countless times before.

Even if true, it doesn't mean the entire organization should be shut down. Just exise the guilty parties.

I'm sorry this has brought up bad memories for you, Hello_Kitty. I'm even sorrier that it looks like things haven't changed since the 70s.

I wonder how many people here have actually watched the video.

pimp/ho/child prostitute angle?

They want you to react viscerally and stop thinking so that they can convince you to paint an entire organization with a broad brush when in fact the ORGANIZATION has nothing to do with the actions of these employees - NO organization can prevent individuals from acting stupidly or illegally 100% of the time - not even law enforcement, the military, or the airlines which vet and monitor all of their employees far more extensively than anyone ever does in the rest of corporate America.

Should we blame all cops or blame law enforcement agencies as a whole because a few of their members may be corrupt or engage in brutality?

That is NOT rational and that is EXACTLY what the R/W wants you to do - resort to irrational unthinking behavior.

Doug D.

That Pimp/Child Prostitute getup was so bogus it was a joke.

No wonder the ACORN employees largely didn't take them seriously.

You think they were born yesterday?

I've been to some of those cities they targeted, used to live in the BX. If they are in the heart of the ghetto and two strange white people randomly come into the establishment looking for their services...its bogus.

They should also be subject to an external audit, since they get federal funding.

There is something wrong in an entire organization when at least 4 of its offices fail to report an allegation of child sex abuse to the authorities.

Just ask those newly-unemployed ACORN workers.

a few bad apples. I agree helping to promote teenage prostitutes is horrible. And these people have been fired. Fact is you can find horrible people in any huge or small organization and it isn't the organization's fault. The right wing have had it out for acorn for years as they get people out to vote who make the difference between the GOP winning elections and democrats winning elections.

The economist did a story about MBA schools and how they now taught businessmen and women to attack not just their competators but everyone in their way to profit. This is just the GOP attacking an organization which is successful at what its' mandate is.

Republicans don't care how they win. Keeping the pooor disenfranchised works just as well for them as keeping the poor ill informed about Democratic policies. All they care about is power and winning. And cutting taxes.

And I'd like to see the MSM spend as much time on them as they do on the offices where employees went along with it. But it doesn't change the fact that some ACORN employees advised a "pimp" on how he could hide income from his "prostitute" from the IRS and how he could set up a brothel with underage prostitutes. Perhaps if they had a rigorously enforced policy in place about reports of child sex abuse, they could have avoided this?

:hug:

Those ACORN employees had a duty and responsibility to report any suspected case of child endangerment as soon as the conversation turned to that. To not do so seems criminal.

trump conscience.