real women and the fashion industry

I'm sick of seeing size zero models on the runway. They are not a realistic representation of "real" women, the kind of women who should be role models for health and vitality.

Nothing proves my point more than these two photos.


(from Jackeen's wonderful thread at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8669488&mesg_id=8669488 )


from www.style.com
I can't tell if that's a model or a mannequin.


Mrs. O is doing more than any celebrity i know of to create the ideal for beauty, health and vitality for young women around the world. And she doesn't have to say a word, she is just being herself.
:yourock:

Do you think the two should be the same size?

:shrug:

Expecting 'women' to look like teenaged girls - and boys - is just weird.

Scary shit. It's like Whatever Happened to Baby Jane on a daily basis.

I see one woman at the Gelson's Market (Century City) salad bar all the time... must be in her 70's... dresses like she's 20, has obviously enhanced breasts, is skinny as a rail, tons of makeup over seriously over-tucked face... and only chooses red and pink colored veggies and leafy things for her salad... it keeps her skin pink, she says.

:scared:

Some friends from California were there and they noted how you couldn't tell how old any of the women were because women of all ages wore the same style - preppie - clothes and their faces weren't as affected by the sun.

And it's true, a teenage boy is rarely the same size as the average woman.

;)

One of his characters is complaining about modern women and describes the ideal as a "13 year old boy with peach pits in his shirt pocket."

as the OP referred to women.

and still in her "teens", that she's not a woman.

At what age does the transformation to womanhood take place?

:shrug:

the first time i changed my nephew's diaper.

Psst - There are those among us who do not and will not have children... We are still women.

by showing a real world example of someone who makes that dress look stunning and is not a size 0.

I don't mind the idea of a model being skinny, but I do wish there were a full spectrum of sizes to be seen in mainstream fashion modeling instead of that being the norm. In college I was really skinny and very healthy, and I hated people assuming I was anorexic or what have you just because I was incredibly active, so I don't hate skinny models at all, but I do wish we did not have such an obsession over it.

A far worse example to me is the photoshopped magazine cover. At least the models you see on the runway are real people who really look like that.

why does the fashion industry use models like that? They look horrible, yet the glamor of the runway captures the imagination of young girls who then starve themselves to try to look like those ridiculous models.

And what young girl or teen can afford a dress like that.

That we can agree upon (I hope).

Your theory is that certain images can cause mental illness? Or they awaken latent diseases and then the images become the proximate cause of the mental illness?

What other images cause mental illness? Do certain movies cause schizophrenia? Obsessive-compulsive disorder caused by Motor Trend?

Is there any proof to the assertion that thin models cause eating disorders? Is eating disorders a manifestation of a deeper mental illness that can come out in various forms?

It's odd to me that you'd want to discount any external influence with respect to eating disorders.

I think you're taking a vastly oversimplified view of mental illness.

Also, people become depressed after terrible events in their lives. So I do agree that outside forces can cause mental illness.

But isn't the trauma necessary for PTSD a little different than seeing some skinny models?

I just think there is no science that proves the thin models = more mental illness in young girls. And since there is no science to it, it is just blather and no reason to change anything.

What could it hurt making them use bigger models? Maybe they don't want to. And to force people to change their industry on shaky science is a dangerous thing.

women are buying the dresses, so they should be the market force that decides.

I've always detsested the fashion 'industry' but so long as so many women participate in it and endorse it, nothing will change. Well, unless someone finds some scientific evidence that it is harmful. I can't really single it out as 'the' cause of eating disorders, but IMO it is definitely part of it. Young girls are often influenced by these 'idealized' images.

I work in a creative field, and every time someone comes up with the ingenious idea of using "real" women in a campaign, it always gets shot down by the old-timers. Then after much convincing and assurances that today's women are different (from the women of two years ago), the real women idea is test-marketed and bombs big time, yet again. Never fails. Nothing will change until women put their money where their mouths are.

Just because a group of psychiatrists and psychologists get together and classify a range of behaviors and mental experiences as disordered and put them into a book called the "DSM" doesn't mean the classification is based on rigorous science. Maybe 50%? of disorders have empirical testing that validates their construct. Maybe. The rest is based on theory and a sampling of psychiatrists, not patients.

Eating disorders are only called such in the 20th and 21st century. There were "holy anorectics" in the middle ages, and fasting has a rich and culturally varied history, and there's not much historical evidence to suggest that people suffered from body-image-induced anorexia and/or bulimia until the 1960s. People might have vomited at banquets to make room for more food, but that was about gluttony, not body image.

Fortunately, our girls are being educated about eating disorders now. When I was in college, maybe 1/3 of my dorm hall threw up on a regular basis to keep their weight down. It was the early 80s, and thin was in. It was directly tied to that standard. My mother never had that experience, or her mother.

Would you be more comfortable calling it an unhealthy habit rather than mental illness? Or am I mischaracterizing/misunderstanding your position.

the canvas on which the illness is painted, so to speak. Anorexia and bulimia are still mysterious, but are thought to involve anxiety and the feeling of lack of control and horrible self-image. "This feeling will go away if only..." and the thin imagery, a "model" of "perfection" that is put in front of all of us, but to whom young women are susceptible, provides the fantasy of attainability. It's the same way a paranoid uses a gun or an ideology, which, for most of us, isn't a problem. "If I have this, then I won't be afraid." But it's ultimately harmful.

I don't think I got my point across very well here, but I do think that the anorexic will latch onto the model and just not "see" Michelle Obama, while the rest of us are horrified at the corpselike image and enjoy the sight of a healthy, happy First Lady.

read this ...
http://children.webmd.com/building-healthy-body-image-for-children
...
excerpt
From the ubiquitous photos of barely clad, bone-thin celebrities like Nicole Richie, Paris Hilton, and Lindsay Lohan to the emaciated models strutting their stuff on the cat walk, children today are inundated with media images that present thinness as a standard of beauty and elegance. Seeing these images over and over may lead them to think that their own bodies are not acceptable, leading them to develop unhealthy body images. And unfortunately, such negative feelings can sap self-esteem and set the stage for eating disorders like anorexia and bulimia.

You do realize the entire self-esteem promotion movement is ascientific nonsense that has done far more harm than good, right?

i don't want to get into an argument with you about the definition of self-esteem. It's a complex topic. I don't have time for it.

In this context, young women need to feel some sense of independence, self-worth and self-confidence in exploring who they are as human beings, that they should not feel so unsecure that they are drawn to define themselves in the image of others that have adopted dangerously unhealthy but glamorous lifestyles.

But I teach teenagers. The size in that picture isn't typical of teens, either.

I've been traveling to Eastern Europe for the last six years and the teens there are very thin. I would guess mostly because they walk everyone they need to go.

I teach right here in the U.S.. ;)

Some are thin, but rarely as thin as the picture. Some are overweight. I live in a rural area, so most of my students are perhaps more active than other places. They walk, they ride bicycles and horses and quads, they move stock, clean barns, work on fences, split firewood, etc.. They are also pretty intense about sports, with rodeo, basketball, volleyball, soccer, track, and football all being local favorites.

They camp, hike, hunt, and rock-climb; we have a world class rock climbing mecca a few miles away from our campus.

Most are healthy, active, and well-fleshed.

Who think they should be the same size... I call them The Scary Beverly Hills Lady Club... I'm not joking.

So I disagree with that "clothes look better on really really extremely thin people" baloney.

looked at it back on michelle and it fit better. still ugly. lol.

But the point is to sell the dress, not the model.

Look at the two pictures again. You see Michelle in the first one. You really notice her, and the way the dress curves around her body. Then in the second photo - you don't really notice the model. She's only filler for the dress. No distractions, just a dress.

the way it is designed, on michelle. so really that is the funny in it.

but I'd be more likely to want to buy it after looking at it on Michelle than on the model.

On the model it just looks blah. :shrug:

She makes every woman think about looking better, eating better and being a better person --- well all but the teabag women. : )

The more a model looks like a real person, the less a woman can imagine her own different body in it. By having a neutral stick figure model it, the focus is off the person and on the clothes. That's the general philosophy of the fashion industry.

http://www.engadget.com/2009/03/16/japans-hrp-4c-fashion-model-robot-unveiled-already-harassed/

:evilgrin:

The femmie bot is even more sophisticated now. She's manufactured a hip wiggle. :)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/5038076/Robot-model-debuts-on-Tokyo-Fashion-Week-runway.html

The dress is made for a standard size. It's a pain to resize the dress from a 0 to a 10.

i can't see it on my body when it's on a hanger or one of those anorexic models.

i can see myself in it when a normal woman wears it. most of the stuff i've ever seen that's "fashionable" doesn't interest me anyway. i think a lot of it is just fucking ridiculous.

...although it is kind of spring-y for autumn. Has the price been reported? It's very pretty.

No, I'm not saying she's fat. It might be the way she's standing , and her hips are a different size than her top. But look at this photo.

:spray:


:hide:

Maybe just good make-up, but Ive been pretty good at in the past.

So it's possible she's pregnant, but fertility starts dropping like a stone in the late 30s. A First Baby would be great, though.

The anorexic waif look is just gross. No other word for it: "GROSS"

Saying you think Michelle looks great is one thing... the rest is just mean.

I'm not talking about the women. I'm talking about what they make them do. It is simple abuse, nothing less. Starve yourself until you look like a skeleton or you can't do the runway. I don't find it attractive and can't imagine why anyone would, but it is the abuse of the young women and the brutal crushing of the aspirations of those who can't or won't comply that pisses me off. It is all just wrong.

And THEN there is the ancillary issue of what it says to the adolescent girls in our country - you have to be a waif to be attractive. How did we get to this point? It is all just wrong.

And I love Tyra for getting out of it, and doing what she's doing to send a different message now.

It's just that when I read your post, I couldn't help thinking of ectomorphs who are naturally very thin, and imagining how they'd react to it... that's all.

Natural body differences are a completely different issue. I just can't stand what they are coercing young girls to aspire to become.

I don't mean to be a scold... it's just that it seems like ectomorphic women end up being unintended targets of some of the comments inspired by the nauseating fashion industry.

It is the same problem with the stupid magazines at the grocery store check-out - "BE THIN! SUBMIT TO YOUR MAN'S STUPID FANTASIES! BE A SLUT, IT IS EASY! TEN TIPS INSIDE!" I have three daughters and a lovely wife. That shit is detrimental on all counts.

I happen to be thin, I have a very slight build and am naturally not prone to weight gain. I look a bit like that girl and I am Michelle's age. Of course such clothes look horrible on my body type and I wouldn't be caught dead in such a dress. There are clothes out there that are flattering to every body type. Sadly the fashion industry tends to use only one body type to model their clothes; the least common type.

All that aside, some of us who have that waif-like build do not feel it's an attractive body type, are self-conscious of it and reading really mean comments ain't fun.

Julie

.....the shoes are awful, and the lighting is funereal.

"That woman isn't that thin."

:eyes:

ETA: when your legs are virtually the same size from ankle to thigh, you are probably too thin.

And the dress isn't too short! :D But you're right that the lighting is cadaver-like, and she's posed as one. The Michelle pic is an action shot with colorful flags as a back drop, plus she's flanked by a good-looking man in a spiffy, shiny uniform and another in a great suit. Not really a fair comparison.

I agree that the woman is not sickly thin. There are plenty of people who look like that naturally and she does have flesh on her bones. She looks okay to me.

At least much more than I do Michelle.

I deny myself nothing when it comes to food (other than meat).

Am I gross?

For a female, she's not gross. For a male, she's a bit frail. And no self respecting guy would wear those godawful shoes.

It's no better pressuring them to be something they're not than pressuring girls to all be ectomorphs if they're not.

Some people are naturally thin, and that's just how it is.

I have always been tiny and have had a few friends who eat special diets to gain weight because they are so thin naturally.

It would be nice if, in our rush to make people of 'normal' size and over feel ok with themselves (which I agree is needed), we didn't call those who don't fit that bill "GROSS".

How nice is it to have a young, fashionable first lady? I just never really wanted to emulate Pickles' style for some reason.

yes skinny people should be ridiculed and made fun of. They are also not real people and should never be a role models for health and vitality. I got yah. That was an important point to make.


:shrug:

As if you're somehow unaware that very thin people are not just about the only models (not "role models", get it right) there are.

As for "health and vitality"... many people can be technically overweight but very healthy... and many very thin people can be very unhealthy. So... that's just meaningless.

the poster clearly implies skinny people aren't real and should not be considered healthly. You're not helping the negative tone of the original post at all. I suggest the poster meant "average" or "typical" not real. Skinny people are real people too. They laugh and cry and can be healthy and vital.

I've been making that point myself in other posts.

My problem was with your disingenuous post, which conveys your message no better than the OP's poorly-chosen words did theirs.

look at that photo. can you tell for sure if that's a person or mannequin? Seriously.
I was not making fun of her. I was pointing out a very very sad tragic fact about a human being who has been driven to practically skin and bones to accomodate the needs of the fashion industry.

Yes many people are concerned that the fashion industry draws from a small subset of shapes people come in. But all people are real people. I understand totally your meaning but very much disliked your tone. The nice person in the second picture is as real as our presidents wife. Some people really are size zero naturally. That they are presented as ideal or typical is what causes problems with body imagine in young women (and older too) because most people are not naturally size zero. Please don't declare people not real because they are not your shape. It certainly as demeaning as making fun of someone that's overweight.

they photoshop them til they don't look normal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4IQNcHGSXQ

Artificial Beauty Time Lapse
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QYOjTIOJQ4

If not, how much do I need to jack up my BMI before I can consider myself a "real woman"?

(A) are you aneroxic or bulimic? Did you starve yourself to become size 2? Are you unhealthy because of it?

Or

(B) are you naturally petite and slim?


If your answer is B, you're part of the wonderful diversity of sizes and shapes of women. Nothing wrong with that.

it is not people picking on slim, petite women. it is talking about a very real issue many of these women have to adopt in behvior and lifestyle in order to be in the industry.

for me, it is a big meh....

whatever. but i certainly understand the concern and the issue.

not a tough one

The girl in the above pic isn't anorexic (most likely), she's just 13. She'll probably fill out later, if she gets away from modeling, that is.

to me. A few pounds of muscle would vastly improve that impression.

If you only knew what I used to go through to bulk up my ankles and calves. And arms? Forget about it.

proper weight training (with sufficient, appropriate diet). My sister, who was anorexic much of her life, managed to put on some muscle with the help of a trainer, and she said she felt soooo much better.

I assure you that I am not anorexic, but have never been able to put on muscle, not even with weight training and lifting.

I have breasts and thighs now so it's been a while since someone accused me of being anorexic, but still very little muscle. I'm hoping that my future kids end up getting some of my husband's stockier genes.

Point being, being thin comes with body image issues too. And it's hurtful when people suggest that we are not "real women".

Like you, I was perfectly healthy. And excelled in two sports. Never suffered for lack of male company either, and from your post, can gather you didn't either.

These threads are just payback for those that rag on the obese, but the fact is, there are many body types that are natural and normal. On the internet, everyone gets to be a critic.

"Genetics and metabolism play a huge role."

i believe you, i believe this is true of everyone.

but when we fat people say that, we get jumped on and told it's just as simple as "calories in, calories out" ... so according to that logic, you should just be able to eat more and move less and put on the weight you "need." ;)

waiting for one of the calories in-out simpletons to jump on a thin person for saying what you said.... bet it doesn't happen.

Sorry, the scientist in me compels me to say that.

One of the reasons I am thin is that I am easily satiated. But when I do overeat, say on shortbread cookies, it always goes to fat, not muscle. Even thin people have cellulite. :(

But for sure genetics and metabolism play HUGE roles. It isn't possible to gain weight without eating, but the amount of calories it takes to gain a pound of weight vary a lot, depending on metabolism and other factors.

another poster pointed that out too. I am sorry. I didn't mean to offend you. My real concern was directed towards people who deliberately starve themselves to look like skin and bones. It's unhealthy, and anorexia can be fatal. You are clearly not in that category.

:(

And I know you didn't mean anything by it. It's a soft spot with me, admittedly.

:hug:

When I shop I have to go to the "Misses" section. If I go to the "Women's" section, there's no clothes there for me.

Sends a bit of a weird signal, you know? What, am I forever a not-quite-woman or something?

not that the ultimate customer is supposed to look that way; it's that the super skinny model is basically a clothes hanger. That's the point -- she needs to be skinny enough to function with respect to the clothes, like a hanger. The clothes drape off of a hanger or a super skinny girl the same way.

Not that I agree -- it's just what I've been told.

On edit: I see Gwendolyn made the same point in post 11. The idea is that the model is neutral and the clothes hang off her like off a clothes hanger -- not necessarily that this is how the clothes are supposed to look on the ultimate customer.

The model, not so much.

the woman on that show look sexy aka normal.

never seen Mad Men, but if the women on that show are more Rubenesque, then those are figures that you certainly don't see anywhere near as often as you do the super thin ones.

That only goes for women, mind. ;)

women on the show.







That's offset by January Jones, who plays Betty Draper, wife of Don Draper (John Hamm). She's more 50's housewife in the June Cleaver / Harriet Nelson mold.





Then there is Elisabeth Moss, who plays the only female "executive", Peggy Olson. She has a body type in the middle of the two ladies above.






The main thing is that ALL female body types are represented well.

I always thought 'plus size' was supposed to mean FAT.

So today, Marilyn Monroe would be considered Plus Size. It really does send the wrong message, doesn't it?

It's disgusting.

This is not a fucking size six. Or eight, even.

It's impossible to have a great hourglass shape without some padding!

Stick figure with fake tits and butt implants is all the rage. :P

"Why do you smear goo over your face and hide your roses, then put fake roses back in your cheeks with rouge?"

http://www.ienhance.com/procedure/description.asp?ProcID=152&BodyID=&specialtyid=1

There are pectoral implants for men, now, too!

Not all of them, but Betty and Joan for sure. Bright red lipstick, high, coifed hair and big hooters encased in those steel uplifter bras of the time. Lots of cleavage in that show and overt sexuality on the job of the kind most women eschew today. Occasionally I've cringed when I watched it. I don't think many women are dying to go back to that era but can see where men would love that show.

Friends was really popular as well, and managed to depict average, normal-sized women. But anyway, that's a tv show which abides by different rules since you want the audience to identify with characters and personalities. The fashion industry is about selling clothes and the model is backround. Apples to oranges.

And nobody took pity on the poor Prez -- doesn't he deserve an umbrella, too?

;-)

The First Lady is beautiful! And the dress is beautiful on her!

I wonder who decided we should be waifs.

There is a high school down the road from me, and the young ladies who walk by my house are mostly size 14 and larger. There are very few, I'm talking 5% or fewer, who look like the waif pictured above. The majority, I would guess, are around a size 16/18.

I have size 10 to 20 in my closet; I know of what I speak here. I have a good eye for women's sizes... worked at Buffums (there's a blast from the past) for several years and became a personal shopper. I could look at a woman, go to the racks, and find perfect fits 9 times out of ten.

so at least the runway models don't appear to be influencing many people.

They are supposed to be super skinny so that the clothes they are wearing look really good and people will buy them. The problem is that somebody decided somewhere along the line that models are the epitome of sexiness. They really are not.

Even if she IS a teenager (or IS she?),

Totally off topic, but I don't like long necklaces with necklines like that. The same necklace or similar, hitting the collarbones or little below I would like much better. Visually, for me, the necklace seems fussy as it is competing with the dress...just me and my eyes.

I think she is remarkable in that dress though.