Killing some sacred cows...

1.- We do not live in a Capitalist country... perhaps after you all watch Capitalism: A Love Story you will finally get it. We live in a corporatist state... a fascist state.

2.- Most of you are not MIDDLE CLASS, but working class. Period.

Once you get these two things through the haze of propaganda, then you will realize the other sacred cow that needs to die...

3.- WE ARE NOT a first world country. I repeat, WE ARE NOT a first world country. First world countries have health care, education, housing and other things that are a right. We don't. We have far more in common with the Mexico I grew up in than we do with oh Canada.

Oh and there is a final one. You want to live in a country where you will not starve, be thrown to the street, or struggle to pay the bills... well guess what? It is high time that you realize working people around the world have had to fight for it. It is time to stop identifying with the man and identify with your fellow workers. Yes Viriginia, there is a class war, and damn it we are losing.

Now go watch the movie, and start breaking away from the haze... get angry and get ready for a fight.

Oh and one last canard that needs to die... the politicians are not there to protect you or me... with a few... as in the fingers of one hand, exceptions.

And those cows need to die...

K&R

the one thing you really had to do today was attack an animal-rights group!!

Really?

:shrug:

and "Man's Dominion Over Nature" . . .

which are the licenses to elites to exploit nature, natural resources, animal-life,

and even other human beings according to various myths of "inferiority."

It's all part of the same patriarchal/organized patriarchal religious effort for total

control by violence when necessary.

This is vastly different from the Old Religions which preceded it and which was based

on nature.

Capitalism is not only exploiting human beings -- it has exploited the entire planet to

the point of grave damage and perhaps more . . .

Sacred cows get butchered, sacred PETA tries to save them.

geesh!

would be those who always chime in about Godwin's Law, in reference to 'fascism'.

:eyes:

absolutely true!

2.- Most of you are not MIDDLE CLASS, but working class. Period.

Actually, I prefer 'genteel poor'. :)

troll around some of the "good" parts of outer miami or homestead, or drive around in deep south Texas

And we still have some pretty ratty looking trailer parks, the few that survived the land grabs and redevelopment craze. But those trailers, while old, have functional indoor plumbing, clean water supply, sewer, laundry facilities, 24/7/365 electricity, air conditioning and heat, and usually a car parked outside.

as a medic. They usually move from not having indoor plumbing to having all city services within 10-20 years, trust me that will not happen in Sacramento, for example. That modern day hooverville will face eviction as soon as the poor are too much for the city to bear, or somebody in the city council decides enough of them poo' people.

They also have a car, in many cases... a cucaracha, that barely works, like the ones here.

Oh and they may have heat, in theory, but many of our working poor have to chose between putting food on the table or heat in the winter and one bad winter can do a number.

People think that since our working poor have all these "luxuries" which are not affordable, then they are better than they are in other places. Oh and seeing a poor mexican go to the General Hospital wondering how to pay for the doctorcito is not that different than Mary going down to County wondering how the hell to pay for that ER visit, or delivery.

I didn't grow in that poverty, but the poor are all around you... and they are struggling just as much as the people down in Juarez, and people really need to get their head out of it. Yes, I have met really poor Americans... the kind that stand in front of me at a store, and break into tears because they cannot afford the gallon of milk, never mind they are on foodstamps.

They are there, working at places like the Home Depot, or bagging groceries, or doing "independent contracting." People need to open their eyes. We are all the working class, and there is a class war, and damn it we are losing.

It's amazing how many people view items such as HDTVs and air conditioners as "necessities," when they in fact are "luxuries." A television is not a necessity, but according to American culture, it is, and the bigger it is the better. These are the same damn people who scoff at and complain about such "frivolous spending" at the government level on education, health care, food inspection, etc.

I remember earlier this year hearing a couple stories on the radio discussing a study that found x% of households have color tvs, x% have air conditioning units, x% have microwaves, and the right-wingers kept pointing to this study saying, "See, there's no real poverty in America. Look at all those people who own televisions!" So annoying...

Great post!

on lay away or other even less friendly means. So you keep people tied to the need of paying for this crap... and down.

Now AC.,, in some sections of the country I'd say they are needed, or for that matter our housing design has made it almost necessary... but that is another discussion.

and right now the tent cities in Sacramento are not that different than the Ciudades Perdidas in Tijuana. Ok, so they have grass under the tents instead of dirt that becomes clay... big deal.

Hell. Sniff around some of the trailer park cul-de-sacs in rural Mississippi, or the tumbleweed towns in the Rust Belt. Shit, ever been to Compton?

http://www.family-to-family.org/pembroke_illinois.htm

Pembroke, Illinois School District — With support from the Parent Coordinator at the Lorenzo R. Smith Elementary School, and the Pembroke School District’s Superintendent of Schools, Family-to-Family now serves families in the Pembroke/St. Anne/Momence area of Illinois.

Pembroke, located 70 miles south of Chicago, is the community that first inspired the founding of Family-to-Family when it was featured in a front-page September 2002 New York Times article. Pembroke is:

Populated by 2,784 residents, primarily African-American
Lacking a bank, supermarket, police force, barbershop, gas station, bookstore, and pharmacy
Without a bus or train connection
Made up of many roads paved only with sand or gravel
Many of its homes are crumbling shacks with dirt floors and no running water. Some homes feature tires on top to keep the roof from flying off. Many households have no telephone service. There is one doctor in town. In 1999:

More than 51% of Pembroke families with children under five were below the poverty level.
43.4% of household incomes were below $25,000.

Per capita income was $9,642.

In addition to sending food boxes to these families, Family-to-Family is acting as the conduit between Litlife, a literacy consulting company, and the Pembroke school district with the goal of implementing “The Family Power Book”, a unique after-school book club designed to improve the literacy skills of local children and their parents. After piloting the program here and in our Washington County, Maine community, we plan to expand the program to other communities.

there was a town - Kilbourne - that had homes with dirt floors. That was 20 years ago. Hoping it has changed since... but I don't see how as there is no more industry done there now than there was then.

Drive thru downtown Ft Scott....Kinda reminds me of Dresden during WWII.

Some are called Indian reservations, others inner cities and still others trailer parks.

Capitalism doesn't work. Anything we've ever received in the way of benefits were taken from the capitalist system by blood and sweat and tears and shoe leather.

Capitalism doesn't improve our lives, folks......and it was never meant to.

Not to defend Adam Smith but the too big to fail is NOT capitalism, but corporatism. Adam Smith's remedy to that one... break down the monopoly... in fact, his answer to Wally Mart, BREAK DOWN THE MONOPOLY.

The Free Marketeers are corporatists, not Capitalists. If they were... Wally Mart would not exist, and the Sherman Anti Trust Act is very capitalist. And I mean it in the small c that Adam Smith wrote about, not what passes for "capitalism" at the local MBA program.

the point of the comment is that capitalism in it's pure form is simply not going to give the greatest number of people a living wage. It never has. The idealism is there, but the fact remains that unfettered capitalism, large or small, does not provide the necessities of life for most people.

Adam's Smith's invisible hand does not work. For capitalism to work, it needs to be hedged with rules and ringed with fences made of laws. It has to be tamed.

Pure communism has never worked for the same reason; it's great in theory, but the fact remains that most people are simply not willing or able to work for the good of the system.

I'm all for breaking down the monopoly, but the truth is that a kindler, gentler capitalism doesn't exist except in the realm of idealism.

book and not like the free markeeters think it does.

The point is that like Marxism it has never existed and it will never be.

It is what we choose to call our current form of fascism, but it has as much in common with Adam Smith as the USSR had with Marx... which is to say none whatsoever.

Paraphrasing there.

But capitalism has been proven time and again to be the best system to create wealth and improve the lives of the people.

It's not perfect. But the alternatives suck even more.

Look at the quality of life in any communist country.

I saw what East Germany looked like after the fall of the Wall. West Germans are still paying taxes to try to bring that part of Germany up to this century. I had friends from there before the fall. They told me the horrors.

China would be an economic basket case now if it didn't run a capitalist system under the communist veneer. So that can't be considered a communist success.

The solution is as you say. We need capitalism. We do. But we can't let capitalism run amok. It's the useful beast of burden we have to keep control of lest it trample the crops.

and I don't hear too many in Norway complaining. Should I mention their Standard of Living is much higher than ours?

Oh wait that is Social Democracy...

Never mind.

Oh and what we have is NOT capitalism either, if it was the Sherman Antitrust would be used Regularly to bust monopolies which are not capitalist either.

They are loaded with abundant natural resources such as oil, gas and minerals. They're a net exporter by a wide margin. They are also extremely protectionist of their industries and markets.

If oil dies, so does Norway's social system. It's a big worry in Norway now. Yes, I am friends with a Norwegian so I get this first-hand.

Norway is also one of the most expensive countries in the world to live in.

and they are NOT a capitalist country by your definition.

Neither is the US, by the definition used by the creator of the system, but that is neither here or there.

YOU said it is the best system... well cronyism, and monopolies are the best if you happen to be the 1%, not so much if you are the rest...

The truth is, you need to wake up from the whiff of heavy propaganda.

Oh and one last thing, social democracy means higher taxes... but also a higher standard of living, and something we have lost in this country... civic virtue.

The capitalism is regulated, and supports the socialist state.

In case you didn't notice though, the whole thing is in jeopardy if they're money maker supporting that system fails. Such a system can't survive in most places such as here because they couldn't afford it.

SOCIAL DEMOCRACY?

I know they have a mixed economy... we did as well at one point... then came Reagan

At least, what they'll have for a little while before it all crashes.

They also have the advantage in the attitude of the people. Fewer are willing to abuse the system, while here we already have welfare queens pumping out babies by the millions just to get those government checks.

The basic point, because something works in one place doesn't mean it will work in another.

should be dead by now.

I guess even faux liberals buy it.

I think we are done. You my dear are part of the problem, not the solution.

As to crashing, will see...

And we never had it so good because people like you bought the shit sandwich. Problem is, in-spite of the evidence, you keep buying the shit sandwich as your use of a very REPUBLICAN talking point, far from based in reality, proves to at least me.

Go watch Moore's movie, I doubt you will be even a smidgen of angry... after all those "welfare queens" on the screen are more the Wall Street types... don't expect you to get it though.

Gaming the system is rife in our society. Here apparently, millions would prefer to life off of everyone else than try to be productive themselves. It seems that is not so common in Denmark, or Sweden for that matter.

I haven't seen Moore's movie yet, but I will.

Based on his past movies I predict he will make some very good overall points, but blow it by his need to twist the truth and, in cases, outright lie.

you also against a living wage?

Then it must be a right-wing talking point. Is that how it is?

As far as living wage, it depends on how you define it. Basic food, clothing, medical and shelter? Of course. A new car, big TV and regular vacation trips? Not on my dime.

starting with the welfare queen, THAT IS A RIGHT WING MEME, created during the Reagan Administration. You drank the kool aid.

As to living wage, that means live a descent life. If that means being able to save to get a tv fine by me... but also be able to pay for the rent and the medical (Universal Health care would be the prefered means), and food...

Minimum wage laws don't provide that.

Hell, many jobs who pay "well" are not even living wage either.

(No, ten bucks an hour is not living wage)

At least you have some hope.

Just because a right-winger gets it right doesn't make the facts untrue.

they do exist... they are the bankers and other heads of industry, firmly on the guv'ment tit.

Alas you will not hear that on ahem Newsmax.

From the welfare queens to the industry execs. All of them must be stopped.

But to this subject it is the welfare queens who would suck us dry in a socialist system. Right now both are sucking us dry in our semi-socialist, semi-corporatist system.

But realize that corporatism doesn't just mean the large corporations. Any large groups that people form get to have a seat at the table, so it's corporations, religions, unions, racial groups, etc., who run the place.

Europe and the Scandinavian countries are pretty much neo-corporatist, the power being shared between the corporations, unions and the government.

the rules, regulations, laws which kept capitalism in check --

GOP/capitalists/elite worked on that for decades to destroy New Deal safeguards

and the safety nets.

Unregulated capitalism is merely organized crime.

doing what it's designed to do -- move the wealth and natural resources of a

nation from the many to the few!

And, unregulated capitalism is merely organized crime!


:evilgrin:

and anyone who has ever played Monopoly knows how that ends.

I am still working through the disconnect, so bear with me.

The call to action as I saw it was to vote - but for those of us who watch c-span committee hearings for fun when we can (and see the sausage being made), do we even trust our vote? Classic example of Baucus (R-Wellpoint) penning a white paper in the fall of 2008 extolling the virtues of single-payer and then refusing to vote for a watered-down single-payer OPTION in 2009 because he won't vote unless everyone else will? Leadership anyone?

I could get behind the message of Capitalism if it weren't for the reality of who gets what bills passed when the pedal hits the metal...

Edit to add -- I am frustrated, but don't know what to do. The movie left me feeling overwhelmed. Sorry for being a Debbie Downer, but I am a foot soldier and I need leadership on this as I don't know where to begin.

that is one of the things people need to do. It was more like what the workers at the Door and Window Factory did. The first sit in in decades. It was people refusing to leave their houses... it was taking an active part and willing to get your skull bashed if need be. He meant fight for your rights... by all means. The vote is but a minor one.

Oh and yes, I too watch C-Span and follow things like oh the HELP committee and watch sausage made... YUK

I need help. I am willing, but I am not a leader. Like the old Ron White monologue on the "emergency system" put out by DHS - no one knows WTF to do when it goes to orange/red. We are at economic 'red' and I don't know WTF to do.

Guide me.

I am with Mike (and you), but need to know what to do.

we need to join en masse.

We need to demonstrate, take to the streets, write letters... talk to neighbors. And yes, if them union organizers come down... join. Right now we need to get EFCA passed, so people can start to organize again. Oh and we need to go down to the local bar and talk to the local "rednecks" and start taking the scales off them eyes. This is the kind of grunt work that nobody wants to do.

Oh and leave god, gays and guns to the side. It is the economy stupid. Oh and if this means NOT voting for the two major parties so be it. You are lucky and you have somebody like Kucinich, keep them in. And so it goes.

But the system is not the only way, and labor got what it got outside the mass media and in working yards.

and strike proof?

Florida teachers come to mind. Illegal to strike. Been there during negotiations.

On Kooch, I love him, but am not in his district/state. I would take him, Marcy Kaptur, Alan Grayson or Anthony Weiner in a heartbeat. As it stands, I get to yell at the (R) brick wall I am 'blessed' with.

I recently got laid off from corporate and am looking to return to a union staff position, which is my passion. Wish me luck. Today, I feel like I am spitting into the wind.

and it will take people doing all of the above and more to turn this around.

:toast:

In the "good old days" when Americans manufactured most of the goods we purchased, then workers had leverage with the corporations by withholding their labor. By stopping production at one of a group of competing companies, for example, GM, Ford, or Chrysler, the companies still producing would have a competitive edge in selling products, so the company not producing would have an incentive to negotiate with its employees.

Nowadays, with most production overseas and people scrambling for fewer jobs, the unions, and Americans as employees, no longer have much clout.

We see in the problem with getting useful health care reform legislation passed, that many of our politicians have sold out to the corporate interests. We will be lucky if we get even middling health care reform.

There is one area where Americans can stop playing the suckers game, but I think I am the only one who has suggested it, and when I have posted this idea, I get no feedback.

The only clout we have left is as consumers. If Americans refused to so willingly buy imported goods, and told retailers they want to be able to buy American made goods, and a lot of people actually acted on this demand buy not spending money, then maybe we would see some companies actually start making goods here.

Note to savers: Do NOT put your money into the stock market. It is little more than a Ponzi scheme. You are guaranteed to lose it.

and trust me, I TRY MY BEST to buy made in the US, preferably union made, stuff when we need to.

It is harder than hell.

So when I find a US made product, I make a point to let management know, not that it will matter.

My point is that as long as the corporations make profit selling imported goods rather than American made goods, they will just ignore any efforts by the people to have any influence of any kind in the economic sphere.

Americans no longer have much clout by withholding their labor, as the corporations just open a factory overseas. However, if large numbers of Americans refuse to buy goods, that cuts off a source of profits and may get some attention.

Currently, American consumers are like drug addicts running up huge credit card balances to buy the latest imported junk. When Americans so eagerly keep feeding the beast, why should he ever change.

we need whole sale refusals to by crap, and instead buy locally

but one thing will not do it.

Oh and we need to march, make noise, make demands, oh and I forgot, we need to invest ourselves in the country... co-ops are one way to go.

Me found out where the bakery sells the bread in MM movie, guess what bread I am buying tomorrow?

You guessed it.

:-)

And, good OP. This "glimpse" of reality by Americans is long overdo. Most Americans live in a fantasy world, and refuse to deal with issues. It will take many more posts (maybe using a 2 by 4) before enough people catch on.

Other meaningless and misleading catch phrases that need to be dealt with are "free trade" and "global markets".

:-)

The only clout we have left is as consumers. If Americans refused to so willingly buy imported goods, and told retailers they want to be able to buy American made goods, and a lot of people actually acted on this demand buy not spending money, then maybe we would see some companies actually start making goods here.

I don't know if it's the ONLY thing we have left, but certainly this has been discussed for
20 years -- and the idea doesn't take off.

union in Detroit and they soon found out it was bullshit. Our leadership sold us out and wasn't prepared to go to jail for the membership, so she gave away the farm. Needless to say, she was voted out at the next election.

but like everything else there is a tipping point. It gets to the point that if you fire your employees, you will only be hiring more strikers.

We are reaching that tipping point.

The US has revolutions regularly, I just wonder if this will be a peaceful one.

nothing to lose. I'm hoping for a revolution.

patriarchy and its organized religions and its system of capitalism is the enemy --

The New Deal put rules, regulations, laws in place which kept capitalism in check --

GOP/elites/capitalists worked for decades to remove those protections and the social

safety nets -- if you recall, in the Bush years they were ready to overturn Social Security

and would overturn Medicare if they could.

Unregulated capitalism is merely organized crime -- and that's what we're suffering from

now.

GOP is also fighting a new consumer group to protect citizens from the criminal activity

of capitalists.

You can't feel "ovewhelmed" when you realize we are all in this together --

Though you also have to understand that the GOP/elites take every opportunity to frighten

you and to make you fear your fellow citizens.

Keep looking at this from the highest perspectives --

:applause:

I will see that.

THANKS....

:-)

:hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

When I saw that picture, I laughed so hard I threw my back out.

It's so brilliant it HAS to be photo-shopped, and if it's not?

It's time to pack up and go or get a rocket launcher because baby, we're freaking done as a country.

Another C-Span watcher.

:hi:

officials who are not standing up for the people.

There is nothing that would thrill me more than a general strike, and I am a small business owner. Even if only half the workforce stayed home for one weekday it would be a huge shock to the system. No shopping, no sports events, no traveling. Just stay at home and read or do cleaning or work on the car or the house or your garden or compost pile or lounge around.

I remember reading about a call for a general strike back before the election hoopla got rolling. It was to stop the war, but there was so little notice that no one struck.

Rec for an outstanding thread.

but so few that nobody noticed.

In fact, there were TWO general strikes called during the Bush administration...

The one you are referring to was pushed by Malloy.

And yes, it was me and a few others who did... perhaps it was the beginning of something... don't know.

I do hope that more come and that more people participate. The only people I would make an exception for are EMS, FIRE and Medical personnel, unless we can figure a way to do this without affecting basic services.

the EMS, Fire, and Medical folks out of the equation so that isn't used against the strike organizers or the strike itself. There's going to be a massive anti- backlash by the reich wing and probably the Obama administration. Too much disruption of the status quo.

none of us would be facing the world we have today..

It was a dark time....and even those who were in the streets....got no media attention.

Or is that your own creative interpretation.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Thank you! :hug:

latest movie offering to convince, or un-convince me of any of these points http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HECMVdl-9SQ&NR=1

Do you control the means of production? To use a very marxist definition?

If you do, then you are perhaps middle class. Otherwise we are working class. I have no delusions of it... and the middle class delusion is meant to keep people thinking they do, and they are better than them poor workers.

to say there ever was a form of capitalism that was not exploitative. Capitalism is defined as making money by trading money for money. long before that stage evolved, it was already necessary to pay people less than their labor was worth if you wanted a profit.

as in the body, there are narrow sectors where competition is a good thing. elsewhere, it does harm. similarly, it's good to have a fire in the fireplace. it does not follow one should light the drapes.

can we please get back to the difficult business of being mortal humans soon, and stop wasting our precious thimblefuls of life on a process that has all the moral integrity of viruses spreading where they will?

just like a lot of people thoguht the USSR was marxist. Neither have nuthing in common with the writings of both men.

Mr. Smith hated monopolies and wrote that the wealth of the nation lay in the small shop keeper protected from the monopolies like the India Company... and Marx talked about the workers controlling the means of production.

Well getting closer to Smith's ideal is easy in the US... in theory. We even have the law in the books... the Sherman Antitrust Law. So it is time to organize and get some things done.

1.- Break monopolies

2.- Get EFCA passed, and all those right to work states... well EFCA preempts that crap.

3.- LIVING wage laws need to be passed, not minimum wage, LIVING WAGE.

and people need to be willing to fight for that.

Except that I fear that with some of the globalization that has happened that it may actually be close to impossible to break up all of these monopolies so they obviously must be nationalized if that is the case.

Sometime the toothpaste cannot be put back in the tube.

in a very nasty way...

And if that happens it will not be just the US... when 1% own 95% of the wealth things do happen. In the US there is anger over the let them eat cake we have seen out of DC... both parties... aka the elites. But the same is happening in other places... ironically not in places with a Social Democracy at work.

I'm just saying some of these shit is too far spread not only through our country but most of the world to the point that we can't really break it up and some of it will just have to become a function of the state.

The toothpaste never goes back in the tube but the tube it's self can be rendered and destroyed.

mostly because people have had it.

In the US a civil war is not that unlikely. It should be between the haves and the have nots, but I fear it's coming. At that point the very wealthy will just go... SAYONARA.

In other places of the world there are rumblings...

We may be entering another period of instability that may lead to something uglier than just the last fifty years of low intensity warfare. In the end we will get a new tube...

And there are economic and ecological reasons pushing this. The new world order is unsustainable...

:applause:

:yourock:

Or, as Utah Phillips used to say, "If you have a boss and you get a paycheck, you're working class."

their banks etc and can easily be fired, but often make millions are working class? If so, then working class mayn ot be so bad!

minority of them make that good money. The ones you hear getting those crazy bonuses are management.

Most of the traders on the floor don't make that much money...

Hell a local trader for one of the hot companies, he makes less in his first year than my hubby working at the Post Office. Granted, his potential income is much higher, but that does not mean he will necessarily make that in his life time.

The average are thrown by their bosses who make millions.

Oh and not defending them. I wish some of those kids were able to work in something else, but hey they have to pay their loan and the rent, and put food on the table like the rest of us... and a bad day... may also mean a pink slip. Now don't try to explain to them that they are working class, they will scoff at it. They are on the way out man. to become the MAN... most don't...

It is the same scam as sports... most kids will never, ever make it to the majors, but all dream huh?

I even known a first year guy who took down $350K. There really was a trough of money being thrown around before the crash. Not as easy nowadays, but a lot of people under 30 or with less than 10 years of expierence pulling in seven figures. I am sure they do not mindbeing "working" class.

As I said, the averages are thrown by the incredibly high compensation packages.

Now reality is none of these kids will ever identify with the blue collar workers who clean the offices or the floor.

And using this language would only make then chuckle and call you and me damn commies

:-)

And yes, there is a problem with the system, a serious problem, and I think it will implode, partly because of the anger in the streets.

Most of the people lose the money they spend on tickets and will never win enough to come out ahead. The idea is to keep the suckers poring money into the system, so a few win big.

The joker is that a larger number of winners of a lesser amount of money would make more sense to play the game.

Getting family supporting work in this country has become akin to a Ponzi scheme. There are a few big winners and everyone else in the system loses out.

This situation will not improve until most of the goods we purchase are manufactured in the U.S. by American workers. Then the money we spend will circulate within the U.S. giving employment to other Americans. In other words, we have to return those outsourced jobs back to the U.S. or the economy and our living standards will never improve.

at least not your central claim that the U.S. is not a first world country. In reality land, that's exactly what it's considered. And no, the U.S. doesn't actually have more in common with Mexico than Canada when it comes to standard of living, but heh, what do facts matter? Oh, and I hate to break this to you but middle class doesn't automatically exclude working class. Plumbers, for example are working class people with middle class incomes.

I have. The US is not a first world country - not by quite a long shot. Any country that doesn't have "free" universal healthcare is not a first world country. A country with an infant mortality rate not in the top 25 is not a first world country. Look at the way people are treated in the US compared to in first world countries - people are treated like scum. Go to France or Holland or even the UK (not just for a visit - but to live there for a few years) and the differences will become more and more apparent.

quite a bit of time there. My mother lives in London so I've spent quite a bit of time in Europe. You don't just get to make up what constitutes a first world country and impose it over reality. That there are differences doesn't make the U.S. a non-first world country. The experts who deal in these assessments and categorizing place the U.S. as a first world country. That you don't think it should be, just doesn't change reality.

Mexico? Kenya? I would say that the US is solidly 2nd world, where many people in the USSR were for much of the cold war. We just never hear the term "2nd world" bandied about - it's all always "1st world" or "3rd world."

If you want to consider the US to be a first world country, it must be a pretty big exception within that group. It becomes "the only first world country which lacks ". I suppose that if you want to consider the US to be a first world country there is one other first world country which has a death penalty, and that is Japan. There are just too many exceptions. Here in the UK people honestly cannot comprehend things that go on in the US, especially regarding health care - the way of life is incomprehensible. It isn't just a made up thing - the gaps between the US and, if you insist, the rest of the first world are massive. I lose sleep hoping that I'm able to get work and visas which will allow me to stay somewhere in Europe so that I don't have to go back to the US - it's way too fucked up and scary for me to think I could have a real future there unless massive changes are put in place.

You too can inform yourself of which countries are categorized as "first world". It's not a matter of my considering the U.S. a this or that; it's how those who actually do this kind of work, categorize it.

There are no hard and fast rules at play here - these terms are made up and malleable. "Second World" has basically disappeared, and I think it should be brought back because the gaps between the US and the other countries which are called "first world" are enormous in terms of the gap between the rich and poor, access to healthcare, human rights (including use of the death penalty), technological development, standard of living, infant mortality, eduction, freedom of the press, etc. We are SO far behind other countries - it's staggering.

If you don't want to use the terms in this way, that's fine. The basic point that I'm agreeing with from the OP is that most Americans need to learn and really understand that the US is not an equal in many many ways with other industrialized countries, and that the people of the US are treated far worse by their government and their employers than they would be in many other countries.

1) A corporatist state is not the same a fascist state. I agree that we're living in a corporate oligarchy, but that's not the same thing as fascism.

2) No argument there.

3) 1st, 2nd, & 3rd world status is not based upon health care, education, and housing. It's based upon the average quality of life. We, in the USA, have a pretty decent average quality of life. It could & should be better than it is for the folks on the lower end of the economic spectrum - no argument there - but that doesn't change the fact that most of us (regardless of income) are able to sleep in a warm dry place, and eat something when we're hungry.

Don't get me wrong - There's a lot of shit that we need to fix regarding health care and housing and "quality of life", but we're still (on average) better off than what you'd call "3rd world countries". I didn't grow up in Mexico, but I've been there several times and seen the palapas in which many of them live (in the east), and the broken down houses & tents that they live in (in the west/ SW).

We don't have it all figured out (not even close!), but we're not quite a 3rd world country yet. I agree that we have much to do to approach true equality, but we're not a 3rd world country. Not yet.

Benito Mussolini Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power.

Now Benito knew what he was talking about. Problem is that people automatically think... NAZI Germany when one speaks of Fascism. It has many colors and many presentations. The American version is a kinder version, with willing participants.

As to standard of living... WE USED to have a good standard of living. That is the operative word... true conversation at the line while shopping for groceries. Those bottles with the CA recyclable, they help to make the money go further. In a country with a LIVING wage, which we don't have, that doesn't happen. That my dear is the face of poverty, RIGHT THERE.

Also the outsides of poor areas may seem nice to you, and not as broken down as those of the Palapas in the West, or for that matter the dirt floors in the Ciudades Perdidas. Been there, done that, and the level of poverty, crushing poverty, and desperation is there. Just better hidden.

And yes, things like access to medical care are also indicators of whether a country is first world or not, as well as access to education, at least to the silly idiots that keep those stats at the World Bank... you know those idiots. Income is but one measure and ours has been going down every year. It is time to get out of that propaganda haze, we are not a country of middle class people but workers. There is a class war, and we are losing, partly because we're not even aware that there is one.

Who (currently) plays the role of Mussolini?

"Oligarchy" is still not the same thing as "Fascism". Study history, honored historian.

I really don't want to get into a bullshit-filled debate about semantics, but there is a real difference between the two terms that you seem to be missing.

Listen - I don't totally disagree with your conclusion, but I think that it's important to be precise.

using a term that is apropriate to the situation.

As they say, if it quacks like a duck, it waddles like a duck, it swims like a duck... I guess it is a cow.

B) You changed the subject.

C) You still haven't shown that you know the difference between "Oligarchy" and "Fascism".

Listen - We're not on opposite sides here. It occurs to me that your pride is hindering you from admitting that you may have not been correct in your OP. We're still on the same side, mind you, but your logic is sloppy.

again, if it walks like a duck, it swims like a duck, it must be an Aardvark.

Perhaps it is you who is wrong.

Let me see the marriage of state and corporate interests = Fascism according to Mussolini. We are there... yep, it is.

I'm not too proud to consider that possibility.

You have the right idea, but I still think that your 1st & 3rd points (from your OP) are flawed. Is it possible that you just don't like to be questioned?

I wasn't posting just to be a contrarian, nor was I trying to be a smartass. I just thought that an honest discussion would be interesting. Please don't take it personally.

with the definition. As to poverty in the US, it is far more spread than people truly realize, even with the happy numbers from the Department of Labor we have thousand slip into poverty every week.

I guess we're done.

I realize that there are various characteristics to fascism, but what about the notion that fascism really just represents the extreme right end of the political spectrum and that it is all about Social Darwinism? According to an early fascist theorist, that was his take on the issue. It really would explain a lot about fascism: only the strongest survive financially, only the historically dominant races of people are favored, only those at the top of the most 'fascist' political party are considered the socially acceptable elite, the most dominant military force may invade smaller nations, treat them as brutally as they wish and overthrow their governments; and the government itself only has to answer to the strongest and most powerful corporate entities. Oh, and of course with healthcare, only the strongest or wealthiest are allowed to survive.

I moved to Europe a few years ago and have been living in the UK for over two years now. The more time I spend here the more stark the differences become. I think the fact that the US is not a first world country is the single most important thing that "middle class" people need to learn about - it goes hand-in-hand with finding out that they are not middle class.

is a relief I am sure.

I wish people in this country got it. But propaganda is just amazing...

USA, USA, USA, USA... WE ARE NUMBER ONE!

No we are not... but the jingo and the need to defend the indefensible takes precedence.

I'm only in my early 30s, but I conditioned myself to almost never go to a doctor, so now that I can I rarely do. I've been once since I've lived here and it was a strange experience.

Unfortunately, I saw an awful lot of the system last month when my girlfriend was hospitalized with gall stones. She'd gone to the ER with problems a few months ago (the first time I'd seen a UK ER - they asked her name and address just to check if she was on their local database yet, and then treated her - no bills, not even an insurance card or needing to know her national insurance number) which made her go to her doctor to look into - x-rays, ultrasounds, etc. She was waiting to have an appointment with a specialist when she had another attack. So, back to the ER we went, except this time it was so bad that they admitted her to the hospital where she spent 4 days.

There was never any question of money for the hospital stay, examinations, treatment or medications (for prescribed medications from a doctor there is a nominal fee, however they can be waived for the poor). I would say that I can't imagine what that would have cost in the US, except that I know in the US she probably wouldn't have ever even been treated because she wouldn't have been able to afford insurance (doubly so because of the "pre-existing" problem she has with her hip joints).

In France I once went to a doctor's with someone - it was an emergency on a Sunday, so we had to go across town to the special Sunday clinic (they're open on Sundays on a rotating basis, as is always one pharmacy open 24 hours). That was about 20 bucks.

Earlier in the year in the Czech Republic I sprained my ankle in a bad way and had to go to the ER. Now, horror upon horrors, only one of the hospitals in the city had an ER for foreigners, unlike in the UK where anyone is treated. Since I'm not Czech I also had to pay out of pocket. For the x-rays, evaluation, bandages, crutches, etc. the bill was still under $200. What would that have cost in the US? Even with insurance?

People just have NO IDEA how backwards almost all aspects of US healthcare are. I had some inkling, but now that I've seen other countries in action, I'm astounded by what we Americans put up with.

A young kid, 23... college graduate, no insurance. He was t-boned by a taxi and was standing when we got on scene. He was holding his neck... rubbing it in a bad way. So we came over, and I started talking to him.

Before anything he told me, I don't need the ambulance... subtext I cannot afford it.

So I explained to him that we were a Red Cross Rig, he was hit pretty bad and we needed to make sure. I never asked for his insurance papers. After a good ten minutes I convinced him. We put him on full C-SPINE precs and got him on the ambulance and off to the ER we go.

They get an X-Ray... well it was a good thing, hair line fracture. So they changed our hard collar for a soft collar.

Trust me, when his parents showed they were SHOCKED that at least on our end... there was no bill. Now on the US side, I am sure there would be. We just asked, not demanded, if they could afford it, for a donation at the donation box. That was our billing department. Dad was a high end doctor... he was shocked by that.

On the bright side, I know dad could afford to pay for son's attention, on the down side, there is your pre-existing. And yes, we put up with way too much shit, because Americans don't know better.

bailout.

Yet YOU did.

So-I find this OP of yours to be very bizarre, if not total b.s. :crazy:

Now I do not expect you to get it...

By the way, I am all for the return of a MIXED ECONOMY, you know what that is>

And is this just the attack of the day?

Btw, I could give a damn about your Keynes or whoever else you want to cite to prove your point.

Why don't you just admit that those bastards on Wall Street ripped all of us off?

Then you might get some respect from me-like you used to get before you became a Bankster Bailout Cheerleader.

Until then, I will continue to post that you are full of it.

I don't need any "expert" to tell me that what we have in this country that they call "capitalism" in nothing but exploitation of the masses.

Wall Street needs to be exposed for the pyramid scheme that it is.

than a depression.

Oh and Keynes is a nobody, you are right. Why Mr. Krugman agreed with me as to why it has to be done. Where there errors made? Yes... should there be a price to pay (aka legislation to re-regulate them) absolutely. But you are willfully ignorant. Nor would you get Keynes or the cliff notes offered by Krugman either. And that my dear is willful, not because of lack of intelligence. Lack of intellectual curiosity is far worst though.

Have a good day, a good life... bye

1. If we do not live in a capitalist country...are we supposed to?

2. this really seems like splitting hairs doesnt it? though I like the sound of working class better then middle.

3. Quality is important too, canada a first world country even though there government run health care sucks? Not saying if we end up with one it will suck, but there is certain to be cons with the pros that come with it.

1. If we do not live in a capitalist country...are we supposed to?

Not necessarily, if you read the distrust the FOUNDERS had on banking and finance for example... especially Adams and Jefferson... or for that matter Adam Smith (I know a shocker)

Perhaps we should go back though to the MIXED economy of the 1950s which worked very well for everybody.

2. this really seems like splitting hairs doesn't it? though I like the sound of working class better then middle.

No it is not splitting hairs, it is being exact.

3. Quality is important too, Canada a first world country even though there government run health care sucks? Not saying if we end up with one it will suck, but there is certain to be cons with the pros that come with it.

Canadian health care has far better outcomes than American Health Care for half the cost. Canada has a very efficient system with far better health statistics. Hardly a system that sucks. That is an RNC talking point.

Oh and welcome to DU

And he's charging $8 a ticket! How dare he talk about health care or our country's socioeconomic state!? Stop him!

--> :sarcasm: <--

we lack the ability to manufacture shit here anymore. Since the global puppet masters only want us for our credit (now debt) and raw materials, they treat us like a country that is still being developed.

Our #1 export, waste paper. China then converts it into cardboard boxes in which to ship us cheap plastic shit that we snatch up from WallyWorld.

:-)

How are you doing?

· GUNS
· MEAT
· DEBT

and the OP is absolutely right. We do not live in a democracy, we are "workers for the man" , and nothing more.

Sad thing is, the RW has demonized MM to the point that a pretty significant portion of the country won't even listen to what he has to say.
Their puppetmasters tell them what to think, who to hate and what issues to fight. They are good little brownshirts.

k&r

You may reply to this post for $19.95 payable by Visa, Master Card or Paypal.

How far is too far?

You may respond to this question for $9.95 payable by Visa, Master Card or Paypal.

Rock on. :toast:

Julie

They have mistaken property for Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.

wandering helplessly through life, always getting hoodwinked by THINGS and THOUGHTS

That is, things like Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness have become commodified. Life is now something that has to be bought - you work to pay for healthcare. You must work just to have a place to live and be treated like a human being - so many things must be purchased by a person for them to be treated as a respected member of society. Liberty: look no further than "money = speech" and the role that that decision has played on how elections are run. Pursuit of Happiness: free time and leisure are also no commodities - you work and have to EARN days off from the drudgery. It's the ol' "Time is Money" - you may take all of the time in the world if you can pay for it, otherwise you can fuck off and "get a job, hippy."

:drool:

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

Hell, we are less than "citizens", now. We are nothing. Corporations define our existence.

"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power."
-Benito Mussolini

Mussolini moved toward "The Third Way," which was fascism, after concluding in World War I's wake that socialism was a failure.

http://blogs.roanoke.com/rtblogs/dancasey/2009/08/05/quote-of-the-day-benito-mussolini-on-corporatism/