Debunking Canadian Health Care Myths

http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_12523427

Myth: Taxes in Canada are extremely high, mostly because of national health care.

In actuality, taxes are nearly equal on both sides of the border. Overall, Canada's taxes are slightly higher than those in the U.S. However, Canadians are afforded many benefits for their tax dollars, even beyond health care (e.g., tax credits, family allowance, cheaper higher education), so the end result is a wash. At the end of the day, the average after-tax income of Canadian workers is equal to about 82 percent of their gross pay. In the U.S., that average is 81.9 percent.

Myth: Canada's health care system is a cumbersome bureaucracy.

The U.S. has the most bureaucratic health care system in the world. More than 31 percent of every dollar spent on health care in the U.S. goes to paperwork, overhead, CEO salaries, profits, etc. The provincial single-payer system in Canada operates with just a 1 percent overhead. Think about it. It is not necessary to spend a huge amount of money to decide who gets care and who doesn't when everybody is covered.

Myth: The Canadian system is significantly more expensive than that of the U.S.Ten percent of Canada's GDP is spent on health care for 100 percent of the population. The U.S. spends 17 percent of its GDP but 15 percent of its population has no coverage whatsoever and millions of others have inadequate coverage. In essence, the U.S. system is considerably more expensive than Canada's. Part of the reason for this is uninsured and underinsured people in the U.S. still get sick and eventually seek care. People who cannot afford care wait until advanced stages of an illness to see a doctor and then do so through emergency rooms, which cost considerably more than primary care services.

What the American taxpayer may not realize is that such care costs about $45 billion per year, and someone has to pay it. This is why insurance premiums increase every year for insured patients while co-pays and deductibles also rise rapidly.

SNIP

Other myths debunked at link:

Myth: Canada's government decides who gets health care and when they get it.
Myth: There are long waits for care, which compromise access to care.
Myth: Canadians are paying out of pocket to come to the U.S. for medical care.
Myth: Canada is a socialized health care system in which the government runs hospitals and where doctors work for the government.
Myth: There aren't enough doctors in Canada.

If I could move there tomorrow, I would.

I'm fortune enough to be Canadian and it always disturbs me the amount of misinformation that's propagated about the Canadian health care system (and other systems like Britain's NHS). Our system definitely has its faults but the vast majority of Canadians, myself included, wouldn't even think about replacing it with the current US system. The frightening thing is not just the number and pervasiveness of the myths but also that many people who really should (and possibly do) know better are among those perpetuating the myths.

Print it up an carry it around for easy debunking of the Canadian system falsehoods.

to it -- or if they're Repub lurkers.

people can rec or unrec on a whim depending on their mood. That's why I think the unrec is a useless feature.

never making a post to avoid being TS. It's a feature that was tried and has now been proven to be a failure. IMO anyway. Time to do away with it and move on.

The admins must know who they are.

A suggestion was made that there should be a minimum of posts made before allowing unrecs. I think it's a good idea.

As I had said when Unrec first started, and you could get counts as to how many unrecs an article recieves, I noticed that within minutes of posting most healthcare posts and anything talking about the public option or universal single payer quickly recieved a couple of unrecs.

...who will unrecommend anything about the benefits of a single payer system.

Since "single-payer" was taken off the table by the Democrats, they see it as encouraging an anti-Obama sentiment.

... I just gave this a tec. It was at +4. After my rec it was STILL at +4.

I HATE this unrec "feature".

What the FUCK is wrong with your post?????

It is wrong in the eyes of the stealth Republicans that wait for a chance to unrec things they don't like. They can't admit that the Canadian system is a success because that would contradict insurance industry talking points.

If you look at the life expectancy statistics, Canada is #8 and we are #50... I think that speaks volumes!

Probably has too do with the fact that expectant mothers have access to prenatal care and aren't worried to go see a doctor due to costs.

The are subtle in their arguments so they remain undetected. But they will betray themselves if watched closely.

...and no, that's not a good thing.

Claiming everything is a conspiracy theory is part of the conspiracy.

Clearly there is an organized effort to discredit alternate health care systems. This is undeniable. This effort is paid for by the insurance industry and other advocates of the status quo. No conspiracy theory, it is a conspiracy.

You are probably part of this effort or you wouldn't be challenging me as you are right now.

I point out that your comment implies a conspiracy and you conclude that I must be part of that conspiracy. That conclusion is patently false. Look up something called confirmation bias, you're stuck in it.

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You take evidence that I'm not part of this conspiracy as conclusive evidence that I am. This clearly shows that you're stuck in confirmation bias.

How do I know that you aren't a part of this conspiracy and just feigning support for reform to give yourself credibility?

avoid detection.

I definitely limit my participation in either forum partly because I'm still a bit shell-shocked from the bigotry during the primaries and inauguration debacles.

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Some people just don't want to have Universal Health Care...

'Cause then everyone would have it...

And no one would be motivated to work hard to get it...

It would no longer be a perk for the affluent...

Some people are just flat out crazy, mean or hypocritical or all of the above...

K&R

I just want to smack those idiots upside the head. Obviously teabaggers.

We can't get anything that is really close to a Canadian system on the table for consideration.

R :hi:

don't put their armies and navies into other countries.

sadly, thanks to Tony Blair, our army and navy are very much in other countries.

and implemented by noted (sarcasm on) flaming liberal (sarcasm off) Otto von Bismarck, and it was mainly so he would have a large enough supply of healthy men for his armies...

reduce our defense budget significantly without affecting our necessary capabilities.

Sebelius: Single-Payer Health Care Not In Plans

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=105442888

"...Asked if the administration's program will be drafted specifically to prevent it from evolving into a single-payer plan, Sebelius says: "I think that's very much the case, and again, if you want anybody to convince people of that, talk to the single-payer proponents who are furious that the single-payer idea is not part of the discussion."

Sebelius says such concerns are unfounded because a single-payer plan is not under consideration, and these "draconian" scenarios have muddled the conversation over the president's proposal for a public option.

"The whole idea of the public option has been difficult, in part, because some of the opposition has described it as a potential for a, you know, draconian scenario that was never part of the discussion in the first place," Sebelius says. "So, disabusing people of what is not going to happen is often difficult, because there's no tangible way to do that."


March 3, 2009

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/03/03-15

"...Last week, Conyers attended a Congressional Black Caucus meeting with President Obama at the White House.

During the meeting, Congressman Conyers, sponsor of the single payer bill in the House (HR 676), asked President Obama for an invite to the President's Marchy 5 health care summit at the White House.

Conyers said he would bring along with him two doctors - Dr. Marcia Angell and Dr. Quentin Young - to represent the majority of physicians in the United States who favor single payer...

This week, by e-mail, Conyers heard back from the White House - no invite..."


Examining the Single Payer Health Care Option: Marcia Angell Testimony
6 minutes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQNphM6xUsE

"The reason our health system is in such trouble is that it is set up to generate profits, not to provide care..."

about it, is just there available to all and sometimes we have to wait longer than we want for non critical procedures but we don't worry about bankrupting our families or whether to seek medical attention or not. I am one who had to wait for almost a year to see a top ankle doc in Toronto only to be told that if it was his ankle he would consider a second opinion in the US, but at least that was available to me and it was my choice and if a procedure could not be done here it would be covered by OHIP for treatment in the US. I asked why we had so few top notch ankle surgeons in Canada and he said many had been recruited by the US because of the pay. In the end despite my problems I would much rather have our system where all are covered rather than coverage for those that can afford it.

able to be seen without having to worry about the cost. To not even let this be part of the discussion is just shameful.

:cry:

What was the outcome with your ankle? And I wonder what the difference in salaries between Orthopedic surgeons in our two countries.


As Dr. Angell explained in the video we already spend almost twice what every other country spends.

From the video in my prior post

Dr. Marcia Angell
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQNphM6xUsE

"...It's true that there are waits for some elective procedures in some of these countries such as the UK and Canada.

But that is because they spend far less on HC than we do, if they were to put the same amount of money into their systems, as we do into ours, there would be no waits.

For them, the problem is not the system, it's the money.

For us, it's not the money, it is the system.

We already spend more than enough..."

My husband is Canadian and we lived in Canada for three years. I was shocked the first time I went to get my son's asthma medication before we were covered. Out of pocket we paid $25 for a medication that we would have had to pay $150 in the US before. It was a relief to not have to worry about copays, deductibles and premiums. Before we were covered, a trip to the doctor would cost us $40, that was it, my husband paid nothing.

When we came back here last year we had to fight Anthem BCBS to pay my son's doctor and emergency room bills. They kept claiming that they needed more medical information from us even though we sent them copies of all of our medical records going back three years three times. They were trying to use my son's asthma as a preexisting condition and only stopped the nonsense when my husband's employer threatened to walk.

Whenever I encounter people talking smack about the Canadian health care system, I tell them that they do not know what they are talking about. I tell them how nice it was to live in a place where we did not have to worry about going to the doctor, the emergency room, or about paying for expensive medications. The amount of misinformation out there is insane. I believe that this country could benefit from a similar system, but that was taken off of the table before the "debates" began. I believe that we are being steered towards a public option and, if that is going to be what we get, then I hope it is a pretty damn strong one and an opening for a single payer style system in this country. Something needs to be done because things are way out of hand with the insurance companies in this country and the suffering and death that they are allowed to get away with inflicting.

the lies the sheltered and uninformed believe in.

on mindless defense spending. Thier political leaders are no where near as corrupt or cynical as ours.
Just about every member of our legislature is under the influence of defense contractors on one level or another, be it the threat of being labeled soft on the ism of the day or flat out taking bribes.
America's fear of enemies real or imagined has put us on the brink of third world status because we squander resources while the rest of civilization is going in a different direction.
Eisenhower was right.

It's shocking how many people around here (central PA) can't stand Canada even though they know very little about it.

When I go bicycling, these are almost identical to the socks that I wear.
I wear them in honor of my Dad who was from Guelph ON. If it pisses off the locals, then that's an added bonus.

at the time of your birth, you are probably eligible for Canadian citizenship. The Canadian citizenship laws were changed back in April of this year, and first generation of a Canadian parent living abroad became Canadian citizens.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/faq/citizenship/cit-rules-faq09.asp



There were many Americans who woke up on April 17 as new dual citizens.

Sid

I'm not sure of the exact details in my Dads' case. He was drafted by the Army during WWII and I can't remember if he had to renounce his Canadian citizenship because of that or exactly what his status was.

I keep meaning to look into it, but I just haven't got to it yet.
I thought that I remembered something about if it was a situation like my Dads', Canada would consider that the same as never having renounced his citizenship and I would qualify.

Thanks for the link, I have to look into this.

So many of us are aware of what is going on in congress regarding the welfare of the people of this country. Way too many have been "purchased" by the health insurance industry and so we will never have a fair health plan in this country until that changes. We live in a neighboring state with Canada and most of us are aware of the benefits that they, the Canadians, have in their health care for everyone. We know it works well for them, and our congress knows this as well, but those $$$$'s seem to speak much louder than the voices of their constituents. So many of us call and email our reps, I like to think that there is a crack in that wall, and that our voices will be heard, I will not give up hope that we will eventually bring this country into the 21st century, even if it's kicking and screaming as we do so.

It seems the health care threads, other than the ones praising Baucus's plan, which the industry seems to like since they wrote it, all get an unusual amount of unrecs. Can't get the truth out there. It wouldn't be profitable for them.

Before this "unrec" issue was brought up again and a couple more unrecced just for spite. I think your argument is rather hollow now that we can easily calculate the number of unrecs.

So your calculations would indicate that we have 6 operatives doing the unrecs. Have you ran however you calculate this across other threads that don't have anything to do with health care, to be fair? Maybe a scientific study would put this to rest. I seldom get unrecs on my threads unless they are about health care since I am a advocate of single payer or Medicare for all.

If an article recieves a half dozen unrecs early it might bury the post long enough for something about Michael Jackson to pop up in the News again.

"Canadian born, US educated, US employed clinical psychologist champions the system she left over the system she continues to benefit from. Hmmm......If such a good education and health care system up there...I wonder how she's found herself practicing here for 17 years? Good "straw man" and conjecture article for the already convinced."

Here's what he posted in the "Comments" section:

"This is hilarious. A clinical psychologist (educated and employed through our "flawed and expensive system") practices for 17 years in the U.S. and champions the system she moved away from as the ideal one for providers and patients alike. Tell me Doc, how does one "work in the private sector and have all their money come from the public sector" without being a defacto public sector employee? How does a hospital garner all their funds from the government and have a truly "private" board of directors...? Sounds like with such an ideal system, she may be better to practice there....if anything she had to say held water."

to various articles on the benefits of single-payer. Sort of a RW version of google, but one that supplies political talking points (

Everyone there loved the health care system. I have never been able to really grasp why the Repubs are always saying how bad it is. I never heard a harsh word about it the whole time I was there.

Well, let me back up a bit. The only ones who had some harsh words about it were Americans that were there. They had to pay for any medical visits. It wasn't free to non-citizens or people without their green card or whatever they call it there.

This is probably a good time to re-post this amazing video of Dennis Kucinich kicking the STRAW out of Dr. David Gratzer on HMO falsehoods about the Canadian medical system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DII7v8yeRjs


Gratzer is a psychiatrist originally from Canada. He got his M.D. in Manitoba, but was making a good living writing anti-Canadian health care system books, supported by right-wing think tanks like the Fraser Institute and the Manhattan Institute since before he was even a medical student.

Here's a piece of advice for aspiring Canadian medical students. If you're willing to say nasty things about the Canadian medical system for money, you'll never starve. There will always be a half dozen "think tanks" in the U.S. who'll pay you top dollar to go around badmouthing the Canadian health care system at Congressional hearings. That's how Gratzer, who's in his early 30s, and has never published any research articles, or done anything significant in the medical field managed to become a "Senior Fellow" at the Manhattan Institute.